If I ask a christian to explain why their God is all powerful, the first thing they say is "Because the bible says so. Then they open it to a page and try to show me, as if it's going to miraculously change my mind. It's crazy old gibberish, not worth anything more than a historic, cultural study.
mischeviousme- I hope you change your mind before its too late. God loves you.
The God that saved my daughter when she should have died.
That's eliminated all hint of doubt for me. I know He's all powerful because I've experienced His power, both in the form of direct miracles and in more subtle but no less profound ways.
I don't need the Bible to believe God exists. It just reaffirms what I already know.
The bible is completely insane and irrelivant to our current situation...
What's interesting is that although the Bible itself has been much adulterated and is the product of prejudice selection by the Church, the message of Love is what it boils down to. The small distinctions and differences are meaningless. If we were to change the name God to Love, which is the real essence of the spirit, we would likely have no problems. Religion gets in the way of brotherhood.
I totally agree... Leave out the rituals and doctrines and replace them with open forums. Only then will one know the true essence of the matter. If we see the concept behind each individual angle, then what is there to argue? What reason has one to kill?
What about the 'god' who killed those lakhs of people?
why do you say god saved your daughter? I don't know what happened but surely you should thank the doctors if it was medical, not an imaginary guy in the sky
Thank the doctors? Why should he, everything went well? If anything had gone wrong, certainly the fault was with the doctors, not his fairy.
Dude, you need to get right with Vishnu. Read the Upanishads!
Either you have not made contact with very many Christians or the statements you opened this forum with ain't nothing but a bunch of jive-talkin'.
First, there is no such thing as "their God" or "our God." There is God, period. Or, God is God.
Second, the vast majority of Christians, including yours truly, do not base their belief in God on what is written in The Holy Bible. Their belief stems from what is often described as blind faith, and/or from their having the "faith of a child."
Third, "crazy gibberish" is in the eye of the beholder.
Just as it is your opinion that belief in God is "crazy gibberish, many people are of the opinion that those who espouse that God does not exist are talking a bunch of "crazy gibberish."
Thinking and intelligent people know that arguing over whether or not God exists is nothing but a Mexican standoff. It is a conflict that will never end and in which there will never be a victor.
Surely if there is a God, he would reveal himself and end all the debates and arguments?
God continually reveals Himself.
If that were not the case, you would not even be functioning.
It is just that many are profoundly unaware that He is always there, and here, and every place else.
And that is because they have been so thoroughly brainwashed to believe in only that which they can see, they are blind. In fact, there are a whole lot of people on this planet who should be feeling their way around with red-tipped white canes while carrying tin cups in their hands.
That's ridiculous, how does God make someone function? Tell me, what exactly does God do to make a creature breathe, move, eat, live..?
I'm afraid it's not those people who have been thoroughly brainwashed is it, you're the one believing in something which, to any rational person, is clearly not true.
Hey, bro, keep it civil.
I don't know about you, but my mama taught me to never label what other people say as being "ridiculous."
And similar to something I stated before in this forum, being "rational" is in the eye of the beholder.
For example, a number of individuals who have discriminatory attitudes towards others consider themselves to be "rational persons."
Nothing against you, just an opinion, feel free to say whatever you want about my views. It's just the way no religous person can give any straight answer is quite annoying
Welcome to the world, my friend. This planet is full of things that are "quite annoying."
And so far as your saying, "...no religious person can give any straight answer...," my response to that is, give me a "straight answer" that God does not exist.
School me on the facts. I am very anxious to hear them.
That argument doesn't work though: It's not up to someone to prove that something doesn't exist, it's up to the person making the claim to prove themselves. If i said to you there is an invisible alien flying round the room behind you, surely it would make sense that I should have to prove that rather than you prove it's not?
With all due respect, your logic is way off base.
By coming right out and stating that God does not exist, you are contending that His non-existance is a certainty.
Thus, you have an obligation to prove that what you say is certain actually is certain.
Not really- Do i have to prove everything isn't true? If you make a claim, it's your job to prove it, and until then it's not an atheists job to prove anything.
I assume you've heard the "invisible pink unicorn" argument? I'm saying to you now that there is an invisible pink unicorn sitting on my head right now. Now none of us can see it, so surely it's my job to prove it's true, and until then why should you ever believe something when there's no evidence for it?
No, my man, it is not I who has to prove anything. It is you who has all the proving to do.
That is true because, as I stated earlier in this forum, my believing that God exists grows out of blind faith on my part. In other words, I cannot prove that God exists, but I firmly believe that He exists.
And the reason why I, nor anyone else, can prove that God exists is His existence is far beyond anything that human beings can comprehend.
Furthermore, you do not have any business telling others that the way they think is "ridiculous."
I do not have a problem with your being an atheist; thus, you should not have any problem with my being a "believer."
If God was beyond comprehension, you wouldn't know a thing about it or have any kind of understanding of what it is.
During my many years of existing in this realm, I have learned that a great many people are vastly incapable of grasping that which is "deep."
I've been from one side of my consciousness to the other and yet it's borders grow. If anything is God, it's this beautiful ability to learn.
Actually, I agree with you.
For example, what many describe as the "beautiful wonders of nature," my description of those very same things is God.
What of the beauty of percieving it? Does one need a God for that?
Let us get one thing straight.
I do not have "a god."
God is not a deity. God is God, period.
And why do you have such a problem with my believing in God? I do not have a problem with your NOT believing in Him.
I don't have a problem with it-however if you come onto a discussion that is about religion, you can't expect to not have some sort of discussion about religion, which inevitably is going to involve different opinions, and my opinion happens to be that blind faith is ridiculous- sorry.
Also, by that logic, why test anything-let's just have blind faith in everything we do and see how well we do then.
Hey, man, you're trying to change the subject.
I have not been talking with you about religion. I have been talking with you about God.
God is God, and religion is a man-made thing, like Major League Baseball and the National Basketball Association.
And check it out. I strongly suspect that the reason why you believe that blind faith is "ridiculous" is you have never been tested. You have never been confronted by a vicious gang of home boys in a "ghetto" late at night.
I'm not changing the subject, you're saying i can't call someone's views ridiculous, I'm saying yes I can, that's essentially what a debate comes down to.
Anyway.. yes, God is religion- no religion, no God.
Why does being confronted by a vicious gang late at night make you believe more? Why would God create people like that?
I did not say that you "can't" call someone's views ridiculous. And that is because by the mere fact that you have the ability to talk and write, you CAN call someone's views ridiculous anytime you so please.
Now, I believe what you intended to express is, I said that you MAY NOT call someone's views ridiculous, or that I said, you do not have my permission to call someone else's views ridiculous.
Well, by implying that, you are putting words into my mouth.
I did not tell you NOT to say someone's views are ridiculous. What I said is you do not have any business telling anyone something like that. And the reaons why is, that is not cool.
You are violating one of the basic rules of being a real hip dude and an all-around gentleman.
I deeply apologise, and hope that you can forgive me for violating the basic rules of being a real hip dude and all around gentleman. If possible I would like to learn from the master in this matter, yourself.
Yours sincerely, Jamiew12310.
I'm proud and honoured to be known as a friend of yours, my good sir.
This juvenile bickering is ceasing now, goodbye.
I do, but I don't understand the logic behind a religion, at least anymore. It was a good starting point, but I couldn't let myself dwell on human interpretations. Come on though... There are actually people that believe Noah's ark was litteraly true. How is that even rationaly possible?
There's logic behind the bible, it's just outdated and overused.
The Holy Bible, Hebrew Bible, and Koran does give a reader an insight of what life was like 2000 years ago. To get a better sense, take a look at the crazy laws today that exists in some of the conservative Muslim Middle Eastern Countries. These books are no way a history book. These stories of creation, floods, heroic acts are not different from other ancient stories that exists in other ancient cultures, (Rome, Greece, Egypt, Early Americans, etc.). The idea of an afterlife and judgement found in these books have a foundation based on the ancient Egyptian religious beliefs. Only difference is that the ancient Jew thought it was easier to worship one god instead on several.
True... But, how can anyone prove the validity of their claims? To teach them as fact to anyone, is completely insane...
How can you say that they are insane? How many TV evangelists have taken a total myth and used it to live a life of luxury, raking in the megabucks every day? That takes smarts, not insanity. Even the "student" goes away happy, if poorer, and the "teacher" is rich beyond anything a normal person can dream of.
By being insanely greedy, he fed off of the insanely naive.
It's the idea of telling a lie, the wilder-the better, often enough and loud enough, pretty soon people will believe it. At what age did we all figure out that Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny are were imaginary and how did we come to that concusion? Doesn't God fit in that same catagory?
Children put away these ideas on their own....unlike the idea God begin and persist especially through and by the children.
I grew up watching the Adams family. I don't get the connection between you and the avatar. I must protest. It is not a good fit. Please find something else that represents you better. You ain't Gomez, Jack!
You can use this. It is more apropos.
Intense Introspection - mixed media by WD Curry 111 (1976)
Perhaps, it takes the mind of a criminal to do such things, considering that you or I could easily do the same thing, bilking the gullible out of their hard earned money. Lack of morals may not necessarily equate to smarts.
But it takes smarts to bilk that much money out of the marks.
Ever watch "Worlds Dumbest Criminal"? They don't get far without the smarts...
I would agree it takes a little smarts, but not so much smarts as it takes a whole lot of lack of morals and ethics.
For example, you yourself are educated and could easily sit down and figure out ways to bilk the gullible based on what you know about other charlatans and what you know about belief systems. However, you wouldn't do that because you have the smarts to understand the morals and ethics of such an undertaking.
If those who do bilk the gullible had the smarts to understand morals and ethics, they might not undertake such an enterprise.
It''s not so smart for Forum Frogs to swim in this pond.
Ok, I've gotta admit, I don't get the frog thing either.
She's calling me a forum frog because I maintain mutliple threads at a time, although I'm just going ahead with continuity in my debates.
Settle down. No one is calling you a forum frog. Follow the threads. That's all for a fat, lazy forum frog. You have hubs, and entertain discussion. That's cool. You go where you want, and do what you please, and it's all good. No one gets hurt. Maybe you like working on your moves. Who knows, maybe you are saving your best posts in a collection for an illustrated, leather bound coffee table book.
I am just practicing up on my forum frog gigging. You live in Florida. You know what is coming up soon.
They can count your references for local advertising gigs. Hello? Frog frog frog.
I love frog legs... If you grew up in Fl., you gotta love everything you can eat here.
Yeah, and that might come in handy in the near future. Chow!
I can live off the land with nothing more than a rope, pocket knife, string, flint and tinder and magnifying glass. That's what Florida taught me, I didn't need a teacher, just someone to point out the tools. Unfortunately for some, the bible is not a useful tool.
Unless you need kindling and there are no small sticks or scrub around.
I'd use it for that. A magnifying glass will catch it on fire.
Yup and it'd be the first book on the shelf I'd use, since there are better books to read and I still need to be entertained.
Don't get out much? A Forum Frog has no hubs. It hops around or lays in wait for the unsuspecting with its sticky tongue. It feeds on the small, weak and hapless. Sure, one may be a big Forum Frog in a little pond, but that just makes for good bait in the over all scheme of things.
Forum Frog tastes like chicken!
People can be mislead. They can be unknowing. What does it really hurt if they believe it literally? There are worse things.
I'm a believer, but I can't stand legalism, titles, "religion" or anything else that is someone else's interpretation of what I should believe. I have my own experiences to dwell on and they were enough to make me believe. I'm not into forcing other's to believe just the same, but I do hope for you and anyone else that the truth is found in your eyes in this life time. That's all.
I understand the frustration behind "religion". I don't think I've ever been mad at an athiest. I've been upset with several believers though. I think I'm more disgusted now than I was before in this area. It's sad, but it's not the truth that is TRUTH. It's also frustrating to see people base their opinions on other people's opinions instead of having an open mind and diving in to find out for yourself.
I know what you mean. Without the Holy Spirit, the Bible doesn't come alive. The Bible isn't God, it is a book about God. God can't be contained in a book. God can't be contained at all.
That's why we sing!
Miscieviousme, how are your ideas, sinse you believe in a higher power, any less insane than believing in a christian god?
A higher power is not a reference to an individual entity governing or as something to worship. A higher power is a reference to a power within each of us, the highest and most noble power that has ever existed. The power that is unique and completely without explanation, though poems and songs have been written to its edification. The highest power known is Love. You can't worship it. You can't destroy it or create it. You can never run out of it and you will always have more no matter how much you give away. It's the binding force behind all of creation.
Yes, I believe it is. It's the highest power to which we can aspire. The God the Christians speak of is Love as defined by his prophet Jesus who, when asked which of the commands is the greatest, he replied 'love'.
I'd like to hear your reasoning, though.
Love is an emotion. It has no ability to create humans, the universe, the planets etc.
According to some psychologists, the primary emotions include anticipation, joy, trust, fear, surprise, sadness, disgust, and anger. They talk about collections of these basic emotions which create combined emotions and which include optimism, love, submission, awe, disapproval, remorse, contempt, and aggressiveness.
The highest measurable frequency scientists have been able to record occurs when a person is in a state of love. This would indicate that love itself may be a basic emotion rather than a combination of joy and acceptance or in its purest form, may not be an emotion at all.
Since there is no explanation for its cause nor effect, it's likely not an emotion. As far as creating universes, I have no proof one way or the other. Neither, I suspect, do those who claim the other 'higher power' created any of it.
Your logic implies that humans who create other humans are a higher power though I take your point. You're, of course, referring to creating a universe from nothing.
We are talking about two different things. I am talking about a creator god, and i suspect that you know that.
Yes, of course. And I believe that the Creator of the Universe is a spirit made of pure love. You call it God, I call it Love, as did Jesus himself. Those who choose to envision an entity who is all powerful, called God, believe the same as I do. I just think we are subject to our own laws. What we do defines and determines what we become. This is the same thing the Bible teaches. This great guidebook is very skewed because of the influence of the early Church but it, neverthless, teaches us about love above all things.
Metaphors such as 'father' and 'sin' were added later. The father of Jesus was Love. I know this is a bit difficult to wrap your head around, but it's a faceless entity of power no different then the name God - a faceless entity of power. And yes, it can create worlds, not with a wave of the hand as religious folk envision.
The numeric equivalent for God in ancient hebrew, means the same thing as love. Look it up, there are multiple supporting articles. Though these articles are published by scientific research, not crazy bible validation research.
Oh yes people are certainly going to be convinced by gemantria
The bible dictates the religion you so practice... Throw it away or give it away. If ever you've read the bible from cover to cover, why read it again? Especially when there are other books to read as well?
I am not a christian. Ive read plenty of books, including the bible. Although i dont believe it in a literal sense it still holds value for me.
How is there any value in the intangible? Any substance? How can one value a material/conceptual object?
Easily. Just because intangible things dont have value for you doesnt mean they dont for other people.
I asked how one could hold value on such a thing, not what others think. Why do you believe in the intangible, other than your own personal perception? Can you say it in words or is it necessary to be vague? How is there any value in words, other than the meaning one gives them?
I wasnt trying to be vague im just not sure what you are asking.
I hold personal value in what i get from reading books like the bible. It gives me insight into how other people think,and religion in general. I enjoy it. Is that a good enough answer for you?
That is hardly close to what i said.
Fit in with what?
I would love to accuse you of lacking comprehention skills, but i know thats not the case. But im certainly not going to play your game.
Believing in god doesnt mean someone is insane. They might be wrong, but that doesnt equate to insanity.
How do we kill stupidity? It is a formadible advesary.
IF stupidity were a tree growing in our back yard?
Do we examine each leaf and paint it with a different stroke of the brush?
Do we pluck one leaf at a time?
If there were a thing called a stupid pill. and if someone were to have been slipping us one with breakfast each morning; after a week would we still be smart enough to recognize that we were becoming stupid?
Perhaps the same way we kill arrogance and pretentiousness.
And how is that ,,, ignore it and it goes away?
Accept it as a human flaw. Accepting flaws instead of denying the flaws allows one to benefit instead of suffer from those flaws.
Humans are naturally stupid, arrogant and presumptuous to varying degrees. I doubt any of those traits can be killed
And it wouldn't hurt a thing if we awoke each morning acknowledging this fact and then go out into the day with confidence that we can meet the chanlenges sufficiently to come to the end of the day. Helping others when we can ... cause we all need help from time to time.
Stupidity may not be growing on a tree, but it is present on almost every page of any given holy book.
You can take it from there.
I say this: The nature of Energy, that is Einsteinian Energy, as in E=MC2 dictates in the final analysis as this; EVERYTHING is a manifestation of energy...including consciousness. If consciousness, as in awareness, exists, then it must be included in that portion of the equation concerning matter. Life itself as in all life, is a direct result of the state of energy, every single thing which exists is inclusive in the equation. Remove energy from the equation, and everything evaporates like a dream, like a mirage. We cannot at this time conclude that the first state of energy is not consciously aware. If it is....then ther be GOD!!! Even Hawking must conclude that a gravitational energy is responsible for the universe...I believe that he is in error when he concludes that God's services were not required. Again...there be God. Not because the bible says so, and not because I say so. Haven't seen God, but he or it, or whatever...proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's there.
"Why do you believe in God?" "Because the bible says so"
"But why do you believe the bible?" "Because It's the word of god"
That's basically religions argument..
"Why do you believe in God?" "Because the bible says so"
"But why do you believe the bible?" "Because It's the word of god"
That's basically religions argument..
Why do i believe in God? How was your world created without a creator? Why do i believe in the bible? It's one of the oldest book of ancient times that proves the human psyche. People are always lost in translation and literally take these stories. as we all know, it's his-story. we're not there to prove otherwise, are we?
There is a great deal of information on how our world was formed, and it had absolutely nothing to do with a creator.
Old and ancient usually equates to ignorant and superstitious, just like the bible.
Not my argument. Not a christian. Belief is insane? Do you believe in evolution? Do you believe in the Big Bang? Do you believe in yourself? I think you don't know what to believe, or that you believe things which will be proven false somewhere down the road.
And this one guy created every single blade of grass on the earth, and every single star in the universe did he?
A Troubled Man wrote ...
There is a great deal of information on how our world was formed, and it had absolutely nothing to do with a creator.
I agree that science has discovered many, many things about how the earth was formed right up to the moment of creation. And I see no reason to dispute them.
But where did that Big Bang come from, if not from another plane of existence?
I do not have a problem calling whatever else is over there heaven and God.
Can I describe or define it? NO, cause I don't remember seeing it.
Of course not, you've made it quite evident you don't even understand anything science has discovered.
Of course you don't, a direct result of not understanding science.
I was agreeing with you.
as you say, I don't know anything compared to you.
Pray tell .. what was the catalist which caused the big bang?
we don't know what the catalYst was yet-but we do know a lot more about the big bang than we ever will about God.
When we find the catalist for the big bang we will have found God!
He came from another place, another time. Another dimension. God is the sum total of all energy, including that thing we call consciousness. If man is the apex of universal existence, then by default...man IS god.
Based on what we know, it most likely is an answer science will discover and very unlikely an answer a believer will conjure from his good book or be revealed by his gods.
Does that help?
It means whatever you can imagine it means. The act of observing the experiment, changes the experiment. Awareness of what I am saying, the full implications of E=MC2, is what will lead us all to the next step in the development of mankind. Unfortunately, I already know that what I am implying will fall on deaf ears. It's simply a fact of my nature to make the attempt.
Even the greatest minds that have ever lived will admit that they know not from whence their inspiration came.
Again, you've used a lot of words but said absolutely nothing..
You are one of the few people on here who actually takes time to think and analyze what is going on in the world.
mischeivious...One must, in the very least believe that the sun will rise tomorrow, even though the facts all tell us that is simply not so. There will indeed one day come a time when the sun will surely set on earth for the very last time.
the facts don't tell us that? We know exactly why the sun rises..
...and that the sun will one day burn out...slow down, dude. Less coffee. Read the comment before you end up sounding like a dork.
EVERYBODY "believes" something. Some believe that if they brown nose their boss, they'll get further than by not brown nosing the boss. Maybe, the boss doesn't like brown nosers. Maybe God is like that.
IF the earth still exists when the sun burns out...how can it rise the next day....unless of course, the sun is actually THE SON! Then, it would still take 3 DAYS!. Can you swim?
Everybody believes something that is true, not something that is fiction. I've read Harry Potter, but I don't believe that an evil wizard is attempting to take over the world.
Everything is god. You, me, the deep blue sea. The galaxies, stars and Mars. From here to the bottomless deep. Every single speck of dust, and every single rock and tree. There is no where you can look, feel, be, that isn't god complete. E=MC2. Pure, 100%, unadulterated Einstein. Now, how did I get here from THERE?
The 'E' in the equation actually stands for Einstein.
The definition of God is "The creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority"
So you actually don't believe in God, you just refuse to believe that you are just a person, I'm just a person and the deep blue sea is just water. I don't really see how any of those things is the creator of the universe and source of all moral authority?
I charge for tutoring in basic physics. You are caught in a time vortex. The past is actually the future, and now hasn't happened yet. Tuned in? Turned on? Dropped out? JOIN UP!!! See Afghanistan on an all expenses paid vacation, compliments of your Uncle Sam. Yo, yeah you! With the funky porno mustache, why do you think that there is no proof that God doesn't exist...just theories. Hint: Theories are as unprovable as God, until, and only when, they are proven. One burden of proof is that everything must be duplicated under controlled conditions. How can one prove how the universe was created or came into being if you can't duplicate the experiment. Why do so many people believe in evolution when many creatures alive now have undergone little or no change at all in OVER 60 million years? Are you an animal...like all the other animals? You are like a Who. Maybe Horton is listening...maybe not, but If you are a Who on a speck of dust, floating in a universe, the major portion of which is UNDETECTABLE (Dark Matter) then WHO CARES IF HORTON'S there or not. And don't presume to tell me what I believe, because you didn't bring a big enough gun to this O.K. Corral
You're overthinking everything way too much. Look, we are a species on a tiny rock in a tiny part of a massive universe, that is it, there is no more meaning to life, we're just a biological species who evolved from a different one.
The point of evolution theories is that we have EVIDENCE. You clearly don't understand, evolution has been proven with 99% certainty, yet there isn't a speck of proof of religion. Fair enough, we can't be completely sure either is true, but any sensible person will see that the one with overwhelmingly more evidence is by far more likely to be.
...and we are the most unnatural creature on this, possibly every planet. We drive around in cars, all snassed up, lookin' for a date on a saturday night to go to the movies and munch on popcorn while copping a free feel. On the quantum end of things, there may be billions of variations of this reality occurring on different timelines. That is called string theory, and beyond that is Brane Theory which holds that all those strings from the previous theory are attached to a membrane. Starting to sound more like a life form...but that's our universe. The strings each have their own vibrational frequency....and that is WHY we are here. So... I take it that you don't buy that we are god, huh? Well...if we invented God...then WE ARE GOD, and there is no one to tell us we aren't. You aren't thinking enough.
Missed that part about the you and me god? LESS COFFEE!
Please remind me what that part was?
You're arguing with a teenager here, and you've come up with absolutely nothing that makes sense to back up your argument, and all you can seem to talk about is coffee?
I just think it's sad that so many otherwise intelligent people spend their whole lives believing in something so ridiculous.
Still doesn't answer the nature of energy. In E=MC2 E is equal to all matter. If consciousness exists in a matterial form, that is, you and I, then consciousness is somewhere in the equation. Everything returns from where it originated. We will too, but, the universe re-cycles everything. Ruled strictly by mathematics, to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction dictates that, just like a massive row of dominoes, once the first one falls, eventually, they will all fall in turn. It can even be predicted exactly when any particular domino will fall, but fall it surely will. It's fall is inevitable. Not only is it predictable....it is immutable. Destiny and Fate. Remem,ber that a "body in motion tends to stay in motion, and a body at rest tends to remain at rest" so, if this is true, and it is accepted as such, then the possibility that this universe was ever in a state of non-motion or non-existence is pretty darned slim. I said that if you know yourself, then you know God...and, by the way...I am a Creationary evolutionist...or an evolutionary creationist.
If "the possibility that the universe was ever in non-existence is pretty darned slim", surely that rules out creationism straight away? There has to be nothing there for the creation to happen.
That depends on exactly what the universe is. We see it from our perspective, but if it were possible to stand outside of it and look back...we might be surprised at the possibilities of what we might be looking at. It is said that Newton "discovered" gravity. It existed long before him...he merely quantified it. Columbus didn't discover America. The natives knew it was here. This whole reality is shot with such absurdities that I'm surprised any of us can think at all. If evolution is Right on, then why is incest so dangerous genetically. I don't agree with the bible either. I'm not a christian.
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Recently I wrote a hub on faith and imagination. Since I was interested in hearing others opinions on how we should use faith in our imagination I started a thread on this forum. Unfortunately it was high-jacked and the topic at hand was not able to be discussed. So this is basically my second...
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