Is this the "missing" link that proves evolution?

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59
Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago
Well I'll tell you Jim, when I start taking anything seriously from someone who attended Liberty University's theological teachings, especially the Biblical history classes, it'll be a cold day in- well, you know.

Recently, Liberty University banned members of the school's student Democratic organization. The university cut any funding to the group because these students dared to think for themselves. Something you would not have been in danger of doing were you still there. Apparently this Christian right wing conservative school is having problems with some of the students waking up and realizing they have a mind of their own. The last eight years of the Christian right has taken it's toll on the republican party, especially among young people.

This college is financed by Sun Myung Moon. The vice chancellor of the university once worked for Moon. So technically, you're a "Moonie." Something you are probably proud to proclaim.

You may accuse me of trying to divert the discussion again but you did say you attended this university. This is why your opinions on evolution carry absolutely no weight. I am trying very hard to find something to discuss with you that you actually know something about, but if think the world is only 10,000 years old it is hopeless.
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60
Colebabieposted 15 years ago
While the "jackalope" isn't a real animal, the Shope papilloma virus does cause horn-like growths on rabbits. This virus has been a model to develop the HPV vaccine.

The real "jackalope"

Just thought that was interesting.
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59
Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago
Make Money, we agree on the country's food supply. Have you ever observed how chickens are raised for the market? If you have, you probably won't be ordering chicken Mcnuggets for a few days. The same can be said of pork and beef. Besides that, the farmer only gets a fraction of the price you pay at the supermarket. And this isn't all profit, the expenses for producing these meats can take up to three fourths of the small amount the grower receives.

As far as GM crops go, I have not studied about these much as I do not use them on my farm, so you will get no argument from me on your data. The main crop for me is peanuts, you can buy all you want for $400 a ton.
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Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago
Make Money, you are closer to the truth that you realize. I know your religion believes in trying to force others to close their eyes, these are some graphical representations of proven evolutionary changes that we have seen happen. Well, one of the true believers saw happen 40,000 years ago and wrote on a piece of stone which was lost but then found by another believer who worked out how to read the dead language and wrote on another piece of stone that was lost for ages but eventually found again.

Proof !
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1. 60
  usmanali81posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mark!
  
  Here is a genuine question for you.
  
  if you are evolved from monkeys then why the monkeys around you in the zoo are still monkeys, why they are not evolved yet???
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We are not evolved from monkeys. And monkeys are evolved too. That is what monkeys look like when they evolve.
  
  Here is a genuine question for you.
  
  What do you think the theory of evolution says?
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2. 59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ...from the broken record of bigotry...again...
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Troll.
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3. 68
  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's funny Mark.
  
  But I don't think the original post has anything to do with religion. I don't believe that we evolved from an ancestor of monkeys or that the Ida fossil is the missing link because I think they are both ridiculous notions from wild imaginations. The reason why I believe that has nothing to do with whether I am religious or not.
  
  Besides like JimLow said, you are the one that brought religion into this thread yourself Mark.
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
broken record

broken record

broken record

When will you be satisfied that enough people are aware of your bigotry? Or is it some kind of OCD thing to keep repeating it ad nauseum?
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1. 59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Odd isn't it. I only ever say something like that in response to a bigoted post from a religionist. And yet you never seem to notice that. How very strange. I realize you have an agenda that involves attempting to provoke people into a response that could be construed as a personal attack, but you have to remember that all users can see all forums, and you have provoked me in this fashion dozens of times.
  
  I really would enjoy a good argument with you but to be honest, I have never seen you write anything vaguely worth a response.
  
  I am guessing you never went to school? Were you by any chance home schooled?
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  59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying you DON'T like things repeated dozens of times?
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, I am saying you are attempting to provoke me rather than have a conversation. Can you even read?
  
  Is your mummy typing this for you?
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59
tksenseiposted 15 years ago
For a guy who claims to want a conversation you sure are pretty keen on the personal insults. Not very good at them, but keen on them nonetheless.

You keep posting on religion threads but you don't seem to want to have a conversation about religion, you just seem to want to repeat your denunciation of religion over and over and over. This makes your "I wish I could have a conversation" bit seem very hypocritical. Maybe I missed the posts where you engaged religious people in conversation without insulting their beliefs. Do you have a link to any of those?
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1. 59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What personal insult was that exactly? I was merely making an observation and asking a question.
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  59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I see. So the "Is your mommy typing" and "You never went to school" comments were not intended as insults? Is that what you're saying?
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mirror, mirror on the wall............
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  59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You didn't answer my question.
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I did - you just did not understand.
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Leta Sposted 15 years ago
It's so funny, that even on the internet, one can get used to some people and understand how they are and why they do what they tend to do--and learn to respect them.

And then there are others you figure out, even though you actually liked them initially--that you understand have a serious problem, and appear to be one of the meanest people you've witnessed.

Just an observation.
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1. 59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL. You can be more direct. You won't hurt my feelings.
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
For a guy who keeps saying he wants a 'conversation'...
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1. 59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OK - I will respond and see what you can come up with. I would prefer it if you did not use the words "fear" or "bigot" when responding.
  
  I choose to give the religionists a hard time. I usually respond in kind to their preaching the gospel of anti-abortion, anti-evolution, anti-gay, anti-whatever.
  
  I do this intentionally to give them a taste of their own medicine, but I also stand firmly behind whatever opinion I am expressing on the subject at hand. You have consistently cropped my responses to these people down to one phrase and told me I am a bigot for disagreeing with their stances or "afraid" of religion. I fail to see the point of you expressing yourself in this fashion, because it demonstrates a lack of education, and suggests you are only really interested in fighting, and like the religionists, you repeating the same thing again and again will not make it come true.
  
  Why do you do this? Are you so insecure and frustrated that this is the only way you can express yourself?
  
  Why does it bother you that I argue with the anti-abortionist and anti-evolutionists, and the anti-gay marriage brigade who use religion as their justification.
  
  Do you share their value system and I am somehow a threat to you?
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  59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I would prefer it if I did not need to. That's kind of up to you.
  
  I know, and that is the problem. You are not having a 'conversation' or 'debate' or whathaveyou, you are just denouncing faiths held by hundreds of millions of people. There's nothing sophisticated, educated, or intelligent about that despite what you seem to want to believe. ('believe')
  
  You think that's gonna result in anything positive, or just give you an opportunity to bash people's faith?
  
  But you HAVE been responding in a bigoted manner and as if you are threatened by and afraid of religion. Do you honestly not see that?
  
  Tell me how exactly it "demonstrates a lack of education." That is an interesting turn of phrase you keep using. Can I assume you are a PhD or something by the frequency with which you use the phrase?
  
  Be honest now. You can see how that exact comment applies to YOU, right?
  
  See above.
  
  You are not arguing with them. You are just disrespecting and denouncing beliefs held by hundreds of millions. Worse, you are dismissing a fundamental aspect of the human experience itself, regardless of your personal 'choices.'
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm. Condescending. Not a great start.
  
  That is where you are wrong. Just because I am taking a contrary position to these people, that does not mean I am not debating. You just see what you want to see. And that is the fact that I disagree with the positions, and I am offended that they blame their position on an invisible nonexistent god.
  
  As I have mentioned in the past, I am not really speaking to these people with the intention of changing their mind. These are public forums so perhaps some one who is undecided as to whether abortion is a sin will read them and make their own, rational decision.
  
  No, I haven't. You just choose to call it that because it disagrees with your viewpoint.
  
  Simple. It is an extremely poor debating technique, used primarily to distract away from the fact that you have nothing to say.
  
  See above comment.
  
  What a strong point.
  
  I do not really care how many people believe this rubbish. You are too ignorant to see the difference between what I am doing and what you are doing.
  
  In this entire response, all you have done is re-iterate that you think I am a bigot because I do not agree with the religionist stance. I notice you have not expressed one single solitary personal opinion on anything other than that.
  
  Once again demonstrating a lack of education. Seriously - it is very difficult to have a conversation with you if you never say anything other than ""you are a bigot, you are a bigot."
  
  Now see if you can actually answer the questions I posed without just calling me a bigot.
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  0
  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wooooooooooooooooooo Hooooooooooooo Mark!!!!! Dude was speechless. LOL
  
  Posted by someone with 3 BA's and 2 MA's
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You or him?
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't admit to it THAT often, but me (I'm sure he'll find a way NOT to be impressed, though that seemed some of his focus - whatever fits the agenda with this one.)
  
  Him--UH, not so much...
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is a lot of degrees. What are you - a professional scholar?
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No...maybe...used to be? Was going to be a professor. Now I just work in the ever promising world of PR, . Can't ya tell? lol
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  59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The fact that you want and expect (need?) anyone to be impressed should tell you something about yourself worth considering carefully.
  
  And there is a fine line between well educated and 'been hiding in academica too long.' Not saying you've crossed that line, but you should factor that in to your expectations.
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It was a joke. Jeeeeeezus.. And I KNEW exactly what your reaction would be. Wanted to see it...
  
  You're so right, teach. I just have NO self worth. I pity myself. booo hooo. I should have stayed uneducated, as conservatives like 'em. FYI, it's 'academia.' And I did the 3 BA's all at once in 4.5 years/MA's most often working 2 jobs.
  
  You know so much about every soul here, .
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  59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! You really did give up on your research into logical fallacies, didn't you?
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Na. Did you see my post is the 'bullying' thread? When necessary, fight fire with fire...
  
  And I understand, you're Irish. I live with one of those. They love to fight, but not rationally, And once their tempers are raised, they'll fight anything or anyone about the silliest lil things. Can't calm it...humor sometimes does it.
  
  I also have been told that I do excellently well at pseudo-psychology.
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  60
  countrywomenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's a lot of degrees. I am sure your parents must be very proud of you. I hope you do complete your PhD too (which was my dream too once). What else can I say except congratulating youand bowing in admiration
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  59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's rich coming from you.
  
  You are NOT debating, as your following comments all but admit.
  
  See what I mean? That is not 'debating' it is merely dismissing people's beliefs. That's all you do over and over and over.
  
  There you go. NOT interested in debating by your own admission.
  
  Meaning anyone who disagrees with YOU is necessarily irrational? Still don't see what I mean?
  
  Look up the definition of bigotry if you must.
  
  We have established that you are not debating, and I think I'm saying what I have to say pretty clearly.
  
  According to your own statement above, you DO care.
  
  Read that out loud to yourself.
  
  Because you continue to act like one.
  
  That is the point I've been making.
  
  Once again that charge makes no sense.
  
  And you expect to have a 'conversation' with people of faith when you repeat "Your beliefs are stupid!" over and over?
  
  I'd like to see you stop acting like a bigot and really engage some of these folks in a respectful exchange of views. You won't of course. Perhaps you are not capable of doing so. Too bad, because then you might get that 'conversation' you keep claiming to want. And you might even learn something.
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But you are not really making any views known. You still haven't said anything. Can't answer the question. Sorry I think your irrational beliefs are, well......... irrational.
  
  AI have already learnt something from you. You can do one line statement that I am a bigot and that is about it. See where the lack of education comes into it?
  
  And naming your self "teacher," well.
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  59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sure I am. You've recognized it yourself.
  
  You've said yourself that I have.
  
  There you go. See? That is my view and you recognize that I have said it. That is the point I'm stressing here. If you would stop repeating the same bigoted nonsense I wouldn't need to keep reminding you of it.
  
  No. That still makes no sense.
  
  Yes? Are you a teacher?
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79
Sufidreamerposted 15 years ago
But then they are only art degrees, Mark

:GetthehelloutofDodgebeforeLitakillsmesmiley:

David McNeary

http://www.flickr.com/photos/skinny_fists/3435844408/
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1. 59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Aw man - that is cruel. True, but cruel.
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79
Sufidreamerposted 15 years ago
Couldn't resist
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hahahahaha HA. Sufi. From you, a 'personal attack' is still charming.
  
  Journalism isn't art, I'd point out. But, thanks! You made me smile after working all day.
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
I'd like to see you stop acting like a bigot and really engage some of these folks in a respectful exchange of views. You won't of course. Perhaps you are not capable of doing so. Too bad, because then you might get that 'conversation' you keep claiming to want. And you might even learn something.
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1. 59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why should I respect anyone who claims that evolution does not happen because of their religious beliefs?
  
  And as for a respectful exchange of views. That is rich coming from you, troll-sensei. What is the "k" for?
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  59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So you admit that you have no interest in debate or discussion? You are just here to belittle people's beliefs, right?
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What discussion? I have had this discussion ad infinitum with most of these people. But yes - I will belittle your beliefs if you think evolution does not happen because your mummy told you god says it didn't.
  
  And you are here for what? I have seen at least one thread closed because you attacked some one.
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  59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I haven't mentioned my personal beliefs, but there you go again. That is all you are here to do. You admit yet again that you have no respect for those with differing views and no interest in conversation or debate, and you dare to complain about ME?.
  
  Look at yourself. Again and again with the personal attacks. I have a problem with your repeated and insistent bigotry, but I haven't mentioned your "mommy" or your "education" or such. I am taking issue with your words and your attitude. YOU are attacking personally. You are in no position to be pointing fingers.
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  What debate? You have not mentioned your beliefs. Please feel free, and I will be happy to discuss the rationality of ignoring proven scientific facts in favor of what your mummy told you.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No I haven't. The point I have been trying to make (how many times do I have to say this?) is that YOUR bigotry is offensive and counter productive.
  
  There you go again. There is the dismissive attitude and the personal attack. Why?
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No personal attack here. Merely stating facts. Please express an opinion on anything other than what you think of me.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Facts? The cutesy little cracks about "mommy" are facts? Claiming people you don't know have "no education" is a fact? Nothing but personal attack.
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I never claimed you had no education. I merely stated the fact that you comport yourself in such a fashion as to suggest that you have no education and asked you about it. You declined to answer.
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  59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Now you're gonna dance around it? Why? Because you have been forced to take a look at your behavior? There would be more dignity in just moving on in a more positive fashion.
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  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
Yeah, there's the guy who keeps complaining about wanting a conversation...
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1. 59
  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, if you ever said anything worth responding to. I gave you a chance, and this is the best you can come up with?
  
  It is not advisable to enter a battle of wits unarmed. All you do is demonstrate your lack of education.
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  59
  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  More personal attacks. Clever.
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
Enough Mark, you are making a fool of yourself.

tksensei it's clear Mark is trying to get this thread closed because his religious belief in evolution has clearly lost this debate about Ida the "missing link".
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countrywomenposted 15 years ago
I personally feel addressing issues instead of taking a swipe at each other would better drive home the point. Sorry didn't mean to intervene. Have a good day everyone.
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frans240posted 15 years ago
it is actually funny to see people arguing about what it is they believe in...does it really matter?? Does the way we try to oppose each other and even wage war on each other ..just because one thinks he or she is right... ?? People believe what they believe even when there is hard evidence to prove them wrong

Doesn't evolution teaches us it takes thousands or 100.000's of years for a species to e.g. evolve from stone to iron? or to discover fire?? So why are they still searching for the "Missing" Link? or in this case present the missing link as just that..case closed?? nobody has ever explained HOW and WHY Homo sapiens came to be in the relative short time of about 35.000 years and did what they did...small group..was suddenly there and where did the cromagnon or neathertaler go?? Why do we have a reptillian brain?? (at least in the center of our human brain?)Its all fine with me... God, The Universe, Big bang Allah ,,,,c'mon we are talking about ONE and the same thing..and we division ourselves everytime!!!!!!!!!!! Why not come out of the closet and finally admit we are human hybrids..genetically engineered.. if you look at evidence and talk about evolution.. science is still very conservative and so is religion.. maybe it is time for...Quantum Physics
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1. 68
  B.Z. Alixandreposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, quantum physics, where hard science and new age philosophy manage to merge! I love it!
  
  Back to the very first pages, I saw much about "theory" and "fact" and such. Herein lies a great problem with evolution, for believers and nonbelievers (though using that word in association with evolution makes me scowl). Theory in the realm of science is not "just a theory" as I might tell my friend I think a guy likes her but its just a theory. It is infact a very strict and regulated concept. In biology, it is the highest statement one can make. Chemistry, physics, and math go one step further and create laws, but biology pretty much stops at theory.
  
  Facts support a conclusion, they are not the conclusion. So the fact is that a specimen was found and that a technique, which has been tested and agreed upon to be an accurate tool for measuring age of old specimens, has arrived at the information that the specimen is 47 million years old. The fact is that this apparently 47 million year old specimen appears to have characteristics mingling the characteristics of primates and ancient humans (which are, taxonomically speaking, apes). The conclusion that has been made is that this specimen may be the missing link. Whether you believe in evolution or not, can we at least agree that these facts exist and that this conclusion has been made? (And I am not asking you to agree that the dating method is accurate, only that it has been concluded to be accurate by people who study objects that are assumed to be older than what many creationists believe the world to be and therefor is paradoxically impossible to their belief system and so must have concluded wrongly.)
  
  And so, in assuming these facts exist, the original question is could this be the missing link. In traditional logic where if A then B, creationists of course state not A therefore not B. So for the creationists the answer must be, no, this is not the missing link because according to the principles of creationism the missing link does not exist. So, for evolutionists, the question is more complicated. I think this is another step. Before Ida, came Lucy. For those of you rusty on anthropology (which I am, so I'm not the best source), Lucy was discovered in the first half of the 20th century (in the hay day of anthropology), and was the first fossil evidence that our ancestors went far enough back for evolution to do its thing with us. Ida, as far as I'm concerned, is no more the missing link than Lucy is, because, like the mathematical paradox (if you divide the distance between two objects continuously, the two objects will never come together because there will still be space between them. Maybe this is more of a physics paradox, oh well), we will never find a pure missing link, because there will always be steps in between. Ida is the size of a cat, so now that there is evidence that Ida had primate characteristics, how did her descendents become what we are. Unfortunately the answer is the question, evolution.
  
  One more thing to keep in mind, scientific theories themselves experience evolution (which the technical definition of is simply change that is hereditary (passed down to the next generation)) and the theory of evolution has evolved, it is not the same creature today as it was when Darwin developed it. Then it was not called evolution, but the theory of natural selection.
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Is this the "missing" link that proves evolution?

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