Any opinions on the upcoming Project Artemis, the return to the moon?
The last men had set foot on its surface during the early 1970s. It is time to return to do great science and get a base constructed at the lunar South Pole.
Why the South Pole, I wondered. You made me look.
This Smithsdonian Magazine article gives a good explanation.
A high 3-D printer, on the moon, to make building materials out of moon dust . . . It looks like NASA has big plans in the works.
GAGA, thanks for your comment so far away from our usual beaten path.
It was a great article and as you say, NASA will have its hands full bringing it all to fruition.
I was hoping for a more expansive facility beyond the modular structures in coming years, but hard hats and space helmets do not go together too well.
If I were only 50 years younger, by the time I get to the really neat stuff, life span issues will begin to arise.
As it is, while I probably won't get to go, if I can only get HD quality video of surface activity topped with an Earthrise or two, I would then have to consider my wish fulfilled.Here's a tangent . . . I recall conversations about Elon Musk's Mars ambitions; things like his triade of primary companies, ie. covered space with SpaceX, working on covering subsurface dwelling with his Boring Co., and I bet his AI and Tesla efforts are focused on more than earthbound electric vehicles.
The linked article mentioned that long-term lunar habitats would need the equivalent of 6-feet of lunar surface to protect people from radiation that our system filters out.
You should look at his boring co. It doesn't look earthbound to me. With his Falcon 9 advancements, it might be just a matter of 'piece by piece, by piece. The fun part is speculating how many zeros would be in the government contracts. ;-)
GA
I have no faith in NASA or our government to see it through.
The sole chance of mankind stepping beyond earth to Mars (or anywhere else) relies on Elon Musk.
https://www.spacex.com/human-spaceflight/mars/
Bureaucracy and Politics will forever cripple NASA from making any significant progress. Space X will have made it to Mars before NASA has made a base on the moon.Musk is impressive, but the scope of such an endeavor may well be more than even he could chew.
He proposes a great deal, I need to see more than just suborbital launches. I am corrected, it appears that one of his rockets have achieved full earth orbit.
I won't say more until I see more as to what he and Space X has accomplished to date and get back with you.
A manned journey to Mars by 2026? That is the dream of a visionary.That has been amended to 2029.
I believe that target date is achievable.
Few realize what his ultimate goals were/are and how the collective efforts of what his various companies are achieving will make sustainable presence on Mars possible.
Consider his efforts into Satellites, Solar Power, Battery operated vehicles, Battery Storage, Robotics, Artificial Intelligence, and Rocketry,
To create a sustainable presence on Mars, one would need Satellites, a renewable reliable Energy Source, Vehicles, Robots, Rocketry to get there, etc.
Musk has even considered the necessity of boring into Mars to create a safe underground living space for humans (the Boring company).
This is a man that essentially is responsible (as much as anyone) for the new Digital Wallet era, the Electric Vehicle era, the Reusable Rocket era, advancing Solar Power and Battery technology, Satellite technology, and Artificial Intelligence.
As I said, he is Humanities only hope of achieving this in the next 20 years or more. The chances of a government today, especially the American government, uniting to achieve this, to fund this, without politics, regulations and bureaucracy sabotaging its goals is highly improbable.I always have a problem with private sector visionaries as the next step will be that they will claim the Planet Mars as their own private property, with lots for sale.
Continuing the Musk speculation . . .
My perception is that most space experts and visionaries say the moon must be our next space exploration step, primarily because of the reduced costs of space launches. (low gravity and stuff)
What if the popular perception that Musk and his companies have Mars as their goal is a ruse? What if his real primary goal is to establish inhabitable launch facilities on the moon? If his companies did become involved in NASA's Artimus-type projects he would be seen as a benevolent rich guy helping America.
I think that if the Moon had been the stated goal of his years-long efforts to build the necessary technologies and companies the public and governments of the world might be a little more concerned.
What if Musk's machines made it to the moon to do government contract work, who could tell him he couldn't do any 'side projects' of his own?
What if he did the government work and then built himself a few tunnels and claimed squatter's rights? What would be the tool to stop him?
Your paranoia might be right this time. The world's richest white man might be an evil schemer too. ;-)
GAMusk doesn't want anything to do with the Moon, unless it helps him get to Mars faster, which last I recall it being mentioned, according to Musk it does not, its just a waste of time, effort and materials.
Musk wants humanity to become a two planet species.
Entirely understandable, as it stands now if anything happens to this planet humanity goes extinct.
Going to the moon doesn't solve that problem.
Going to Mars, there is a plausible possibility that it could sustain life, and potentially with much effort become a second home to humanity.
Musk wants to die on Mars, his true plans are to take himself and some of the best and brightest minds to Mars, along with EVs and Robots and a very capable AI and make a colony there that can sustain itself without resupplies from Earth.
Rockets need to be able to travel there and back again, I believe he feels up to a thousand trips will be required to get the resources needed to the planets surface.
I believe the initial flights to Mars will be to release satellites into Mars' orbit, next phase will be unmanned, Robots, Drones, Vehicles and supplies being sent.
Musk knows his window is around 20 years to get all this done.
Then the next phase will actually be humans, himself included, traveling to Mars.Musk is a visionary, it is a tremendous reach to speak of any realistic Domicile beyond the Earth for massive habitation in my opinion. If such is ever determined to be possible, it won't be in the foreseeable future.
Mars, in reality, is almost as inhabitable as the moon.
Who do you think would be really willing to die on Mars? How many others are willing to commit to what has to be spartan conditions for the remainder of their lives? I am willing to bet you that he does not actually have the ability to go to Mars and sustain himself within his own lifetime. That is my bet. Seeing is believing.
A thousand trips? I guess that he has already figured the cost per pound of putting anything in Earth orbit. Even over 20 years with a potential lunar launch point, a thousand spacecraft and a thousand trips to Mars stretches credibility.That's why I have tremendous respect for Musk.
Your opinion is a common one, always finding reasons or belief as to why something can't be done.
Musk has dealt with that all his life, he couldn't build a private Rocket company, he couldn't recycle those rockets, he couldn't create his own satellite network and make internet possible the world over.
Musk couldn't build a car company to compete with Legacy Auto or the Japanese, Musk couldn't make EVs work for everyday use, and Musk can't go to Mars.
I would, many would, what an incredible honor it would be, to be considered for such a mission, to take a step for all humanity to another planet.
What do people live for?
What purpose do they serve?
To be able to be part of something so important to all humanity, I can think of nothing else more honorable and more worthy of devoting my remaining years to.
You are correct, most wouldn't be willing to do that.
Only the best, the brightest, the most selfless, the ones that can see beyond their own petty wants and needs to the bigger picture.1. I am more anxious to get to Mars and expand our horizons than most. Science research and exploration is in itself worth the effort.
2. I give Musk credit for expanding the envelope of our technological abilities.
However, "where they is a will, there is a way", does not always work in the face of technological, logistical limits. The capacity to get something daunting done has to based on more than just your will to do.
Without vastly more sophisticated propulsions systems we really cannot get very far. While, I wish him well, I have to see to believe and I will be watching and will give credit where it is due.
If he himself can get to Mars within the next 20 years, I would be surprised.
As for you, let's not come off as so terribly noble. You are willing to spend the rest of your natural life without hope of return to earth living on an airless planet? Would you really jump first in line for the one way ticket?
The "big picture" may well not be a realistic vision or even a desirable one.
What is more important is to take better care of the planet we currently inhabit.Taking better care of the planet is a given.
The problem with that is nearly overwhelming.
We want to take care of the planet, yet we let Brazil clear cut the Rainforest known as the Earth's Lungs at record pace.
We want to take care of the planet, yet Europe shuts down all its Nuclear Power plants, doesn't make new ones, and instead decides to rely on Russian oil and gas exports for the majority of its energy needs.
Our leaders tell us Climate Change and Global Warming is going to destroy our world and then they make decisions to make things worse while wanting to punish common people and create a Carbon Tax.
As for my being "terribly noble" I don't look at it as you do.
I think it would be a great opportunity to experience things no other humans will, to get answers to things no other humans will in our lifetimes.
I always volunteered in the Army, I never stayed in one place for much more than a year and I never wanted to. I wanted to see the world, I wanted to be in the middle of the action, I wanted to do things... not let others do, or rely on others to do.
I am the same way now, I am the only one on both sides of our families to own not one, but two EVs. I'm not interested in what the naysayers have to say about EVs nor am I afraid to do what I believe in despite the fact that no one else believes in it.
I have a quote, a few actually, most from Kennedy, that are a guide for my actions, this one is not Kennedy but comes from a character I relate to:
Doesn't matter what the press says.
Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say.
Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right.
This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences.
When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move."
I'd go to Mars without a moment's hesitation.Despite disputes with China, Europe or Brazil, is an attempt to colonize an airless planet really an alternative? We still have air to breathe here. The technology simply does not exist that can make the planet Mars suitable for human habitation without artificial life support without involving an inconceivable period of time.
Everybody admires a sense of adventure, and assuming calculable risks associated with going off the beaten path. You have to stand your ground as we all must and that includes where and why my lines in the sand are drawn.
Just out of curiosity, who is this character with the quote that you relate to?There are several reasons why this is critical, vital, to our survival.
First it will change the narrative, I really believe this will impact how the global society views itself. It will begin the end of our fighting amongst ourselves as nations... rather than looking inward we will begin looking out, toward the stars, and realize we can move beyond.
Second, colonizing another planet will protect the future of humanity. Today if an asteroid or other natural disaster occurs it could wipe out our species. As the moon is so close it could fall into the radius of whatever caused such a calamity. Mars most likely would be outside of that radius.
Third the wealth of knowledge that will come from it, as well as the advances in technology.I liked your first paragraph reply as that is much the premise that Star Trek and similar science fiction programs are based upon. I am all for that.
Rather than resist your idea, my point is that such a massive transfer of people and resources lacks the technology to sustain it and that sort of technology is not just "right around the corner" regardless of who may say so.
"yet we let Brazil clear cut the Rainforest known as the Earth's Lungs at record pace"
You do realize that this country is 60% forest while a place like England is 10% forest because they deforested their country to enslave the world? Before making a statement like this, maybe you all should look in your own backyards.
If we see those other countries converting their grazing land into forests it would be a little easier to take you serious. SInce that is not happening, it just looks like countries that have already raped their environments for economic gain just want to prevent development here.Humanity in general wipes out forests, I would be interested in you showing me an example of where we haven't done that, often to our detriment.
However, we are not talking about 100s of years in the past. Trying to compare the two times is ridiculous.
We are talking about the 21st century when we KNOW what damage clear cutting does, when we KNOW how bad climate change is and how cutting down the world's greatest rainforest WILL make it worse.
It is a global problem. One where if the UN, G20, etc. were at all serious about addressing the issue of Climate Change (rather than using it as an excuse to control and tax people) they would do whatever it took to convince Brazil to STOP... even if it meant donating billions of dollars to buy the land to keep it from being destroyed.
That's well said. The Earth is the only planet human beings had to live and died. Actually, they's life in outer space. But these are not humans. Taking care of the Earth, and dying on it is more natural.
It makes a lot of sense that the moon would and should be the next logical steps as spacecraft can be built there and launched from there with considerably less energy required.
If he is involved in a ruse already, he and his intentions cannot be trusted. Yes, he is a good guy committed to service until he takes over.
Celestial bodies, as a whole, should not be "owned" by anyone, no more than the Antarctic continent. The capitalist would put a private property sign on the sun if it didn't melt first.
Yes, he, Musk, it certainly free to do whatever projects he wishes, but the Moon belongs to collective humanity not just one man.
These people are often times cut from the same cloth as the Rockefellers, Carnegies wanting to take it all, totally inappropriate for this century and its objectives. But, Providing some relatively charitable tidbits in return.
What's wrong with that?
If he and his companies invent what is needed and get to Mars, why should anyone else have a right to it?The moon nor, nor any other celestial body in the heavens can ever be the private property of any one man or company.
Why not? What is the reasoning that no man or company should own land?
What if that "celestial body" is a small asteroid? How about a tiny moon? Where would YOU draw the line, and how do you justify that line?Would you accept a single man owning the entire earth, Mars or Venus? I am speaking primarily about planets and moons, not a clump of boulders in space
I guess since the US was the first to plant its flag on the lunar surface, we can claim it all as American territory?Shortly, after the United States, Russia, pinned her flag on the Lunar Moon. Consequently, they're many nations of the world landing on the Moon, and erecting their nation's flags on the Moon's surface. They should be joint owner with the United States? Is there a thing as scrabble for the universe? That's madness.
Cred,
I agree with you 100%.
I had a law course on property once. The professor said, "How many people here believe they own land?"
After a few people raised their hands, he said "What does history show us about the land that you think you own? The land you believe you own has been thought of as the property of ancient peoples, modern people and will have ownership claimed over it by people in the future.
Do you really own it? He asked.
Then he explained how land ownership is determined by having a country with a military strong enough to take it and defend it. Should that not be the case, the land you think you own will be then taken over and thought of as owned by another country.
So, do you really own land?
The answer is you have the illusion of owning land because a government is able to defend and is in a position to determine laws and regulations associated with providing the illusion of owning land. If you don't believe me, try not paying your taxes, the government will come and take your illusionary land ownership. Try and go against an ordinance or local or federal law associated with the land. The government will take your illusionary land ownership because it can. If the government needs your land for something better, and they have the military to defend it, they have the resources to take it from you. This is something that has happened for thousands of years. This is something that has been done since people formed functional governments."
So, it will be the same with Mars. It will go to the nation or government that is able to take it and defend it. The government will then come in and provide the illusion of land ownership. It how human beings do things.Thanks, Mike, I am delighted that we can see eye to on this one.
Regardless of the fact that Mr. Musk is worth well over 100 billions, certain ideals and principles are simply not for sale.
Primitive thinking lends us to believe that precepts of capitalism would be the primarily impetus for exploration of the Cosmos, a project that belongs to the whole of humanity.I wonder if it would turn out like the United States.
People on Mars get tired of not being represented on Earth, they stage a rebellion against the authority located on Mars to be free from the rule of those on Earth.
People all over the Earth begin to migrate to Mars for a better life.
Could be a really could Sci Fi book.If it is Musk who gets there, it is Musk who will own everything created by Musk's company's efforts.
I am sure he will give the big one fingered salute to whatever government entity thinks they can control him... As well he should.So, He can own Mars, the Moon or maybe even the Sun and charge rent?
I think he should own, control and do with what he wants anything HIS efforts and HIS risks are able to create on Mars.
I don't think any government should have a say in anything a individual or company creates off this world.
I think IF a government ever makes an effort to go to another planet and they get there, then they have a right to say what goes on there.
Its sad that a man of such brilliance and vision has to be hampered by a corrupt government that is beholden to corporations that Musk is displacing and putting out of business.
It is sad that people who are incapable of creating and producing can interfere with and try to control people like Musk who are advancing humanity, standing in the way of the progress he is making.
It is sad that they will try to take, by force if necessary, what he does create on Mars and claim it as their right to do so.
What advantages has the missions to Mars had for mankind? Is it just testing technology that can harness life on Earth? Hopefully, we know that the Moon is still the labratory of the Earth. Compared to Mars, human being can't habit those two inhuman planet as the Earth. But we do know that the planned missions of human beings colonizing space moon as visitors is yet to be achieved. But why Mars? Oddly, the Earth has a lot to offer us a living space. We're not yet done with it. That was the vision of Adolf Hitler...to get more living space here. And that primarily factored the WW 2.
Because Mars is the only other planet in our system that mankind has even a chance of surviving on without massive effort forever. We have changed earth's atmosphere; we can change Mars as well. And we can change us, too, for that matter; those people living in Tibet could perhaps, in a few generations, live on Mars without much assistance.
Wilderness, tell Elon Musk, to prepared a Big Spaceshhp, that would accomondated one million person including the Tibetans, to transport them to Mars yearly! lol!
The environment on Mars is far closer to that of the moon than that of the Earth, a tenuous atmosphere that cannot support the respiration process, devoid of oxygen, with an atmospheric pressure so low that even if the atmosphere were 100 percent oxygen, it remains to thin to breathe. But, I am certain that you know all of this already. Beyond Earth, every celestial body in this Solar system has been found wanting in any and all elements necessary to sustain human life.
Think about this, with the current propulsion technologies the trip is up to 9 months one way. It not like resupply for the space station in near Earth orbit, or even the Moon. To talk about any serious form of space commerce, we are going to have to evolve beyond rockets using chemical propellants. What's on the drawing board? Serious commerce to Mars and through out the solar system will require rockets capable of the use of considerably more energy to acquire shorter transit times. That, just to limit human exposure to radiation, not even to mention the need for shielding over so long a journey. Can Elon Musk meet these challenges? We will see.
Terraforming remains well within the realm of science fiction. With the current state of technology, Elon Musk or otherwise, to change the environment of Mars substantially would take centuries at a minimum. Elon Musk is operating at the limits of our technical capabilities today and while he may expand that envelope somewhat, the challenges are daunting the results of which I that doubt we will see soon.
Exploration and curiosity remains one of the few redeeming traits of mankind. Mars over the moon is somewhat more terrestial, but not by much. What advantages Mars may have is neutralized by its far greater distance.
Any serious talk about colonizing another planet is also science fiction. It would behoove us to take greater care of this planet as the cradle of life.
The is great deal to learn from the vantage point of science that would more than justify the journey, but rendering a liveable environment for a large number of colonists? I have to wonder.Credence, you wondering? It's a little matter. While I was an undergraduate at the university, professors usually sieze the occasion and ask you to research.
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