And also to those who claim liberals don't argue with statistics:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/opini … ref=global
The New York Times?
About as believable as Barack Hussein Obama
Please point out one point in that article that is unattributed, or that you are able to prove a lie. That is, if you have read it. That is, if your reading level is up to that of the times.
No I didn't read it, I prefer unbiased news that is truthful, I know you want to delude yourself with nonsense but I don't! My reading level is beyond the Times, too bad yours isn't.
He asked you to give facts that show that the statistics in article are lies. Instead you just decided to insult him and really didn't say anything to prove any point except that you are the one who's delusional. I will repeat his same request. Point out an independent statistical data that contradicts the ones that this article pointed out. And say something of value for once.
Isnt Glenn Beck on your Christmas card list
The Republician plan was scored by the CBO today. It came in at 61 billion!
Regulatory reforms in the small group and nongroup markets, including
establishing AHPs and individual membership associations, and allowing
states to establish interstate compacts with a unified regulatory structure;
A State Innovations grant program to provide federal payments to states that
achieve specified reductions in the number of uninsured individuals or in the
premiums for small group or individually purchased policies; 1
Federal funding for states to use for high-risk pools in the individual
insurance market and reinsurance programs in the small group market; and
Changes to health savings accounts (HSAs) to allow funds in them to be
used to pay premiums under certain circumstances, to make net contributions
to HSAs eligible for the saver’s credit, and to provide a 60-day grace period
for medical expenses incurred prior to the establishment of an HSA.
All double speak to throw the responsiblity on the individual states and worse yet to create more bureaucracy to manage and collect premiums. It mandates nothing and creates another delay in providing services to those who need it. Really, another program that allows you to save tax free money for healthcare you can't possibly save enough for. Rehashed McCain crap.
Read the constitution. The federal government serves at the pleasure of the states and the people. The federal government does not have the authority to mandate ANYTHING, nor should it! The republican plan will do much to actually lower the costs of premiums and it will do so at a much lower cost!
Once again you think that the well intended and underfunded state governments should jump at this. It has no initiative other than creating a temporary patch that can't possibly be funded. A whole lot of individual programs set up to achieve affordable healthcare and duplicating bureaucracy in states and have that somehow lower costs? The federal government mandates plenty of things such as:
DOT – Department of Transportation
FAA – Airline Industry
FTA – Transit
RSPA – Pipeline
FRA – Railroad
USCG – Coast Guard/Merchant Marine
FMCSA – Federal Motor Carriers.
So don't tell me that this can't be legal because it is against the constitution. This is not just a bad idea, it is no idea.
Well of course you're wrong and we can go back and forth on this. The CBO says the Republician plan will lower the deficit. Admitedly it will not insure many more people BUT it doesn't FORCE people to do anything against their will, like the democrats do. The democrat plan forces ME to accept the government as my benefactor and health care decider! That's not constitutional, permissible, or desireable. The powers of Congress are clearly spelled out in Article 1 Section 8 of the constitution, they can do no more than what is there period.
Now you and your like minded progressive friends might them to do more and you may all believe they should and that it is right and within their power to do so, but, you'd all be wrong at least legally speaking.
I wonder why the democrats and other socialists minded folks don't just move to Cuba? You can all be well taken care of there by the government. I mean I can understand if you hate freedom, that's your choice but why force your philosophy on the rest of us?
You really don't understand or respect the democratic process, do you? Maybe you would feel more comfortable in Cuba.
Oh on the contrary I do! What I don't understand is how a political party that espouses government control over individuals can even exist let alone garner any power in the electorate! Perhaps if they were honest and changed their name to the communist party they wouldn't do so well.
But that's what the democrats are all about isn't it? Rebranding. Pelosi doesn't want to call it the "Public" option because the public might think they are the ones paying for it so let's call it the "consumer" option. It's not the "war on terror" it's the "overseas contingent operation". It's not big pharma "lobbyists" that cut a secret back room deal on healthcare with Obama, it's "stakeholders".
It seems your issue is not really with terminology but the fact that a majority of Americans voted for the Democratic platform - which was perfectly clear about including health care insurance reform - and that Obama and Congress are actually doing what they said they would do.
All I can really say is, "better luck next time."
Just because the majority voted for democrats, and just because they ran on a platform that included heath care reform, that doesn't give them the power to ignore the constitution. Remember republican and democrat has taken an oath to uphold the constitution and I expect them to do so, which means they can NOT MANDATE citizens to buy ANYTHING!
Name one thing. You can't, because you're wrong!
DOT – Department of Transportation
FAA – Airline Industry
FTA – Transit
RSPA – Pipeline
FRA – Railroad
USCG – Coast Guard/Merchant Marine
FMCSA – Federal Motor Carriers.
If you want more just type federal Government mandated programs into your search bar. Aw come on you can do it.
What??? I'm not forced to buy that!!! LOL! Come on get real!!
Guess what it comes from your taxes just as the health care will. Do you know how these things work?
Aparently YOU don't know how it works. Have you even bothered to read the bill? You must BUY insurance, if you don't YOU ARE FINED! That's very different than collecting a tax and administering a gov agency!
I guess you have not heard of the public option. This can be administered through your payroll taxes.
The bottom line is I don't have a choice!!! Unconstitutional!
I guess you don't want to get with the program and help others. Is it the me first and only that gets in the way. I don't know about you but I was always taught that America gained it's strength through uniting in a cause through a democratic republic and that the majority made the decisions for all of us. I guess that is a bunch of socialist crap too.
If you are not a part of the solution you are part of the problem in this case. Just say no is not working anymore and if you wish to hide behind your interpretations of the constitution then I am glad you don't have a choice as you say.
Wow, you just did a variation of Bush's "if you're not with us you're against us" line.
Who'd have ever thunk it?
Have you ever read the bible? It is a good source for wisdom and other quotable sayings.
What?! You're mixing bible quotes to support public policy? Uh oh, watch it rhamson, someone might think you're one of those horrible conservatives.
I like the Joe Pesci line from the movie Goodfellows. "Do I amuse you?"
Then I am glad I can put a smile on your face. Not easy in here.
No. But you might mix it up a little. Life isn't all politics.
No it isn't but it does get a spirited debate going. Wouldn't you agree?
I guess if you're always looking for a debate. By all means.
I am not always looking for anything. I enjoy the exchange of ideas and opinions that this forum and the people on it give me.
That's fine but I've noticed that you only seem to join the political stuff. And you haven't written a hub. And you can exchange ideas and opinions without debate. That's all I'm saying.
Anyway, have at it!
Yes I'm all about me! LOL! Why do you say that?I'm not against helping people. I believe we should all help our fellow humans. You on the otherhand would rather just give your money to the governemnt and let them "take care of it". Why? Is it because you can't be bothered?
It certainly can't be because the government is efficient or does a good job...
Post office- broke
Am Track- broke
Oh and yes, I am hiding behind my interpetations of the constitution... now if only we could get congress to read it and perhaps even honor their oath of office.
You are better when you stick to the subject rather than jumping all over the place. It's like trying to hit a moving target with you. Your problem with government has bled over into every argument you make and when that is explained or shown a falacy you jump to another unrelated topic. You really must channel your anger and concentrate on some solutions rather than shooting down all possibility.
Oh and by the way, all of the cases you cite in your analysis of being broke are due to inflation and rising costs associated with more than just mismanagement. Look it up. You may learn something.
Inflation??? LOL!!! Inflation has been benign for decades!!! Don't worry though, Obama is going to change that. Under his administration the money supply has expanded 120%!!! Unprecedented!
Was that a shot from the bow or the stern? I can't tell, he's all over the place. I forgot to mention that you also include Obama in many of your misdirected attacks. My fault.
I wonder what the do nothing philosophy approach would do in this situation. Oh maybe a world depression and unfathonable inflation. Let everyone fail and damn the government because they caused the collapse is also a poplular tact to take by those who hate the government. Let's disband the government and go back to states rights. That way nobody but my neighbor can hold me accountable. Wait a minute I won't have a neighbor because I will have lost my house. I could go on forever with all the misdirected theories and crazy implications you offer but the bottom line is if you think the congress is not upholding their oath then vote them out or indict them. You will have just as much luck doing that as you will convincing people the sky is falling.
I agree with the fact that they shouldn't mandate anything but I do believe we need a real public option to combat the price gouging and benefit denying and cutting of the insurance industry
What you're asking for is government run health insurance. We alrady have that, it's called medicare and it's broke.
In fact, I'd be willing to bet that because the politicians (republicans and democrats) are so afraid to make the necessary cuts to medicare and/or raise taxes that they invented this huge health care bill to provide cover just so they can do both!
By the way, the big bad insurance companies profit last year was no more than 4%. Not exactly a windfall, especially compared to Microsoft's 24% profit.
Here's another thought, MA insures 98% of their population and doesn't have government insurance.
Given government's record for managing anything, (see the above posts) why would you want them to manage your health care?
Was the CEO and Agent compensation included in their profit estimates?
Great for Massachusetts! Maybe they should give some ideas on how to fix the system. But we need some other numbers: what is the median income there? How effective is their system? Do anybody file for bankruptcy because of medical bills? Do anybody get denied treatment due to preexisting conditions? How high are their deductibles and what are their lifetime limits?
Yes, there is mismanagement in the government but a lot of it is due to accountability issues and them looking out too much for other interests which are not those of the majority of the people.
All these things can be fixed.
No. Profits don't include individual compensation but that is certainly included in the cost of insurance as it would be with a government plan.
There are some issues with the MA plan. Currently the costs are rising faster than the national average and they are exceeding their estimates by such a large amount that they are now being forced to ration care, a common criticism of the democrat plan.
Maybe those things could be fixed, but they never have and I doubt they ever will.
Oh, for God's sake, the Constitution is violated all the time and the Right is often the one behind it. DOMA? A violation of the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution. The Patriot Act? Allows searching and surveillance without a warrant. Both vociferously supported by "conservatives" who have argued the suspension of certain parts of the Constitution is fine with them...provided it placates the paranoias they're guilty of.
Please, I have no interest in hearing conservatives work themselves up in a lather over mandating purchase of health insurance when 99.9% of them will end up being beneficiaries of it themselves.
What's DOMA? And I was very much opposed to the Patriot act as were many conservatives, republicans, and democrats. (Obama voted for it and lobbied to continue it).
99.9%? Now you're just making stuff up! Rest assured, Congress, and the unions will be exempt from the current legislation. Yet no one wonders why something that is so good for the rest of us isn't good enough for those passing the legislation...things that make you go hmmmm
When was DOMA enacted? What president signed it? What was his position on DOMA at the time he signed it?
Senate vote: 85-14
House vote: 342-67
signed into law by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996.
In a June 1996 interview in the gay and lesbian magazine The Advocate, Clinton said: "I remain opposed to same-sex marriage. I believe marriage is an institution for the union of a man and a woman. This has been my long-standing position, and it is not being reviewed or reconsidered."
In 2009, Clinton changed his view some what by saying that the issue was not a federal one, but one of the states.
The Patriot Act:
Senate vote: 98-1
House vote: 357-66
re-authorization of the Patriot Act:
Senate vote: 89-10-1
House vote: 280-138
On the Patriot Act, both parties agreed with it in principal, it was the details that concerned some D's and R's.
I stated all this to illustrate that you are incorrect when you assume that these ideas were soley conservative ideas.
He doesn't? Practically all Republicans are against this. A LARGE number of Democrats, even liberal democrats are against this. It would appear that Congress doesn't understand the democratic process. Its simple, read and understand the legislation, listen to the will of the people and vote accordingly. Based on the numbers in congress you would think this health care bill would be a slam dunk....why hasn't this bill been passed already then?
Would you be so kind as to point out where you got your information from against any Federal Mandates.
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
"Admitedly it will not insure many more people" Why entertain the exercise if this is the result? Mind you that the person sponsoring this bill you promote thinks that cow farts are more damaging to the environment than cars and industry are. Please label me some more as I think it really adds to your argument.
The healthcare plan is nothing like the universal healthcare of most countries.
It's like comparing apples to oranges. This new healthcare plan would be full of delays, waits and stuck in paperwork hell.
I would think that our healthcare rank might even DECLINE in the ranks if this is passed.
You can't compare universal healthcare to what this bill is.
Because European healthcare is universal without deductibles or anything like that. This new bill still has American buying medical insurance and leaves out 11 million people.
Europeans don't have to pay for insurance at all. Medical care is included with their taxes.
There is no way we could ever have anything like that and to compare the two isn't possible.
Europe isn't a country. There are many different systems.
The Swiss system *does* require people to pick from among private insurers. They did have a public option for a long time, but recently phased it out after it did its job of "disciplining" (reining in costs) among the private insurers.
The Swiss system also performs quite a bit better than our system and other European systems, and costs quite a bit less than ours.
And anything even remotely approaching any of the other European-type systems wasn't going to be possible with the Republicans digging in their heels against any change to the status quo whatsoever. What's being discussed now is a compromise.
Obama can't propose universal healthcare now because Republicans would never have it. That's democracy (despite all the warnings we hear about communism and fascism). However, the plan is a step in the right direction.
Just to let you know though, Europe isn't always heaven... I live in Italy and I'll just say that inefficiency is no foreign concept. And it's not free, taxes are higher here. I believe that healthcare is a human right that should be available to everyone and believe that the Italian system is superior to the American one because it takes this for granted. However, we have to adjust our system based on the USA, not some mythical utopia in Europe.
I think you answered your own question with that post from the constitution.
If you want to now debate global warming too that's fine. Apparently PETA believes meat causes more co2 emissions and your buddy Al Gore also believes meat is a problem.
Personally I believe Global Warming is yet another lie that this administration is using to further oppress the American people under the thumb of socialism....for our own good of course!! Because let's face it, we aren't smart enough to make wise choices for ourselves!
"The federal government serves at the pleasure of the states and the people. The federal government does not have the authority to mandate ANYTHING, nor should it!" Where does it show me your point in the constitution?. I guess you are reading something into it.
I guess cow farts is the answer. Geesh. When confronted with the facts you have a tendency to make things up. You really should get off your soap box and catch up on current events.
I don't know what your asking! The powers that congress has you posted. That's their powers and those powers are granted TO congress BY the states. Anything power NOT granted to the federal government belongs to the states OR the people. Do you see anything that says Congress can mandate citizens to buy insurance? I don't!
Anything power NOT granted to the federal government belongs to the states OR the people. Do you see anything that says Congress can mandate citizens to buy insurance? I don't!
I am against any kind of law that forces anyone to have to buy insurance. This will cause more problems with higher rate increases.
And as far as the constitution...for some reason the Congress believes they are doing the part of the Constitution that is For The People!
People have pushed for Congress to "force everyone to pay there own health bills." "Don't allow my tax dollars to pay for poor people's bills."
I make no excuses for those in financial distress, either by choice or unpreventable situations, But...the ones that screamed the loudest about tax dollar waste on health care and free government programs (and I did my part in this also)set this mess in motion. We were heard and now have allowed Congress to take this issue of Health Insurance and turn it into what it is today. Congress and the Health Industry has used us for their own agenda!
The end result I fear is the Health and Insurance Industry will come out as the "Big Bread Winner" when all is said and done. All of us will pay higher taxes and health bills.
I hope I will be proven wrong on this, but can see this as a possibility with ALL the health reform bills out there, whether Democrat or Republican. They will cover their butts! They will receive compensation for whichever way they vote.
No it doesn't. It forces people who don't buy insurance now, most of whom are relatively young and healthy, to start paying into a plan that they will eventually need to draw from. It should lower premiums, not raise them, by lowering the average per capita health costs of those covered.
"Should" is the keyword to what you are saying. That same claim was made in Arkansas when it became law everyone had to purchase Auto Insurance. It is now way higher and I know mine rises every premium renewal. There will be excuses made by the Industry to raise rates.
Agreed...but do what really helps, go after price gouging of services, Health Industry spending waste and refusing coverages. Hit the top people of the Indusrty. Fix it there first and see how it can lower costs.
What you say sounds good and makes sense. But would it not require government intervention to accomplish this? And if so is the control gained from the exercise that of government control anyway? The other thing that adds to the mess is that if you remove all the fat from the private insurance providers that subvert these practices with more expense, where will the profit for them exist if not in all the mismanagement? A clean break is needed and sure mismanagement will occur as with any bureaucratic system. But the gain will be better for us in the long run.
You are right, it would take a governement step-in to stop what is occurring. Is it right? It shouldn't be...but what will it take, sure will not be from the willingness of the Health Industry to help Americans.
*Being distracted by breaking news on TV...will come back here later.
How are we required to pay Social Security taxes or Federal Medicare or Federal Unemployment. Are these optional? You are reading something that is not there. While it does not state that they can it also does not state that they can't. Semantics.
If you want to split hairs then maybe you should chew on this for awhile."The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
Why do we always fall into this unproductive bickering between Republican and Democrat. Aren't we all Americans. I'm not very happy about the current public option they're trying to pass but if you want my real opinion about a real public option: here it is.
The Healthcare Debate
“It is socialism”: That’s what the conservatives, the fanatics scream when they hear the term “Public Option”. It is Government run healthcare. They tell us that government run healthcare is healthcare run by bureaucrats who would decided what kind of treatment you would get and when. The choice would no longer be yours or your doctor’s. We’ve seen this before: they capitalize on people’s fears for them to act against their own self interest. They used the same tactics to get us into Iraq. Are we going to let them use the same tactics for us to allow 40, 000 Americans to die of treatable diseases due to no or insufficient insurance? What kind of people are we? More people go into bankruptcy due to medical costs than any other reason. And I’m not just talking about people that are uninsured.
Well if that’s what you’re afraid of; let me clear it up for you. There’s already an institution that decides what kind of treatment you get and when. There’s already an institution that can comes between you and your doctor. It’s called the Insurance industry. By the way this same institution raised your premiums by twice the amount and lowered your benefits in the last 10 years. And guest what? This same institution tries to find all the reasons or pre existing conditions for you not to get a treatment you desperately need. So what are you afraid of? That a public option would force this institution to lower their premium; give help to people that really need it and; prevent them from excluding people for pre existing conditions? I believe there could be really one legitimate concern when it comes to the public option: the treasury and taxes. We now have one of the largest deficits this country has ever known. And it was due to 8 years of unethical and in some cases criminal behavior by an unscrupulous administration. Well let me clear up something for you. In the path we are on right now; in the next 10 years, we will likely be paying twice as much in premiums, deductibles and have less coverage to show for it. So would rather have maybe a 5 percent increase on your current taxes and pay nothing for insurance premiums or pay 10 times that 5 percent increase in premiums to pour more billions into the pockets of already billionaire CEOs. Really! This is your fear? Have the FBI already showed up at your house to ask you to give them all your records so they can have an accurate account of your daily life? We are afraid to loose our freedom we say! Yet we allowed the past administration to suspend Habeas Corpus so they can supposedly protect us. I wonder if people really think about the things that they say sometimes or are they just animated by hatred, misplaced passion about things they don’t understand. Next time you try to argue against the public option; try not to use the words: lefties, socialist, liberal and maybe I'll begin to think that you have a logical, plausible argument against it and I’ll pay attention. In the meanwhile do not argue using my fears but my hopes and dreams.
A lot of truth in what you say. Unfortunately with it you too will be labeled. I have been labeled continually and make it my special effort to not marginalize the argument with political labels but to no avail. They keep on creeping in and people will be who they are regardless.
I wish we could get on with it and come together and figure this out. Just think, Canada and Europe have already done it, and guess what, it works!
What does all this mean to the people who are dying because the Insurance Industry won't pay for their medical care?
Those living outside the US struggle to understand what it is about universal healthcare that is so frightening.
What exactly is it that makes it such a horrible idea when the rest of the world is getting on just fine with it?
Does providing health care to low income citizens make you a communist or just a civilized country?
History has shown that the larger the gap between the "haves" and the "have nots" the more unstable a society becomes. I don't see how increasing social instability will do you any favors in the long run.
The world is watching and the general sentiment remains that they are not impressed.
Isn't it a little strange that "the world" is watching a wholly internal matter in the U.S.?
Well, the U.S. which I am a part of, is thought of as a World Leading Nation and we, the U.S. has brought others into this by using examples of other world health care programs to tear down or promote a universal health care system. And they do have a right to observe and make comments. We can choose whether to listen or not.
If we didn't want others involved, then we should have never used them as examples.
First, no one's arguing that no one has a right to observe and make comments about the U.S. (or that we're somehow incapable of knowing what to listen to). I just find it strange that people would take the time and energy to worry about another country's internal policy matters when they likely have plenty to worry about on their own.
Second, our analysis of other countries' health care systems as we formulate our own does not require their citizens' feedback on our current system. If you think it does, then you're going to have to explain exactly how.
First...my statement was a fact to what I read into your comment, not an attack of any kind on you. Sorry if you took it that way.
Second...And yes the outside of the U.S. commenters do have a right to voice their opinions on what is Said or written about their health care system. Our media and those posting here have brought them into this with agendas to tear their systems apart or brag on how well it serves. I know if someone wrote about any system in the US and I found it negative against the US, I would speak up on it. Wouldn't you?
I didn't feel attacked; I was just utterly perplexed by your reply.
I have to say though that I'm still having difficulty understanding where you're coming from. I think anyone can criticize anything else. But non-Americans having strong opinions about our health care reform debate is like we Americans having strong opinions about the Laotian educational system. Why would we care? We can have those opinions, but isn't our attention better served focusing on our *own* educational and other problems?
Ok, if you are saying WE (US) should be more concerned, then yes! We definately should be more concerned about what we do than what others do or have done. As for "others" (non-US), I see their concern more about what our media and persons have been saying about them. I have heard horror stories and read them in the US media about Canada, Britian, etc. Then on another page I hear or read how great their system is. So I can see why they would be concerned. Maybe they are also looking to see if We (US) can come up with a plan that they would prefer. Maybe they could provide info that could benefit us in what is going on.
OK - looks like we're on the same page.
I've lived overseas, in 3 countries, and always found it strange when non-Americans pay more attention to the goings on in the US over what's happening in their country. It's like people who obsess over the travails of celebrities but who can't keep their own lives together.
True. I gotta get supper. Nice discussing this with you.
That's a good way to put it. Obama is the current Britney, and our economy and security is the baby on his lap as he drives leftward waaaaay over the speed limit.
I'm not surprised at all that you stretched the analogy that way.
You can easily imagine the entire birth certificate matter to be manufactured drama by people accustomed to watching paternity test results on Maury Povich, because they don't really have the mental capacity to understand the news.
I don't think it is. I think it is encouraging as it speaks to our relevance and position in the world. Should they critisize us and make suggestions, absolutely, because have we become so arrogant that we cannot separate our ideas from our pride?
Pelosi no longer wants to put the final bill on line before the vote. If anyone is still interested in the new death bill this is a great place to listen to a discussion:
Independent facts please. It's like asking the Insurance Industry what they think about the public option?
The insurance industry has weighed in an they have warned unless the government gets EVERYBODY to buy insurance rates will go up considerably more than anticipated.
Just like the credit card companies warned that if the bill to reform that industry was passed the cost of credit would be higher and there would be less access.
Surprise! The cost of credit is higher and harder to get!
I'd listen to what the republicans are saying and then you could ask your democrat representatives to explain why it isn't so.
I guest I'm the one who posted a link to a democrat site to prove a point. I wouldn't go to a republican nor would I go to democrat site to look for facts. They all have their own agenda and would unfortunately only highlight facts that proves their point. And that's why I prefer independent and non profit sites because they have nothing to gain from pushing any agenda except for the ideas that they fight for.
Anyone who thinks that passing bill behind closed doors is constitutional really doesn't understand what this country was founded on. Here is a link that will explain the different bill, it should scare you:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id … p;catnum=3
Anyway everybody was SHOCKED in europe, watching a TV coverage about an american hospital where unfortunated people were seeking care.
There was a lottery system that drew out the lucky one to receive treatment.
Never saw nothing so degrading.
does it need reform...
Read my Hubon healthcare reform ... this package being proposed is horendous , I really don't think there is an arguement on weather or not healthcare does need reform, because everyone knows somethng needs to change , but this bill up for debate now will take away too many freedoms , way too many , it really is scary
I agree there are a lot of problems with the current bill but void of any plausible help from the other side this is all we have to go on. The answer that congress is getting from the opposition is no. That's it, no. What can you do with that?
Don't you ever get tired of parroting the party line? I posted yesterday the republican bill with all of the amendment they have been trying to get the democrats to consider, but the democrats have shut them out and not allowed them to bring anything up for debate! This has been the case from day one and Obama has been no better!
Did I say these were solely conservative ideas?
I said that conservatives were only too happy to suspend their respect of the Constitution when it placated their paranoias. That they shared these paranoias with many Democrats too is besides the point.
Your Clinton quote makes it clear (especially in light of his current position) that the Democrats can be spineless liars when it's politically expedient for them to be so.
Frank doesn't shy away from pointing out the stupidity of people like Bachmann. And if you say "keep your goddamn government hands off my Medicare," then yes, a dining room table is probably more intelligent than you are.
I remember he said something disparaging about Marilyn Musgrove too. He was right; she is a complete moron.
Bachman takes the Looney Tunes prize in the House. Barney Frank may be the smartest representative in the House.
In 1993, Bachmann and other parents in Stillwater, Minnesota opened New Heights Charter School. The oversight of New Heights soon encountered problems when a group of concerned parents and the school district questioned if the insertion of Christianity into the school's curriculum amounted to using public tax money to fund a religious school. One such parent, Denise Stephens, a longtime Republican, charged the board of directors of the school (which included Bachmann) with trying to set up classes on Creationism and advocating that "something called '12 Christian principles' be taught, very much like the 10 Commandments."[
Bachmann contributed to the "death panel" controversy when she read from a July 24 article written by Betsy McCaughey from the floor of the House. Sarah Palin said that her "death panel" remark was inspired by what she called the "Orwellian" opinions of Ezekiel Emanuel as described by Bachmann,
Bachmann has said that people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender suffer from "sexual dysfunction" and "sexual identity disorders." Appearing on the radio program Prophetic View In The News to promote her 2004 state capitol rally against same-sex marriage, Bachmann said that "God calls us to fall on our faces and our knees and cry out to Him and confess our sins. And I would just ask your listeners to do that now. Cry out to a Holy God."
Depends on your viewpoint. I'd say something like, "Disaster...."
The title of the thread is based on a mistaken presumption or two, though. I'm as strongly against the current bill as anyone else on the planet, but not because I believe we don't need reform. Instead, it's because I believe we don't need Uncle Sam in the health care business, and I REALLY believe we don't need somebody threatening to fine me if I don't buy insurance. I've paid my own way (no ER freebies frequently quoted by the force-'em-to-buy crowd, either, thank you) for most of my 66 years.
In other words, "Mommy, I can do it MYSELF! Take your Nanny State back and stuff it up Mary Poppins' parasol!!"
"Barney Frank may be the smartest representative in the House."
Do you really believe this stuff or do you just write it to get a laugh? If its for laughs then you are cracking me up.
Here's a link to a chart showing the Democrats who voted against the House health care bill passed yesterday:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009 … -vote.html
Very interesting list Ralph. Do you have a data source that shows percentage of population uninsured people by Congressional District. I don't really need it, but would find it very interesting.
I don't disagree that the health care system needs major overhaul, but the way Congress and this administration are going about it is simply sickening.
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