I'd like feedback on my Hub: Spirituality and Education | How to...

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   DasEngelposted 8 years ago

   Hi Hubbers,
   
   I'd like some feedback on my work. Will you please give feedback to my hub: Spirituality and Education | How to Revolutionize School Education Worldwide.
   
   Thanks.

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      Will Apseposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I would get a bit more focus.
      
      The real issue seems to be how can you teach (or believe in) spirituality in a world where both philosophers (after Kant, at least) and scientists no longer take the notion of the soul seriously. In the last couple of centuries all religious beliefs have been shunted  into the realm of the noumenal by serious thinkers where neither the senses nor reason can penetrate and all rational inquiry is impossible.
      
      Frame the page in the context of this kind of debate instead of your own entirely personal concerns and fantasies (e.g. teachers courts) and it might become interesting to a wider audience.
      
      I would also avoid memes. These are hopelessly outdated and will lose you the respect of most potential readers.
      
      Hope this helps.

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         DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         When you have to make a serious decision in life, do you consult scientists or yourself?

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            theraggededgeposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            "When you have to make a serious decision in life, do you consult scientists or yourself?"
            
            When you ask for and receive feedback, you don't throw it back in the face of the person who took the trouble to read your hub. You say thank you, and take what works for you and leave the rest.
            
            If you don't want honest and helpful feedback, then don't ask for it. It's not yet another reason for you to start a 'forum war' (your words, not mine).

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               DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               It was a gentle, sincere, and respectful query from me that was delivered in a succinctly elegant manner.  ^_^

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                  psycheskinnerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  It was an off topic interrogation of a responder's beliefs.  That belongs in the "topical" side of this form on the "hub" side.  A division that has made these forums so much nicer IMHO and needs to be respected.
                  
                  The point is, give you hub a clear audience and a clear message.  If you are not addressing  atheists, make it clear what type of audience you are addressing in the hub.

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                     DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     That was a very logical, visibly practical query, emerging out of the necessity for clarification arising out of the existence of data that had been voluntarily provided. :-)

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                        psycheskinnerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                        Its provision is sufficiently obfuscated that despite assiduous search I have been unable to discern it.
                        
                        Or in the plain language people generally use when making a good faith effort to communicate: Start your hub by saying what the hub is about and who might be interested in, or assisted by, reading it.

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                           DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                           That hub is designed to 'get' the reader, and drag them.

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                              psycheskinnerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                              Do you really intend every human on every nation with every faith to be absorbed by this? I think that is an unrealistic aspiration and you should focus on people who have any reason to care.  Specifically, those who more-or-less agree with you goals and live in more or less the zone where they apply.
                              
                              I doubt that I would ever care no matter how smashingly you wrote it.  It is just that irrelevant to me.

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                                 DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                 I had placed it under 'human rights' category of hubs.

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                              Fahsionbootsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                              I don't get too involved in these topics (its a bit over my head) but you could engage me more if there was a poll. When you set up this voting system it makes you set out points very clearly...like a few of the other hubbers that have comment  here have suggested...it would make it a bit easier for me to understand. Even a not too difficult quiz could be included. What about include a map at the very bottom of the approximate area where you live or the catchment area you feel is affected? Even if its the USA that would help me as I don't live there or Washington where the president lives.Hope this helps.

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                                 Will Apseposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                 It is pretty simple really. Three hundred years ago there was plenty of 'proof' in classical and Christian philosophy that human beings had a soul.
                                 
                                 Kant took each philosophical argument supporting this idea, dissected it and dismissed it. He was so convincing that philosophy was obliged to forget the 'soul'. It shifted its attention to the notion of the self.
                                 
                                 Given that education deals in rational argument, facts and evaluation of data it was never going to get involved in spirituality again. The very idea of 'teaching spirituality' sounds strange to modern ears.
                                 
                                 Nowadays, believe in matters spiritual can only come from personal experience. Nothing wrong with that.
                                 
                                 Anyone who tackles these issues without an awareness of the historical background is going to find it hard to produce a page that really addresses the issues.
                                 
                                 It would be an interesting subject with the right treatment.

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                                    DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                    Emmanuel Kant?
                                    
                                    Hmmm..  never read that fellow!

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                                       Will Apseposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                       Now is a wonderful opportunity! I think your hub has real potential.

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                                          DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                          Thank you. But I did read him, along with Hume, Schopenhauer, Schelling, kierkegaard etc. I even studied Hindu philosophy as well. They are more subtle than Greek philosophy. Do check out Adi Shankaracharya and his philosophy. It's lofty and sublime.
                                          
                                          The problem with them? They don't work once you cross the horizon.

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                                          DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                          But I find your suggestion helpful. I think I'll create another hub on the topic that you've mentioned, and put these two hubs on a group.

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                                 DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                 Thanks, and your ideas are really good and helpful. I'll edit that hub to implement the suggestions. Thanks again and have a great day. :-)

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            Will Apseposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry if I offended you.
            
            I sense a crisis of faith here. A desire for physical evidence or at least government sanctioned education to support your doubt filled beliefs.
            
            That might be good subject for a hub, of course. If you could add some rigor to the arguments.
            
            I should say that my wife is a Buddhist and my closest friend is a Catholic. They have faith and that is enough for them. I don't question it.

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               DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               If the need be, I'll change the government.

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                  Will Apseposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  That's the spirit.
                  
                  Sharpen a pitchfork and invade Washington.
                  
                  Anyway, I'm glad we had this little chat. But it is six o'clock on a Friday evening and time for the bar.
                  
                  As a final thought: I sense your education system would produce a lot of people who were never confident in any of their beliefs or comfortable in their own skins.

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                     DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     It's mostly done by voting-machines.

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      Kylyssaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      My feedback is to change the comment section to read "Have your say but only if you enthusiastically agree with everything I say."
      
      Since you don't actually take disagreeing comments on your hub, I'll put one here.
      
      I disagree with your premise and I think that teaching children that their eighty or so years of life on earth are meaningless and focusing only on their afterlife will not have the effect you want. It would be cruel to fail to prepare children for survival because you just don't think human life here on earth is important based on your religious beliefs. Teaching people life is meaningless and that only the afterlife matters will teach believers to yearn for it and give no direction for children who want to live their lives as best they can rather than just muddle through them until they get to die.
      
      There are a lot of things that are good, kind, creative, and fulfilling to do right here in life and right now and you don't have to teach despair to children to teach them that. The despair you think you'd feel about existing due to natural events in an amazing universe is one purely of the imagination. There's nothing sad about thinking you're a living, breathing part of reality. Life doesn't need to last forever to be amazing or worth living.
      
      I also dislike the philosophy because it's almost identical to that used by religious conservatives in America to explain why they think helping the poor, even through private charities, is a bad thing. Supposedly, I'm hurting people every time I give a homeless person food, comfort, a place to sleep, or even tampons because suffering is good for the soul and only the afterlife has any meaning.
      
      I went on to say that schools currently don't follow the model you claim but are intended to produce certain kinds of workers for businesses rather than for giving children the best shot in life. If we switched the focus in education from businesses to the children themselves and the society they need to live in, the results would be better than if we take a "life is meaningless" approach.

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         DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         You might have noticed that most of my hubs, including the one that you're referring here, are set to be non-commercial as well.

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            Kylyssaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Your response has nothing to do with the comment. Setting the hub to non-commercial is all fine and dandy but it has nothing to do with refusing comments that disagree with you or teaching children life is unimportant.

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               DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               What makes you think that I think that life is unimportant?

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                  Kylyssaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Try reading your own hub from the perspective of someone who doesn't think there's an afterlife. You think partially understanding our biological origins makes life meaningless if that information doesn't match with your desire to live forever.

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                     DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     ~ You think partially understanding our biological origins makes life meaningless if that information doesn't match with your desire to live forever. ~
                     
                     
                     If that were all that they ever did in schools, I might have kept my silence.

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         DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         A Curious Question: What Does GOD Look Like?
         
         
         "The world has much to offer to a soul. There is too much to do here, and there is too little time. It may take a whole lifetime even to realize the basic fact that life is ultimately not for making money or running after mirages.
         
         We need to cleanse our hearts and souls. And clear our heads. And we need to see and experience as much of the world, as we can. When time comes, we'll know in our heart that it's time to return home."

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            Kylyssaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I agree with you that the current educational system is far from adequate for the needs of people. If it served children rather than the oligarchy, it would be a step in the right direction. It's not teaching science in schools that's causing children to flounder as adults; it's teaching them to be good little consumers and laborers that fit a specific model that does it. Creating a theocracy won't fix it. Adding God to schools and removing religious freedom won't help. You'll just create a lot of science-illiterate kids and a bunch who have to live in the closet and keep their own thoughts about the nature of reality quiet.
            
            Historically, every attempt to require people to all believe the same thing has either fizzled or failed spectacularly.
            
            I don't think life is a meaningless intermission. I think it's all we get, so we have to be the people we want to be now or never. I also think reducing the suffering of ourselves and others is the way to make life better for everyone.
            
            Ignoring the suffering or writing it off as preparation for heaven or eternal torment is a huge cop-out.
            
            Children need to be taught about life and how they can fit into it to avoid causing suffering and to ease suffering where they see it. It's suffering that blocks human potential to achieve great things and great joy much of the time. If you ignore the needs children will have as adults, you will do them a great disservice and encourage suffering.
            
            Since you aren't secure enough in your beliefs to allow dissenting comments on your hub, maybe you aren't spiritually ready to propose changing the educational system to suit your wants and desires? Anyway, it's fairly clear you're just playing a game to get people to find your post controversial so I'm not going to play it anymore.

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               DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               The problem, as I see it, is that schools do not consider children as persons. I'm finishing it off in a sentence, but I can elaborate it as well.

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                  Kylyssaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  I agree that most schools don't think of children as people, but I disagree with where you think the problem is. I don't think teaching science and observable reality are the problems, I think out of control capitalism and rule by oligarchy are the problems. If it were lack of God in school, the religious schools wouldn't have the exact same problems that public schools have and they do. Most religious schools don't treat children any more like people than any other schools.
                  
                  Traditional schools train children to stay in one place all day, obey authority without question, respect wealth for its own sake, develop a tolerance for very boring tasks, accept the modern version of the Just War theory, and learn skills valuable to potential employers. There's a striking absence of classes that prepare children for adult life outside the workplace.
                  
                  I think you'd find my idea of an ideal school would be quite similar to yours, minus the forced religious beliefs and adding back in science taught in a different, practical, and more enjoyable way.
                  
                  We're living, breathing, thinking, creating, loving pieces of the universe and I don't need more than that to feel impressed, amazed, and grateful. You don't need to force a religious belief on people for them to appreciate how utterly amazing life is. People know it instinctively. Children instinctively feel wonder and they're bursting with creativity until it's crushed out of them. All you need to do is stop that smothering of instinctive wonder and curiosity; you don't need to replace oppression of creativity with the removal of religious freedom.
                  
                  I was going to disengage from this conversation, but now you're engaging in it like you aren't just trying to prove a point or trying to mess with people.

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                     DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     Thank you. Although we both  do agree what an ideal school ought to be like, I doubt we will see one within our lifetime. But I think it's possible, and precursors tell me that the world is nearing that goal.

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                        Kylyssaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                        I full well expect to live to see schools approaching what I consider the ideal because the current model isn't working well and now that people can't avoid awareness of that fact, it will change. Humans are, by nature, problem solvers. Humans also want their children to have the best chances for survival and happiness. If you combine that natural aptitude with that instinctive desire and inform other people with the same desires, things that thwart them will not last forever.

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                        theraggededgeposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                        It's pretty simple... home school. In the UK, many of us follow the autonomous route, allowing our children the freedom to explore their own interests... I have a hub: Home School Education - Deschooling, which explains how it worked for us.
                        
                        As far as spirituality is concerned, I leave them alone. They'll find their own way.

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   Aliswellposted 8 years ago

   Very Raw and Lengthy accumulation of words, but my interest would be more towards what elevated your emotions to write about these topics???

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   Aliswellposted 8 years ago

   That hub is designed to 'get' the reader, and drag them
   Mission Accomplished...But what did you get from it??? Do you feel better from it, or was it just an exercise to excuse yourself from facing a Demon that will Not be released just by someone else's words?

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   Peter Grujicposted 8 years ago

   It is well written and researched. Very intense and strong. I think the problem lies in HP's QAP process. For the first time after 25 featured  articles they did the same to me and I had fellow pharmacists, not to mention nurse and doctor friends read mine and they liked it. If you like it, then make a few changes you may think may need changed and re-summit it. As I said, I liked it.

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      DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks. :-)

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   theraggededgeposted 8 years ago

   Oh my goodness... this thread is ranking #1 on Google for the keywords "Spirituality and Education | How to Revolutionize School Education Worldwide."
   
   Das Engle, you little fuhrer, you've done it again.
   
   Personally, I think the hub is too full of 'should's and 'would's.

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      DasEngelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      ha ha! Wait a year or so, Bip. :-)

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