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It appears the Greeks don't run anything...

  1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
    weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago

    And thus go 'socialised' countries.  Over the cliff...

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41723432/ns … _business/

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      But aren't they doing what you are proposing for America?
      They are saying they are paying too much tax and protesting.

      I smell hypocrisy.

      1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
        weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        you're clueless.

        1. John Holden profile image60
          John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          I know that Greece was doing OK until it embraced capitalism and got in too deep with the big banks.

          More civility from you I see!

          1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
            weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            You're clueless.

            1. RachaelLefler profile image96
              RachaelLeflerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              ok, so repeated name calling? Excellent way to win an argument! *clap* *clap*

  2. Flightkeeper profile image74
    Flightkeeperposted 6 years ago

    Wow!  That's going to be one huge default for the other European countries who lent them a lot of money.

  3. knolyourself profile image61
    knolyourselfposted 6 years ago

    Socialist Greece and American banks.

  4. superwags profile image78
    superwagsposted 6 years ago

    Are there any countries in the world that Americans don't consider socialised? Other than their own.

    1. PrettyPanther profile image82
      PrettyPantherposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Fortunately, the hubbers who are constantly crying "socialism" here on these forums are not representative of the majority of Americans. 

      Just had to throw that in there.  wink

      1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
        weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I am the dead center of Americanism.   The Constitution.

        1. PrettyPanther profile image82
          PrettyPantherposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          LOLOLOL!  A Colbert moment if I ever saw one.

        2. John Holden profile image60
          John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Sheesh!

          1. PrettyPanther profile image82
            PrettyPantherposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Can't you see Stephen Colbert deadpanning that to the camera?

            Wow.

            1. John Holden profile image60
              John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Yup!

      2. superwags profile image78
        superwagsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Hehe, good news! I don't doubt that people who call themselves "we hold these truths" might be bigger "patriots" than most!

  5. Aficionada profile image89
    Aficionadaposted 6 years ago

    From that article - at the very end.

    "Greeks, when they see that the law is being applied in general, they will implement it too," ...
    "But when it isn't being applied to some, such as when there are ministers who have been stealing, ... Well, if the laws aren't implemented at the top, others won't implement them."

    I think a lot of countries can relate to that problem.  Apply laws equally, or else you get a mess like this.

  6. Greek One profile image75
    Greek Oneposted 6 years ago

    Thanks for the loan, though
    hahahahahahahahaha

    1. Flightkeeper profile image74
      Flightkeeperposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      ...Says Barry to Hu.

  7. knolyourself profile image61
    knolyourselfposted 6 years ago

    Loan time coming.

  8. knolyourself profile image61
    knolyourselfposted 6 years ago

    The Clues Brothers.

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Hey, less of the brother bit!
      I don't have to resort to petty insults to uphold my corner.

    2. weholdthesetruths profile image61
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      John has no idea what he's talking about.   The Greek debt problem is very straightforward and the history is simple to understand. 

      Greece joined the EU some time back, and one of the things that happened, was that Greece had access to the ability to borrow money at very low rates, as part of the EU's common economic block.   Greece used this money for immense spending, and to create many new giveaway programs, spending programs and social support programs.   

      But it didn't build any economic base to pay for it.   So, when the easy money ran out, because Greece's debt is so large, in comparison to it's miniscule wealth creation, the country was in the position of either defaulting on debt, or defaulting on internal payments.   

      So, the EU came to their 'rescue' by lending them MORE money, putting them in debt deeper.   Obviously, this means they MUST cut spending.   Greece can't be taxed any more than it is.   Besides, Greece's taxation had become a joke, with the industry of tax avoidance having become a national pastime.   

      The problem lies, in that the considerable majority of Greeks, in some way, depend on government spending for their lifestyle.   "Austerity" (just spending only what they have, is austerity to them) means reduced benefits and handouts.   It's just simple math. 

      BTW, Victor Davis Hansen wrote a wonderful article about this most of a year ago, explaining the historical roots and the likely results.   He lives there part time.    It's all going straight over the cliff, just as he hinted he expected them to do.   

      John's clueless.   He thinks this has something to do with "capitalism".   Nope, it's all about socialism and its results.   Period.

      1. Greek One profile image75
        Greek Oneposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        The problem in Greece is not necessarily that the Greeks depended too much on government subsidies, it is that they never wanted to PAY for them through taxes.

        1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
          weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          I don't care how you wish to characterize it.  They built their politics on borrowed money, and lifestyle on distributed borrowed wealth.   Taxation is not an "unlimited" thing.   You can tax only up to a certain level, and then humans begin to change behavior to avoid it.   Keep raising it and making it more punitive, and eventually, they just break the law, or act in ways to simply remove themselves from the system. 

          Government can only be funded by a small portion of the wealth created in your country.   If that amount created is small, then no level of taxation will create large amounts of money to spend on "services".

          1. John Holden profile image60
            John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Wow, he managed a whole post without mentioning socialism and instead noticed that they had been playing with capitalism!

            1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
              weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              You're clueless.

          2. Greek One profile image75
            Greek Oneposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Understood, but if you want a society based on distributed wealth, then you have to be willing to have the wealth distributed.

            It was never the case in Greece that the levels of taxation were too high to begin with... the issue has always been that tax avoidance is a common national characteristic.

            You can't have it both ways.. services with no one paying for it.

            1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
              weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              You also missed the failure to address the creation of wealth.   That is done by the private sector only.   Greece did not create an environment conducive to it, nor did the incentives to do so exist adequately for it to done.    Again, I point you to the "small portion of created wealth" that can be taxed for government (consumption) services.   

              I'm not trying to comment on any cultural "tax avoidance" habits or behavior, but then, anyone who expected the culture to change was lying to themselves.   It all boils down to extreme irresponsibility on the part of government and leadership, who set themselves up as the major factor of economic activity.    ( socialism)

              1. John Holden profile image60
                John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Still avoiding putting your incisive analytical mind to the Eire question, or does that not count because they aren't socialist?

                1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
                  weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Same problem as Greece.   Duhhh.   Are you wholesale blind, or what?   None of this is complicated or difficult in ANY way.    In EVERY case, it is a matter of socialist policies causing overspending and overtaxation and eventual crushing debt.

                  1. John Holden profile image60
                    John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Ah, now we get socialist policies do we?
                    What part of socialism was responsible for the collapse of banking and the need for Eire to get itself in hock bailing them out?

              2. Greek One profile image75
                Greek Oneposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                The government was at fault.. but as Greece is a democracy, the fault lies with the people themselves.

                Many nations have levels of socialism.. some have more programs than others.  Aside from the philosophical question of whether a government has the right to tax and create social programs, I think you can have social programs in certain sectors that are funding with taxpayers dollars without going into financial ruin... or kill the goose (private enterprise) that lays the egg

                1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
                  weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  In theory, you can.   But greed for votes always trumps responsibility when there is no limit on power and money, and it is a slope downhill that always accelerates until the bottom is hit. 

                  This is why much of the EU has an economic history of constantly swerving back and forth...  growth of entitlements, a period of stasis, and then economic crisis, at which "austerity" happens, recovery is tried, and then it repeats itself.   

                  Some just live in a constant state of economic malaise, but the subjects either don't know better, or are just too apathetic to do anything.

                2. DannyMaio profile image61
                  DannyMaioposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  great post!

      2. John Holden profile image60
        John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I'm getting a little fed up with your petty insults.

        There is nothing in your treatise to prove that what has happened in Greece is anything to do with socialism.

        How can you blame socialism for the similar events in none socialist Eire?

        1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
          weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Oh, go blow it out your ear.   Youv'e been entirely disrespectful for every post I've read from you.   Your silly word games and refusal to behave like a civilized human.    All you do is follow me around and yell that socialism isn't redistribution by government, yet no definition of socialism exists that isn't based entirely on centralized distribution or assignment, by authority. 

          You rail against capitalism, which is nothing more than the ability to own and use property, which means you don't believe in private ownership, which means you're for 100% government dependency and control.  Period.

          1. John Holden profile image60
            John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Oh yes, caught me out with my constant response of clueless to your posts.
            I'll remind you that my postings were perfectly polite until you accused me of dishonesty and could only defend the accusation by saying that it was because I disagreed with you!

            You jump to some pretty massive conclusions backed only by your lack of understanding.

            1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
              weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              OF COURSE YOU'RE DISHONEST.  You're here wailing that all these countries with socialist policies are not failing because of those overspending socialist policies...   

              Either you're a dunce, or you're dishonest.   There's no other way around it.

              1. John Holden profile image60
                John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                It ill behoves me to attempt to debate with somebody with such a fundamental misunderstanding of the English language.

                By the same token then, you are either a dunce or dishonest.
                Sorry, but you can't have it any other way.

                1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
                  weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  You see, here's the part where you get insulting.   You know, the "he doesn't know english" or "he doesn't know socialism" or "he doen'st know capitalism".    But you're never willing to say what it is, and open YOUR thoughts to critique, just hand it out.   

                  That's a typical leftist and follower mentality.

                  1. John Holden profile image60
                    John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Well I defend my claim that anybody who will call a disagreement a lie or dishonesty does not understand English usage!
                    You could say that you disagree with me, even that you disagree with my barking mad ideas, but to accuse me of dishonesty is not on.
                    Notice that whatever you level at me you can't accuse me of calling you dishonest or a liar, that's because I can believe that though I think your beliefs are misplaced I quite accept that they are firmly and honestly held beliefs.
                    I have said and you've agreed that it is pointless telling you my view of socialism because you've said that you will take no notice of it because you know it all.

            2. DannyMaio profile image61
              DannyMaioposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              John, it is your lack of understanding! history has shown socialism doesn't work. what part of that is so hard to grasp? Greece is going down because of socialism....Period. The united states was built on capitalism and once we started slowly doing socialist things we started our downfall. I believe whom ever likes socialism should move to Greece or Spain or any other socialist country. why should the US change for people with their hands out all the time?

              1. John Holden profile image60
                John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                And when has socialism ever been tried?
                We are not a socialist country (the UK) but have several socialist policies in force and they do us no harm whatsoever.
                We have problems at the moment but these are not down to socialism, rather from the global banking crash and the war in Afghanistan.

                1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
                  weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  "they do us no harm, whatsoever".   

                  LOL!

                  Ok, this time it's not said in jest, in anger, or mocking.   It's said with a stunned, saddened, and sorrowful tone. 

                  You're clueless. 

                  Sigh.

                  1. John Holden profile image60
                    John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    So, what harm have they done us then?
                    I'm afraid that I don't like to resort to slagging words, but you are actually clueless if you believe that you have a greater understanding of the situation in the UK than somebody who actually lives here!

                2. DannyMaio profile image61
                  DannyMaioposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  the war in afgan?????????????????? what does the UK have there??????? where are you spending money? God you are really clueless. I do not mean to disrespect you but sorry you need to take some history and economic classes before you say things.

                  1. superwags profile image78
                    superwagsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    We have 12000 military personnel in Afghanistan at the moment. The hit to the UK economy has been mainly down to the banking crisis because the UK economy relied so heavily on it.

                    Other countries with far more "socialist" attitudes to public speding have fared far better throught the global economic crisis: the Dutch, Germans and our Scandy cousins have done just well, but rely less heavily on banking. I wouldn't say that it had much to do with public spending, but if you've got evidence to the contrary....

                  2. John Holden profile image60
                    John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    And you reckon I'm clueless!

                    £4.5 billion pa in Afghanistan and Iraq supporting the American invasion and incidentally making our selves targets for Islamic terrorism.

                    Now, about those history and economic lessons!

          2. PrettyPanther profile image82
            PrettyPantherposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Are you for real?  You are so "out there" you've got me thinking you're a Stephen Colbert wannabe.

            1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
              weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Tell me, what do I advocate that's "out there"?   

              BTW, I do my advocating, the explaining what I'm "for" on my hubpages.  So, instead of relying on someone else's "explanation" of what I think ( which will be untrue), just read it and tell me.

        2. weholdthesetruths profile image61
          weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          oh, and quote my comments on Eire. 

          Thanks

  9. knolyourself profile image61
    knolyourselfposted 6 years ago

    Time for lunch. bbl.

  10. knolyourself profile image61
    knolyourselfposted 6 years ago

    " We have the world's BEST health care, period.   By every true measure." Had to check to see what country this person was from. Think even Cuba has a better health care system than the mighty USA. "The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health.

    1. weholdthesetruths profile image61
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      That's nonsense.

  11. Cagsil profile image61
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    I'm simply amazed this thread is still going. lol

    1. superwags profile image78
      superwagsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      It's what's known as "Anglo-yankee-whingey syndrome". It's what happens when two almost perfectly alined world views pretend they're diometrically opposed!

 
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