Is there a value added to life by being created by a god?
Not because we hope God will provide a purpose, rather that God is the purpose.
And no, my belief is for sure not mainly about feeling like life has a purpose, as you put it. Rather belief in the Christian God (or any god for that matter) is much more complicated. It's a way of life. There is no other way of life besides Him when you have Him. He impacts the choices I make, the way I think, how I love, when I am challenged. When I go through disappointment, I know there is a purpose to it. When I fail, I have encouragement to try again without growing weary. Yet, belief in God is not really about me at all. Like I said, complicated
But awesome. It's a mystery much of the time.
One of those things one will never know until he or she has experienced it.
I was kidding. I have to admit not knowing what you meant. I thought "life is not a hamburger." was a rather funny way of looking at things. But thanks for explaining. I think I know what you are getting at now.
- just_curiousposted 13 years ago
0 I guess that indicates that you don't believe in a God, so are you qualified to answer the question?
Yes, a mindset of rationale, reason and logic as opposed to a mindset of gullibility, indoctrination and denial.
No, rationale and reason are not used by believers for their core beliefs. You are referring to indoctrination.
That is true, one must look at the specific claims made by religions in order to see if they are valid or not.
That is a ridiculous thing to say. Can you prove it did happen?
Of course not, you are invoking magic, which violates the laws of physics. If you actually used rationale and reason, you would come to the same conclusion.Yes, you've come to observe and experience every word in the bible without ever having read or heard of the bible, or Jesus, or anything else printed there. Yeah, right.
This is true, you are free to continue deluding yourself that magic is real and we can bring the dead back to life.
Yeah, it's called magic.
It is more than a leap of faith, it is a denial of reality, plain and simple.Yes well, there are so many definitions of gods floating around these forums, it's hard to keep track, especially when so many of the definitions contradict one another.
So, what is your definition of your god?
In the way I'm speaking? How is that, exactly?
Nonetheless, gods can't die, so Jesus never died, if you believe he is a god.
Yes, I understand you can't explain your beliefs without invoking magic.
That is the difference between you and I, in that you won't accept being handed "proof positive" whereas, I would. If you can provide "proof positive" please do, if not, then you're tirade is just another logical fallacy.
My "beliefs" if that's what you prefer to call them, are based on the laws of the universe and nature while your beliefs are based on magic. Massive difference. One end of the spectrum of rationale and reason to the other end.
Yes, failing to see the point of a discussion has been mentioned to you on several occasions.
Slarty:
Excellent!
That was a masterful precis on ones growth from pubescent ignorance to adult enlightenment!
I enjoyed that read!!
It should have been a "hub.":
QwarkThanks. I refined it a bit and published it a few minutes ago.
Thanks. Me too.
"Slarty, I usually refrain from reading Hub sized posts. I've always considered them signs of an overly developed need to preach a point, but I felt some curiousity so, I trudged through yours. Although I am perfectly willing to put up with the atheist view I have grown tired of it now, so unfortunately I have chosen your post to reply to."
Well. My desire is not so much to preach as to explain. I did a hub on your comments explaining why atheists are obnoxious. That may explain some of this to you, if you can trudge through it, of course.
"Please do not presume that having been raised Catholic gives you some insight into the religious mind of another. With the host of saints your childhood religion claims as patrons, I do not doubt that you have felt watched over. I cannot speak for the average Protestant, but mine was an upbringing that included two things only. We went to church on Sunday, and we knew that to take the Lord's name in vain would result in a punishment worth avoiding. The protestant education I had was little more than a lot of singing, passing the plate, and about a 15 minute sermon before we all headed to lunch. We were not a pious bunch."
That is the problem and what I try to explain in the hub I mentioned. All Christians are different. I don't presume to know what you experienced, I was just telling you mine, and that it too was religious based. Why Christians hate Catholics is beyond reason. But that too is par for the protestant course. Catholicism was once an ideal life, so I am told. Everyone knew their place in life and everything was standardized. It was all pretty rose coloured according to my mother.
"I don't know that I have had vivid religious experience. I suppose if I thought I saw an angel sitting on my shoulder, or had tea with God, maybe. I have little more knowledge from my limited experience than to be able to state, unequivicably, that there is more to this world than we can see. I attribute it to God, and I admit I could be wrong. But, due to the nature of the knowledge, I don't think so."
My point was that even without profound religious experiences, a childhood filled with religious ideas is hard to get away from, and most don't see a need to or have a desire to. So naturally you will attribute events in your life to your given belief, even if change religions, your belief that there is for sure a god is part of your thinking. But there is not for sure a god and your thoughts may well be just training. You have to figure that out for yourself. Yes, there is much more to it all than we see. But it isn’t magical.
"Religion does not appear to me to have anything to do with a survival function in modern society. Quite the opposite has been my observation. If you belive it has to do with imagination and creative thinking, perhaps you need to read a little more. I have seen quite imaginative works by professed atheists."
Well you misread my meaning. I have met a lot of creative atheists too. My point was we have a part of the brain that be manipulated to see and experience things that are not there. So your brain can not be trusted to always give accurate information.
"Interesting statement. Never having had any experiences as you described, I wouldn't want to comment, or judge. This is one of the problems I have with those of no faith. It is, in my opinon, the height of arrogance to assume you know the truth of another person's experiences."
And that can be said of theists as well. But I was not assuming, merely explaining that the brain itself can be deceptive so interpretation of experience is not trustworthy.
"I understand completely. I believe organized religion has built fantasies around a basic concept in order to ensure a wealth of topics to preach on, and to control the masses. The Catholic church has had much more time to fine tune this concept, so I would imagine their philosophy to be highly entertaining to an adult and confusing to a child."
It is, as is the philosophy of all religions. And don't think for a moment that Protestantism does not set out to control the masses. Perhaps your brand does not, but I doubt it.
"I have heard this before. I am sorry that you were raised in such an environment."
I was raised very well, thank you. Nothing to be sorry for. I was allowed to think for myself and leave the church at age 6.
" I was allowed to read, if I so chose. I never bothered. I didn't read the Bible until I was well past 18. I won't bore you with but a small amount of my interpretation. The history of the Old Testament was shown to help us see that the world without the Love of our fellow man or God was untenable. The New Testament is primarily there to show us another way. Basic end of story. The need to read too much into this concept and build a faith of exclusivity is sad, but does not reflect on the intent of our Maker."
I think you have that wrong. The OT is there to tell you to obey god or else. The new is to tell you to love your fellow man and obey god or else. You are obviously not a fundy or you wouldn't cherry pick what to believe and what not to. But if you not base your faith on the literal word of the bible you have very little to base it on, indeed. If you cherry pick you are basically building your own religion. That’s fine by me, of course.
"Good for you, I say. I believe we all have a piece of the truth. All religions are trying to share the piece they see. It would do everyone good to follow in your footsteps in their quest for knowledge."
Well that we agree on.
"I understand your statement."
I wish you had left some in so I knew which one.
" I find science exhilarating too. Our quest for knowledge should not be limited to one avenue. We have the right, as a species, to search for the answers to the secrets of the universe. I anxiously await each new discovery. But to believe that we know it all, and science is the end all quest is, in my opinion, searching with blinders on."
No scientist in their right mind would tell you we know it all. In fact, that is the point of not believing anything. That includes scientific interpretations as opposed to facts. Using the scientific method as part of your thought process eliminates the idea that you know much of anything for sure. We think in probabilities and reasonable logical explanations. Or try to, anyway.
"If it makes you happy, then it is the right path for you. I don't know that I would believe anyone could be happy with materialism as part of their core belief."
I am not sure you understand what it means. I could explain it to you if you like. But it isn't a core belief, it is a reasonable model.
" Atheism, I have no idea. I have run across a happy atheist or two. They appear to be very far and few in between. The atheists I have encountered appear to me as little more than bitter about their lot. It comes off as sad. Although my heart goes out to them, I can hope that someday they find the peace we all deserve. "
I found peace in atheism where as I couldn't in religion. Again, I don't think Christians can understand atheism and don't really want to. Some atheists can't understand religion, if they have never had one. It's the same thing. You should try it.
"I fear I would doubt this statement. It has been many years since I felt the Hand of God move in my life. It is something that has stayed with me. I am not an irrational person and I would attribute the experience to chance if it were, in any way, possible. I have certainly tried. I do not believe that anyone that can rule out all other possibilities could do any different. But, as always, I could be wrong."
Chance? In a cause and effect world there is no chance or truly random act. There is only cause and effect. But again, I don't know what statement you are talking about as you took it out.
"OK, I was done responding, but I had to comment on this."
On WHAT?
" Give me a break. With no knowledge of another, how could you make such a statement? This flippant disregard for the intellect and honesty of your fellow man is one reason that I find the atheist viewpoint so impossible to follow. Having no knowledge of the experiences another person has had, I tend to err on the side of caution. I would never consider brushing them away as if speaking to a child. It would leave me little room to learn."
The brain is not to be trusted. It has nothing to do with you in particular. My comment had to do with all brains. Mine as well. That's the point. You too can have out of body experiences and gain a state of "enlightenment". The brain is willing. But it's a parlour trick. Not real. The brain is amazing. It can even invent gods.
Would someone be kind enuf to explain this "personal thing" that is so often mentioned about "knowledge" of this god thing?
What is this "experience" that so many say happens that they can't explain, yet seem to think it to be so powerful that they guide thier actions and life by it?
I know what the answers are I'm gonna get. They're gonna be the same trite answers I got in seminary. arghhh!
I'm just hoping for sumthin' well thought out and expressed by someone who isn't just expressing emotion.
I think if someone could, I might be tempted to believe in "miracles.":
QwarkCurious:
..same reason ya'll have for your beliefs in supernatural heroes i.e. "hope.":
Qwark
How odd - I thought you did not go for that?
what is this? Do you all know each other? I swear every time one of you makes me tiffy I get swarmed. It isn't anything other than Beelzedad being difficult. This one is not my fault.
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