...in your face...truth?

1. 65

   SparklingJewelposted 13 years ago

   truth or spin?
   
   so tell me...what is another way to spin this quote...?
   
   
   http://www.breitbart.tv/shocking-audio- … the-people

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      starme77posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Well , I dont think it needs a spin , the video explains it exactly how it is

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   Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago

   another way would be for the libs to say it was taken out of context.
   
   And without hearing the whole discussion, I myself can't say that's not the case.
   
   But chances are, since it's a apparently a liberal Democrat who's speaking, then it's most likely just what it says-----openly touting the new Administration's ability to "control the people".

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   Madame Xposted 13 years ago

   Seems clear enough to me.

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   habeeposted 13 years ago

   Hmmm...kinda scary to me!

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   thooghunposted 13 years ago

   For those of us who can't or won't see the video:
   
   "Let me remind you this [Americans allegedly dying because of lack of universal health care] has been going on for years. We are bringing it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you’re going to pass legislation that will cover 300 [million] American people in different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people"
   
   I'm not sayings he's wrong, but lets be honest, this is subjective and speculative. His is a predication, which needs some backing with facts in order for me to take seriously.
   
   How exactly is Obamacare going to "control the people"?

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      Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      "How exactly is Obamacare going to "control the people"?"
      
      
      When you force someone to do something, isn't that controlling him?

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         thooghunposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Well yes, but by that token any form of taxation is a form of control. Are there any benefits you believe are worth paying for?

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            Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, I would happily pay for the 'benefit' of not being told - at the point of a gun - that I have to buy something from a private company.

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               Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Isn't that extortion?

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               Poppa Bluesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               http://www.freedomslighthouse.com/2009/ … -free.html

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      Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      If you don't buy healthcare insurance under this bill, you are fined for not paying your "taxes". If you don't pay your taxes, you go to jail.
      
      Laws do control people. If you break them there are consequences.

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         Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         But you are not paying a 'tax,' you are being forced to purchase something from a private company. This far overreaches the powers of the Congress.

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            Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, but they may define it that way to get around it's Constitutionality.

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               Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               They will certainly try.

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               Ghost32posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Exactly.
               
               With ten thousand and two cute little sneak-a-tax like the 10% goodie on tanning salons.  To pay for all that melanoma care?

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   SparklingJewelposted 13 years ago

   actually the tax issue is on the agenda of the people who believe in the Constitution...it will be changed, too, one day, to a flat tax or consumption tax or something of that sort...I need to get more informational knowledge

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   mikelongposted 13 years ago

   I'd like to hear the whole quotation.. Yet, "the people" are controlled all the time....through law, through media influence..all manner of control mechanisms are in operation in our society.... 
   
   However, an individual is only as controlled by outside influences as he or she wishes to be...at least to a large degree....
   
   Sab....auto insurance is the law....  And while people will argue that "driving is not a  requirement"...I argue otherwise... For millions of people in this nation, if they could not drive themselves for employment, they would be unemployed....
   
   I look to the city planners that, in Los Angeles, build huge housing developments an hour and a half to two hours away from the job hub in L.A. itself...without being able to drive life would be near impossible...if not beyond this threshold...
   
   The government, at a variety of levels, already mandates many things....and to balk at insuring one's own body....which was a relatively free gift as opposed to the needed and expensive car...is real funny...
   
   If my analogy to cars is wrong, I think I know a lot of government employees who are driving around in cars financed by tax dollars....the cars that the state mandates that you pay for... Pull this plug? I'm not sure how many of these officials really need such a privilege..

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      Poppa Bluesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes you're correct. All Government is FORCE. That is why the constitution was created to LIMIT the power of the federal government. Unfortunately the government continues to expand its powers beyond those limits and the health care bill that was just passed into law is a gross violation of those limits and a threat to the freedom of Americans.

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      Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      " "the people" are controlled all the time....through law, through media influence..all manner of control mechanisms are in operation in our society.... 
      
      However, an individual is only as controlled by outside influences as he or she wishes to be..."
      
      
      You contradict yourself.

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      Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      ".auto insurance is the law....  And while people will argue that "driving is not a  requirement"...I argue otherwise... "
      
      Oh? So if you didn't buy a car you would be fined by the government and potentially jailed? Really?

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      TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I listened to the whole thing. His point was govt. control of the people. it cannot be twisted to anything else.
      
      Thats what he said... and thats what he meant.

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   Poppa Bluesposted 13 years ago

   It's always been about power and control though never more so than with this, the Obama administration. Now the States will challenge the constitutionality of the law in federal court, but why would anyone expect the federal court to rule against the government, in effect ruling against itself?
   
   What the states should do is simply "nullify" the law. After all it is the states that created the federal government by compact among themselves, the constitution, so only the States should decide if the government they created is exceeding the limits of their power.

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   mikelongposted 13 years ago

   So poppa, are you saying that the American courts have never ruled American laws unconstitutional?
   
   Slow down......

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      Poppa Bluesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Nope, I'm not saying that, but I am saying in this case which will involve use of the commerce clause, the Supreme Court will side with the Federal government and that it would be better for the States to simply nullify the law.

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    mikelongposted 13 years ago

    Individuals and groups of people are "FORCE" Poppa......which is why our government exists...
    
    Unlike others, based off divine right or privilege, or bloodline aristocracy, we are supposed to be a society who are ruled by our own selves through mechanisms that enable society as a whole to engage in debate and decision-making....and I think, while we have problems, our society is better today than it was in Jefferson's, or in Lincoln's, either Roosevelt's, or George W. Bush's.... and we will continue to progress..
    
    For all the "crime" of illegal aliens...violent crime is down...  While there are spikes, we all know that poverty and tensions cause people to behave in many different, and sometimes destructive, ways....
    
    
    When our nation was of thirteen little states along the eastern seaboard...with a tiny, little population and very few needs..relative to today one could talk of limited government....but if I remember correctly...this was all mostly talk...for with the expansion of this nation, all levels of government expanded...and more calls for federal recognition and assistance were issued..enabling the creation of cities like Los Angeles even... 
    
    People talk, but the nation evolves another way based on reality....our nation is passed infancy, and like people, cannot return to its perceived simplicity...
    
    Just the regulatory agencies alone needed to ensure constitutional laws are followed, from labor rights to varying forms of discrimination....this all costs money... The FDA hopefully checking our food for problems.......money....  The FBI (which didn't exist)...the CIA....the NSA....the School of the Americas..What would our founding fathers say about the power of these organizations?
    
    Are you arguing to check these huge spenders? 
    
    We live in a world that cannot be compared to the past....we have come a long way, my friend.... Become a force yourself and you will care less about the forces working around you....you can even become empowered to use them for yourself..

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       Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       "....the School of the Americas.."
       
       What? What's that?! What amazing secret knowledge you have!

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          Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          It is a school to train third-world terrorists

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             Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Shhhhh! The little fella thinks no one else has ever heard of it! Don't tell him about Santa Clause.

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    JWestCattleposted 13 years ago

    Mikelong says "People talk, but the nation evolves another way based on reality....our nation is passed infancy, and like people, cannot return to its perceived simplicity..."
    
    Yes it can return to that perceived simplicity - many nations have risen only to fall, and the current path of this country is a slide down and down.  Not only does the Obama administration want to control everyone of us, the United Nations wants the same.  And this control has much to do with redistribution of the wealth of America, and health care reform is just a tool in the big liberal box, an effective tool, a new IRS tool.  Health care reform is needed -- this bill was not -- this bill is about command and control.
    
    No one questions the need for health care reform.  Just not this bull of a bill.  Pelosi was pathetic in her floor speech of simpering and stuttering crap about the health care bill being consistent with the Constitution's language in regard to "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness". 
    
    No doubt the Dems have already worked out their legal argument for this health care tax, perhaps it is the "life" word, some twisted argument that allows them to tax you for your 'life'.
    
    And already it has been suggested that we will find ourselves paying a Federal Sales Tax within the year to pay for the medical care of all those folks who will qualify for full government subsidy of their health care.  I foresee many people just quitting their jobs, why not?  Their neighbor will then pay their health premiums.

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    mikelongposted 13 years ago

    To Sab/TK...a lot of the obvious seems to be secret...
    
    Regardless...what I said is in some way a contradiction...but not in the way I implied it...
    
    There are control mechanisms that shape our society...but the degree to which an individual is consciously controlled and how it shapes his/her overall perception is something else...
    
    There are other penalties that one pays Sab....
    
    Look at the history of mass transit in Los Angeles.........in its public and private forms...and then we can talk about the penalties of not being able to drive..official and other..
    
    West...if people stopped working they would get kicked out of their homes/apartments/rentals....their property would be repossessed.... My brother did this kind of thing for a living...taking back stuff from people who couldn't pay their bills...
    
    The nature of our society today and human nature motivates working...and immigrants spur our economy...that has been true in each incoming wave....societal changes like urbanization have done the same...but these developments necessitated more government involvement..
    
    We shall see what the effects of this bill are...and I am glad this ongoing study exists...

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    Poppa Bluesposted 13 years ago

    "The nature of our society today and human nature motivates working...and immigrants spur our economy...that has been true in each incoming wave....societal changes like urbanization have done the same...but these developments necessitated more government involvement.."
    
    No, I don't think so. That's what government would have you believe, but often they aren't the solution at all but the problem!
    
    Our government, our federal government, has one goal, to protect our individual freedom. That should be the first question Congress asks themselves before they enact any law, "Does this bill impinge individual freedom?" If they can honestly answer no, then they have done their job.

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    mikelongposted 13 years ago

    Poppa....how can people purchase their iphones?  How will they be able to keep texting while driving without cash at a high rate..and still pay rent, food, and everything else?
    
    Our problem is that we have too few jobs...not too many not willing to work...
    
    Regarding the developent of LA model that I put forward....I look at the San Fernando Valley alone...before subdivision there was very little purpose for government on the national or even state level...but since, beginning with the GI housing subsidies...have been required ever since.... 
    
    To protect individual freedom, any entity has a huge role to fill....
    
    Concerning "individual freedom"....it all depends on what the "freedom" is and for whom.....
    
    This health care bill has issues that have to be addressed....and if they are not,there will be huge drive to put people in office that cann ammend it for the better...I have confidence in this...

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       JWestCattleposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       You seem to equate freedom with social programs, perhaps that is the key difference between proponents of true Democracy and those of a Socialist mind.
       
       And by the way, throughout our history the issue of immigrant labor displacing the people already here has been one of political and economic importance. Chinese coolies came here in waves and displaced American workers and discouraged immigration from other countries, as they would work for so much less, even "less than the Irish" -- our government knuckled under to the Chinese then, just as they do now to just about every country on the planet.  Are we supposed to protect the "individual freedom" of anyone landing their feet on our soil by way of social programs?
       
       You'll be happy with the Cap and Trade bill, it devotes a massive amount of money to new housing subsidies.  My parents worked their tails off, my Grandmother was proud of getting the spot at the front door of the mill because she was such a good spinner, my Grandmother picked cotton alongside her sharecropper father. 
       
       We don't need more social programs to provide "individual freedom".  People need to get off their behinds and make their life what they want it to be.  Some will succeed, some will fail, that's the nature of life.

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          Poppa Bluesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I agree. individual freedom is about being left alone, by government, to pursue happiness. It's not a guarantee to happiness, or housing, or food, or a job, or an education, or a car, or health care or anything else. YOU have a responsibility, to educate yourself, to be productive and acquire the necessary wealth to live and pursue your dreams, to cover your health and plan for your old age. All that we require of government is to create, or preserve the environment that provides us all the opportunity to be prosperous. That means less government regulation, less government interference in our lives and less taxes!

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    mikelongposted 13 years ago

    "Chinese coolies came here in waves and displaced American workers and discouraged immigration from other countries."
    
    Yes they were....on the railroad, and on the Southern former plantation....how many know that Chinese were brought in to give Southern agriculture a non-black alternative....nice, right?
    
    Displacing American workers....so you recognize that there have been enough workers here...I am glad that you bring this up...and find it interesting how this major point becomes a small few words in your larger statement....
    
    How much Chinese immigration was illegal? 
    
    It was quite extensive.....
    
    West, I don't know how describing the evolution of the United States in the scope of governmental growth relates to my personal views....
    
    In a true democracy there is the presumption of equality....and the United States does not hold that title....we may be endeavoring towards it....perhaps...but we are nowhere near the goal that "Freedom" and "democracy" imply...
    
    Socialism is an economic system...democracies can be socialist..
    
    Am I a socialist?  No...
    
    I believe that there should be a melding between social and capital ideas...
    
    I equate, however, the government subsidizing of corporate interests to social programs... I see a war machine of world conquest proportions...and I see the state of California...with the nation's highest population of millionaires/billionaires...and I see "no money"...I see people trying to close my sister's school, where she teaches 2nd and 3rd grade after turning it around and making it the model campus for the Richmond District...that has only recently emerged from bankruptcy...and services a largely immigrant population...
    
    I see kids in private school here in Los Angeles who study for the SAT's in school...and I see youth in public school who's primary goal is the CAHSEE exam...which private school youth are exempted from...
    
    I see the tutoring program that I worth through as a valuable "social program" that enables youth to discover what "freedom" means...through the developing of their minds...  For these youth, there is no money for their families to get such services....and otherwise they will be left behind...
    
    I have no problem with supporting such government sponsored efforts....because a democracy requires an intelligent, cognizant populace....right?
    
    I do agree with the Cap and Trade....and see what it will do for small American investors like my father, who's lives will dramatically change for the better as companies like QTWW grow...
    
    People are off their behinds....one of my youth's caregiver had a heart attack a couple weeks ago...she's working three jobs just to keep her apartment and take care of her kids...She was working some days 24 hours through these different employers...
    
    My brother is an electrician...and the project he was working on, funded through the government, ended...and now he is on unemployment.... He wants work.... he is here on his ass because there is nothing available....
    
    I am working two jobs now.....and I am not making enough to afford to live independently....and I am nearly full-time...
    
    People are working, and want to work......they want to have more businesses here hiring and paying a living, human paycheck...
    
    We have youth graduating by the millions every year......and very little for them....
    
    The military is looking better and better all the time....which is nice for those who like aggressive uses of American military power and greater federal budget spending on defense....but that means that a greater GI Bill and VA cost will be coming...which are of course government social programs.....
    
    So...either way....we will pay...

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       Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       "how many know that..."
       
       
       
       
       someone wants another gold star and a pat on the head...

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       Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       "and I am not making enough to afford to live independently...."
       
       
       Meaning...?

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    mikelongposted 13 years ago

    Sab---> Posting as little as he can in as many posts as possible....I think he's more worried about his rank on the Poli-sci post board than putting out actual thought...
    
    You win the useless award again...no contest..

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       Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Are you...living at home with your parents...?
       
       
       Just curious.

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    probafixposted 13 years ago

    Ya what i m see on my face...

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    mikelongposted 13 years ago

    Well Poppa.... How does the government "create and preserve the environment that provides as all the opportunity to be prosperous?"
    
    What if you are a youth, and your parents "individual freedom" includes abusing you.....
    
    Looks like government is going to have to step in and "create and preserve"...like you mention...
    
    And when said youth become wards of the state (which involves massive amounts of money and a bureaucracy to manage and all kinds of government oversight into private lives), they will get services, whether tutoring like I provide (free of charge for the youth and caregivers), or psychological and other services.....this increases your taxes...
    
    Foster youth alone make up one of the largest, if not highest, pool of people who end up in the military, homeless, with drug abuse problems, and/or in prison-jail...
    
    Sometimes the development of individual freedom necessitates government interaction....because the "private" sphere has failed....because the "individual freedom" of parents to neglect their children causes failure.... There are limits to the individual, as well as to freedom...
    
    The government of the United States has regulated happiness, and has enabled food, jobs, and housing for people ever since it was founded.....and only to selective populations...the Homestead Act....2.4 million home loans backed by the government after World War 2....another 1.5 million following the Korean War....and then I look to the GI Bill benefits of today.... If this isn't the government guaranteeing housing, happiness, jobs, and food, I don't know what to call it..
    
    During the Great Depression, the government selectively aided its population...ensuring jobs, or trying to, for unemployed whites, while ignoring African Americans, and kicking Mexican Americans out of the country....the Federal Writers Project is a perfect example..... These white professionals would have been homeless and without anything had the government not stepped in....and not only give them a job...which enabled them to eat and stay in their homes, but it also enabled the creation of the first national travel guides that brought development, money, and recognition to other parts of the nation that weren't widely known...and providing government sponsored advertising for businesses in each area....
    
    Reality...
    
    If we were living in an agricultural society where people overall had land for themselves....then we could use government less....like my example relating the the San Fernando Valley prior to subdivision...
    
    There are places that the government needs to withdraw from....and I'm glad to see that discrimination against homosexuals in the military is finally backing off.....
    
    Poppa...you are against the government's regulation of personal gender expression, correct?

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       Poppa Bluesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       The best way for government to foster such an environment is to minimize regulation and taxes. I'm not advocating no government and no taxes. Obviously for government to be successful to this end they need funding. Hence security is paramount, particularly of our borders from invaders like those that flew planes into our buildings. We also need fair trade, not just free trade which means if we are going to subject American business to certain labor and environmental laws then we need to hold foreign governments to the same standards or tax their good accordingly.
       
       I have no problem offering benefits to our men and women in our military who are willing to sacrifice their lives to protect our freedom.

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    mikelongposted 13 years ago

    Mason...can you post the link please?

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    SparklingJewelposted 13 years ago

    I saw this guys response to his "mistake", but haven't read it yet...anybody else see it and read it?

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    habeeposted 13 years ago

    When I go to the tanning bed now, my husband says I'm going to get my "Obama tan" because of the tanning tax. Wonder if they'll figure out how to tax the sunshine??

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