Should Bills Actually Be Read before they become Law?

1. 68

   MikeNVposted 14 years ago

   Or should they just be voted on and made into law and "fixed" later.
   
   Maybe this is the new Government Paradigm.
   
   Make laws that only a select few are privy too... then just fix them later.
   
   That's an interesting plan.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Interesting?
      
      It's tyranny, plain and simple.
      
      People can take it different ways.  Some laugh, some cry, some holler, some take it with a grain of salt.
      
      I take it seriously.
      They need to get their hands off my country!

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   2. 78

      starme77posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      They definaltly should be read first

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   3. 60

      stephensaldanaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Bills must be read before its turn into a law! Law makes a big difference to any country so it has tobe analysed first ...

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   4. 61

      Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Mike,
      
      How else can these bills be passed?

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   5. 62

      Disturbiaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Imagine that.... reading something before signing it.

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      1. 0

         EmpressFelicityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Yeah, what a novel concept :snort: 
         
         Politicians not reading things before signing them is unfortunately nothing new though.  Back in 1992 British politician Kenneth Clarke signed us up to the Maastricht treaty, which created the European Union out of the EEC and heralded the formation of the Euro.  He actually admitted later that he hadn't read it* before he signed on the dotted line.
         
         
         
         *http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4213544.stm

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   6. 66

      Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Mike, the right-wingers are like a broken record harping over and over on completely b.s. arguments, not to mention lies and distortions. The truth is coming out and Americans are liking what they are hearing.
      
      Obama approval rating soars says Gallup poll: Health reform bill facts & new health care reform bill summary
      25 March, 2010
      
      Washington: Obama approval rating soars says Gallup poll: Health reform bill facts & new health care reform bill summary. The Senate Republicans have yet not lost their hope regarding the health care bill. Experts had thought the after the bill was signed into law the Republicans would accept it. But not so as they have decided to take recourse in law to halt the bill.
      
      The GOP has pledged to use parliamentary tool to torpedo the measure. They have already taken the initiative in some 13 states where they are in majority. Besides, they are seeking help from the Tea Party activists. They have asked the activists to take the case to the public.
      
      Here's a link to a Washington Post article on the most recent Gallup Poll on the health care bill:
      
      http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-k … ore_p.html
      
      One of the predictions that I and many others had about the health-care reform bill was that it would become more popular after passage than it was before passage. Voters like success, the media covers winners more positively than losers, and people take their cues from outcomes. The first poll taken entirely after the House vote bears that out: 50% were enthusiastic or pleased while 42% were angry or disappointed. Similarly, 49% thought this a good thing for the country while 40% thought it bad.
      
      The poll is a Gallup poll, and as they say, that's a sharp improvement over the pre-passage numbers. On 3/9, they asked whether you'd advise your representative to vote for the bill. About 45% said yes, while 48% said no. So there's been a flip from plurality opposition to plurality support. This is, of course, just one poll, amd soon we'll know if it's a general trend.

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      1. 61

         Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Ralph,
         
         You know all President's get a bump up when a bill passes that they back.
         
         How is his approval rating compared to a year ago; not so good?

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      2. 80

         Uninvited Writerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         But, according to Madam X, Gallup can't be trusted

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2. 0

   Poppa Bluesposted 14 years ago

   At best, lobbyists write the laws and congressional staff read them, then congress votes on them. I don't think half of them ever read a word.

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3. 61

   Padrinoposted 14 years ago

   Why change the tradition of our politicians claiming "I didn't know what was in it" that just seems to be too much hope and change.

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4. 0

   Madame Xposted 14 years ago

   The fact that this question is even being asked just shows how far down the rabbit hole we've fallen.

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   1. 67

      Michael Willisposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      So true!

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5. 60

   Doug Hughesposted 14 years ago

   The way you wingnuts can chew on a false premise is a sight to behold.
   
   The health care bill was WRITTEN buy the democrats. They worked on it for a year. The GOP was totally obstructionist (with a few early exceptions) and was finally excluded after they made it clear from policy statements and votes that their only goal was to sabotage health care reform.
   
   The republicans may or may not have read the bill. But the democrats who voted knew what they were voting on because it was the rpoduct of their effforts.
   
   This is on a stark contrast to the major accomplishments of the GOP Congress of the last decade. Tax cuts for the rich, legislation promoted by the tich, subsidies for the oil companies, following contributions bythe oil companies, legislation for the banks, following congributions by the banks, gegislation for the Rx industry, following (you guessed it) big contributions by the pharma industry.
   
   You haven't seen legislation written by Congress (instead of written by special interests) for the benefit of the People.
   
   Take a valium.

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   1. 60

      Ohmaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You sir are the best justification to date as to why we should all be Republicans.
      It is obvious that you have appointed yourself the beginning and end all of political knowledge but truthfully you know all that condescending attitude is really un called for.
      You Attack and call every one that dares to disagree with you names and imply that they are somehow lees than you because they dared to have an opinion. Get down off the horse you are on Seriously it is way to much animal for you.

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      1. 66

         Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         He's practically the only one on the political forum who backs his opinion up with facts.

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   2. 60

      JON EWALLposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Doug Hughes
      
      doug said
      the democrats who voted knew what they were voting on because it was the rpoduct of their effforts.
      
      Pelosi said
      when the bill is passed, we will know what is in the bill
      
      Obama and the Democrats needed to promise many members to get the votes to pass a bill that may be unconstitutional. Hurry, hurry we need to pass the bill, they passed the healthcare bill on 3/22/10, Obama signed the bill on 3/23/10 before the Democrat members knew what was in the bill.
      
      Obama told the American people that no longer children with pre existing conditions would have to wait for insurance coverage.
      Another Obama promise that was wrong , apparently he didn't read the bill either.
      The facts are that the pre existing coverage don't start until 2014 .
      Wake up America, our government may have committed fraud in passing the healthcare legislation.
      TODAY WAS ANOTHER HISTORIC DAY
      Social Security is paying out to recipients more money then the government takes in. Will the government pay the trust fund for the IOUs in the vaults?
      The trust fund was projected to be broke in 6 years.
      Can the people trust a government estimate?

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      1. 61

         Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Jon,
         
         Always a pleasure to read your writings.

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6. 60

   tony0724posted 14 years ago

   Well Nancy told us we had to pass the bill to see whats in it !

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   1. 66

      Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I wonder how many of the rabble who opposed the bill can even read? They would have to hire somebody to read it aloud to them.

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      1. 60

         tony0724posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Ralph my kids coulda come up with a better one then that ! LOL

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      2. 61

         Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Ralph,
         
         You can say that, but almost 50% of the Republican's are doctors.

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   2. 61

      Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Tony,
      
      I can't see; does that mean I'm a Democrat?

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      1. 60

         tony0724posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Harvey don't scare me !!!

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         1. 61

            Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Tony,
            
            Don't worry.

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7. 70

   Cagsilposted 14 years ago

   It would be helpful that the politicians who take the time to create a bill, do actually read the damn thing.

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   1. 66

      Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You find it hard to believe that anyone would read two thousand pages. I wonder why? A.D.D. perhaps?

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   2. 0

      Ghost32posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      What Cagsil said.

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8. 55

   rose2009posted 14 years ago

   Do you actually listen to and believe  everything that woman says?She will say anything to get the bills she wants to go through.

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9. 57

   foreignpressposted 14 years ago

   It's true that the bill was a work in progress for a year or longer. But not every Democrat read every aspect of the bill before it was voted on. Even Obama admitted he had no idea what was in the bill.
      But in answer to the question, it depends on the agenda. Why is Pelosi, et al,* trying to push this through so quickly? There is a hidden timetable that a few insiders know about and nobody else.
      It's interesting that there's another lure being used to beckon illegal immigrants into this country. The health care bill states that illegals will not pay the "tax" for treatment. So more illegals will flock to the U.S. seeking jobs, free health care and welfare services. But why?
      Once here, the illegals will be given amnesty. As legal citizens they will be taxed by the states and feds. So that's more money into the coffers. Pelosi's plan is for hundreds of millions of illegals to shore up the economy and to financially stabilize the mandated health care.
      Baby Boomers are history. Pelosi sees the United States as a corporation, not a nation, and more "employees" (i.e., illegals) paying into the system are a sound investment. Further, the more ignorant the employees are, the easier it will be to socialize them into a mindless flock.
   ________________________________________________________________
   Pelosi, et al, and not Obama, because Obama does not have the experience, leadership skills, or brains to craft a long term agenda like this.

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   1. 60

      Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Foreignpress said - " Even Obama admitted he had no idea what was in the bill."
      
      I think we have moved from the realm of opinion - to the realm of fiction- or perhaps fantasy. I don't believe he ever said that.
      
      Sarah Palin said " Ya' can't just make stuff up!"

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      1. 61

         Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Doug,
         
         Obama has repeadly admitted e doesn't know a good prtion of what's in the bill. How can anyone?

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10. 93

    habeeposted 14 years ago

    Doug, I once thought you were a reasonable guy, even though I didn't always agree with you. If you really think all the dems read this bill before signing it, you're sadly mistaken! Weiner is a perfect example. He says the IRS will not fine people for refusing to have health insurance! Either he hasn't read the bill, or he's purposely misleading the public! Which is it????
    
    Take two valiums, Doug.

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    1. 60

       Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       It's not a fine. It's a tax, that goes into the Uncompensated Care Fund. Weiner spoke correctly. I haven't seen the quote, so I can't tell if he failed to explain how the actual legal mechanism works.
       
       You are required to purchase insurance, If you don't you are charged a tax - not a fine. And yes, you can get in trouble if you don't pay taxes. It's one of the powers vested in Congress by the Constitution.

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          sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          So let me get this straight. You have to pay a tax to compensate the insurance companies for having to use the money we pay them,Huh?

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       2. 57

          Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          "It's not a fine. It's a tax"
          
          No, it's a fine. A speeding ticket isn't a 'go too fast tax.' A fine for littering isn't a 'filthy jerk tax.' If you drive the speed limit you don't have to pay the fine, if you don't litter you don't have to pay the fine, and if you buy health insurance you don't have to pay the fine.  It's beyond silly semantics to spin an unconstitutional mandate.

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    2. 61

       Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       habee,
       
       I saw that interview also. Weiner didn't have anything to say except; please pass the mustard.

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11. 93

    habeeposted 14 years ago

    I totally agree, Stephen!

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    1. 60

       Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Steven suggested that bills should be read before being passed.
       
       I suggested that since the democrats wrote the bill, they KNEW what was in the bill.
       
       So the question is, why didn't the Republicans read it?

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       1. 57

          Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          "I suggested that since the democrats wrote the bill, they KNEW what was in the bill."
          
          
          That makes no sense. Obama didn't know what was in it, Pelosi didn't know. They don't write bills by putting all members of Congress in one room and agreeing on every word. At the time of the vote virtually no one had read the whole stinking mess.

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          1. 60

             Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             How does it not make sense?  You have complained that republicans were not part of the process. Therefore the bill was entirely the product of the democrats. Only democrats voted for it. Onlly democrats wrote it. From whence comes the claim that the democrats didn't know.
             
             If you are going to put words in the mouth of Obama or Pelosi, exact quotes and sources, please.

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             1. 57

                Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I didn't "complain," I pointed out the fact that Republicans were shut out of the process.
                
                "From whence comes the claim that the democrats didn't know."
                
                Keep reading. This has already been explained to you.
                
                Both pelosi and obama offered weak, transparent evasions when questioned about the fact that they had not read it (no one had) but they didn't deny it.

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                1. 60

                   Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   No quote - no source.   Not true

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                   1. 57

                      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Not my fault you're uninformed. Try paying attention to what is happening in the country sometime.

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             2. 61

                Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Doug,
                
                John Conyers has said; how can you read the whole bill! I think he' still a Democrat.

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                   PrettyPantherposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   There are people on these forums, including yourself and MikeNV, who repeatedly told us all what what would happen when the bill was passed (fines, jail, rationing of health care) yet they have not read the bill.
                   
                   So, how do you know what's in it, Harvey?  Did you read it, or did you rely on someone else to tell you?

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12. 0

    sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago

    Noooooooooo!!! You pass the bill first then you get the surprise, what the hell is wrong with you!

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13. 93

    habeeposted 14 years ago

    So, Mr. Deeds, if we support some parts of the law but not others, does that mean we can "kinda" read??

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14. 93

    habeeposted 14 years ago

    You're mincing words, Doug. The "tax" is a "fine." It's a punishment. And BTW, Doug, since you've read all these bills, I'm sure you're aware that in the original House version, people who did not pay the fine would go to jail. It was changed in the Senate bill.

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15. 93

    habeeposted 14 years ago

    Exactly. One part is written by one group or committee, and another is composed by a different bunch.

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16. 68

    MikeNVposted 14 years ago

    And this just in:
    
    "Fed up with waiting, President Barack Obama announced Saturday he would bypass a vacationing Senate and name 15 people to key administration jobs, wielding for the first time the blunt political tool known as the recess appointment."
    
    Wait until the Senate goes on Vacation to make all your appointments.  That's some leadership.
    
    Obama is a Fraud.  Can't get anything done.  Can't even bring his own party together.
    
    He operates the slimeball Liar oops Laywer that he is... looking for every little loophole to weasel through his agenda.
    
    Clinton looks like a Hero compared to Obama.  Clinton was not my guy but at least he know how to involve both parties... and persuade his how party.
    
    Obama is destroying his own party because of his inexperience and inability to get people to work together.
    
    The question doesn't just pertain to Health Care... it pertains to ANY Bill.
    
    Bills are being voted on that are not being read.  These are laws people... laws you are FORCED to abide by.
    
    Obama Lies:
    
    "My administration is committed to creating an unprecedented level of openness in government."
    
    WASHINGTON — One year into its promise of greater government transparency, the Obama administration is more often citing exceptions to the nation's open records law to withhold federal records even as the number of requests for information declines, according to a review by The Associated Press of agency audits about the Freedom of Information Act.
    
    “Too often bills are rushed through Congress and to the president before the public has the opportunity to review them,” the Obama-Biden campaign website states. “As president, Obama will not sign any non-emergency bill without giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House website for five days.”
    
    Obama signed the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act only two days after it received final passage last week, and it wasn’t posted on the White House website until after it became law.
    
    Pretty much the definition of a liar is one who lies.
    
    And these are statements of fact as reported by the PRESS not the Republican party.

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    1. 61

       Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Mike,
       
       If Obama spoke the truth he would stii be in JR College. He is the best liar I have ever seen.

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17. 93

    habeeposted 14 years ago

    Yeah, what happened to that 5-day rule?? and what about the CSpan coverage??

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    1. 0

       sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Habee(Hi!) look woman you're trying to make sense again, whats wrong with you?

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18. 70

    alexandriaruthkposted 14 years ago

    no way, they gotta do what they need to do,

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19. 60

    Doug Hughesposted 14 years ago

    MikeNV - Your rant ignnores and denies facts in evidence.
    
    Regarding the appointments, President Obama said -
    
    "Most of the men and women whose appointments I am announcing today were approved by Senate committees months ago, yet still await a vote of the Senate. At a time of economic emergency, two top appointees to the Department of Treasury have been held up for nearly six months. I simply cannot allow partisan politics to stand in the way of the basic functioning of government."
    
    He's running the country despite the efforts of the party of NO.
    
    "Obama is a Fraud.  Can't get anything done.  Can't even bring his own party together."
    
    I know it's only been a week but - did you hear the most significant piece of social legislation in 40 years was PASSED by democrats ONLY and was signed into law this week by President Obama.
    
    The Fair PAY Act was opposed by Republicans (surprise, surprise) and has been available online for months. If it wasn't posted on the  WH web site, you are picking at nits. There was no secrecy or evasion. Democrats support fair pay for women. Republicans don't -
    
    The overt sexism of the republicans was on display last year in the Senate. 
    
    http://www.alternet.org/blogs/healthwel … gang_rape/
    
    Offering Ms. Jones legal relief was Senator Al Franken of Minnesota who offered an amendment to the 2010 Defense Appropriations bill that would withhold defense contracts from companies like KBR "if they restrict their employees from taking workplace sexual assault, battery and discrimination cases to court."
    
    Incredible but true - thirty Republican Senators voted in favor of the gang rape of an American working in Iraq who could not sue the co-workers who got away with it because they were shielded by the employment contract. The republicans voted in favor of company-sponsored rape.
    
    Your outrage about democrats making progress in promoting equal pay and equal protection under the law against the best efforts of the knuckle-dragging  GOP neanderthals in the Senate rings hollow.

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    1. 61

       Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Doug,
       
       You faithful Democrat. Mike is trying to help teach you, but a good Democrat doesn't listen.
       
       Obama always waits for Congress to be out of town, or he goes out of the country to apologize.
       
       What are you gong to say about how much the people love what Obama is doing in November?

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          EmpressFelicityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I've noticed that the self-styled Democrats on here all seem to be having the same reaction to comments from the "other side".  It's almost like a Pavlovian response: "hear something critical of Obama's policies, put hands over ears and go lalala", and/or "throw out some disparaging remarks and ad hominems rather than addressing the meat of what anyone's got to say".
          
          Had it not occurred to you that at least some of the "other side's" points might have merit, and it's worth at least trying to examine your own position to see if it holds water?
          
          I noticed a similar thing going the other way, when I was participating in Internet forums during the run-up to the Iraq war in 2002/2003.  Only the difference was that among all the insults, at least some of the pro-war Republican people were actually prepared to have a proper debate with me.

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20. 57

    Sab Ohposted 14 years ago

    We're gonna need ten years do undo the damage this fool does to our country in his four years.

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21. 0

    PrettyPantherposted 14 years ago

    MikeNV wrote:
    
        Or should they just be voted on and made into law and "fixed" later.
    
        Maybe this is the new Government Paradigm.
    
        Make laws that only a select few are privy too... then just fix them later.
    
        That's an interesting plan.
    
    Mike, your entire premise is just silliness.  First, it isn't new, and you know that, yet you say it is.
    
    Second, do you honestly believe that every legislator has time to read every single word of every single bill that they vote on?  They have staff who are responsible for that.  Just like a CEO of corporation doesn't read every document that his company produces, neither does a legislator read every word of every bill that he or she votes on.  There simply isn't enough time.  They should, however, understand the ramifications of all of the provisions before voting.
    
    Now, if you want to paint that as some evil conspiracy, you go right ahead, but you make yourself and others who buy into it look pretty silly.

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