The Drug war in Mexico

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   vincentfrankposted 13 years ago

   I just read an article about Javler Sicilia a Mexican poet.His son was found dead killed by a Cartel hit team.Since 2006 38,000 people have lost there lives in this war that we support.And by support I mean all the Americans that buy drugs from the Cartels.We need to take start figthing back this is not just a Mexican problem.The goverments of both nations are doing all they can to stop the killings but its just not enough.We in America need to stop feeding the monster.Stop supporting the Cartels and all there illegal ventures.And there are alot of then.Drugs you name it the whole gambet,white savlery,dog figthing,illegal workers to name just a few.
   This not a goverment problem it a social problem and the people have got to solve it.As I write this Javiler Sicilia and hundreds of victems relatives are protesting the Cartels with signs saying We Are Fed Up on a 12 city march.We need to support this cause with money,food guns what ever it takes.Im thinking this is just the start.Remenber that the people mexico killed Poncho Via and there are fed up

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      dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I agree it is a very serious problem.
      You lost a little on the Pancho Via sentence a bit though..?

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         vincentfrankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks for pointing that out .what I was trying to say was the sane madness happened in Columbia .And the people started Los  Pepes and they were the ones with lots of help from us got him.

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            dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            got it, yes. The problem is also the US does not want it fixed. I suspect The very top Goverment folks to be some how involved in the money.
            
            Thats why I say they do not wish it fixed.

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               vincentfrankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               well the two sides are about to meet up.I hope that Javier Sicila runs for president and can make a difference.President Colderon is already talking smack.What needs to be done is to raise the standrad of living in Mexico.How to do that first stop the Cartels death grip on the nation.I told a young Mexican-American girl about all the killings going on in the Drug
               war and her responce was "My people are not fighters there lovers".L told her "Dont worry Chica If Benito Jaurrez and his band of peons could kick out the French in 1864 Javier and his Trail of tears movemaint can do the same thing"

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   Evan G Rogersposted 13 years ago

   If the US legalized Weed, half of the problems in Mexico would vanish in a month.

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      wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      To harm our own country if an effort to help Mexico is not a reasonable response.  And no, I'm not interested in another discussion on the pros and cons of legalizing any or all drugs.
      
      On the other hand if our govt would act in accordance with our oldest and most venerated set of laws and actually secure our borders as required it would go a long way to helping Mexico as well as the US.

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         vincentfrankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I think you missed my point .Buy helping Javier Sicilia would not be hurting the country its helping.And what Im saying is 38,000 people are dead.Not just Narco Mexicans innocent people caugtht in the cross fire .DEA ,Police from both sides of the border ,Border patrol gaurds,and more are getting killed every day.Sir were getting hit and the volince is far reaching.How far I live in Sacramento Ca and my wife who works as a nanny familys sister in law was murdered by a LA street gang .All part of the Cartels

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            wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            And I'm not sure I'm following you, now.  My post was a response to Evans, with the addition that if our govt but enforced the laws already in effect as they are sworn to do it would help a great deal to stop the drug cartels while solving other problems as well.
            
            If you are suggesting that everyone in the country stop buying the cartels product, well, it's just not going to happen.  I wish it would but it won't.

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               Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               How does legalizing weed harm our country? That is just plain wrong.
               
               People don't murder over territory when things are legal - use Alcohol as an example.
               
               It's just wrong to think that legalizing weed would harm the US.

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                  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  13 years of prohibition, and America learned nothing from it.

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         Texasbetaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Blocking yourself off from the problem, the problem you we directly created, doesn't fix the problem dude. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't do anything but cut off your sight.
         You can claim that you don't want to have another discussion on the pros and cons of legalizing weed, but in the previous statement you claimed that it would "hurt" our country, so you have already engaged and initiated said debate.

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         kerrygposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Personally I'd say the drug war has been pretty much an unmitigated disaster for our own country as well.

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      vincentfrankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      To legalize weed sure thats a start .But its much bigger than that I use weed for my depression and sleep disorder my self and I dont buy street drugs thats feeding the monster.The Cartels have they hands in a lot of pots

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         Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I didn't say "legalize medical marijuana"
         
         I said "legalize all marijuana"
         
         Half the funding of these cartels would fall over the course of a month (a day, really) if it were just legalized.

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            Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            As happens from time to time, I find myself in complete agreement with Evan.
            
            The results of repealing US prohibition show the effect on organized crime.

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            wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            More likely you would simply find packets of weed, stuffed with coke and meth, entering the country.  Or freon - that seems the latest thing around here.

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               Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               wildernessKinda like a gateway drug package, smoke weed and we will get you hooked on coke and meth
               
               Would'nt happen

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               Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               wildernessKinda like a gateway drug package, smoke weed and we will get you hooked on coke and meth
               
               Would'nt happen

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            Texasbetaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Where in the heck do you live dude? You don't find week stuffed with coke and meth. Are you out of your mind? My brother, I am already getting that you have never indulged in the drug world. Coke is expensive bro. Meth isn't but the value is higher than weed. It is simple economics. You don't have to put stuff in weed to make people smoking that weed, like it. They like it to begin with. You don't sell a hamburger and put a diamond in it. Why? That little diamond costs more than the hamburger. Nobody is going to put coke in weed and sell it as regular weed. It is economically ignorant. One thing dealers are not is financially ignorant. Nobody is going to put meth in weed and sell it as regular weed. If you have freon in weed, people put it there after they bought it, or bought it BECAUSE it was put in it.
            The weed from Mexico is HORRIBLE. They don't produce hydro or specialized weed...they produce what is called schwag. Schwag hurts your lungs, tastes horrible, doesn't work well, and is full of seeds and stems which if you smoke, you'll get a headache. People don't search out scwag; people are forced to smoke and buy schwag due to availability. Legalize weed in the US, you eliminate schwag; you eliminate the importing of Mexican weed; even little packets...which btw - logistically is just ignorant. You don't import little packets of weed. A little packet of weed, of Mexican weed, costs about 10 bucks. It would cost more to transport than to sell. Again, simple economics.
            It is usually a good idea to know the subject matter before one forms a final opinion.

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               wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               If you meant to reply to my post, you misunderstand. 
               
               Yes, you might put a diamond or two in a hamburger to evade customs, then throw the hamburger away (or sell it) and keep the diamonds for sale elsewhere.  This kind of thing has been done forever, using anything from cars to furniture for "carriers".
               
               If you are right, however, on the value and cost of the weed from Mexico it will do no good to legalize it here anyway as they won't sell much in any case.

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               Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               So, you're quoting "simple economics", but we're both guilty of not pointing out how much the drug cartels make off of each type of drug.
               
               I was searching for which drug makes the most money for the cartels, but I can't find it.
               
               I suppose I assumed it was weed -- this article shows that Marijuana is the most widely used illegal drug in the world (http://www.globalissues.org/article/755/illicit-drugs), almost 4 times as much as all the other drugs combined.
               
               Other sources say that heroin is quite profitable.
               
               But they don't say which drug is the cash cow for cartels.
               
               A high price isn't necessarily a sign that the drug is the cash cow.

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                  wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Evan, I checked your link but couldn't spot the reference to marijuana being the most widely used illegal drug.  I was interested in seeing how that figure  was derived.  Is it based on the tonnage sold?  Number of doses sold?  Dollar value?  Number of users?

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                     Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Sorry I haven't replied - hate the new hub forum format. I used to have all the forums I've been talking on readily available and I could just swoop in.
                     
                     Anyway, The chart in the middle shows that about 4% of the population of the world, ages 15-64, ADMIT to using weed, as opposed to 1% who admit to using "harder" drugs.
                     
                     That's all I was talking about.

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                        wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        And it's my turn to apologize - I didn't see your post (for 6 days!) for the same reason you didn't see mine.
                        
                        Thanks for the answer, though.  Based on the number of users - that makes perfect sense to me, although I'm a little surprised that the poppy derivatives aren't a little higher world wide. 
                        
                        Of course, that is also assuming that a reasonable sampling of world wide population, from all cultures, was made AND that the respondents were honest.

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                  Texasbetaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  It is definitely the most widely used drug by far...far far and away. The figures are usually derived from the number of people who have attested to using it and how frequently. They can't measure the tonnage sold due to the various sources it comes from. However, you might not know it, but half of the people you talk to every day use it at least once a month. Meth is second, and then shrooms, then coke, and down the line. Heroin makes a ton of money, because it is the most addictive substance on the planet. I don't think we should legalize all drugs by any means...I have tried most, and can attest that you don't want any part of them. BUT, weed should definitely be legalized, and not just to handicap the cartels. Both in volume and profits, weed makes the most for the cartels. Btw- cartels don't have to sneak this stuff across the border. That is a myth. The border agents are paid handily and regularly let them right through. The sneaking is for illegals, not the drugs.

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                     Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Wurd to weed being legalized.
                     
                     I want to argue that we're on the same page on the weed issue. Maybe I over-estimated the amount of money the drug cartels make on weed, but I think that I supported the argument that weed is a huge cash cow for drug cartels.
                     
                     For anyone else reading this - if you can find a post talking about which drugs make the cartels the most money, I would LOVE to see it.

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                        Texasbetaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        If you haven't noticed lately man, we are on the same page on several things.

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                           Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           Here's a relevant article
                           http://nymag.com/news/features/2007/profit/32888/
                           
                           It's about meth. It talks about how much money the guys make.
                           
                           Maybe meth is the cash cow nowadays.

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                              Texasbetaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              I honestly don't know too much about meth. I was always scared of those cats, too unpredictable...I avoided it and them like the plague.

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                                 Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 It's actually pretty interesting. (Not the taking of it, but the science of it)
                                 
                                 Meth is a very similar chemical to dopamine, which is the brain's "reward this behavior" chemical. There's apparently a way to measure how "awesome" something is in terms of the dopamine released: for most people an orgasm is around a measurement of 400, and eating an awesome cheeseburger is around 200.
                                 
                                 Apparently taking a hit of Meth is about a 1400 measurement.
                                 
                                 Meth makes you "used to" being rewarded, and then when your brain naturally rewards you with dopamine, it's just not the same.
                                 
                                 Doing things like "eating" and "getting sleep" just don't feel rewarding, and ... well... bad happens.
                                 
                                 There are 'great' photos showing the rapid decline in health of meth smokers online.

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                           Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           According to Marijuana Inc., a documentary, Weed is about 60%+ of the drug market's profit.

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            Texasbetaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            The comical thing is that the most vicious supporters of keeping weed illegal are the actual growers. That is why CA won't legalize it...not the Bible thumpers, it was the growers who voted it down.

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               Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               That's -obviously- because it's worth more when it's illegal.
               
               Weed is a very very very widely used drug -- much more than the harder drugs. This is why I think it might be the "cash cow" crop.

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                  Texasbetaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  True, also read about the economics of its other uses. You'll dig it Evan. Check into what the most profitable cash crop the US has ever produced, until it became illegal...hint, hint. Our Declaration of Independence was written on it.

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                     Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     HEMP!
                     
                     If i'm not mistaken, hemp refers to all plants in the Cannabis genre, not just the THC-having plants.
                     
                     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp
                     
                     It is actually possible to grow hemp without growing THC.
                     
                     But, because they're similar, the US outlaws it all.

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   earnestshubposted 13 years ago

   The drug problem that causes the wars has 2 elements that I can see.
   
   The market to sell them to. (America and other "rich" countries.)
   
   Poverty.
   The reason the drug wars continue in Mexico.
   The drug lords feed a lot of people while killing politicians and innocent people in the process of protecting their drug businesses.
   It would probably be cheaper for the Mexican Government to deal with the poverty than spending the money on law enforcement.
   It will not be stopped by the bent politicians and enforcement agencies who have their hands in the pockets of their constituents.
   Many of the cops are sure to be on the payroll from drug bosses and would warn them before a raid.
   
   Which way would you go if someone offered you a years salary every month and an alternative that may involve your family being tortured and then wiped out?

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      vincentfrankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I think that you have a better understanding of whats going on than I do.And your dead on about poverty being the root of the problen.I need to think on this get back later

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         earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I only know what I have learned from a Mexican friend and his family, but they deal with all these people daily, so the information is from what they experience I guess.
         
         I have reason to trust him though, he has never been caught telling lies to any of the people we deal with mutually and I respect him as an honest family man as well.

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            vincentfrankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I just wanted to say thanks for all the feed back .I still want more attention for Javier Siciia.I met a member of the media at a fund drive of some one that maybe can help.I wont say who it is ,I think it makes me look like a jerk.And I hope you all are spreading the word about what Javier is trying to do.If he makes out alive.This is a very brave man and one more time I want to point out what we can do here to help.Dont buy street drugs.hire guys from home depoy or use undocumented workers.Its all feeding the monster.Please remember this is a war and people are getting killed

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               earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Thank you. Here is some recent information.
               http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju … er-sicilia

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               Mariefr2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Vincent –
               
               You are absolutely correct. This is probably the most serious problem in the US. It is so easy to become addicted to these drugs. And, since they are illegal, tremendous profits can be made. I have heard that drug usage is down now though, because people who have tried drugs know their bad effects.
               
               About Javier Sicilia…. He is a poet. According to one article on the internet, the Mexicans respond to poets who are also politicians… I think he is doing a great job.

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                  vincentfrankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  wow you sound like you know whats going on. Get back later thanks

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                  vincentfrankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I looked into Javier a little more.and I was incorrect about some things.First he does have the support of the Mexican goverment.They are escorting him and The Trail of Tears movement.I saw a interview with him by a mexican reporter.In the interview he said that both goverments are both responsible for the violence.The Americans for supplling the Mexicans with arms and all the hard ware they need.The Mexican goverment in the way they are figthing the war.He proved that when they want to the Mexican gorverment can make arrest and crack down on the cartels they just dont want to

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   TMMasonposted 13 years ago

   The Mexican border needs to be sealed and we need to designate a "no go zone". What amazes me is brewer said a year and a half ago there were beheadings going on at the border and the left claimed she was lying. Now we all know that it was true. Mexico is a sess pool, and should be flushed like one.

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      John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Cess pools are not as a general rule flushed, rather left to dissipate their contents into their surroundings.

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         TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Go to a dairy around here and once or twice a year the fire hoses are blasting away as they flush the shit from the pool.

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            Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            The Cess pool will only keep coming back, until pot is made legal

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               TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Yup.

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            vincentfrankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Ok Mexico is a cess pool.How are we going to clean it up.Arent the borders already sealed.What can we do better.I an very interrested in your reponce

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   TMMasonposted 13 years ago

   As if we need Mexico to grow our weed for us, or to manufature any drugs for us, Americans do that just fine by themselves.
   
   And. I am tired of hearing that BS that it is our fault they run the drugs here and have the crime issues sthey do.
   
   Mexico's problem is criminals, and they would commit crime in another way to make money if all the drug use stopped tomorrow. There problem is they are a failed state with criminals in charge period. Time for a new system in Mexico, they ware an oil wealthy nation, but eventhere pols are criminals.
   
   And legalizing marijuana would cut 75% of the Cartels monwey in a week.

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   earnestshubposted 13 years ago

   Legalise and make the cartels starve.

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      TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I think we agree on somethingE.  Damn Earnest, fire it up!

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         earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         We have drug laws here, but they can't get our police force to harass dope smokers as the cops just won't do it.
         
         You can be fined here for smoking weed, but it never happens.
         
         I tried to change the law in the 1980's by running for the senate, but got beaten by a guy who read the stats better than me and went the other way.
         I should try again now I guess, as things have changed.
         
         
         The problem I have in doing so is a little thing called morals.
         
         The lobbyists have to be agreed with then double crossed after you get in.. a sort of "ends justify the means" thing.

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            TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Yes. It seems morals and Politics just do not mix... anywhere in the world.

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               earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I have seen a few politicians who play both sides to get elected.
               
               The same guy who beat me in the senate gave me a free ride on his preferences to take him out as the Mayoral candidate two terms in a row. We rode in on his shirtails!
               
               He woke up too late, that the new Mayor was in reality given the job by his preferences and at his expense!
               
               I had learned the rules!
               
               No big campaign needed, pure strategy. Two of us plotted the election in my lounge room at home over a period of 2 months.

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                  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Exactly. I worked for the City of Lynn Ma. for over a decadde, directly for the mayor, in the mahagement of properties owned or siezed by the city, and the games were so bad... it was a depressing look into American politics frst-hand. Taught me alot, E. That was bick in my dyed in the wool Democrat days. I don't miss them.

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                     earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Yep! I don't like to be too tight with any political party.
                     
                     They lie to feed their kids too, only some of their kids get a bit better than a fair go compared to others broadcasting the same level of ignorance.
                     I am listening to our parliament as I write! You could run a country off the hot air!
                     Mexico needs a decent economy with modern infrastructure in my view if it is to have any hope of stopping the drug crime
                     
                     Decriminalisation of drugs in America would give them a huge start in cleaning it up once an economic alternative is in place in Mexico.

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                        vincentfrankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Unfortunately I dont think that a econoic change came ocur without a political one.And the decrminalisation of all drugs scares me. Could you imagine thr overdose rate the first year.Hard drugs kill and thats a fact this is a very complicated problem.

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   mikelongposted 13 years ago

   If one looks at the leadership of the cartels, one will find that they are from the Mexican military....and they recruit from within the ranks... 
   
   These same leaders were, largely, trained here in the United States at the School of the Americas at Fort Benning, Georgia...the same place where Army Rangers are trained...
   
   Legalizing weed will not affect the cartels, for they are involved in much more lucrative business....from human trafficking (including a large percentage related to prostitution) and methanphetamine and other heavy drug smuggling...
   
   The weed is mainly a diversion for these others....  We grow the best weed in the world here in the United States....most weed consumed is either domestic or imported from Canada.....not Mexico...

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      vincentfrankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Well said I wish i could write as well .So what do you think about Javier Sicilia.Do you think that his Trail of Tears movemont well make a differace

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         Mariefr2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Vince --
         
         I do think the Javier's movement is making a difference. The more groups like this the better. Hopefully soon, all of Mexico will be working towards a quality life style.

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   Evan G Rogersposted 13 years ago

   Ron Paul and Barney Frank working to fight against the drug cartels -- THE FREEDOM LOVING WAY!!!
   
   http://reason.com/blog/2011/06/22/barne … -paul-will
   
   Go Ron, Go!

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      vincentfrankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Great Imfo and the pot trade is a big part of the cartels activiys.Thank you

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