Which came first, the object or the idea? Abstract concepts such as love, logic, morality, and justice are ideas, i.e., they depend on a being to create their meaning. In this sense, abstractions cannot be discovered but can only follow from the ideas of sentient beings, i.e., be created.
One would have to conclude, then, that sentient beings preceded all abstractions, that objects must precede concepts, and thus ideas cannot be eternal without an eternal object that preceded them.
It then follows that only an object god is possible, as an abstract god would require an object god to precede in order to define the abstraction. So it would seem impossible for god to be both an object and an immaterial being at the same time - the object god would have had to come first. Therefore, the idea of an immaterial god cannot be eternal.
Well I wonder where on Earth you got this idea from? I might as well re-post my response here and make this a relatively short forum.
AKA Winston, Not to deliberately humiliate you on someone else's hub but I do believe you are shockingly mistaken in your definition of both existence and logic. You have also committed fallacies of argument.
"Logic is no more tangible than love" Tangibility has absolutely nothing to do with existence or it's ability to be discovered. Please address this.
"were each scattered all around earth"
2 mistakes, 1. something's existence is not predicated on whether it is "scattered or not", constants/universalities are also said to exist and be discovered, and 2. the fact that something exists on "Earth" in particular has no relevance to it's ability to being discovered. Please also address this.
"You do realize your claim of discovery means that abstractions preceded sentience, don't you"
I fail to see why you asked me this question considering I specifically and clearly stated precisely that in the comment you replied to.
You make the fallacy of comparing "love" to "logic". Love is predicated on the existence of something that is capable of it, logic is not. This is because love is not a constant and is variant, dependent on the organism.
There is only one variant of logic, and that is logic, you may get false logic, but this is not logic, this is fallacy. Logic is the correct way to view how everything works. Gravity, constants and the speed of light in a vacuum all preceded us, and all comprise logic.
philanthropy2012,
To be clear, the meaning of a word is the precise definition for that word as given by a speaker before making his claim. Precision of thought and expression is not a democratic process defined by majority votes or debate over who has the best dictionary. Before one can use a word such as "exist" unambiguously, one must define it unambiguously. When the terms are key, it is up to the speaker to define how the terms are meant.
How is it that love, an abstraction, and rock, an object, can both exist in the same manner by the same definition? That is the quandry that necessitates stricter definitions.
The distinction is that we can reason that it is possible for the rock to have been around before any sentient being lived for the simple reason that sentience is not a requirement for a rock to exist. Love cannot be reasoned to exist before the concept was formed - this is the same with any abstract concept. The conclusion is obvious - only objects can precede the word that describe events (Note, this does not say that events cannot occur simultaneously with objects, just that the naming and descriptions of those events requires sentience.)
That is not to say the events described by abstractions are false, or that there is no such thing as feelings and emotions. It is simply a delineation between what may be thought of as statics (actors) versus dynamics (events). In this sense, logic cannot be demonstrated as a single snapshot - it requires a movie. A rock only requires a single picture.
(Gravity, constants and the speed of light in a vacuum all preceded us)
These are descriptors, not actors. For example, gravity is a description, not an object. Saying a rock falls to the floor describes the action but does not explain the cause. Again, events occur - but to demonstrate the action requires multiple pictures. How can you illustrate "gravity" in a single snapshot? You can't. It requires a series to show the action. So how can an event (a dynamic action) be said to exist in the same manner that a static (an object) exists? This would be like claiming that raindrop is essentially the same as rainstorm - would the audience understand the need to build an ark if the speaker substituted a single object (raindrop) for a dynamic event (rainstorm)?
I grant you the event we term gravity was part of reality prior to humans - but the description we term gravity is a purely human invention. The event preceded humans - the description did not.
Just for the younger readers, what I am saying is:
What is the difference between something that exists like a cat, and a concept such as Logic.
Keep in mind of course that there is only one way of Logic, much like there is only one way of Cat.
This is different from organism specific concepts which AKA Winston mentions which are determined by the organism and the mind that views it, love and justice for example are very subjective.
AKA Winston,
Oh dear lord, the definition of "definition" by definition is the description that is found in a dictionary or dictionary source (check in a dictionary or dictionary source!).
What you are talking about is the degradation of all languages into sheer and utter gibberish. If we had no authority and constant in language then we would never have formed a language in the first place. To get rid of ambiguity of what certain sounds mean that leave our mouths is the entire point of defining words.
I was going to argue how your film analogy is incorrect but it appears that I do not need to. If you concede to "the event preceded humans" but argue that "the description did not" then you have already forfeited your argument.
Something does not need to be described to exist, even for a sentient it just needs to be realised. Much like logic is realised. Much like constants and gravity is realised. To realise something, it has to have been there in the first place, it's as simple as that. If it was not there to realise, we would have created it.
Now for the clincher, in your opening you say abstract concepts need to "be created". Okay, but where there is only one true Logic (one true way in which things work), is it creating those connections that we are doing? Or is it finding them.
You must concede that these connections already existed before sentient life forms came about.
And thus you must concede that we find them. Which is to say they were there in the first place. The connection that an object falls to the largest gravity source is law and was there before we were. Otherwise stated as : the logic that an object falls to the largest gravity source is law and was there before we were.
I would concede to the idea that we create wrong connections and false logic which is as a creation of ours but we do not create logic (actual logic) but actually find it.
Which brings me back to the idea that God can be proved or disproved with logic, on the basis that we know that it is in fact logic.
(Oh dear lord, the definition of "definition" by definition is the description that is found in a dictionary or dictionary source (check in a dictionary or dictionary source!). )
Philanthropy2012,
You are suggesting then that there is only one correct dictionary (the one you believe in) and that this particular dictionary has always defined all words exactly the same as they do now, and so any ambiguity must reside within the word itself and not in its definition?
What a quaint argument.
Saying that a contingency of an event preceded sentience does not mean
that sentient understanding after the fact shows that the after the fact methodlogy of understanding preceded sentience. How can it?
(Something does not need to be described to exist)
Of course not - if it must be described, though, it cannot exist - at least not in the same manner as that which does not have to be described. I can point to a rock and grunt - I don't have to describe it for the viewer to know I am pointing at a rock. I cannot point to a lump of logic - logic must be described.
Here is a clear, precise, and unambiguous definition of exist: physical presence, that which shape and location.
I can use that definition and the audience will never think I am talking about an activity that requires motion.
I can imagine the action of the planets movement about the sun - that does not mean that an orbit existed. Your own definition invalidates the possiblity. Realization.
In order to realize, there must be sentience.
Only objects can possibly be eternal.
Well, Who ever came up with the idea of drying out a leaf from the marjuana plant, lighting it and inhaling the smoke came up with an idea that seems to be eternal. Same with the first guy to point to a cow and say, "See that stuff that calf is sucking out of those things? I'm gonna get me some too." Why do men wear pants and women pants and skirts? Why does the word 'idea' mena what we accept it to mean? I really don't think there's an answer.
This is a question of definition. If 'idea' is treated as an object in conversation, Winston's point is valid. It isn't an object the same way a rock is. It is a process. Think is a verb. Thought is treated as a noun, but it is not the same quality as a rock. I can't point to a thought, though I can refer to one, and it can be argued that this non object can have an effect on an object. (I think to do, then I do)
the question could then be something like 'Does the action 'think' create or discover the idea?'
Well, sort of both. If Winston has an idea that I also come up with independently, but after he did, have I created something new? or have I discovered something that already exists?
But did that idea exist before we did? Our mental processes are unique. How Winston arrives at a conclusion comes from a different chain of experiences and processes. Yet if we come up with the same idea, is that because it existed before either of us? Did we both discover the same thing, or create different identical things? Is there a collective unconscious?
Until we know more about reality, this question is just like the god/no god one: interesting to ponder, not easy to answer.
Winston believes that 'only an object god' is possible. I agree. 'Nothing unreal exists', but the 'who made the causer' question still remains. The actual existence of said 'god' is something I believe in. I won't speak for Winston.
@ Philanthropy
"the definition of "definition" by definition is the description that is found in a dictionary or dictionary source (check in a dictionary or dictionary source!)."
Isn't this rather the same thing as theists saying that the bible is true because the bible says it is?
I think the more we decide what is or is not based on a book, any book, we are limiting the capabilities we have as thinkers.
So do I challenge dictionary definitions? Absolutely. The same way I challenge the bible, the qu'ran, the grand design, origin of species, and etc. etc. Also the same way I challenge adherents of same.
Clarity in discussion is important, so understanding what one means to say when they use a word is the only rational way into a debate. What does it matter if I say 'glokenspiel' or 'toaster' as long as I am able to make clear to you what I mean?
If what I interpret to be love is a collection of actions that you associate with hate, then we'll find that out as we interact, and correct as we go. This is the nature of relationships.
Otherwise, its just: "you're wrong. My book says you are".
All books are fallable. They are written by fallable beings.
cheers
by sibtain bukhari 11 years ago
There is no scientific and logical evidence of self existence of universe, therefore,only logical conclusion is the creator of universe not proving its self existence .
by paarsurrey 13 years ago
Nature is more truthful than scienceScience derives truthfulness from nature and nature derives truth from its creator, the ONE Creator God.
by ayaniv 15 years ago
What does sentience mean?Do plants have sentience?
by mathsciguy 13 years ago
I typically prefer to deal in quantifiable subjects, but this is a thought that resurfaced in my mind recently and was one of the first thoughts that led to my de-conversion from Christianity some years ago.So, how does the idea of hell fit into the supposition that God is, by definition (since God...
by Elizabeth 10 years ago
Can you ever prove something to be true through logic rather than evidence?I see a lot of people trying to use logical arguments to try to prove something is true. A logically sound argument is logically sound. It doesn't mean that the argument is true. Can logic...
by MarieLB 8 years ago
When you use more than one adjective to describe an object, do you put these into any sort?EG: If you wanted to write - "The big, bad wolf. . ." would it sound the same if you were to say "The bad, big wolf?"Do you think that reading and re-reading will tell you how...
Copyright © 2025 The Arena Media Brands, LLC and respective content providers on this website. HubPages® is a registered trademark of The Arena Platform, Inc. Other product and company names shown may be trademarks of their respective owners. The Arena Media Brands, LLC and respective content providers to this website may receive compensation for some links to products and services on this website.
Copyright © 2025 Maven Media Brands, LLC and respective owners.
As a user in the EEA, your approval is needed on a few things. To provide a better website experience, hubpages.com uses cookies (and other similar technologies) and may collect, process, and share personal data. Please choose which areas of our service you consent to our doing so.
For more information on managing or withdrawing consents and how we handle data, visit our Privacy Policy at: https://corp.maven.io/privacy-policy
Show DetailsNecessary | |
---|---|
HubPages Device ID | This is used to identify particular browsers or devices when the access the service, and is used for security reasons. |
Login | This is necessary to sign in to the HubPages Service. |
Google Recaptcha | This is used to prevent bots and spam. (Privacy Policy) |
Akismet | This is used to detect comment spam. (Privacy Policy) |
HubPages Google Analytics | This is used to provide data on traffic to our website, all personally identifyable data is anonymized. (Privacy Policy) |
HubPages Traffic Pixel | This is used to collect data on traffic to articles and other pages on our site. Unless you are signed in to a HubPages account, all personally identifiable information is anonymized. |
Amazon Web Services | This is a cloud services platform that we used to host our service. (Privacy Policy) |
Cloudflare | This is a cloud CDN service that we use to efficiently deliver files required for our service to operate such as javascript, cascading style sheets, images, and videos. (Privacy Policy) |
Google Hosted Libraries | Javascript software libraries such as jQuery are loaded at endpoints on the googleapis.com or gstatic.com domains, for performance and efficiency reasons. (Privacy Policy) |
Features | |
---|---|
Google Custom Search | This is feature allows you to search the site. (Privacy Policy) |
Google Maps | Some articles have Google Maps embedded in them. (Privacy Policy) |
Google Charts | This is used to display charts and graphs on articles and the author center. (Privacy Policy) |
Google AdSense Host API | This service allows you to sign up for or associate a Google AdSense account with HubPages, so that you can earn money from ads on your articles. No data is shared unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy) |
Google YouTube | Some articles have YouTube videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy) |
Vimeo | Some articles have Vimeo videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy) |
Paypal | This is used for a registered author who enrolls in the HubPages Earnings program and requests to be paid via PayPal. No data is shared with Paypal unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy) |
Facebook Login | You can use this to streamline signing up for, or signing in to your Hubpages account. No data is shared with Facebook unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy) |
Maven | This supports the Maven widget and search functionality. (Privacy Policy) |
Marketing | |
---|---|
Google AdSense | This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy) |
Google DoubleClick | Google provides ad serving technology and runs an ad network. (Privacy Policy) |
Index Exchange | This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy) |
Sovrn | This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy) |
Facebook Ads | This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy) |
Amazon Unified Ad Marketplace | This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy) |
AppNexus | This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy) |
Openx | This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy) |
Rubicon Project | This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy) |
TripleLift | This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy) |
Say Media | We partner with Say Media to deliver ad campaigns on our sites. (Privacy Policy) |
Remarketing Pixels | We may use remarketing pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to advertise the HubPages Service to people that have visited our sites. |
Conversion Tracking Pixels | We may use conversion tracking pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to identify when an advertisement has successfully resulted in the desired action, such as signing up for the HubPages Service or publishing an article on the HubPages Service. |
Statistics | |
---|---|
Author Google Analytics | This is used to provide traffic data and reports to the authors of articles on the HubPages Service. (Privacy Policy) |
Comscore | ComScore is a media measurement and analytics company providing marketing data and analytics to enterprises, media and advertising agencies, and publishers. Non-consent will result in ComScore only processing obfuscated personal data. (Privacy Policy) |
Amazon Tracking Pixel | Some articles display amazon products as part of the Amazon Affiliate program, this pixel provides traffic statistics for those products (Privacy Policy) |
Clicksco | This is a data management platform studying reader behavior (Privacy Policy) |