Ignorance is not an Excuse
Some one just accused me of making a personal attack on them because I said they are ignorant of certain facts. Any one who has interacted with me here will know I try not to make personal attacks, other than to make fun of people, and these threads are littered with snipped personal attacks on me
So, I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread which will hopefully help those who are ignorant of the theories of Darwin and evolution. By no means am I a scientist, but I will do my best to help those who see these theories as a "personal attack," on their belief system to understand them more fully.
I will not attempt to explain the theory of the big bang, because, as I have said before, I do not fully understand the scientific basis for this theory. If some one could introduce me to a Quark, I might change that stance
But I do not think the fact that evolution has no answer for "how it all began," is a valid reason for dismissing it out of hand.
I also do not believe that evolution in any way proves the bible is wrong. It proves it is not to be taken literally, but that is it. It certainly had no bearing on my personal conclusion that there is not a personal god.
I will be using other people's words also. And I am sure this will be a fertile breeding ground for Jenny's anti-evolution hall of fame
The first thing one needs to understand is that these are theories, and as such are scientific knowledge, i.e. that which has been postulated, tested and not yet falsified'
Darwin's theory
"On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life,"
This is the basis of Darwin's theory:
1. Species have great fertility. They have more offspring than can grow to adulthood.
2. Populations remain roughly the same size, with small changes.
3. Food resources are limited, but are relatively stable over time.
4. An implicit struggle for survival ensues.
5. In sexually reproducing species, generally no two individuals are identical.
6. Some of these variations directly impact the ability of an individual to survive in a given environment.
7. Much of this variation is inheritable.
8. Individuals less suited to the environment are less likely to survive and less likely to reproduce, while individuals more suited to the environment are more likely to survive and more likely to reproduce.
9. The individuals that survive are most likely to leave their inheritable traits to future generations.
10. This slowly effected process results in populations that adapt to the environment over time, and ultimately, after interminable generations, these variations accumulate to form new varieties, and ultimately, new species.
More information on Darwin, his theory and the adverse reaction it caused are here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Species
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin
As you can see from the following image, many "personal attacks," were made on Darwin after the publication of his book.
It is fair to say that Darwin's theory is the starting poiint for our understanding of the evolutionary process.
The next piece of the puzzle, before reaching evolution,
Genetic Drift
Genetic or "allelic" drift is a completely separate process from natural selection, but helps in our understanding of evolution.
Genetic drift is the evolutionary process of change in the allele frequencies (or gene frequencies) of a population from one generation to the next due to the phenomena of probability in which purely chance events determine which alleles (variants of a gene) within a reproductive population will be carried forward while others disappear. Especially in the case of small populations, the statistical effect of sampling error during random sampling of certain alleles from the overall population may result in an allele, and the biological traits that it confers, to become more common or rare over successive generations, and result in evolutionary change over time. The concept was first introduced by Sewall Wright in the 1920s, and is now held to be one of the primary mechanisms of biological evolution. It is distinct from natural selection, a non-random evolutionary selection process in which the tendency of alleles to become more or less widespread in a population over time is due to the alleles' effects on adaptive and reproductive success.\
This is an attempt to show the process graphically, and there is more information and images here
Which leads us to:
Evolutionary biology
Less we become confused and include other definitions of evolution, I will henceforth use the word "evolution," as it applies in biology, which is defined as:
1. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
2. The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.
Or as wikipedia describes it:
"In biology, evolution is the process of change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. The genes that are passed on to an organism's offspring produce the inherited traits that are the basis of evolution. Mutations in genes can produce new or altered traits in individuals, resulting in the appearance of heritable differences between organisms, but new traits also come from the transfer of genes between populations, as in migration, or between species, in horizontal gene transfer. In species that reproduce sexually, new combinations of genes are produced by genetic recombination, which can increase the variation in traits between organisms. Evolution occurs when these heritable differences become more common or rare in a population."
Or in more simple terms:
"Evolution is the process of change in all forms of life over generations, and evolutionary biology is the study of how and why evolution occurs. An organism inherits features (called traits) from its parents through genes. Changes (called mutations) in these genes can produce a new trait in the offspring of an organism. If a new trait makes these offspring better suited to their environment, they will be more successful at surviving and reproducing. This process is called natural selection, and it causes useful traits to become more common. Over many generations, a population can acquire so many new traits that it becomes a new species."
Much like the fact that one line of the bible does not exist in a vacuum and is interrelated with all the other lines in the bible, evolutionary biology does not exist in a vacuum. There are numerous other theories and evidences that combine with, and interact with it to give us a greater understanding of the way the world works.
A few examples would be:
Fossil records
Carbon dating
Sequenced Genomes
All these links are to recognized academic bodies, and I have tried to find the mopst understandable information I can.
For a fuller explanation of the theory, and if you are interested in educating your children at home about the process, I understand this is an excellent book.
Ongoing testing of the theories
These theories are being tested, have been tested, and will continue to be tested. This is what scientists do. One such test here
More testing is here:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v2 … 197a0.html
http://www.geocities.com/lclane2/yeastspeciation.html
And for an explanation of why the fact that evolution is "just a theory," does not mean it is invalid or should be dismissed. Go here - Evolution is just a theory
"The important thing to keep in mind is that the everyday definition of the word "theory" is different from its scientific definition. In common usage, theory often means something like "guess" or "hunch". However, in scientific circles, this is not the case. To scientists, a theory is an explanation of some feature of the world that meets three requirements: it is supported by evidence, is testable and falsifiable, and can be used to make predictions."
And no, I have not added any links to all the pseudo-scientific sites that have sprung up. My personal feelings on people offering that sort of information is that I am torn between feeling sorry for them and ..........
Conclusion
For my own part, I do not see the theory of evolution as in any way "proving," the bible wrong. It played no part in my conclusion that there is no such thing as a god.
Yes, it is a theory. And to some one such as myself, it is a theory that actually makes sense.
This is one of my personal litmus tests. "Does it make sense?"
I accept that if one takes the bible as a literal TRUTH, then of course it will not make any sense. If you already have all the "facts," you need by reading your bible, then I have wasted my breath.
But if you are interested in learning about the facts and tests and observations that have caused scientists to postulate these theories, knock yourself out. Glad to be of assistance.
Let the games beginHey one of the Chimps has boobies
What are you trying to say... 
That men and women are both descended from apes. Not just men?Even that would make more sense than "The invisible fairy gone done it!"
Bumping this one up for the same scripturebots
Good oh.
I understand just fine thanks. It is garbage. We already know the Hebrew enslavement was a lie with no basis in reality and there is no such thing as a god. This is nothing at all to do with "history" - if you were a genuine history buff - you would understand this.
I never did that.
Glad to hear. Odd you have questions - I thought I had covered it pretty well.
Great hub Mark!
This is a topic which I´ll follow attentively and I´m sure I´ll LOL with some of the following posts.lol
I hope you are not suggesting that Mr. Daniken's theories are of equal weight ?
I don't blame you for staying out of religious debates. That is a matter between you and your god. Unless you think everyone else should believe the same things that you do
And as for making a forum post rather than a hub, I would think I would miss my target audience if I had done so.
Jenny - Gotta love Stargate.
My pleasure Eng.M
Although I have to say, evolution has never been taught as anything other than a scientific theory.
And my atheism has nothing to do with it. The one does not preclude or prove the other
I have always attempted to see past your lack of English, and I hope you receive the help you ask for.
Mike -
I think it is a stretch to say that the big bang hypothesis or the black holes hypothesis were "spawned," by Darwin's theory. But - if you have some evidence of that, I am open to listening to what you have to say.
Personally, I do not see any connection, and I am fairly certain Darwin has no idea of either of these when he first postulated his theory.
And I am still not understanding how you are somehow saying that lack of proof for black holes some how discredits evolutionary biology. But I am all ears.
I also think you are twisting his theory to suit yourself. "Survival of the fittest," was a purely biological term, and I think it is fair to say that races have considered themselves "superior" to other races since the beginning of time. Certainly the bible makes reference to the"Chosen" people.
Once again, I would like to see some evidence of this, so feel free to leave a link to these "scholars," that make this contention.
Well, I don't know anything about that either. I know The German Nazi party promoted "Christian nationalism," and "positive christianity." But I was not aware that they reached these ideals because of Darwin's theories. Once again, please leave a link or two.
Please re-read what I said in the first place. I made it clear that Darwin's theory is but the beginning and there are other theories involved.
Although, one more time, please leave me a link to some scholarly statements regarding the "problems," that have arisen from this.
Pax dude.Thanks for returning the peace Mark. And I like being called dude too, dude.
Robert W. Sussman on this site argues that natural selection is not genetically driven to compete for survival or is inherently selfish as opposed to the prevailing view in popular and scientific literature. This site makes some good points but then says this below.
Quote from http://news-info.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/902.html
"Charles Darwin himself believed that morality plays a role in human evolution by natural selection. A high standard of morality may give the individual and his children no advantage over other group members, Darwin wrote, yet it works to give his tribe an advantage over other tribes."
So it is the prevailing view in popular and scientific literature and Charles Darwin believed it himself.
Do a Google search for 'Nazism and Survival of the fittest' and you will come up with 152,000 sites. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&c … &meta=
Do a Google search for 'Zionism and Survival of the fittest' and you will come up with 35,800 sites. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&c … &meta=
Just go to a couple of the 152,000 links already above.
Mark I have never heard that the The German Nazi party promoted "Christian nationalism," and "positive christianity" other than where you have mentioned it in this forum. Maybe you could supply some web sites that prove your point?
The Nazi Party was officially called the National Socialist German Workers' Party. I scanned this site quickly but did not see any reference to "Christian nationalism," or "positive christianity". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party
To the contrary, at the Nuremberg trials some nazi war criminals spoke of Oden, their god of war and Valhalla, their weird heaven where they go after death to continually fight wars.
Here's a couple of sites that I found that talk about Christian Nationalism but neither mention the German Nazi party. PT might know about these ones.
http://atheism.about.com/b/2003/12/28/c … w-bush.htm
http://www.speroforum.com/wiki/default. … alism.html
Mark are you just coning me into doing your research for more Hubs?
I am going to take a break for a couple of days. I'm spending too much time in here. See you in a few days.
Peace out
Mike
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
0I don't see how survival of the fittest is not logical. It is more likely that a person (male or female, black, white or asian etc.) who is better built to be a strong swimmer via: genetic build...slender, strong shoulder, longer torso etc...has a better shot at survival than, a person whose genetic disposition is short, fat and slow etc. In the event that the world changed and people needed to rely on swimming as their basic trasportation instead of walking the ones who are, in this case physically better equiped to swim would survive. (you get the point)
This is not to say that all tall, slender, strong shoulder, long torsoed men will survive if in the event there was a flood (just as an example) if that person does not know how to swim, similarly the short, fat and slow one may be better suited to survive if he had first learned to swim.
However given they can both swim it is more likey the one built to swim would survive. Now, say another million years goes by and those who survived by swimming are also changing to suit their enviornment. Maybe they some how grow gills. They are still human however they have adapoted to thier surrounding.
( as a stupid joke you could call them...apehumish LOL)
Also to note. It use to be thought that the human genetic make up or our DNA strand consisted of over 100 thousand genes, now we know that it is only around 317, which means that each gene is capable of preforming more than one action.
In theory, each gene can change according to itself. How this is done, I don't know, but it is in some way a mutation and mutation doesn't necessarily mean bad. Although it can become bad, but if things work out right, this makes way for a better breed of humans or it can lead to the total destruction of humans.
(this is in no way a racist arguement.)
Also, when it comes to surviving, some people and certain "races" or ethnicities are either predisposed to or immune to certain diseases. Such as sickle cell anemia, AIDS, Breast Cancer, Skin Cancer, heart disease, stroke...just to name a few.
These genes are inherited. For instance, an African America male who carries the sickle cell trait who mates with an Asian Indian women who is predisposed to muscular degeneration...thier offspring may if female may be destined for health problems and die young or if male, they may never have any significant health problems and could be immune to certain illnesses like maylaria.
Now these are just examples. I am not a scientist or a doctor, but you should be able to get the point. I say yes.
That's what I have been trying to say all along, that Darwin's evolutionism is a faith system. So according to the American 1st amendment, if Christianity can not be taught to children in schools then neither should Darwin's evolutionism. And when "Survival of the fittest" is brought into the picture it is actually detrimental to children.
Mark here's one that you may want to nominate for Jenny's thread.
------------------------------------------------------------
What did a platypus evolve from?
Did a platypus evolve from a duck and a beaver?
If so then how did it end up in Australia?
And why is there no beavers in Australia and no platypus' in North America?- Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years ago0
Well, I have to say I am extremely disappointed in the quality of entries for Jenny's thread so far, but as the OP drops off the page I am sure they will begin to improve
Mike -
I am once again unsure of the point you are trying to make. Although that first link you left is an interesting one. Mainly because this is absolutely not a new idea, and, if you think about how many people have died in battle fighting for their god, you will start to see how religion has been taking advantage of this for many years. Politics also - I recommend George Orwell's "1984" as a good book on the subject.
Just look at the people here on these forums preaching nationalism, "oil independence," "prophecies coming true," and "America under threat," to see this predilection in action. "Survival of the fittest," is an apt description in this case. How many popes or presidents have died in battle? No, they are the fit ones, persuading others to do it for them. If you want to talk about "Social Darwinism," this is the process in action.
But you are getting away from the original purpose of this thread with these divergences. If you follow the links I left, hopefully, you will gain a greater understanding of what evolution and Darwin's theories actually are.
And your argument that evolution is a faith and therefore should not be taught in schools just tells me you didn't bother reading anything I put here in the first place. Ignorance is not an Excuse, any more.
Looks like Jenny took care of your worries over the origins of the Platypus
Eng.M -
I think it may be that your English is getting in the way. I hate to tell you this, but there are a number of internet sites that will lie about science in an effort to persuade people that their religion is correct. I know, I know, that goes against all the "values," that these religions hold dear, but this is in fact, the case. That "scientific," evidence you cut and pasted is just lies.
You can trust the links I left in the OP as being genuine science, I know they are a little more difficult to understand, but bear with them.Ignorance is not an Excuse, if you do.
As to this point you made:
I don't understand what you are asking in the first question. I think you did not read my OP fully judging by the statement you then made.
Although there is a grain of truth in the blue question, but not in the way you think.
As I understand it, Darwin became dis-satisfied with the psychological sugar pill that believing in creationism is and decided to seek a more full understanding of how we came about. So, in a very real sense, christianity spawned his theories. He just said to himself, "This doesn't make any sense to me," and began looking. And the theory of evolution was born.
A good argument to ask yourself the same questions? Who knows? Only you. If you are satisfied you have all the answers you need, then don't bother reading anything I put or follow any of the links.
Sandra - good point.
Jenny and Zarm - Still hoping for some stuff worthy of nomination.
Well, if the cap fits....
But this is really besides the point.
We are trying to discuss the theory of evolution.
Marxism is a political system, not a biological scientific theory.
But, I understand - you feel your belief system is threatened so you feel the need to defend it by attacking a scientific theory.
And as far as your other comment to Jenny - Come on. you can do better than that. By your criteria, we should not teach a valid scientific theory in case it incites children to defend their tribes. Using the same logic we cannot teach christian creationism, or Islamic for that matter.
Just exactly what are we going to teach our children?
Eng. M -
Willful ignorance is not an excuse either
Let me see if I can educate you a little further then. Just this first "proof" will do for a start:
"According to the Shamanistic Religion of Darwinism: the first living organism formed spontaneously."
"According to modern science, life cannot come into being by chance"
"Shamanistic" definition:
The animistic religion of certain peoples of northern Asia in which mediation between the visible and spirit worlds is effected by shamans.
Clearly, this does not apply to Darwin's theory.
"Religion" definition:
Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
As you can see, none of these apply to Darwin, nor myself.
"Spontaneously" definition:
Of one's own free will: freely, voluntarily, willfully, willingly. Idioms: of one's own accord, on one's own volition.
No mention of the word "chance."
"Chance" definition:
An accidental or unpredictable event
The person who wrote those words is not "trying to summarize evolution for ordinary people who are so busy to read a lot of evolutionary assumtions." He is a liar and a charlatan preying on ignorant people.
And I would tell him that to his face if I ever met him.
I wish you a renewed appreciation for the wonders of evolution and the educational opportunities that Allah has provided for you.thanks for your funny education MARK.
I hope your chance will help you in your life.
see you in a monthMohammed - It was my understanding that you were interested in improving your English. If you think it is funny because the words do not mean what you want them to mean, I shall not bother in future.
I guess it doesn't really matter what the words mean if it is what you want to hear.
Hundreds of thousands of scientists around the world combine to create a testable scientific theory, which has so far held up to some very rigorous testing.
And one charlatan says, "that is wrong, what scientists are really saying is it was all chance. Don't worry about the evidence or facts, or the tests, I know better than they do what they really mean, and they are all lying."
Enjoy your communing with allah.
I must admit, I have very little knowledge of Ramadan, other than from when I was living in London. The ready availability of good quality prostitutes and whiskey makes London a popular spot for many well-to-do muslim men to celebrate the holiday away from the pressures of their belief system.
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
Like The Boxer, Simon and Garfunkle.
-all lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and he disregards the rest, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, la, lie, lie,lie.-
LOL
Not a comment to anyone specific, just something in general that all men seem to display no matter how factual or imfactual??? we are.
I think your arguement is flawed by saying God did not intend for evolution.
earnesthub -
Whilst I might agree with some of your sentiments, this is not a hub, it is a discussion forumPlease do. We need more communist, left-wing, freedom-hating, satanist, Darwinist, child molesters in this discussion
Hello Sandra,
long before Darwin - the Bible said this:
Genesis 1:12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
There are several things here. Notice the EARTH BROUGHT FORTH vegetation. That says life came from the earth. (The dirt)
Later - it says life came from the waters.
20 And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures,
24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds:
So LIFE came from the waters and the dirt. Spontaneously.
If life is in the elements - it ALL brought forth life. A symphony of life that has it's origin in the elements.
In the above verse - each thing comes forth AFTER ITS OWN KIND. It does not transform into ANOTHER kind - as the arguments above and Darwin suggest.
The earth and the water are capable of bringing forth an endless variety and supply of LIFE - each after its own kind.
These are from Chapter 1
***
In chapter 2 there is a summary
2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
BUT notice here - the Bible says these are the "generations" (plural). If the earth had been created in 7 literal days - the word would not be generations - showing many multiple periods of time - but instead would have said something like - this was the first generation.
Also notice that in using the word GENERATIONS it then follows the words - "the heavens and the earth when they were created."
In other words - it says - the Heavens and the earth were created in GENERATIONS. And next it sums up this GENERATIONS statement as if it were one day.This way:
"In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens"
All of these imply periods of time - not a literal day. Later we are told that each of the 7 days (or periods of time) were not typical days. A typical day begins at midnight or in older cultures - when the sun rises. But in the Genesis account we are told that THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE FIRST DAY - etc.
13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
And that's a truly odd way of expressing it. Without going into detail - Jewish Kabbalists understood these phrases to mean "out of chaos into order" - over 500 years ago. In the evening - there is no light but as the light of the day dawns - we are able to see clearer and clearer until there is full light and total order is now able to be seen. It is a TRANSITIONAL CLAUSE that implies time for this to happen.
Out of chaos into order.
These Kabbalists then speculated that the earth must be inordinately old and that creation must have taken a very long period of time - eons. They didn't know how much time - but they realized from reasoning the original Hebrew meanings of words - that that was what the text implied. It wasn't literal days as we read it in English.
Of course, there was no evolution/Atheist debates in those days - so at the least it is an interesting history remote from our time - knowing that others deduced this from the Hebrew Genesis.
I do not believe the tenets of Kabbalah or their mystical Beliefs. But the view of the Genesis account stands on its own merits and points - since it says what it says and that's all it says.
*****
Finally notice this part:
"""5 when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up--for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth """
This flies in the face of what many anti-theists state for what they think the Bible says. In truth - many of them have never read the Bible - and surely many have not studied it - even as a text book.
no herb of the field had yet sprung up
God had not caused it to rain upon the earth
So here we see that God did not CREATE by just speaking and BAM it was there - like most people envision when they picture in their minds what it must have been like. Why did God not just have the plants appear in full bloom with seed pods as they eventually became? Why were all the seeds in the earth WAITING for the mist? How long did they wait? Generations? How many seeds can the earth produce. How much life can the waters make?
According to the Evolutionists - a lot.
According to the Bible - a lot.
From these few verses we can see there are plenty of elements to suggest something happened in those days that is unlike typical creation views.
So which form of evolution is right? Who knows - or how. It's an ongoing debate. The Bible says the "life" of the seeds was in the ground caused by mixing with water. But in the water when life came forth - it required no other additive. Perhaps life is essentially based in the water and there's something fundamentally central to it which we haven't discovered yet.
Evolutionists say gook made one seed eventually (Ambiogenesis) and then it "evolved" into others and then into a multiplicity and then it covered the earth and then we have them dying and morphing and dying and morphing some more. (requiring many undiscovered missing links) Each not coming from it's own kind - but from multiplied variations of others' kinds.
There's some proof for some of that - except the gook stuff, and the morphing stuff and the evolving stuff - and the missing links.
****
All I know for sure is this, Alcohol and Calculus don't mix. Never drink and derive.- That's a good one.
As usual, PT, you are trying to distract from the purpose of this thread which is to try and help the ignorant understand the process of evolution.
Merely spouting great reams of text taken from the bible and confusing the issue will not help that cause. If you simply dismiss out-of-hand all the evidence and proof for an on-going evolutionary process you are doing both yourself and others a dis-service.
But, if I can boil down your argument against the theory of evolution it seems to be this:
1. Although you accept that species do adapt, change and evolve, because the one test you have chosen to discuss does not show a species turning into an entirely new species, this test is invalid and this proves to you that evolution does not happen.
2. Despite the massive amounts of evidence for transitional species, you prefer to believe that this is all lies.
3. Despite the fact that I made several clear statements at the beginning of this thread:
You then prefer to believe that because evolution does not claim to understand or explain the very first sign of life, this is proof that it doesn't happen.
The word is "Abiogenesis," by the way.
I am not sure how you can distill your clearly limited understanding of evolution into this statement.
Feel free to follow some of the links I placed in the first post. Perhaps you will the discover that evolutionists do not say, "Gook made one seed eventually."
I realize that you see the theory of evolution as a "personal attack," on your belief system, but resorting to these low tactics of twisting the facts and what evolution theory actually states should be beneath any christian.
What a shame it is not.
I agree with you on the alcohol and calculus though.....You're unbelievable Mark. I just laid out evolution as a possibility in the Bible - and you suggest I think evolution is an attack against my Christianity.
Concerning Gook - if you can't see spoof when you read it - it's no wonder you can't see a Christian supporting evolution.
That's why I don't debate you. You half read, you half debate and you half care.
I liked the monkey with the Breasts though. You probably half think we Christians print that out and keep it in secret places.
There isn't massive evidence for Transitional Species. There's massive words that suggest massive evidence.
You constantly deride the 7 day earth creation story - but when someone shows you words in context 3500 years old showing otherwise - you obfuscate what is clearly shown you as this.
"""Merely spouting great reams of text taken from the bible""
As opposed to great reams of disputed Transitional Species material.
Whatever - not to worry - Obama will make it all work out.Ok one point at a time -
What has Obama got to do with this discussion?
I did not spout great reams of Transitional Species material - I left a link.
And the only people disputing it are creationists.
As for the breast - women have them, which is one of the few things I know about women.
But if you think evolution does happen and god did it, why don't you just come out and say so instead of saying this:
As I have said before, all any one has to do is to say:
"Well of course there is an evolutionary process - that is the way god created the world."
And then we can start arguing over whether it happened spontaneously or there was a divine hand involved.
So go ahead and say it without all the attacks on "evolutionists," and "gook stuff," and the "morphing stuff."
Can you say it without all that "stuff." ?
I don't know how many times I have to say that evolution in no way proves the bible wrong.
Unless you take it literally.Do you even know who the redactor was or why he came about smarty pants?
Quote from Torah redactor
It's interesting to note how Constantine 1 in 325 AD also "wishing to promote ... national unity" like the Persian emperor did in Ezra's time called for the First Council of Nicaea. Constantine 1 called for the council before he became a Christian because his mother Helen was a Christian. The council rightfully decided in favor of Athanasius obvious Trinity over the Arius heresy of Arianism.
Another interesting comparison is that both the Persian emperor and Constantine 1 stopped the persecution of God's Church.
Both comparisons prove to me that God's Holy Spirit has been with His people all along.
Sunforged what you say doesn't have any effect on Christianity today. None at all.
Mike
Mark,
Ok - one point at a time.
There are numerous scientists that dispute Transitional Species. Many Atheists and Pantheists. Some emphatically - some privately because they can not bear the ridicule of their peers. (priests?)
You did post a link - with only links to voluminous links and proofs. Kinda like a Bible. What's the difference - post a link or post the 50 links on the links page. Voluminous. That's not even a single argument there. There's 50 separate arguments which I have read in the past. Would I post a link to the Bible - and 66 links to the books of the Bible and say see - there's my argument?
I might. But I can imagine your follow up post to that. I'm not saying you shouldn't have done it - I'm saying it pales in comparison to the 5 verses I used. (I know the proofs are different but you see the point)
The reason I haven't stated I "Believe" God created with Evolution - is because I am still studying it. It's been 7 years but it's a new field. I do not have the luxury of standing on the backs of 100,000's of scientists and philosophers who have works that can be researched and copied and pasted like you do. You don't have to read Hebrew and know history and a whole host of other requirements in order to debate both Atheists and Christians who are less prepared to debate this particular subject and demand unimaginable proofs - none of which they are willing to consider.
The Atheist/Non Theists generally have no idea what the Bible actually says and use effusively cut and paste opinions. The Christians on the other hand generally have no idea the state of the art in Evolutionary theory. So for a Christian who might believe he sees Evolution in the Bible and wants to debate it the bar is a lot higher than just saying Richard Dawkins says, blah blah blah. (or similar blah, blah, blahs posted on Talk Origins - interesting as they are) Or debating the Christian who thinks your soul is going to hell because you do not believe a literal 24hrs - even though you are a literalist.
I know you want to have Christians say God did the deal in evolution but the only group you can intelligently discuss this with is the old earth group. I am definitely old earth. Gerald Schroeder, Antony Flew, Hugh Ross (Astronomer) and many others hold to this view. In it's modern sense it is about 30 years old and has been gaining recognition among Christian Scientists - and by extension - lay people. Many Atheists are coming to this view in PART because their former worldview has problems. What they think are insurmountable problems.
To me - the discussion among Old Earth Christians appears to boil down to this. The Big Bang is correct - there must be an explanation - that explanation can not be more Big Bangs or more universes because that requires the same answers. The Universe is old, the earth is old and was made for man.
That's the foundation.
Man is either old or he is not. if he is - then man was a process until Adam when God breathed the Breathe of Life into Him. Man did not become a living animal when God did this - he already was living. He became something else - he became a living soul instead of a living animal. That event separates the living soul man from the animals and hominids and it divides history into two groups. Pre-Adamic and Post-Adamic.
Shroeder's interpretation is that God took one of the Man Like animals - and Imparted a Spirit into him - (breathed the breathe of life) thus making him Adam. The Bible does not say he became ALIVE - it says he became a LIVING SOUL. Adam literally means "man of the red earth" - but Soul means a spirit.
So this verse:
7 ”And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
Means this:
7 ”And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, (he made the body just like the other animals) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (He put a spirit inside the body) and man became a living soul.” (body+spirit = living soul)
We usually visualize this as man lying on the ground with God bent on his knee leaning over Adam's dead body with His mouth on his nose. But Adam could have been alive - and walking upright when this happened. He may not even have known. It's still literal and the only thing which changes is our tradition.
Mark, you will always keep yourself in a state of fits trying to prove evolution to young earth 24 hr days - Creationists. I know you love the agony and the ecstasy. But Christians believing it doesn't make them idiots - they just haven't been convinced yet. And truthfully - Darwinian evolutionary argument needs a lot of refinement and a whole lot more humility - we're still at the earliest stages of understanding.
Concerning your statement that evolution does not prove the Bible wrong but only that it cannot be taken literally - I am not confident of this. That's another reason I won't decide yet on what I believe in the literalism area. It is obvious to me - there is a remarkable semblance of literalism in the VERY FEW verses I posted previously. Those things and others make me withhold judgment.
When you ask can we debate this stuff without attacks etc. The answer is no. It is impossible for you to do so. You have a great disdain for Christians AND their arguments - and your every post reeks it. And it doesn't help when 4 or 5 others who can not contain themselves jump in as well. It is withering to stand up to it all and just try to say what one wants to say.
I have a great disdain for Atheist/Non Theist opinions expressed with rancor towards Christianity and Christians. I don't care they hold them - only how they generally express them. But you'd be hard pressed to find a post where I am using the more masculine adjectives. You'll find several posts where I have reached out for civility. Many seem to demand for Christians what they will not do themselves.
But I will admit to this sin - I have given sarcasm for sarcasm. I have a weakness for it, I am able to like it a lot.
*****************
Concerning beginnings of life and how organisms, animals and man etc arose out of the elements either by God or without god - that is a debate I don't think I want to have. I do not have enough evidence for my opinions and you are too dogmatic about yours. Some believe it was intelligently designed over eons but no one knows how life itself began. No proof exists that survival of the fittest is a valid theory nor even natural selection. The most that can be said is that some kind of past life was here and we think this is the best explanation. But we are very far from proving any of it.
That is what I think should be taught in schools - and I believe the name of the God/force etc should be left out - until the philosophical debate advances to the point where one can say - OK, there is a God - now we need to decide if that God has revealed Himself in time or in History? (That's the point Antony Flew has come to - and I have come to that point too for curriculum - even though think I know who has revealed Himself - I don't think it needs to be taught.)
Concerning breasts - I could tell from your website they are a special subject for you.
Not much debate there. And I'm sorry I cannot advance the forum topic - only show the topic is in great question. I haven't done that - but we can talk.Sounds like a good idea to me.
Who exactly?
The only "scientists" I see disputing the evidence are creationists. And let's be clear on the meaning here. We are a transitional species. Please leave a link to these "atheists," who dispute the evidence. Pantheist is a term that means nothing in this discussion. Pantheism is an attempt to appease the religious people by saying, "Well, if you want to call the universe god, OK, I can say god." Whether some of these atheists choose to do so in private, I cannot answer, and I doubt you can either.
But if you want to twist the term "peers" to mean "priests" - if it makes you feel better, go right ahead.
Yes, posting a link rather than cluttering up this thread with quoted text seems easier. But if you like, I can quote the entire text next time.
I do see the point, but do you see mine?
You make several points in this statement, and I will try to deal with them individually.
We both have the luxury of standing on the backs of 100,000's of scientists and philosophers who have works that can be cut and pasted. Along with numerous translations of the bible that can also be cut and pasted.
But the main difference here is that it is a scientific theory that does not require a knowledge of ancient Hebrew to understand.
You do need a basic understanding of biology though. Which, in its own way needs just as much study to fully understand it.
Personally, I have spent more time studying the bible and its various translations than I have the scientific basis for Darwin's theory.
But I applied my own personal litmus test to both and the bible was found wanting.
"Does it make sense."?
I can claim a certain knowledge of the bible because of the education system I went through. I agree that christians need to be educated in evolution, which is what I am hoping to achieve with this discussion.
My personal interpretation of the bible has led me to believe that there are no christians on the planet. But that is a different argument.
I don't want any such thing. As you know, I have had many discussion with the young earth group and Jenny's thread is littered with their opinions. I do find it hard to believe that educated people would argue against the idea of evolution on a scientific basis when there is so much evidence for it.
Many atheists are coming to what view?
I have never heard this either. "Made for man" ? What has that to do with anything? As for the big bang, I have said before that I do not grasp the underlying physics behind that theory and cannot say one way or another. I will say that I do not think it has anything to do with evolution. Abiogenesis is a different argument, and I think both groups are staring from a faulty beginning. i.e.e that there was a beginning in the first place. My little brain will not allow me to conceptualize what came before.
This would appear to be the Catholic version of events. That evolution was an ongoing process, but the soul was introduced at some point along the way. Which rather means god stepped in part way through the process, and discounts Abiogenesis. (Creation)
This makes the obvious assumption, outside of all the discussions - i.e. that there is a creator in the first place. Why do we need that assumption?
Although, this also leads me to my personal interpretation of the bible.i.e. That if god made us all from the same building blocks, the dust of the ground, doesn't it make sense that we are all related? Genetically.......
I know - Of course it doesn't make them idiots, merely ignorant. This is what I started this thread for.
I wish you well in your continuing education.
Of course I have disdain for any one who starts from the premise that I am damned to an eternity in hell and if I just opened my eyes to the beauty of the LORD, I would understand. Although, if you look through all the threads, you will find mostly attacks against me snipped out. I prefer gentle sarcasm rather than a direct assault.
Why? People claiming to be christians have caused an awful lot of damage. I personally have been subject to this. Why should I not show rancor towards some one who claims to be a christian, yet favors nuclear weapons?
You have already made it clear that you are in favor of the bible and there was a god who created the world. By any definition of the word "dogmatic," that applies.
There is an awful lot of proof that survival of the fittest and natural selection exists, (And I don't mean Mike's version) but you are choosing to discard it and even trying to discredit the idea. Be honest - from what you have said, the theory has given you a deeper understanding of what the bible says.
Once again, I do not believe the theory of evolution proves the bible wrong. It certainly casts doubts as to the correct interpretation. But we have been fighting over that since it was written. I do not think the question of whether there is a god or not will ever be answered all the time there are people who insist there is. I have made up my own mind, using my "free will."
And as for what is taught in schools, it should be "This is the theory of evolution," and "this is the proof for it,"but "there are people who believe a god did it,"
You don't like them? I have learned a lot from hubpages and one of those things is the value of a lot of traffic to a site, regardless of the reason
The topic is in great question. But mostly from people who have taken their education from a 2,000 year old book.
My own personal interpretation of the bible allows for evolution. It also allows for the fact that I do not know many christians. In fact, as I said earlier, christianity is probably the least-subscribed to religion in the world.
More damage than good? Only time will tell.........
And we are talking.
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
Ok PT...
Here you are relying on Moses to translate what God did so everyone can understand.
Here we are relying on Darwin to translate so everyone can understand.
Anyways water came first, so earth (dirt) also sprang from water. I totally understand what you are saying.
A fish is a fish is always a fish. I get it, but what you don't seem to get is that we are saying...
But a fish can grow wings over time according to its needs. It more than likely came with the trait to evolve itself according to its' enviornment. As its means for survival.
Take teeth for example. We (humans) were meant to be herbavoirs, that is what it says in the bible. However, look at our teeth. We do not have teeth that are strickly for chewing vegitation. We evolved to suit our enviornment. It is so slow to change we cannot call it spontanious.
Neither can a factual timeline be placed on the Genisis theory. Only assumptions to the best of our or there understandings.
But if both agree that things change over time, then what is the problem?
So there is only a 2% variable difference in Apes and humans DNA. Who is to say that humans are done evolving or that an Ape is not done evolving? In which case one will die out, possibly the apes and the humanoid (lol) species will prevail.
Sort of like a snake shedding its skin. (I said sorta) It continues to do so until it reaches it fullness and then it dies.
The fossils show evidence of the same species evolving over time.
What you are trying to say is that because there are apes and the are humans then they must be seperate.
I can say that humans come in all shapes and sizes and color and immunities and deficientcies, and over time from the 1st human fossil found to a modern human fossils, there are differences but that does not mean it was something else.
Can you see at all what I am saying.
You do not know that because the Bible said humans, that humans did not make the mistake of calling humans, apes. Who painted the stripes on a zebra?
When Oprah Winfrey suggested the book called A Course In Miracles to her book club would you say that Oprah evolved from being a Christian to not being a Christian? Or would that be devolved? Or maybe Oprah was never a Christian to start with and was just telling her fans that she was to gain their audience?
Check your history Misha, the Russian Marxist Atheist Revolution first outlawed all religions even the Russian Orthodox. There is still persecution of some religions in Russia.
http://www.amazon.com/Godless-Communist … 0875802575
http://books.google.ca/books?id=IY3DfLf … #PPA101,M1
Call yourselves a monkey's uncle all you want but don't call me one.Mike,
I don't need to read the books for that, I lived there at that time. I was born at 1960, right in the midst of communist rule. Yes, communists outlawed all religions, just to replace them with their own version of mummy worship. Kids and students were learning by heart "History of the Communist Party" pretty much like religious people here learn by heart the Bible... The same story - you have to believe what is written there, any attempt to think through it or to question the validity of it, or to try to tie logical ends together is a heresy and deserves at least jail sentence...
At later times they allowed for some development of orthodox church. Most (if not all) of the priests were KGB agents, though...
Oh, and btw it is the Church now who leads the persecution of other religions. Russia now is pretty much Orthodox Republic
Mike, I can't compare first hand - I did not live before the revolution
You didn't? But I thought you were a zombie.
(Thanks for the lovely karma.)
And to Mike:
I find that whether you are teaching evolution or religious doctrine, if the teacher is bigoted there is a chance this bigotry will be passed to the children, if the teacher is not then a wonderful open discussion on the topics can be forthcoming and very enlightening.
It all depends on how the parents and teachers convey information not the information itself that is the issue.
I learned all about the Russian Revolution and the Nazi party. It didn't make me want to become a Communist or kill Jewish people. This is because I wasn't indoctrinated by bigoted teachers, I was simply taught the facts and theories surrounding these events by impartial means, which lead to many open discussions on the subjects.
I was also taught evolution and religion. Neither of which caused me to become an elitist or fanatic. It's all in the delivery not the information itself.
Mike - whatever you are smoking I want some.
The only people I see pushing communism is the US government. Committing $200 billion of US taxpayers money to bale out Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
I don't recall them mentioning Darwin's theory of diminishing property values. Survival of the least over-borrowed.
I guess ignorance is an excuse after all............................Funny thing about the U.S government. Really if they would have committed $200 billion dollars (or had given the money back to the people) we could have paid off our debts to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Then people could still have thier homes and the bank would have been spared but the U.S will still be in a tremedous deficit which I don't see no matter how good a speaker or thinker is, that this debt will ever go away.
Who pays the price for all the garbage the U.S government buys??? Everyone.
Go figure.
The US military budget for 2009 is around $700,000,000,000.00
The price of being scared.......Dude! That is like one of those numbers that should be in exponet form.
You have to wonder. I mean with a spending power of $1,400 billion.
$700 billion on bullets
$200 billion on bailing out the banks
$15 on health care
Doesn't take a genius to work out that the problem is only just beginning.
Exxon seem to be doing OK thoughthanks for breaking those numbers down. lol. So the govenment loves bullets, loves banks and doesn't care much about our health. Yeah, that pretty much somes it up.
Funny thing, I hate bullets, I hate banks and I care about health. WTF! LOLOL
Communism and Christianity are twins. Both methods are used by ruling elites to control the population.
I wasn't around at the time of early Christianity, so I can't really agree or disagree to you.
Mike - all you are doing is persuading us you still do not understand Darwin's theory.
People who have "faith" appear to be blinded by the bleeding obvious. Christianity was a control system written to persuade people to get out from under the ruling class of the day and fall under another control system instead. As was communism.
Roman Empire vs Christianity
Czar/Orthodox Church vs Communism
Zero difference. One used the idea of a god as one of its tools, the other used the idea of no god. Why? Look at the ruling class of the day.
I think they were both started with good intentions and became twisted.
I have never met a real christian. And I doubt there were any real communists.
People who have "faith," also seem to "believe" that all the other control systems are the evil one.
But none of this has anything whatsoever to do with evolution.Mike -
One of the advantages of having a written online discussion is the ability to quote what other people have said. Feel free to quote me insulting christianity.
I may have "insulted,' a few christians, but that is an entirely different thing. And the only insult I usually level is:
You do not practice what your religion preaches
You are a great example. If you practiced what Jesus preached, i.e. tolerance, love, understanding and a disdain for the church, you and I would not even be having this conversation.
I started this thread in an attempt to educate ignorant people such as yourself as to what evolution actually is, yet rather than be educated, you choose to attack me and insist that Darwinism is some sort of evil religion opposed to christianity
How very christian of you.........
Pax.
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