Quote of the Day - Julian Assange

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   Kenna McHughposted 5 years ago

   
   "You have to start with the truth. The truth is the only way that we can get anywhere. Because any decision-making that is based upon lies or ignorance can't lead to a good conclusion."
   -- Julian Assage

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      TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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         theraggededgeposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         Don't like to disagree with you, but it's perfectly possible to believe in a divine entity or God without being religious. A religion is system of practices and views. There are many people who are religious (such as belonging to a faith or church) who don't believe in God.
         
         And of course people's opinions are of equal worth to whatever they compare them with - that's how humans operate. That doesn't mean you have to agree or see it in the same way.
         
         The problem with evidence-based facts is that they can change; be turned on their heads even, as science discovers more. Nothing is written in stone. Even the idea that CO2 causes global warming.
         
         Open mindedness and the willingness to change your beliefs is always a good thing

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   theraggededgeposted 5 years ago

   Here's what your Guardian says,
   
   https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr … eve-in-god
   
   I believe in some kind of intelligent force, I can't define it, but I feel there is 'something'. However, I am not in any way religious. Religious people follow a code or set of behaviours or are affiliated to some organisation. They observe certain customs in accordance with their faith. However, I can go outside at night, look up at the sky and feel filled with awe at the apparent coincidental mechanisms that keep our little planet floating in exactly the right place and circumstances to sustain life. It's spiritual, not religious.
   
   What I'm trying to say is that the man you were talking to knows whether he is religious or not. He gets to decide.
   
   My point about people's opinions is that they are valuable to the individual who is expressing them, not to some self-appointed opinion-judge. A seven year old's opinion is just as valid and equal as a 70 year old's... to that child.
   
   And how often has some observation or remark by a non-expert been the key that unlocks the next level of knowledge. Hundreds and even thousands of years ago, people recorded their observations, opinions and calculations of the world around them and the sky above, and we are now discovering they were right all along. They didn't have doctorates.
   
   I'm not sure what your point is about women saying that everyone gets a chance to be right. However EVERYONE has the right to their own beliefs; they also have the right to express their opinion and to decide whether they are religious or not.

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   theraggededgeposted 5 years ago

   In my opinion, your analogies are all rather silly

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   lobobrandonposted 5 years ago

   I disagree with both of you, Tess and Bev.
   
   CO2 is a greenhouse gas there's nothing that will change that. To save myself some time, I'm going to paste something below. Facts are not always up to change, some facts are set in stone. Water is made up of 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom, it's set in stone. CO2 is a greenhouse gas and that's set in stone. How much it contributes or how it contributes to the issue we are facing right now is a different story, not one I will get into.
   
   BEGIN QUOTE:
   Nitrogen, oxygen and argon together make up close to 100 percent of the atmosphere. But all three are invisible to incoming "short-wave" radiation from the sun and outgoing "long-wave" radiation from the Earth's surface. They play no role in regulating the planet's atmospheric temperature.
   
   But carbon dioxide and other trace gases in the atmosphere do absorb the outgoing long-wave radiation.
   
   So while their concentrations are minuscule, their effect is anything but: If the atmosphere didn't have those trace amounts of greenhouse gases, New York City would be covered in ice sheets – not sweltering  – on a typical summer afternoon. The globe's average temperature would be almost 60 degrees Fahrenheit lower.
   END QUOTE
   
   Tess, you seem to be mixing up the word religion with the word religious. Your definition of religion is right, but this is what it means to be religious:
   
   "relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity"
   " of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances"
   
   You can believe that there is a God but not worship that said God or follow any particular form of devotion and observance.  Thus someone can very rightly say they believe in a God or multiple Gods but are not religious. I know the rules of football and I know it's a sport, this does not make me a football player.

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      Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      CO2 and football are tangible truths because they are measurable. God, faith, religion, or religious are immeasurable. You cannot measure one's faith or desired faith. You cannot measure the power or influence of God or faith. It's a personal journey for the ultimate truth in one's religious belief.
      By the way, I like the thought-provoking comments.

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         TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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            Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Ahh, the argument is based on illusions or delusions. And, these cannot be measured either. But, knowing God is a personal matter that cannot be quantified or carried in one's pocket for show and tell.  Thus, the trickster can enter and say all sorts of things about religion.

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               TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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                  Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  You are saying we are not sentient or aware of being alive. When we die, we morph into Earth and never live again.

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         lobobrandonposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         I don't think there was a comparison between CO2 and football with religion. I was just replying to previous comments.

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            Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            No worries.

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      TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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         lobobrandonposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         With the info you gave me about Trump in the first paragraph, yes, he does not have to necessarily obey that God, the same way some kids know for a fact that they have parents and they know that they must obey but they choose not to.
         
         The people who went to church every Sunday are religious. That's the textbook definition of being relgious, following a certain practice.

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   Will Apseposted 5 years ago

   The first thing you learn in science is that common sense is not to be trusted. The world may look flat but it isn't.
   
   Comforting stories are not to be trusted either. Earth, water, air and fire made a satisfying set of elements in the ancient world but adds up to a poor understanding of the physical world.
   
   I could go on but I know I am wasting my time, lol.
   
   'Tis the populist age, and what people want to be true, suddenly is true.

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      TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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         Will Apseposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         Populism is fine except for the fact that  populists are so easy to manipulate.
         
         I trust the decency of ordinary folk far more than I trust the decency of governments. I trust that decency far more than I trust the decency of corporations.
         
         But bad actors can so easily exploit anyone who is not willing check the facts and question the motives of their "leaders".

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            Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            We need more people who can honestly lead.

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               TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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                  Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  If you believe in spontaneous combustion, yes, atheists lead.

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            TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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               Will Apseposted 5 years agoin reply to this

               Sorry to hear that, but a bad experience with one group of religionists, is not a good reason to denounce all religionists.
               
               Or you are obliged to reject most of humanity.

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                  TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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                     Will Apseposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                     Does it matter that they are mistaken? There are enough pluses in Christianity to give it a pass. As long as you avoid the zealots.
                     
                     I have a feeling that for whatever reason (upbringing?) you were attracted to zealots and then took a long time to get around to rejecting them.
                     
                     Something that you needed to do for your own development?

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                        TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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                           Will Apseposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                           Religion can certainly become part of the apparatus of repression in very repressive regimes. You were lucky to escape it.
                           
                           I don't think you will really be free of the past though until you realize that  it was the politics that was the problem not the religion.
                           
                           Why don't you blame the medical establishment in the South Africa of your youth, or the education system or all the other aspects of the state that could have helped you but did not?
                           
                           Why the special animus for Christians?

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                              TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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                                 Will Apseposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                                 Not a believer, myself but I know and value some who are. None of them are zealots. People in the UK are loath to talk about their faith, usually. Very few are evangelical.
                                 
                                 It sounds to me as if you fell into the clutches of a cult.

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                           lobobrandonposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                           "None of this came from the church. The church was filled with ignorant, uneducated, narrow-minded people. All of them."
                           
                           I disagree with this statement just because you say ALL of them. I was raised Catholic and my schooling was in a Jesuit institution (the same order of the current Pope) and I had a few priests and many other Catholic teachers among others. All of them were very educated and not narrow-minded at all. Yes, in this case, I did say ALL. This does not mean that I have not meant narrow-minded people.
                           
                           Some of the finest doctors, psychologists, and parents I know are Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Jain. Then there are those who are stupid and take relgion to an extreme, the extremists. Those are the stupid, ignorant, narrow-minded people.
                           
                           For Easter, I was in the UK and helped an aunt in the Church and there were many old women helping out. I heard a conversation among them where they say that they are happy that their Catholic church is accepting and helpful to everyone whether they are gay, divorced, etc. Seems like not all of them are narrow-minded even though they are religious.
                           
                           I'm sure it's different for those who are religious to be able to distinguish fact from fiction. But some of the prominent scientists in all fields are religious. Having a friend, imaginary or not does not seem to be the cause for people not being able to analyze fact. It's just something that many of them have in common as it's something a majority of the population has in common. There are a few atheists that I have seen on Youtube that believe that the Earth is flat.
                           
                           Being dumb and being religious don't go hand in hand. But if someone is dumb and is religious, dangerous things can happen.

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               Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

               I am sorry to hear this happened. Not every Christian or every church will lie or lead their congregation with duress and emotional upheaval.

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                  TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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                     Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                     Tess,
                     I hope your research helped you understand your plight, and you found solace.

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      Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Viability of an idea or thing is a good way to measure the truth of it.  Does it truly help society or worsen society?

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         Will Apseposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         Not quite sure what you are saying but an idea that has been wrong for a thousand years is still wrong today.

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            Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            History is filled with leaders who lied, maimed and killed thousands and millions of people.

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               TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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                  Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Ahh, that is where our responsibilities come into play.

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      lobobrandonposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Earth, water, air and fire are still the same thing though. We don't understand them any different. At one time we thought the atom was the smallest element, but now we know better. This does not mean that the atom does not exist anymore.

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         Will Apseposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         Sorry Brandon, but we do understand each of those aspects of nature a good deal better than the Greeks and I am sure you could reel off their properties as well I could.
         
         Also, they are not elements in any sense that a modern person would understand.
         
         They are certainly not chemical elements, they are nothing close to the fundamental building blocks of  matter and they do not get you to e=mc2.
         
         Nor even a usable refrigerator.

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            Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Einstein wrote the formula for e=mc2 and nothing more with it. Though, others studied it, got busy, and created some significant effects.

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   Doneta Wrateposted 5 years ago

   Tess said only atheists can honestly lead.  Hitler was an atheist, so were Stalin and Lenin.

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      Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Ouch!

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         TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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            Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            There still is Lenin and Stalin. Did you check to see if they were Christian? Did you check to see if all the Nazi's where Christians, too? Did you check to see if Napoleon is Christain? How about Pretty Boy Floyd or Dillenger?  How about J. Edgar Hoover?  Genghis Khan?

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      TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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         Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         How about Alexander the Great? Mao Zedong? Not all dishonest leaders are Christians.

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   Doneta Wrateposted 5 years ago

   I read an article on Hitler about his religious beliefs.  He played politics with what he said about religion.  Quotes can can found from him on both pro christian and proatheists.  He said whatever he thought would gain him an advantage at that time.  In reality he was a pantheist, is the closest he can be identified as.  He was a follower of Nietchie.  He greatly admired nature.  If he had a god, it was nature.  But he probably had no god.  I read up on both Stahlin and Lenin.  They were both atheists.

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      Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Doneta,
      I agree that Hilter would say whatever to get favoritism and destroy mankind.

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   Doneta Wrateposted 5 years ago

   Tess is a hurting woman.  Been through some mighty tough things.  I feel for her.

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   PaulGoodman67posted 5 years ago

   I was raised Church of England/Episcopal but started questioning it all pretty early, around the age of eight. By the time I was eighteen, I was an atheist. I don't really have any issues with religion generally, even though I am none believer. I don't do religion because I think the chances of life after death and God or gods existing are pretty remote, plus it all has the feel of something man-made.
   
   Living in the US, however, has made me realize that many people's experience of religion is less gentle than my own. Some of the US protestant groups are pretty extreme and kind of all-encompassing, especially in the old south and mid-west. There's also very much a "you're with us or against us" mentality.
   
   Will is right that most of the world is religious, it's very much a major part of being human for most people. I would also say that people tend to behave bad and good whether they identify as religious or not. But I do think individuals can suffer when the religion seeks to take over every aspect of their life - it's controlling and kind of creepy, but unfortunately not uncommon in the USA.

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      Will Apseposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      I reckon it is entirely legitimate to denounce authoritarianism and control-freakery in religion.  But when you start attacking human beings simply because they practice a religion it does not help.
      
      Also, I reckon Tess would benefit from seeing that what happened to her was a very particular experience and letting it drift into blaming and "us versus them" type formulations is a kind of defense. Which she may or may not need.

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         TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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            Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Wow, Tess,
            That is quite an ideology. I can see how you'd get a million views disagreeing and being caustic with others - twisting what they post and such.
            There is another Hubber, created a lot of views on the same ideology, though she hasn't posted on the forum for a while. She was caustic, too, if you didn't agree with her ideology.

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               TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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                  Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Tess,
                  New laptop!
                  What one experiences can influence their behavior and cause one to be caustic. Caustic doesn't stem from facts. It comes from experience or ideology of something.
                  Not all Christians are bad, just like not all Muslims or bad.

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    Kenna McHughposted 5 years ago

    A person can get caught up in all sorts of obsessions. I don't judge people for the choices they make. But, I hope they take responsibility for them. 
    
    I know there is a body, mind, and soul.
    
    I don't try to persuade people of what I know because what is true for you is true for you.
    
    I have studied religion and worked with religious leaders of all faiths.  They are great people and done tremendous help on many levels of society.

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       TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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          lobobrandonposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Society is what it is today because of religion. Religion whether true or bogus is what (in the past) united people towards a common cause. This unification of people is what resulted in larger societies that could work towards a single goal.
          
          Today due to the establishment of this society we have other common goals which are scientifically proven that we can work on together, but this is only possible because of the past. So to say religion did not play a role in building the world is not right.
          
          I would suggest reading Sapiens: A brief history of mankind. I don't totally agree with the author on everything and it does get a bit repetitive, but there are some good points that he makes.

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             Will Apseposted 5 years agoin reply to this

             Three views on religion from a philosophical/sociological perspective:
             
             Functionalists believe that religion offers emotional comfort, moderates existential angst and creates spaces for social interaction and integration.
             
             Critical theorists suggest it helps maintain patterns of social inequality.
             
             To interactionists, beliefs and experiences are not sacred unless individuals in a society regard them as sacred. So if you have a wonderful "spiritual" experience you could ascribe it to the numinous, excess serotonin or maybe that cider you drank.

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          Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Tess,
          I know what I know. That cannot be taken away or discounted by other peoples' ideology.

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    Kenna McHughposted 5 years ago

    I have not read Sapiens because I have a good grasp of the evolution theories. Will Durant and his wife (Ariel) wrote an 11 volume piece - The Story of Civilization. It's quite extensive but covers many aspects of our history. They were popular books for some time.

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       lobobrandonposted 5 years agoin reply to this

       Sapiens is not at all about evolution theory. It's a brief history which begins just before homo sapiens switch from hunter-gatherers to agriculture. The author talks about how society developed and the influence of different things. The book is still on bestseller charts.
       
       Haven't read any of those 11 pieces.

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          Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I looked briefly at a review, which described it as such. I just went to the author's website. Yes. I had it wrong. Thanks for the correction. Will Durant's books are older than Yuval Noah Harari. Scholars, researchers, students use Durant's books.

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             lobobrandonposted 5 years agoin reply to this

             Just looked him up.

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    Will Apseposted 5 years ago

    I reckon every form of hatred is pretty much equal.

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       Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

       And, it closes the door to opportunity and understanding.

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    Kenna McHughposted 5 years ago

    People come to their own conclusions. We can't force anyone how to believe, think, or know. To try and change what they think or believe or know is futile. In reverse, it is the same. We are responsible for our actions.
    Returning to the original post of this thread, which is a quote from Assage, is about truth.
    I follow a rule I learned from a great philosopher. "What is true for you is true for you."  I don't allow my truth to be alloyed.
    When someone points their finger at me and says, "I am like this,"  "I am like that," "I am meaning this...,"   or whatever. I will not agree with it, and I will correct it.

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       TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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          theraggededgeposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          And those two posts, Kenna's and this one are exactly what I was trying to convey in my own posts on this thread.
          
          "What is true for you, is true for you." And it's a different truth for everyone.

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             TessSchlesingerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

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                PaulGoodman67posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                I personally believe that it's better to believe an uncomfortable truth, than a comforting falsehood. Religion works and thrives because it provides people with a sense of purpose, a social/moral structure, and other emotional comforts such as the idea of receiving support from a divine source, life after death, etc. It's no real surprise that it's so well aligned with human anxieties and fears, because it is almost certainly man-made.
                
                Of course, freedom of thought and belief and tolerance are essential, but religion doesn't get any sort of pass from criticism. That said, I think much of the atheism nowadays is a turn off for me, as it's become a kind of "evangelical unbelief" for some (fans of Dawkins, Hitchens, etc). I personally don't really attempt to "convert" anyone to my beliefs. I think religion is so common, both historically and geographically for humans, it's unlikely that it will go away. And when people don't have religion, they don't behave any better morally, nor are they necessarily more rational.
                
                I also thing that there is wisdom that can be found in religion, deeper truths about human nature. It's human wisdom, not divine, but still wisdom. The problems tend to come with the fundamentalists and literalists who see rules, facts, certainty, rather than metaphor and allegory..

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                   Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                   Religion, when practiced in the truest sense of the word "study of wisdom," society survives better.
                   The scientists and philosophers in history proved that SOME religions frowned upon their members questioning their religion, priest, or learning outside their church.
                   Not just in churches but the schools are known for demoralizing individuals as well. Students learn by memorization without critical thinking or using what they learn in life.
                   Individuals' survival potential is regulated by acting on a purpose, knowledge, and a plan.
                   Understanding the human soul, learning for application in life, interpersonal relationships, helping others, and being true to your beliefs facilitates everyone's survival.

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                      PaulGoodman67posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                      I think the most important thing is toleration, between the different religions and religious factions, and indeed between the religious and non-religious. It's the increasing lack of toleration between groups that alarms me the most.

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                         Kenna McHughposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                         I agree. Tolerance is the solution. Who is causing the factions? Like the play Othello, someone is benefiting the distrust and intolerance.

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