Top Five College Basketball Programs
They are the best!
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Who is the best of the best?
UCLA. North Carolina. Duke. Kentucky. Indiana. Kansas. Arizona. Connecticut. Michigan. UNLV. Georgetown. Louisville. Michigan State. For college basketball, these teams have represented the best of the best. All are undeniably great programs, but which are the five best programs in Men’s College Basketball?
Even a computer loaded with statistical data couldn’t easily answer this question, because imbedded in the answer is subjective qualities. It is easy to begin with regular season and NCAA Tournament records and simply ask: which programs are the most successful? That shouldn’t be the only criteria, however. Other standards include determining their impact on college basketball. Who were the great players and coaches? What players achieved success in the NBA, or as coaches of other teams? Did their coaches, players and teams change the game, and if so, how? To some degree these are measurable factors, but in other ways they are not. Just as naming the best college basketball player or players of all time will always be subject to debate, so will naming the best teams. I will throw my opinions out there and list, in order, my “vote” for the top college basketball programs in Men’s College Basketball. In order, they are:
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1. North Carolina. Roy Williams has achieved unparalleled success at North Carolina, even surpassing the legendary Dean Smith. Two titles in five years gave them five NCAA Championships, trailing only UCLA and Kentucky while tying Indiana for trophies. Their Tournament resume also includes six consecutive appearances in the tournament, 18 Final Four appearances (they are tops in this category) and 15 Final Four victories. They are third behind Kentucky and Kansas in all-time victories and the first program to reach 100 NCAA Tournament wins. Star athletes from their program include Michael Jordan, James Worthy, Sam Perkins (who all played together), Phil Ford, Bob McAdoo, Charlie Scott, Brad Daugherty, Mitch Kupchak, Walter Davis, Rasheed Wallace, Vince Carter, and too many more to name. Coach Dean Smith held the record for all-time victories by a coach until recently passed by Bob Knight, and Coach Roy Williams coached at Kansas with great success for 15 years before returning home. Larry Brown was also a Carolina graduate, and his coaching record included stops at Kansas and UCLA, as well as a plethora of professional teams. The Tar Heels notched their 2,000th victory all-time in March 2010; the second team to accomplish this goal.
2. Kentucky. They hadn't made a Final Four appearance in ten years until Coach John Calipari took over and led the Wildcats to consecutive appearances, culminating in their eighth NCAA Championship. This Final Four drought slips their rankings as one of the top five programs on my list to all of number two. They own the record for total victories and possess eight NCAA Championships, 19 Final Four victories and 111 Tournament victories. The list of Kentucky basketball coaches is impressive and includes Adolph Rupp, Rick Pitino, Tubby Smith, Eddie Sutton, John Calipari and Joe B. Hall. Star athletes from the Kentucky program include Dan Issel, Sam Bowie, Kyle Macy, Kenny Walker, John Wall, Anthony Davis, Kevin Grevey, Tayshaun Prince, Jack Givens, Rick Robey, Ron Mercer, Rajon Rondo, and Mel Turpin. Pat Riley, one of the greatest coaches in the history of the NBA, came from Kentucky. In December 2009, Kentucky became the first college basketball program to win 2,000 games.
3. Kansas. Bill Self followed in the footsteps of coaching legends to bring Kansas a third NCAA championship in 2008, and currently has the highest winning percentage of all Kansas coaches—no small feat since Roy Williams won over 80% of his games there. First of all schools in conference championships with 55, second in total victories behind Kentucky, and currently leading the nation with 23 consecutive NCAA Tournament appearances, Kansas has perhaps the richest basketball history of any school. Dr. James Naismith, the inventor of the game, was KU’s first basketball coach. Coaches including Phog Allen, Dean Smith, Adolph Rupp, Ralph Miller, and Mark Turgeon attended the University of Kansas, and its list of players count Paul Pierce, Wilt Chamberlain, Danny Manning, Jo Jo White, Darnell Valentine, Kirk Hinrich, Raef LaFrentz, Bill Bridges, Walt Wesley, Bud Stallworth, Dave Robisch, Nick Collison, Thomas Robinson and Drew Gooden among their ranks. A 33-win season in 2010 gave KU's program more than 2,000 wins all-time. The only schools to get there faster are listed above.
4. UCLA. The true legends of the game passed through UCLA. John Wooden was the architect of a program that was unrivaled for over a decade, and his accomplishments will never be duplicated. Ten national championships in twelve years and 11 titles overall staggers the imagination. Three consecutive Final Four appearances in 2006-2008 elevates them to second in Final Four Games played and first in victories, with an astonishing 25 wins in 32 games played. Although “only” seventh in all-time victories, the excellence of this program spans the last fifty years and UCLA’s impact on the game is second to none. Players that attended UCLA includes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Walton, Jamaal Wilkes, Gail Goodrich, Marques Johnson, Richard Washington, Sidney Wicks, Curtis Rowe, Lucius Allen, Dave Meyers, Steve Patterson, Kevin Love, Kiki Vandeweghe, Henry Bibby, David Greenwood, Russell Westbrook, Walt Hazzard and Swen Nater. Their success includes an incredible 88 game winning streak, and during that time they dominated college basketball to an extent unparalleled in college basketball history.
5. Duke. Mike Krzyzewski’s accomplishments at Duke are unbelievable. Duke is fourth in all-time victories, third in NCAA Tournament victories, third in Final Four appearances and victories, and fifth in NCAA championships with four. All four titles were won under Coach K’s guidance, including two consecutive titles in 1991 and 1992. Duke was seemingly a permanent fixture in the Final Four with five consecutive appearances between 1988 and 1992, and 14 appearances overall. In the 14 appearances they won 15 times. Duke has fielded teams with such great players as Johnny Dawkins, Christian Laettner, Danny Ferry, Grant Hill, Bobby Hurly, Gene Banks, Mike Gminski, Shane Battier, Shelden Williams, Jeff Mullins, Elton Brand and Carlos Boozer. Their coaching lineage includes the great Chuck Daly, Johnny Dawkins, and Tommy Amaker. They have provided us with Jay Bilas, whose calm and rational analysis perfectly counterbalances Dick Vitale and makes him one of the true greats in sports broadcasting.
Honorable Mention: Indiana. Tucked in perfectly between John Wooden’s reign at UCLA and Mike Krzyzewski’s at Duke, Bob Knight’s legacy at Indiana can’t be understated, and he personally lifts the University of Indiana to lofty enough heights to almost make the list. The last undefeated season in college basketball belongs to Knight, as does three NCAA championships (out of five for the school). Their 12 Final Four victories in eight appearances are stellar, as are their 36 trips to the NCAA Tournament and 61 victories. They failed to make my top five primarily because of the hard times fallen upon after Knight left Indiana. Although they made the NCAA title game the next year under Mike Davis, after Knight’s players left the level of excellence could not be maintained, and they are at their lowest point in decades.
There you have it, my friends. While Indiana definitely heads the second five, it is more difficult to establish a rank for the rest of the folks, but I will try. The next five is:
6. Indiana.
7. Louisville.
8. Syracuse.
9. Arizona.
10. Michigan State.
Louisville's stake to their claim as a top ten program was bolstered by their return to the Final Four in 2012. Syracuse spent most of 2012 with North Carolina as the only major rival to Kentucky's dominance. Michigan State also had a strong 2012, solidifying their annual place among the best of the best. Arizona's place on this list has been in jeopardy for awhile, and it is not impossible that a program like Connecticut might supplant them in this list. UConn's recent success has been tarnished by transgressions within the program, however, and for now the Arizona Wildcat's are still in my top ten.
Comments, anyone?
Make your voice heard!
Which University has the all-time best basketball program?
Comments
AUTHORjeolmoz2, thanks for your comments. I agree that it can't be easy to be Bob Knight's buddy for decades, and it has to be a testament to Coach K that he has accomplished this, along with his other tremendous feats.
Thanks again.
Mike
I like Duke. Coach K has been running Duke Basketball flawlessly for more than thirty years and has been personally selected to defend the honor of United States Basketball in more than one occasion. He conducts interviews, after a win or a lost, with the same gentleman's dignity.
Personally, I feel that his greatest accomplishment to date is the fact that he has been able to remain friends with that sociopath, Bobby Knight for all these years.
- AUTHOR
UK fan, if Kentucky continues to play the way they have for the last few seasons, I will agree with you. They are very deserving, although I am still giving the edge to Carolina right now.
Thanks for your comments.
Mike
- AUTHOR
Jay, I agree with you about UNC and Kentucky being #1 and #2, but I believe Kansas has a greater legacy and impact on the game of basketball than Duke and deserves the number three spot. Except for some good years in the 60's, Duke's greatest is primarily the product of one man--Coach K. Like UCLA with John Wooden and (to some degree) Indiana with Bob Knight, it is difficult to categorize Duke as an all-time great team when their greatness is primarily defined by one man and one era--however long that era has lasted.
I also look to other factors to determine the impact and legacy of a program--for example, does everyone realize that current Coach Calipari of Kentucky was a graduate assistant for Kansas for a year? Who remembers that Carolina Coach Roy Williams coached at Kansas for fifteen years? Who remembers that former Kentucky Coach Adolph Rupp and former Carolina Coach Dean Smith were college players at Kansas? Or that James Naismith, the inventor of the game, also coached at KU?
KU has the legacy to hang with all of these teams, and that is why I have listed them above Duke and UCLA.
I think we are pretty much in agreement about who the best teams are, though--even if we don't completely agree on the order--right?
KENTUCKY HAS SHOWN THAT THEY ARE ALWAYS A NATIONAL POWERHOUSE , EVERY YEAR. THEY DESERVE NO.1
let me correct myself. i meant unc is the only program to play for a ncca title in every decade since the 1940's.no other program can hang their hat on that consistency.they also have 4 coaches in the naismith hall of fame based on what they accomplished at unc. kentucky has some shortcomings to be #1 on this list which include: having a dreadful head to head record vs dean smith and a losing record to unc. 1 f4 in the 1980s and 1 in the 2000s.kentucky was #1 around the new century but lost that to unc since williams established unc again.
i disagree with you on kansas.
MY TOP 5
1 UNC
2 KENTUCKY
3 DUKE
4 KANSAS
5 UCLA
6 INDIANA
unc only team toappear in ncaa title game since there even was an ncaa tourney. 18 f4s and no academic problems t all their hall of fame coaches and players. nuff said
- AUTHOR
Tony, I appreciate what you're saying--I have total respect for Kentucky and it's storied program. They just pounded Kansas this week, emphasizing their strength and ability. While I am sticking with my rankings for the moment, who knows? ...things could change......
Thanks for stopping by.
Mike
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Sorry, but UK is the obvious choice for best all time program.
1. Most all time victories
2. 2nd most championships
3. Most tourney appearences
4. More coaches with a championship than any other school (shows how good the program as a whole is rather than the dominance of one coach *cough* UCLA *cough*)
5. Best win to loss ratio than any other school
6. More sweet sixteens and elite eights than any other school
'Nuff Said
- AUTHOR
Thanks for the kind words, Jake. I am a big fan of college basketball and enjoy watching all the teams on this list. I understand completely how you feel about Duke as a Carolina fan, however. Jayhawks tend to feel the same way about the Missouri Tigers.
I appreciate your stopping by and adding your thoughts. Take care.
Mike
- AUTHOR
Ballfan, thanks for reading. I've enjoyed watching Georgetown play since Patrick Ewing brought them to the title game during his freshman year, and they are always on the list of teams "no one wants to play against." Both Georgetown and Kansas ended on a sour note to VCU this year, but hopefully both teams will bounce back in 2011. Thanks for stopping by.
Mike
Awesome basketball analysis as usual Mike. As a diehard Heels fan, let me just say I couldn't agree more with your list. HA!! I wish Puke wasn't on that list. Don't get me wrong, I know they belong. I just wish they didn't. Keep up the great work.
Great hub and yeah unfortunately Georgetown fell apart by the end of the season with the loss of Chris Wright and he wasn't enough when they went up against VCU in the first round.
- AUTHOR
Homer, I agree. Both teams have been particularly fun to watch this year, and it is nice to see Georgetown playing at a very high level again.
Mike
Georgetown amd Connecticut are certainly making uup ground.
- AUTHOR
Andrew, I definitely think Indiana found the right man in Tom Crean. He was the perfect choice for them. It might take some time to recruit the right kind of players, but Crean has the energy and the coaching expertise to bring the Hoosiers back.
Mike
Just a quick question about Indiana, do you believe Indiana is on their way back under Tom Crean?
- AUTHOR
Sports Gospel, thanks for reading. Even though the Rebels didn't make my list, from 1977 to 1991 UNLV was one of my favorite teams. I was always a fan of Tark and his teams. UNLV is in good hands again under K-State grad Lon Kruger--another of my favorite coaches. Thanks again.
Mike
UNLV!!!! My Runnin Rebs!!! good article Mike, to bad the rebels didn't make your top ten though
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- AUTHOR
Sorry, Scott. Maryland had some great moments with their 2002 title team. They were amazing with Len Elmore, Tom McMillan and Brad Davis in the early 70's, and they were awesome to watch with Len Bias and Adrian Branch. They still have not created a consistent name for themselves over the course of decades as the teams in my top five did--nor have they been as consistently good as my second five. They are an outstanding team, however, and I have great respect for their program.
Thanks for your comments--I appreciate it.
Mike
Not even a blip in passing about Maryland?
- AUTHOR
Husky, thanks for your comments. Duke may indeed be moving up on the list--their championship last season and their very impressive start this year certainly contributes to their legacy. The last three titles won by Duke, Carolina and Kansas demonstrates the power of the teams on this list.
Happy New Year!
Mike
Duke may be moving up the list. They are 12-0, ranked #1, Coach K passed Dean Smith tonight and is now 2nd in all time wins with 880. He may catch Bob Knight this year if the Blue Devils have an amazing season. You can tell by my hubs that I am a big Duke fan so I do appreciate everyone else's passion for all of these great programs.
- AUTHOR
Sexy Cheerleaders, thanks for reading. Texas has been a good team under Coach Rick Barnes, but hardly an elite team, either recently or historically. I enjoy watching them play very much, but can't include them on an all-time list.
Thanks for stopping by.
Mike
- AUTHOR
Micky, thanks for stopping by--a few weeks ago. Somehow I missed your post down here. The Tar Heels with McQuire as coach beat KU with Wilt Chamberlain for the title in 1957. I wasn't born yet, but Jayhawks always felt UNC stole a title--KU with Wilt had to be an amazing college team to watch.
I remember the four corners offense very well and hated it. It was brilliant coaching but not fun basketball to watch. A lot of basketball people still believe the UNC vs. Virginia game in the early 80's was responsible for bringing the shot clock to college basketball. They were ranked #1 and #2 in the country at the time. Carolina had Jordan, Sam Perkins and James Worthy while Virginia had Ralph Sampson. It should have been a great game, but UNC seemed unwilling to play ball and the game turned into a joke. I don't even remember who won.
Basketball has changed a lot since those days, and I'm glad the four corners is now a distant memory.
Thanks for stopping by, and sorry it took 5 weeks to respond.
Mike
What about Texas?
I voted for the Tarheels because of their successes in my "watching" lifetime. I hated hem when McQuire coached the Gamecocks. The Cocks were the best but Roche went down with injuries. NC had the "four corners" mess that was designed by lawyers I think!
- AUTHOR
Habee, thanks for reading. A fellow hubber named Truth from Truth is also a huge Duke fan, and I found myself rooting for the Blue Devils because of him. They are unquestionably an elite program.
Mike
I voted for Duke!
- AUTHOR
Ron, thanks for reading. St. Johns is currently seventh in all-time victories, between Temple and UCLA. I left them off the list because they haven't made an impact in a quarter of a century, and have fewer accomplishments in the NCAA Tournament or significant alumni than the other schools I mentioned.
Just out of curiosity, if Saint Johns were to be included, who would you suggest I leave out?
Anyway, thanks for reading, I appreciate your comments and opinions.
Mike
Where is St. Johns University. They were at one time fourth in all-time victories. Then they got placed on probatiion for recruiting violations and the program has since badly deteriorated. Where do they now rank among the wiiningest teams in terms of victories? Are they still in the top five?
There is no way that they can be left off a list of the top teams of all time.
- AUTHOR
Chuck, interesting article about Arizona. They have had a culture of winning for a long time, and they are looking to maintain the mindset that they are a top-stakes team, even during a down year. I agree with them, and frankly--that says a lot for Arizona's inclusion on an all-time list.
And, I agree completely with you that Cincy would not belong on an all-time list. I would probably look to Ohio State or Arkansas if I had to include a different team and leave Arizona out, or even put UConn back in.
Makes me wonder who would belong on a next ten list...
Well, thanks again, I appreciate your comments a lot.
Mike
No problem Mike .
To emphasize my point even more , i was reading an article on ESPN.com about Arizona not making the tournament .
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/po...
"Arizona saw its 25-year streak of NCAA tournament appearances snapped when it lost in the opening round of the Pac-10 tournament against UCLA.
The 16-15 Wildcats are now staying home for sure after not even getting selected to play in the NIT and declining an invitation to play in the CBI.
"That’s really not what our program is about right now," first-year Arizona coach Sean Miller told reporters of the CBI. " The goal here is to make the NCAA Tournament and be in a position for a seed that can advance and can threaten for the Final Four.""
Declining the CBI , pretty sure they wouldn't have wanted to play in the NIT as well . See what the coach says about the program's goal being to GET TO THE FINAL FOUR . That is not cinci's goal . Cinci's goal is to make the tournament , period , and if they do , even if they are a 16th seed , oh yes they will party all summer like theres no tomorrow . (lol)
The fact is chris , nobody expects anything out of Cincinnati . The media expects great things every year by UNC. This year they don't make the tournament and the web is spammed by articles about them . What a shocker . Do you see any article about cincinnati ? That's how you measure a powerhouse . If , EVEN AFTER WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP , the medias and FANS are SCREAMING AT YOU for being on a down year , you know its because it doesn't happen often , and you know its because they expect perpetual excellence from you year in year out .
Who expects anything out of Cincinnati ? I don't want to hear about cinci topping Michigan State ever again . Izzo has done more in 10 years in the NCAA than cinci in 100 . Heck , MSU had more success LAST YEAR than in cinci's last 30 years .
I don't care about final fours . Ohio state tops Cinci in final fours . Do you see them on that list ? No . Syracuse has 4 final fours only . But , on the other hand , they haven't had a losing season in 40 years . They have 40 20 wins + seasons (active streak of 13 straight) . They've been in 5 championships , and have won 3 (2 in the 1910's-20's which are not counted because they were before the tournament era). They are neck to neck in Big East Tournament Championships with Georgetown and these 2 teams have matched for memorable games . They have national prominence . They attract big stars . They have a recent championship in 03 , and they're in place to PERHAPS compete in another one this year or in the upcoming years . People talk about Coach K , but Boeheim has done an INCREDIBLE job of consistancy with Syracuse . They have an impressive history of getting SNUBBED by the NCAA Tournament committee . Won the conference in 1980 and had to settle for the NIT (and many more times they have been snubbed) .
Anyways , that is all . Cinci is not close to that history and dominance . Not a lot of teams are . But even then , they get overlooked most of the time . If 'cuse gets overlooked , imagine what people think about cincinnati !
- AUTHOR
Chuck, thanks for coming back again, I appreciate your comments and opinions. You make great points about the differences in the game in the 60's, relative to today. Recruiting was not conducted on a national level, and teams with a few good players could dominate, as Oscar Robertson did with Cincy. That was a major reason why East Coast teams like LaSalle or Holy Cross were important in the 50's and 60's. UCLA under John Wooden brought recruiting to a national level and, in that respect, had a major impact on the game. Cincinnati never really had the chops to recruit on a national level, year in and year out--the other teams on the list recruit nationally.
Thanks again for commenting, in my opinion you really know your basketball.
Mike
- AUTHOR
Chris, I will defend Arizona's 25 years of consistency when compared with Cincinnati's 4-5 years of consistency. Over 20 years of good teams is not "recent. Cincy is good, but I gotta agree with Chuck--Cincy belongs in a group with Florida, UNLV or San Francisco--not with Syracuse, Louisville, Indiana or... Arizona.
I respectfully disagree but greatly appreciate your comments.
Cincinnati ... what are you talking about . 5 of their 6 final fours come in the 60's and both of their titles as well . How is that all time consistancy ? At that time , Holy Cross, Loyola and La Salle were "contenders" . lol .
Oh sure they had a couple of 25 win seasons in late 90's early 2000's , but who never had that in their history ? Not good enough to be on the all time list .
If you'd put every team with back to back titles and a short "reign" , florida , UNLV , oklahoma state , san francisco and a few more flukes would be on that list (including cinci) .
None of these teams can even COMPARE to the greats .
And even though Arizona is not making the tournament this year , you know they're gonna bounce back eventually . Arizona is a basketball/baseball state. Cincinnati is far from them in every sport . And i really don't think they're ever gonna bounce back , the big east is too strong for them . They will never be able to outclass that division and i really don't think they'll even come close to a final four in the next 40 YEARS .
And lets face it , recent success will always outclass past success . That's just the way it goes . Why ? Because the rules have changed , and its more difficult to judge a good team back then because of the rules and seeding. If you didn't WIN your conference , you couldn't have a shot at anything . NC State went like 77-1 in 2 years in the 70's and the first year they couldn't even make the tournament because of the seeding . Plus , the NIT had more power than the NCAA tournament , now its the opposite , and all teams who won the NIT back then are not even considered . Also , it was still the early years and conferences weren't for the most part what they are today . The ACC teams were in the SEC , they split in half because of the unfairness of their FOOTBALL dominance (that's right , the ACC is a primary football conference ) and because they had too many members .
Cincinnati won at a time of extreme unbalance . Teams were not established on the big scene , conferences were in process . The league was not half as important as it is today . The players were mostly white because of racism . It was not the same game , at all .
Prove to me that cincinnati can win now that the dominance has been set in , now that the conferences have been built and now that EVERY player in the country , no matter the color , have a chance at playing . Its far harder to win the tournament now that it has ever been . More and more teams are given a shot in , and its hard for any team to win every tournament game in hunt of the title . Heck , they're talking about expanding the tournament to 94 teams .
Im telling you , Cincinnati has no weight on that balance , not anymore . They have nothing to attract the best players in the country . Players want to win , not be a part of a team that won 50 years ago . Good luck to cinci , but in my eyes , they will be at the bottom of the big east for the next century . And no , i don't hate them . Im just realistic . Same deal with NC State .
These teams wont ever see the light again , they've been burried with the expasion of the sport and they wont be able to de-throne the cities who LIVE AND DIE for college basketball .
consistency. what are you talking about. they didn't do anything before lute olson and the 80's. im not saying that arizona hasn't had some good recent years with a good coach. but lute is all that arizona has ever had and this year is great proof of that. Cincinnati has had much success with many coaches and many eras. where as arizonas success is only recently. and arkansas WTF. no way the deserve to even be in the same region as uconn and Cincinnati
- AUTHOR
Chris, Cincinnati is a very good team, but I didn't feel their dominance was supported throughout eras. I confess I put Arizona in primarily because of their consistency--24-25 years of inclusion in the NCAA Tournament, which will end this season.
In my opinion, Cincinnati is on a level with outstanding programs like Arkansas and UConn (who was on my list until someone convinced me Syracuse was better...). They are worthy of consideration, but I tend to give a slight edge to Arizona.
Thanks for reading, Chris. I appreciate your comments and agree that Cincinnati is outstanding.
Mike
actually michigan state is legit. but Cincinnati needs to replace arizona on this list. Cincinnati has 6 final fours. arizona has 4.Cincinnati has more national titles. and look at arizona this year. their in the pac 10 the worst conference in the country and they still cant do anything
where is Cincinnati on this. i fell they are way better than michigan state with more history. yet they are not even mentioned by anyone here. 2 national championships. 6 final fours. 10 conference tournament championships. somebody please show the bearcats the respect they deserve. they have hit lower times right now because there in the big east the toughest conference in the country
- AUTHOR
Alex,
I appreciate your reading my article. I will confess I was tempted to delete your comments, primarily because of your insistance on insulting me. Calling my opinions ridiculous and a joke and referring to me as a moron is not a way to compel me to agree with you. Rather than deleting your venom, however, I decided to say a few words in response.
Clearly you believe championships are what it's all about, and that's fine. At the beginning of my article, I stated that I believed the best programs to be about more than that.
Despite UCLA's dominance, I consider their success to be largely the product of John Wooden. Sure, they won a title since then, but their real numbers came from Wooden's era. When discussing the significance of a program all-time, it is difficult to argue for UCLA as dominant in any era except the mid-60's through the mid-70's. Carolina, Kentucky and Kansas have all sustained excellence throughout a far greater period, evinced by their almost 300 more victories overall.
I live in Kansas and have always liked KU. I will admit that. I've learned a little about the school while living here. Here's some of the things I learned:
1. The inventor of the game coached at KU.
2. Phog Allen coached at KU. Phog Allen won championships for KU in 1922 and 1923--before the NCAA was instituted. KU has five titles, not just three. Not as many as UCLA, you say. Sure, you're right. But more than they are historically given credit for.
3. Phog Allen won 746 games at KU. Two of Allen's players also won a few games as coaches: Adolph Rupp at Kentucky won 876 games, and Dean Smith won 879 at UNC. Both Kansas alumni.
4. Allen was instrumental in getting basketball recognized as an Olympic Sport and, in 1952 was an Assistant Olympic Coach. Half the Jayhawk roster played in the 1952 Olympics.
5. Phog Allen was also a major influence on the institution of the NCAA Tournament. March Madness itself has its roots with the Jayhawks.
6. KU has the most Consensus first team All-Americans, with 19 players selected on 26 occasions. Carolina is second, and Kentucky is 5th. UCLA 7th.
7. KU has won more conference championships than any other school with 53. Kentucky is second.
8. KU has had 30 McDonald's All-Americans.
9. By the end of this season, KU will have had 23 AP Top 10 finishes and 25 Top Ten finishes in the coaches poll. UCLA will stand at 23 and 24, respectively. Ahead of both schools is Kentucky and North Carolina.
10. KU has had 16 losing seasons since 1889. Half of them came before 1920.
11. KU has had 12 players participate in Olympic competition. UCLA has had seven.
I'm not willing to spend the time researching the extent of Carolina's and Kentucky's dominance since they are generally accepted as all-time teams.
I certainly do not discount UCLA's greatness. They are an elite program, and you are correct--what they have accomplished will likely never be duplicated. My ONLY point is that I never said my rankings were only about NCAA titles and, when it comes to the impact these teams have had on the game, I stand by the rankings I've given them.
Thanks for stopping by, Alex. If you come back, however, try to be a bit more polite.
- AUTHOR
Chuck, thanks for your comments.
I appreciate your knowledge of the game very much--you really know your hoops. I will make a confession--I spent less time considering who would make a second five than I did the first five. As a result, you may be correct that some of my choices could be out of order. I do consider leaving out Syracuse to be an error on my part, and I'm totally cool with your pointing out their dominance. Your list and the order they were placed in has merit and, of course, that's what any discussion like this is about--comparing opinions and justifying them.
I am apt to stick with the order of my top five because I consider UCLA to be mostly the product of a single era, and I will go into it a little more while answering another reader's comments about UCLA and their place in college basketball history.
I agree that Georgetown could be on its way back--they seem to be recruiting well lately, and have had some good big men playing for them the last few years. I've been watching how they have progessed, also.
This could be an interesting NCAA Tournament, and I would not argue your belief that the Big East is poised for some good things.
Thanks again, Chuck, and stop by any time. I always enjoy talking basketball with someone who really knows the game.
Mike
id really like to know how you have UCLA at #4 when they almost triple kansas in championships , more than double north carolina and has 4 over kentucky .
they at least have 20 years on UCLA so to count wins as a "edge" is ridic .
it would take 30 years for any other significant program to have a CHANCE of tieing them assuming they don't win another one . franctly , i don't see any other program ever catching up on them .
this top is an absolute joke . somehow north carolina is at #1 . 2 teams double their championships .
how the hell kansas ended up ahead of UCLA . 3 championships , compared to 11 . Ok naismith . but are you serious ?
1 ucla
2 kentucky
3 north carolina
4 kansas
5 indiana
6 duke
that's just how it goes , you either play to win it all or you don't . elite eights , final fours , nobody gives a flying urethra . only thing that matters is championships . plus ucla is 1st in all these other categories as well , so im not sure how the hell you made your rankings .
why does in every other sport , championships make the ranks , but when it comes to college bball some morons rank teams that are totally outclassed in that category as #1 .
celtics in nba .
pitt/dallas in nfl .
yankees in mlb .
alabama in college fball .
tiger woods in golf .
montreal canadians in nhl .
UCLA IN COLLEGE BBALL (why would it be different ? )
Hi Mike ,
I see that Syracuse is on that top 10 . Its well deserved , and its nice to see you change your mind .
Id put Louisville over Indiana . They don't have as many championships , but 2 losing seasons since 1943 is hard to overlook . Very hard . Since they joined the big east in 05 they've been very solid too . I know i didn't mention them in my top 5 , mainly because they've been in weak conferences forever , but seeing their success in the big east i must agree to their dominance .
By the way , now that John Thompson's son is the coach of the Hoyas , Georgetown COULD go back to the powerhouse they were in the 80's and 90's . Already started strong couple seasons back with a final four, so that would be my team to watch . They're no longer defensive enforcers like they were , but they still make every team earn their wins against them .
Ah , the big east is just too strong . Just for the heck of it ill re-do my top , without raging over Duke (god do i hate them).
1 . UCLA
11 championships Wat
2 . UNC
- Perpetual Dominance -
3 . UK
victoriessss
4 . KU
funny mascot yo
5 . Duke (I Surrender)
"man i hate duke" - Quote of the decade by every non-Duke college hoops fan
6 . Syracuse
longest active (and ever) winning seasons streak + otto is sexy
7 . Louisville
they originally come from MISSOURI VALLEY yaaa bwoy can they play bball or wat
8 . Arizona
their logo looks stupid tho big A with bolding made in MS Paint get out of here
9 . Indiana (Ouch big setback)
p.s. They suck now legacy over
10 . UConn / Illinois / MSU / Nova / Utah
too lazy to pick but if you like championships pick UConn
if you like tradition/winning percentage pick ILLI
if you like Green color pick MSU
if you like spanish pick viLLanOva
if you like disappointment and redheads pick utah
Hey don't laugh i mightve done it HuMoRoUs but its a legit top 10 . Just got sick of re-stating every reason why schools are mentionned . Everyone Knows Already .
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Touchdown, thanks for reading. Just mentioned them in in respect for the Fab Five and good teams they had in the 60's and 80's--it didn't mean they were gonna make my list, though.
Thanks again for reading.
Mike
You mention Michigan in your first paragraph? I'm not so sure about that one. Michigan State yes, but not Michigan!
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Chuck, thanks for coming back. You certainly know your Syracuse basketball, and I will give you credit for mentioning National Championships prior to the formation of the NCAA and its basketball tournament (Did you know the idea of creating the NCAA tournament began with KU coach Phog Allen?). Kansas also has two championships awarded prior to the NCAA Tournament--in 1922 and 1923.
You got me curious about KU basketball (I live in Lawrence, Kansas, by the way) and noticed they had 16 losing seasons in 112 years, but 8 of them occurred before 1910. I might write something about that sometime soon.
I am ready to concede your point based largely upon your research, and when next you look, you will see Syracuse rated in my second five all-time teams (probably where I put UConn). I'm still not ready to bump Duke or Indiana, but I will continue to look at it all and adjust if I think it's still warranted.
Thank you VERY MUCH, my friend. You convinced me.
Good luck to Syracuse and Kansas in the NCAA Tournament.
Mike
No problem .
By the way , if any school out of the Big Ten should be mentionned , outside of indiana , it would be Illinois . Only 12 losing seasons in 105 years , to compare them to the "greats" , UNC has 10 in 100 years . They have a national championship as well , in 1914 , and 16 times they finished the season 1st of their conference . I just don't see Ohio State on the top 10 list with 26 losing seasons . Consistancy is very important to be considered a top school .
About Syracuse , If you go by GREATEST ALL TIME , you gotta take ALL TIME in consideration . Syracuse has 14 losing seasons in 110 years . They have 3 national championships (1917 , 1925 , 2003 ). 5th winningiest all time team , active record of 39 straight winning seasons . Even the NCAA seems to underrate them , they've been left out of the NCAA tournament 8 times despite having impressive records . Perhaps there wouldve been more final fours , maybe a 4th championship .
Anywho , it can always go either way .
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Chuck, thanks for coming back.
It is a very good year for the Big East with Syracuse, Villanova, West Virginia all in the Top Ten, no doubt about it. A Big East team playing for the championship would not be a surprise.
Thanks so much for your comments, they are greatly appreciated.
Mike
Lol my second comment was just "inside rage" coming out .
Since 1980 , the Big East has racked up 6 national championships . 5 DIFFERENT TEAMS . Louisville , Gtown , Syracuse , UConn , Villanova . 5 times they've been runner ups for the title , which makes 11 appearences for the big east in the last 30 years for the national championship . A lil over 30% of the time , a Big East team makes it to the national championship . 2 of the runner up teams only lost by 1 point , including Gtowns 1982 team against Micheal fkn Jordan . They don't get blown out like UCLA in 2006 or Duke in 1990. In their championship victories , the big East has beaten Duke , UCLA and Kansas . (more recently Syracuse beating kansa in 03) . So , yes , in the early years of basketball these 5 teams you named (cept duke) has been powerhouses . But, they have yet to dominate the big east . Since the big east was founded , in my eyes they've been the most successful conference in all of basketball and in 20 years , you'll see a completely different top 5 list.
By the way , Mark it down , A big east team is going to the championship this year again .
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Chuck,
I wanted to touch upon a few more of your points. The majority of your second comment leads me to believe you favor mid-major teams. I like them, too--I think they play outstanding basketball, and they do it with four year players that are the backbone of college basketball. I love seeing mid-majors in the NCAA Tournament, and I would rather give a bid to a Butler or Wichita State than to the seventh-ranked team in the Big Twelve or the ninth-ranked team in the Big East, etc. etc. If I had my may, no more than four teams in any conference would get into the NCAA Tournament, clearing the way for the mid-majors.
I'm not sure I know what you base the assertion that teams like Kansas or Kentucky are scared, however. Kansas' RPI rating this year is number one, Kentucky's is fourth. I admit that doesn't prove a whole lot, but it does at least try to reflect relative strength of schedule.
Kentucky, Duke, Carolina, UCLA and Kansas always play a good non-conference schedule. Kansas scheduled UCLA this season, but had no way to know that the Bruins would falter so badly. Their success in the last 7-8 years has been outstanding.
Are you saying these teams are scared to lose to the Mid-Majors? Well, you may be right, but I can't say that is a certainty. Truth is, they would probably win most of the time, unless the Butlers and Valpo's caught them on an off-year, like Carolina and UCLA are struggling through.
Your other comments concern the strength of the Big East. I like them, too--they are a tough, great conference. The Big Twelve is a great conference this year also, however. The ACC and Pac-10 are down, but are typically strong. I don't think the Big East can lay claim to any historical dominance, however. They are always one of the best every year, I will gladly admit that.
UCLA and North Carolina can point to decades of dominance, and I don't think an off-year or two taints them. I also don't think they tanked the season when they saw they couldn't make the Final Four, they just didn't have the talent this year. When so many players defect to the NBA, you sometimes just can't reload quickly enough.
Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, and UCLA have not only won for decades, they have added to the history of the game with their excellence. Indiana and Duke have added to the history of college basketball, as well. I'm not sure one can take a century of basketball for these teams and dismiss it by calling them scared. They have stood the test of time.
Thanks again, I greatly appreciate your comments and have enjoyed reading what you had to say. Have a good evening!
Mike
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Chuck, thanks so much for your comments. Clearly you are very passionate about your basketball and understand the game well.
Between your comments and Scott's above, I think you have convinced me I was wrong about UConn, and Arizona might be fading, as well. Scott made a pretty good plea for Arkansas, so let's compare them to Syracuse.
Syracuse has 1780 victories, good for sixth place all-time. That's pretty good, and certainly warrants their consideration on a top ten list. Arkansas isn't even on the list, so the advantage goes to Syracuse there. Both have an NCAA championship. Syracuse has played more NCAA Tournament than Arkansas, but the Razorbacks are right behind them on the all-time list. Syracuse has won more Tourney games also, but Arkansas has more Final Four appearances. Looks like the edge goes to Syracuse, head to head with Arkansas to replace Connecticut on my list.
If the NCAA Tournament is a criteria, perhaps Ohio State needs more consideration. They have played in 17 Final Four Games with ten appearances. They have 8 Final Four Victories and one NCAA Title.
So, overall I would say Syracuse might deserve the nod over Arkansas or Ohio State, but it is a pretty close call.
Comparing Syracuse to Duke in a top five list, however, and they fall short. Duke has more total victories, more NCAA Tournament appearances, Tournament games played and victories, Final Four appearances, Final Four victories, and NCAA titles. It would be very difficult to say Syracuse has the better program all-time.
Do they belong on a top ten team? Perhaps, and I might have been wrong to overlook them. Do they belong in the top five? I can't say they do at this point.
Thanks again for your comments, I will return to discuss your other topics.
Mike
Re-reading my comment , I thought id add a bit more info .
These teams in the top 5 , they're all scared , and only play to win . Therefore , they schedule teams they know they outclass , only . When they THINK they have no chance , they give up on the season .
Why are they scared of Butler ? Xavier ? Southern Illinois ? Creighton ? Belmont ? Old Dominion ? Valpo ? Wichita State ? Bradley ? Because they know they wont get by them easily .
I watched UCLA - Arizona State tonight , no idea why . UCLA gave up on the game before it even started. No will , no fighting . Lousy passes that got intercepted . Awful play all around . Never would i have seen this BAD performance coming from a true basketball team . Fact is , the powerhouses of college basketball only play for championships and final fours . When both are unaccessible , they give up . They don't even care about giving a good show , or dignity . They simply give up .
I respect their acheivments , but i don't respect their mentality .
Would love to see them in the big east . That is the strongest conference in all of college basketball , and trust me you cant win it often . Going 15-3 in conference play like Syracuse did this win , its absolutely outstanding . DePaul is 1-17 in conference play . Laugh ? No , don't . They were 7-5 before conference play . And finished the season 8-22 . What does that tell you ? THIS CONFERENCE IS NOT A JOKE . Look at the talent they send to the NBA (DePaul) . They're not a bad team at all.
That's all i had to say . I cant put Syracuse all time #1 because UNC , UCLA , KU and UK have achieved way too much to overlook , but im telling you when it comes to TOUGH , CLOSE basketball , they have no idea what its like . They're used to blow out every team of their conference like its nothing , and struggle in close games (UCLA coming short in 3 straight final fours games in 06 to 08). I knocked down UConn earlier , but they consistantly play one of the toughest schedules , and still can drop 30 wins seasons every now and then .
Fact is , Syracuse tops the strongest conference in all of college basketball . Do not underrate them .
where is syracuse ? seriously ? not even in the poll ? You have to go back to 1968 for their last losing season . Jesus christ i cant believe you overlooked that Mike .
you cant have connecticut mentionned there if syracuse is not . clear cut #1 out of the big east , not even close , and uconn has only been really flashing since they joined the big east . uconn is not a basketball power , altho they have some sort of tradition they're far from the level of dominance that syracuse has been in the last 90+ years .
your top 4 is right on , there is no CLEAR #1 (id say UCLA tho because number of championships is always the most important "stat" in my mind) because they're all interchangeable depending on the person's point of view . im not pro-kansas , as they lack the championships . however , i cant overlook kansas for being ridiculously consistant forever . i don't like indiana as #6 , where have they been in the last 15 years ? and duke , well fuck duke . i think its more of a coach beastly performance than basketball talent . coach K is that good , no wonder kobe wanted him to coach the lakers . i don't give duke the credit at all , their play has never impressed me . they're more of a "annoying" presence than a basketball powerhouse . they always seem to stick around , no one really knows why , on paper they're terrible but meh , coach K is a brainiac .
ESPN's list is garbage . are they in love with the big ten ? seriously ? 5 teams in the top 5 and they're one of the weakest divisions (yes indiana has history and illinois is decent , but out of these 2 i don't see any other big ten team even in the top 30 ). their overall all sports combined reputation helps them because as far as basketball goes , any missouri valley team plays better ball , they just lack the money .
my own top :
1 - bruins ( no team will ever break everything they accomplished , ever . )
2 - tar heels ( always there year after year unlike kentucky , + jordan )
3 - wildcats (uk)
4 - jayhawks
5 - ORANGE . ( prove me wrong . )
6 - blue devils
7 - indiana ( meh these 5 championships still count , but this franchise is Fallllllllllllling in the abyss )
8 - wildcats (arizona) ( same as the hoosiers , they seem to be falling more year after year)
9 - spartans ( a lot of gaps in their history , but add magic johnson and their recent revival and its tough to overlook them . love izzo . )
10 - WONT EVER BE GONZAGA
To all gonzaga fans out there , start by actually getting past a sweet sixteen or at least going undefeated with these weak schedules before you even mention yourselves as a basketball powerhouse . Morrison was ugly ( and a bust in the NBA ), Heytvelt overrated as HELL , and they're pretty much your whole history . GARBAGE TEAM .
The missouri valley teams are the most talented out of the entire divison 1 . They don't flash , at all , but their players are dedicated and true ballers . In decenies to come , watch as they emerge from the dark and dominate these weak teams ( aka florida - ohio state - wisconsin - pittsburgh - villanova - cincinatti - etc.) considered dominant because they've had 4 good years in a 70 year span .
Syracuse #1 in my heart . #5 in history . #1 coolest mascot ( BEAT THAT ! )
- AUTHOR
MarygrauSheila, thank you for reading. I appreciate your comments very much.
Mike,
Very Nice hub & quite interesting. I enjoyed reading.
- AUTHOR
Scott,
You may be right that Arkansas deserves more consideration than I gave them. I considered them a product of only two eras: the '70s era with Sidney Moncrief, Marvin Delph and Ron Brewer and of course, the title team you mentioned. That might very well be short-changing their efforts. Perhaps Ohio State and Syracuse deserve more attention, as well.
I believe Georgetown, North Carolina State and Connecticut to be roughly equivalent and cases could be made for any of them over the other.
I will give your comments some thought. You might have convinced me that Connecticut doesn't truly belong.
Thanks for your comments.
First of all you can't have a program that has never won a championship in this. Number 2 while they have struggled in this decade where is Arkansas on this list. They were the winningest program in the country from 1990 to 1996. They have went to numerous NCAA Tournaments, 6 Final Fours, 2 National Championship Games and a National Championship. These programs seem to reflect how people are doing well over the past 10 years. I agree with the Top 7 it is after that it is off. My real beef is with Connecticut. They have not had enough success over a long period. Their success has been the last 15 years. That is not long enough. They had partial success in the early 90's but not enough to make me do backflips. I actually think Michigan State #8, Arkansas should be #9 and Arizona #10. I think Michigan, Ohio State, Georgetown, North Carolina State are schools that could be above Connecticut. You have to take into consideration from 1939 on. I like Florida but they are not a top 10 all time program. I believe Connecticut is a popular choice because of their success from 1999 til now but not a logical one if you consider their program over the past 70 years.
- AUTHOR
rml, that's a good question. Depending upon how KU and Kentucky end their year, one of them could supplant UNC as my top team of all time. A strong argument could be made that Kansas was the top team of the decade, with Carolina and UK faltering a couple times.
I will admit that a title by Kentucky or Kansas could knock the Tar Heels down to second or even third on my list. We shall see....
how will this season affect your ratings? Will North Carolina fall out of your #1 spot?
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docrehab, thanks for the comment. Kentucky is an amazing program--the first to reach 2,000 wins, which they did a couple nights ago. They are fun to watch, undefeated this year,and John Calipari has them playing great ball.
Thanks again.
My best is the 2nd!
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JBeadle, thanks again for the comments. I have heard it said that Roy will shmooze if he believes something can be gained from it, and beyond that it's exactly what you described. I have met him a couple times, long ago, but don't know him at all. That's a good story--I guess he could tell he didn't have a convert on his hands right then.
Thanks again! The account of your Roy sighting is great!
I have a Roy Williams story. His Kansas team was in Chicago doing something like a challenge with four teams. I was eating alone in the hotel restaurant and there beside me reading his paper was Roy Williams. Duke had just beat Kansas the prior year I think in the final but it might have been semifinal. It was a long time ago. I chatted it up with him and he was pretty talkative. About 5 minutes into the conversation he asks if I'm a Jayhawk fan and I say, "Hell no! I'm a Duke fan!" And the conversation ended. He went back to his paper. Completely snubbed me. I'm not even sure if he finished his steak. He was done and gone shortly after the silent treatment started. It was a proud moment for me. I should've shmoozed the moment. I might have gotten some tickets!!!
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JBeadle, thanks for your comment. You're correct, I do gush somewhat about Roy, but probably because I'm a Jayhawk, not a Tar Heel. I was really irritated to see him win those titles for UNC, when he couldn't win one for us when he coached at Kansas for 15 years. I'm happy with Coach Self, though. Coach K has always been a favorite of mine--that guy flat out knows the game, and like Knight at Indiana, K has almost personally made Duke great.
Thanks again for the comments.
Flip Duke with UNC and I'd be happier. You overly gush on Roy Williams, although he's the best coach they've had since Dean left. Roy and Coach K are comparable - overall - but not with their respective current teams. Coach K's achievements at Duke by far outshine Roy's at UNC.
I smell Tar Heel.
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Kingis, thanks for your comment. Many fine players have come from the University of Illinois, and historically I've never wanted KU (my home town team) to play them because they are so good.
Thanks again.
I am surprised to see my favorite ranked so high on the ESPN poll you show. There have been many great players to come from the U of I to play professionally.
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Jason, which team was yours?
Thanks for reading, anyway.
Mine didn't make the cut...man!
- AUTHOR
ESPN recently published a massive encyclopedia of basketball and rated all basketball programs in Division I. There list starts out:
1. Kentucky
2. UCLA
3. Kansas
4. North Carolina
5. Indiana
6. Illinois
7. Duke
8. Purdue
9. Ohio State
10. Iowa
Now, their ratings are far more statistically based than mine, and their rankings span the 115 year (or whatever) history of the game more completely, but Iowa? Their rankings even list Nebraska ahead of schools like UNLV, Florida, Xavier and Pittsburgh. Nebraska? In basketball??
Okay, folks, a question for you: whose list is better, mine or ESPN's? And what are your own choices?
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Thanks for the comment. My own home state is 3rd.
My homestate is number one! Yes!
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