Evolution: Fact or theory?

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   lovetherainposted 8 years ago

   Some people, like Richard Dawkins call evolution a "fact".
   
   What do you think? Is evolution a fact or a theory?

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      wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Read "Origin of Species" and then come back to debate the issue.

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         Paul Wingertposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         There is no debate. There's overwhelming scientific evidence that evolution happened and accepted as scientific fact. Lovethe brain doesn't know what a scientific theory is an by his post, obvious too mentally lazy to go out research it. To deny evolution on has to really work hard to deny biology, DNA, chemistry, etc. The of course there are still people out there that insist the earth is flat.

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      BuddiNsenseposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      What is the difference between fact and theory?

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      Popitposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Oh please!  Now you'll have all the paid up members of the flat earth society spewing forth.  There are examples of evolution that have happened in my life time - moths that change markings because of pollution.  True the evolution hypothesis is constantly reviewed as new evidence comes to light, that's what scientists and academics do, review, revise and open up for debate.  Mammoth bones were once thought to belong to giants, dinosaurs thought to be dragons etc.  But unless someone finds a flash drive in the center of an ancient rock, with the message "fooled you all you evolutionists are going to hell', creationism is still a metaphor.  A beautiful metaphor, which each culture, race and creed has sculpted in it's own image.

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         lovetherainposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         Do you mean the peppered moths they glued onto tree trunks? Great example.

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      colorfuloneposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Evolution is a fact. 
      How did evolution begin?

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         lovetherainposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         Sure, prove it.

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            wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Get yourself a bunch of fruit flies, irradiate them, and watch for several generations.  Proof given.
            
            Or ask any doctor why the flu vaccine has to change every years.  Or why penicillin is no longer effective for many diseases it used to be.  Proof given.
            
            Or talk to a dog breeder about where different breeds came from, and how to breed specific characteristics into a dog.  Proof given.

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               lovetherainposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               Fruitflies remain fruitflies. Dogs remain dogs. 40,000 generations of ecoli remain ecoli.
               
               Try again.

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                  wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  And all have changed.  The definition of evolution: species change into something they were not.  If you insist that a species change into a different species, consider that the term is a man-defined quality.  You can define a species to be anything you want.
                  
                  Proof given.

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                     lovetherainposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     Minor adaptation is not evolution. You fail again.

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                        wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                        Hmm.  You evidently need to study up your biology some.  I suggest reading "Origins of Species" - while it is rather old, it does have something to do with the topic.

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                           lovetherainposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                           Will On the Origin of Species explain to me the Modern Synthesis, or natural genetic engineering?
                           
                           Maybe you are the one who's out of date, if you think the Origin is relevant today.

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                              wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                              And maybe not.  I repeat; if you wish to discuss whether evolution happens or not you need to educate yourself on what the word means, and how and when it happens.  "Origin of Species" will make a great primer to start that education.

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                              Paul Wingertposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                              lovetherain - obviously you have access to the internet. Go find a credible website on evolution and read about it. You might just learn something and curb your impulse to ask stupid questions.

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                                 lovetherainposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                 Another no-brained Darwinian who can't take the time to actually figure out that Darwinian evolution has zero evidence to support it. You are another boring parrot.

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                                    Live to Learnposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                    I get where you are coming from. Evolution is a fact that doesn't answer a whole lot of questions. Birds, who are separated from any other bird in their species at birth, will still know where to fly for the winter grounds. Exactly where to fly. Our understanding is no where near explaining that. Praying mantis which change color to appear to be a flower, in order to attract prey. How? How did that process begin? And the fruit fly comment seems short sighted. From everything I've read it appears that mutations do not tend to create changes species wide. They are simply mutations which are not passed down through the generations. Natural selection within a species does cause some traits, which are advantageous to survival, to become more prevalent throughout the population but it does not change the species.
                                    
                                    We have a limited amount of information to go on, if you think about the time life has been on this planet. It's a good working theory and, for the most part, all of the data collected thus far supports it. But, I do chuckle at times. I can imagine a bunch of prehistoric birds sitting around grumbling about how cold it is. Some bird flies in and suggests a place south of there, they go, have a great winter and collectively agree to infuse the flying directions into their DNA so other generations can take advantage. The depth of complexity of life is mind boggling.

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                                       wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                       "From everything I've read it appears that mutations do not tend to create changes species wide."
                                       
                                       You are correct: a mutation changes exactly one individual. 
                                       
                                       "They are simply mutations which are not passed down through the generations."
                                       
                                       And yet they DO get passed down.  It's how reproduction works: change the DNA of an organism and that change may show up in subsequent generations.  Or it may not, all depending on if reproduction happens and if that particular change is passed down to the child or not.  Of course, if it is non-sexual reproduction it WILL be passed to all subsequent generations.
                                       
                                       " Natural selection within a species does cause some traits, which are advantageous to survival, to become more prevalent throughout the population but it does not change the species."
                                       
                                       And you answer your own comment that mutations don't get passed down by saying that they may become more prevalent throughout the species.  Simple arithmetic dictates that "more prevalent" can become "most prevalent" through natural selection, which would mean that the species has indeed changed.

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                                          Live to Learnposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                          No, they don't. Not by your example. Irradiating fruit flies has not, to my knowledge (and I admit I don't know everything) resulted in permanent changes in a specific test group that is passed down consistently from generation to generation. DNA does appear to have a mechanism within itself that corrects mutations; at times. I'd be open to reading a study where irradiation permanently changed a species.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          And, you didn't understand what I was saying with that. I'm sure that is my fault for being unclear. If a species of bird, which has varying beak lengths within the species, lives in an area where it is advantageous to survival to have a shorter beak then natural selection would ensure that particular trait was more prevalent. It doesn't negate the longer beak variety. It doesn't cause it to go extinct. The shorter beak just becomes more prevalent. It doesn't create a new species of bird or a new species of anything. It just makes more short beaked birds of that species in that area.

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                                             wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                             Then you have not looked far enough.  That a mutation us usually detrimental, and doesn't last more than a generation or three, does not mean that the advantageous ones will not become part of the species as a whole.
                                             
                                             Similar to the birds, I watched a nature show a while back on iguanas.  Seems there is an island where normal food is scarce and they have adapted to eating from the sea, by diving and scraping lichen and stuff from the rocks with hardened jaws.  Their mouths have adapted, their bodies have adapted to temperature extremes, even their gut has changed to accommodate a different diet.  An "normal" iguana from a nearby island will starve there and never reproduce, while this group of "modified" animals prospers.  At the same time, put one of these on the other island, and IT will starve: it can no longer eat the same food, let alone digest and make use of it.
                                             
                                             The question becomes are they now the same species?  Different diet, different bodies, unable to reproduce together - are they still the same species?  If they are still the same, what about when they develop more advanced flippers on the feet?  Still the same?  When do we define them as different?
                                             
                                             How do you define species?  From the ancestry, regardless of current attributes?  From the ability to reproduce together (what about a horse and donkey)?

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                                                Live to Learnposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                                Hard to say on the species question. But, a horse and a donkey don't reproduce anything that can then reproduce so I would say that is a smoking gun. As to the iguana you say one would starve and not reproduce. That doesn't mean it couldn't reproduce. If it found an indigenous iguana which chose to mate with it, would that result in babies? If so would those babies, if they survived to adulthood, be able to do it also? That would answer that question.
                                                
                                                And, yes it would make sense that desirable mutations would have a better chance to remain in the mix than undesirable ones. But, I'd need to see a study that showed irradiated flies which resulted in desirable mutations stayed permanently in the population throughout generations.
                                                
                                                Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing the grander scheme but throwing out examples that don't answer the questions people have only muddies the waters.

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                                                   Castlepalomaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                                   It's amazing how I can mutate or evolve my plants at will like a God in months. Let alone animals and plants through millions of years.

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                                                      Live to Learnposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                                      

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                                       Paul Wingertposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                       lovetherain is like playing chess with a pigeon - he shits on the board and struts around thinking he won. He's tackling a subject that he knows nothing about and can't comprehend.  I found a link that's more of his aptitude - www.disney.com

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                                       Paul Wingertposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                       Don't waste your time debating with lovetherain. It's like playing chess with a pigeon - he craps on the board and then struts around like he won. Evolution is not that hard, even elementary kids get it (at least most do and maybe they'll have better luck explaining it to him since he's clueless on the subject). I found a link that he might comprehend - www.disney.com

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                                          Live to Learnposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                          Yes. Well I suppose insulting each other works for you guys. Unfortunately we aren't all elementary school students. Or maybe that is fortunate. I suppose it depends on how you view it.

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      tsmogposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      In my view everything is theory until substantiated by fact through proof with evidence. Usually at sometime a decision is made or acceptance occurs as belief with its developed system(s). There is inference suggesting contrast with views with the OP. The three most discussed within academics and possibly at question are:
      
      The Creation View
      The Theistic Evolution View
      Scientific View
      
      Further inference suggests those likened analogously with belief and belief systems:
      
      Deity(s)
      Agnostic
      Atheist
      
      However, as with any belief and belief systems there is choice. That said, I am wishy - washy with it by nature being a skeptic questioning each. Alas, one may say beware the fate of Socrates.

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   Castlepalomaposted 8 years ago

   Evolution is a fact and a theory in a coherent matter.

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   paradigmsearchposted 8 years ago

   Ya know..., I used to consider evolution a fact. But recently I have found it difficult to believe apes started giving birth to humans.
   
   These days I consider both evolution and creationism as theories, both of which still need a lot of work. And both of which might be correct; we just haven't figured out how they intersect yet.

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      Castlepalomaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Creatism films are well documented by the Flintstones. I intend to get closer to the facts of evolution through professial scientist.

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   paradigmsearchposted 8 years ago

   Here's a theory...
   
   When the universe was created, so was intelligence; probably in the form of energy constructs. These energy constructs have been busily creating physical constructs for their amusement ever since.

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      Castlepalomaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      God amusement or energy creates energy amusement?
      Huge amount of imagination and knownledge gose down better with the pleasure of entertainment.
      
      Being a former animators. Flintstones for me was more painful than a long term pleasure.

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