Prophesy

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   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   I have a question.
   I am curious as to how the Church decides as to which timeframes mentioned in prophesy are to be understood as prophetic time (a day = a year) and when a day = a day.
      I would think that when discused in prophesy there would be a constant???
      The Church says that 70 weeks = 490 of our years and yet 1260 days is three and a half of our years?
      I do not understand When these timeframes are discussed; how do we know when a timeline in porphesy  should be understood as prophetic time (a day = a year) or when a timeline is discussed in prophesy is to be understood as a day - a day on earth.
      
      I have my opinions but am more concerned as to how this can be explained.
       I would think that when discused in prophesy there would be a constant???

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      Faybe Bayposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Jerami. Here is my take on it. Sir Isaac Newton spent most of his life deciphering the mathematics of the Biblical texts, and even he was unsure of the time lines he came up with.
      
      http://www.reformation.org/newton.html
      
      Mathematically he is considered by some to be a peer with Nostradamus, his Biblical calculations defining dates have proved to be their own kind of prophecy, yet even he was stumped in the end, giving at least three dates for the end of the world, one of which was 2012, and the others later.

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Sorry about posting and running.  HAD to go
         Just got back home.
         
            Hi Faybe Bay .. thanks for the link I did read it. Many things came to mind. Too many to get into now. But one thought immediately came to mind
           I'm not sure but I think that MR Newton was a futurists?
           And if the futurists concept is not the case, he would not be able to prove an incorrect supposition. None of the calculations would add up.  Never thought about that before but this fact alone should mean something.
         
           Hi  moviemick  .. I think that the times of the end as described in scripture was in reference to the end of times for that Heberw Nation that those prophesy were written to.
             These times of the end were followed by the times of the Gentiles. This is my understanding anyway.
         
            In reference to the OP; Why does The Church teach that sometimes  a prophetic reference of time is a day = a year and sometimes a day is a day?  I think that the prophetic =earth time shuold be used consistently through out.
            These two questions may have contributed to Mr Newtons inability to reach a satisfactory conclusion.
          
            Just my thoughts.  will be going NIT NIGHT in about 15min

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            Faybe Bayposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Here it is, I watched the whole thing months ago.
            
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voVnP8NcG5M

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            1. 58

               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Thanks I'll watch it.  and go to bed.  I get to work some more tomorrow so gotta get up in about 5 hrs.

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               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I did watch this and it was intresting. 
               It said that he was afraid to have his writtings on this subject make known. And his mathmatical calculations using prominate dates revelant with the Catholic Church indicates that he also thought that the Church represented the Beast as mentioned in Rev 13.
               
                  Being a great mathmatition he should have found what he was looking for "IF" the equation that he was using was correct.
                  He was using the equation One Day = a year method such as the Church says that it is.
                
                   He also believed that the prophesy of Rev. have been in the process of fullfilment throughout history.
               
                  I think that his theories and mine are very similar with the exception for approx .3 of a year for each day.
                  It is my belief that if he had accepted the fact that the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem did go forth upon King Cyrus's decree in 538 BC  he would have discovered a diffrent timeline comparison. If he had used the equation One week = 9.1 to 9.2 of our years;  He then would have written a diffrent story.

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               1. 66

                  Faybe Bayposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Agreed. That is why I told you that your mathematics way surpasses anything I have seen. There are many who point fingers at this or that. Some think it is a church, some Internet, and even some the USA. it is a puzzle and only those who have knowledge can decipher it. My amazement with Sir Isaac Newton is that he came up with calculus to figure it out! He came up with no less than three dates, although the History channel doesn't show it, which I thought was ironic. I paused the screen and below the one they were highlighting was another paragraph in which he gave reasoning behind a later date, so perhaps he did have a .2 or .3 theory as well.

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                  1. 58

                     Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Sorry it took so long to respond.  just got home from work.
                     
                        I do not want to compare myself with anyone with inteligence. I graduated from a highly ranked Highschool in the mid 60. No formal learning past that. Manuel labor all my life.
                        Never wanted to be a writer. Still don't. Just got a story to tell.
                        Read the bible and never could see where "They" got their concepts from. About ten years ago I became compelled to uninterpret the End time prophey. Was totally suprised with what I found.

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                        The Last Quillposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        I want ot give you some insight about time or day or hour when mentioned in the bible, they forgot this particular verse.
                        
                        2 Peter 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
                        
                        But don't forget,
                        
                        1 day = thousand years, thousand years = 1 day.
                        
                        1 day to God = thousand years to man,
                        
                        24 hours = thousand years to man,
                        
                          1 hour = thousand years / 24 to man,
                        
                                 = 41 years and 8 months
                        
                        Now about theprediction of Newton, it would be hard for them predict because the signs mentioned by Christ had not yet fulfiled, in our time most of them are.
                        
                        I have one example of use of the computation above.
                        
                        Revelation 8:1 When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
                        
                        1/2 hour = 20 years and 10 months
                        
                        World War I ended      1918  /  11  /  11  (yyyy/mm/dd)
                        World War II begun     1939  /  09  /  10
                        
                        Time between these two world wars:   20 years, 9 months, and 29 days, the biblical phrase, about half an hour.
                        
                        
                        Note: Computation are rounded to the nearest day

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                        1. 58

                           Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           A day to the lord is not what is in question. Scripture says that he "IS the beginning and "IS" the end. Scripture says that HE is not bound by time; so I will not disagree with you as to what time is to God.
                               However I asume that the angels are bound in a time frame similar to that which we are.
                               I also assume that When the Lord wanted his messenger Anges (Gabriel) to deliver a message to a human, God would tell the Angel what the message is in terms that the angel understands.
                               Angelic terms.
                           The Angel then delivered the message exactly as it was given to him. The Angel delivered the message to the human in Angelic terms.
                               When God himself delivers a message to a human, he delivers it in Human terms.
                           
                               If a day = a thousand years in prophesy then the Messiah has not been cut off yet. That would approx. 27,000,000 years from the time that the commandment came forth.

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                           1. 61

                              The Last Quillposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              " If a day = a thousand years in prophesy then the Messiah has not been cut off yet. That would approx. 27,000,000 years from the time that the commandment came forth"
                              
                              This is probaby true because scientist assumes that earth is 45 billion years old.
                              
                              Now if all of us are going to stick to the bible as the standard of reference of discussion about the bible, then assumption is not accepted.
                              
                              Matthew 13:14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which said, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive:
                              
                              The bible explains itself, not just given to everyone.
                              
                              2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

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      moviemickposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You are not supposed to know the times of the prophecies, you are not supposed to dwell on matter relating to the end times.
      
      However that said you can find details relating to the heavenly time line vs the earthly one in Leviticus.

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      1. 66

         Faybe Bayposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Yeah that was kind of my point, if Sir Isaac Newton worked on it, developed calculus and all that other stuff, if he couldn't figure it out we aren't supposed to know.

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      Hokeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      How can you have prophesy and free will?

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         The same way as when we can go on a cruse ship. Free will while we are on the journey.  We have no controll over where the ship is going, when and where it docks.

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            Hokeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Saying that something is prophesy means its not free will. If it is prophesy than it is predestined. Therefore no free will.

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               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               "NO" is an mighty big word.
                 NOone has "totally" free will concerning all things.

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                  Hokeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  How do you figure? You cant have it both ways. Either you have free will or you dont. Not just sometimes.

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                  Pani Midnyte Odinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I do have totally free will

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                     Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Not meant  disprectfully  but
                     bet ya caint choose to stop breathing for 20 minutes and then resume breathing again.
                        Ya caint stop growing hair unless ya pull it all out by the roots. and if ya do that; you can't grow any if you changed your mind.
                        Ya caint keep your cake and eat it too.  etc.
                     
                        Could say some more but that is already being too silly

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                        Hokeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Free will in personal choices. Nice try though.

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                           Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           We can do that one too.
                           
                           
                              We have free will to do anything that we want to  only "IF" we remember what our limitations are.  If we only want to do those things that we are physically capable of doing.
                              So as I said before...I do not think that "Total Free Will" of all things is a ever posability. 
                              
                           
                           
                              And in fact as we get older those things seem to decrese in numbers.  Believe me I know

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                           1. 58

                              Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              This old body is goina lay me down to sleep now  see ya tomorrow.

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      RachaelLeflerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Time terms in prophesy are always vague, because then the prophesy can be total bullshit and it can still claim it will come true one day! :p

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         Hokeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Its all crap.

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      2. 58

         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         RachaelLefler]Time terms in prophesy are always vague
         
           As everything seems to be if we have no point of reference.
           If we understand when 62 weeks begin and end we have a reference as to how long of a period of our time, 62 weeks is.
            
           It may become confusing when we consider things such as, why 42 months and 1260 days are both used in diffrent reference? when they are mathmaticaly the same period of time.  But are they??
            You may tell your daughter that you will buy her a car in 1260 days. After 1260 days she is going to expect some car keys.
            However if you had told her in 42 months; she will not know exactly when to expect the keys. Maybe a week early or later and you will have kept your promise.
             With a point of reference for the timelines of prophesy; they can and should be understood; for after all, what orher reason would they have been given to us.

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            Hokeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Wishy washy. This is what is always done to make up for contradictions. You people always want your cake and eat it too.

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               Pani Midnyte Odinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               But... what's the point of having cake if you can't eat it?

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                  Hokeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Your so funny!

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                     Pani Midnyte Odinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Glad you think so!
                     
                     ...Now I want cake

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                        Hokeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        You will get something! 

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                           Pani Midnyte Odinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Ooh, can't wait.
                           And after I get that, let's go get cake

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                              Hokeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              I have a prophesy for you! 

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                                 Pani Midnyte Odinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 I might just take that prophecy into consideration

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            2. 58

               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I wrote a realy good explination for your coment but then I ask my self.
                 "You people"  was that a racist or sexist remark??

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                  Hokeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Neither. That was a Christian  remark.

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                     Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     OH  I wasn't sure  Thanks for clearing that up for me.
                     
                       I have been explaining this concept for almost 9 months.
                     Nothing wishy washy about it.
                        Understanding that the 62 weeks until they kill the Messiah(Daniel 9)  began in 538 BC and ended when Jesus was Crucified. 62 prophetic weeks = approx 568 years.
                         Do the math and you will find that 1260 days would be = to approx. 1640 tp 1660 years.  42 months would be something like 1630 to 1670 of our years.
                         That is all that is required to figure out the rest.

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                  Pani Midnyte Odinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Isn't it kind of petty to take the phrase "you people" as an insult?

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         earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         True!

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2. 58

   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   The church teaches that the commandment to build Jerusalem came forth around 433 when renovations of Jerssalem was reinstated.
     Actually the city had begun being built at the same time as when the building of the Temple began. That actually began in 535 BC after Cyrus made his decree in 138 BC. for the rebuilding of the Temple. The Temple was completed in 516 BC.   Either way the commandment to build Jerusamem did not come forth almost 100 years after it had begun being built. 
   
      The 62 weeks began in 538 BC.
     This is why Newtons formulas did not work.  He was believing the Churches views concerning the date that the commandment came forth to build Jerusalem.  Thus the day for a year method could not be correct.

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3. 58

   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   Now if all of us are going to stick to the bible as the standard of reference of discussion about the bible, then assumption is not accepted.
   -----------------------------------------------------------
   Jerami ........  Ok no more assumptions though simple analogy can be necessary ???
      If we are using the bible as references we are asumeing it to be correct.  Last assumption!
      
      Ezra 1 (1st year of Cyrus. 538 BC) Cyrus signs a written declaration that The Lord "CHARGES"  him to build the temple in Jerusalem.
       The hebrews whom desired to return to Jerusalem did go and began building the temple and the city (535 BC) The temple was finished in 516BC.
        In 538 BC Gabriel comes to Daniel and declares "The command came forth" when Daniel began praying and making supplications.
        Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to build Jerusalem it shall be 69 weeks unto the Messiah; .....  and the street and the wall shall be built in troubleous times
     And after 62 weeks Messiah shall be cut off.
     I think that this means exactly what it says.
     In 538 BC the 62 weeks the 69 weeks and the 70 weeks began.
     Approx 568 years later they cut off (killed) the Messiah.
   
     I do not think this is making any assumption.

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   Hokeyposted 14 years ago

   Let’s look at the most famous prophetic fulfillment: Isaiah 7:14, “Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman’u-el.”
   
   Let’s ignore the wording for a moment (young woman? Virgin? ). Focus on the context: Isaiah is delivering this sign to Ahaz, king of Judah, as he faces an alliance amongst his foes that could conceivably destroy Judah. It makes no sense in this context for Isaiah to be referring to a fulfillment that won’t happen until centuries later. So the surface meaning cannot be referring to Jesus.

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