Any opinions on the upcoming Project Artemis, the return to the moon?

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  1. Credence2 profile image78
    Credence2posted 19 months ago

    The last men had set foot on its surface during the early 1970s. It is time to return to do great science and get a base constructed at the lunar South Pole.

    1. GA Anderson profile image89
      GA Andersonposted 18 months agoin reply to this

      Why the South Pole, I wondered. You made me look.

      This Smithsdonian Magazine article gives a good explanation.

      A high 3-D printer, on the moon, to make building materials out of moon dust . . . It looks like NASA has big plans in the works.

      GA

      1. Credence2 profile image78
        Credence2posted 18 months agoin reply to this

        GA, thanks for your comment so far away from our usual beaten path.

        It was a great article and as you say, NASA will have its hands full bringing it all to fruition.

        I was hoping for a more expansive facility beyond the modular structures in coming years, but hard hats and space helmets do not go together too well.

        If I were only 50 years younger, by the time I get to the really neat stuff, life span issues will begin to arise.

        As it is, while I probably won't get to go, if I can only get HD quality video of surface activity topped with an Earthrise or two, I would then have to consider my wish fulfilled.

        1. GA Anderson profile image89
          GA Andersonposted 18 months agoin reply to this

          Here's a tangent . . .  I recall conversations about Elon Musk's Mars ambitions; things like his triade of primary companies, ie. covered space with SpaceX, working on covering subsurface dwelling with his Boring Co., and I bet his AI and Tesla efforts are focused on more than earthbound electric vehicles.

          The linked article mentioned that long-term lunar habitats would need the equivalent of 6-feet of lunar surface to protect people from radiation that our system filters out.

          You should look at his boring co. It doesn't look earthbound to me. With his Falcon 9 advancements, it might be just a matter of 'piece by piece, by piece. The fun part is speculating how many zeros would be in the government contracts. ;-)

          GA

    2. Ken Burgess profile image76
      Ken Burgessposted 18 months agoin reply to this

      I have no faith in NASA or our government to see it through.

      The sole chance of mankind stepping beyond earth to Mars (or anywhere else) relies on Elon Musk.

      https://www.spacex.com/human-spaceflight/mars/

      Bureaucracy and Politics will forever cripple NASA from making any significant progress.  Space X will have made it to Mars before NASA has made a base on the moon.

      1. Credence2 profile image78
        Credence2posted 18 months agoin reply to this

        Musk is impressive, but the scope of such an endeavor may well be more than even he could chew.

        He proposes a great deal, I need to see more than just suborbital launches. I am corrected, it appears that one of his rockets have achieved full earth orbit.

        I won't say more until I see more as to what he and Space X has accomplished to date and get back with you.

        A manned journey to Mars by 2026? That is the dream of a visionary.

        1. Ken Burgess profile image76
          Ken Burgessposted 18 months agoin reply to this

          That has been amended to 2029.

          I believe that target date is achievable.

          Few realize what his ultimate goals were/are and how the collective efforts of what his various companies are achieving will make sustainable presence on Mars possible.

          Consider his efforts into Satellites, Solar Power, Battery operated vehicles, Battery Storage, Robotics, Artificial Intelligence, and Rocketry,

          To create a sustainable presence on Mars, one would need Satellites, a renewable reliable Energy Source, Vehicles, Robots, Rocketry to get there, etc.

          Musk has even considered the necessity of boring into Mars to create a safe underground living space for humans (the Boring company).

          This is a man that essentially is responsible (as much as anyone) for the new Digital Wallet era, the Electric Vehicle era, the Reusable Rocket era, advancing Solar Power and Battery technology, Satellite technology, and Artificial Intelligence.

          As I said, he is Humanities only hope of achieving this in the next 20 years or more.  The chances of a government today, especially the American government, uniting to achieve this, to fund this, without politics, regulations and bureaucracy sabotaging its goals is highly improbable.

          1. Credence2 profile image78
            Credence2posted 18 months agoin reply to this

            I always have a problem with private sector visionaries as the next step will be that they will claim the Planet Mars as their own private property, with lots for sale.

            1. GA Anderson profile image89
              GA Andersonposted 18 months agoin reply to this

              Continuing the Musk speculation . . .

              My perception is that most space experts and visionaries say the moon must be our next space exploration step, primarily because of the reduced costs of space launches. (low gravity and stuff)

              What if the popular perception that Musk and his companies have Mars as their goal is a ruse? What if his real primary goal is to establish inhabitable launch facilities on the moon? If his companies did become involved in NASA's Artimus-type projects he would be seen as a benevolent rich guy helping America.

              I think that if the Moon had been the stated goal of his years-long efforts to build the necessary technologies and companies the public and governments of the world might be a little more concerned.

              What if Musk's machines made it to the moon to do government contract work, who could tell him he couldn't do any 'side projects' of his own?

              What if he did the government work and then built himself a few tunnels and claimed squatter's rights? What would be the tool to stop him?

              Your paranoia might be right this time. The world's richest white man might be an evil schemer too. ;-)

              GA

              1. Ken Burgess profile image76
                Ken Burgessposted 18 months agoin reply to this

                Musk doesn't want anything to do with the Moon, unless it helps him get to Mars faster, which last I recall it being mentioned, according to Musk it does not, its just a waste of time, effort and materials.

                Musk wants humanity to become a two planet species. 

                Entirely understandable, as it stands now if anything happens to this planet humanity goes extinct. 

                Going to the moon doesn't solve that problem.

                Going to Mars, there is a plausible possibility that it could sustain life, and potentially with much effort become a second home to humanity.

                Musk wants to die on Mars, his true plans are to take himself and some of the best and brightest minds to Mars, along with EVs and Robots and a very capable AI and make a colony there that can sustain itself without resupplies from Earth.

                Rockets need to be able to travel there and back again, I believe he feels up to a thousand trips will be required to get the resources needed to the planets surface.

                I believe the initial flights to Mars will be to release satellites into Mars' orbit, next phase will be unmanned, Robots, Drones, Vehicles and supplies being sent.

                Musk knows his window is around 20 years to get all this done.

                Then the next phase will actually be humans, himself included, traveling to Mars.

                1. Credence2 profile image78
                  Credence2posted 18 months agoin reply to this

                  Musk is a visionary, it is a tremendous reach to speak of any realistic Domicile beyond the Earth for massive habitation in my opinion. If such is ever determined to be possible, it won't be in the foreseeable future.

                  Mars, in reality, is almost as inhabitable as the moon.

                  Who do you think would be really willing to die on Mars? How many others are willing to commit to what has to be spartan conditions for the remainder of their lives? I am willing to bet you that he does not actually have the ability to go to Mars and sustain himself  within his own lifetime. That is my bet. Seeing is believing.

                  A thousand trips? I guess that he has already figured the cost per pound of putting anything in Earth orbit. Even over 20 years with a potential lunar launch point, a thousand spacecraft and a thousand trips to Mars stretches credibility.

                  1. Ken Burgess profile image76
                    Ken Burgessposted 18 months agoin reply to this

                    That's why I have tremendous respect for Musk.

                    Your opinion is a common one, always finding reasons or belief as to why something can't be done.

                    Musk has dealt with that all his life, he couldn't build a private Rocket company, he couldn't recycle those rockets, he couldn't create his own satellite network and make internet possible the world over.

                    Musk couldn't build a car company to compete with Legacy Auto or the Japanese, Musk couldn't make EVs work for everyday use, and Musk can't go to Mars.



                    I would, many would, what an incredible honor it would be, to be considered for such a mission, to take a step for all humanity to another planet.

                    What do people live for?

                    What purpose do they serve?

                    To be able to be part of something so important to all humanity, I can think of nothing else more honorable and more worthy of devoting my remaining years to.

                    You are correct, most wouldn't be willing to do that. 

                    Only the best, the brightest, the most selfless, the ones that can see beyond their own petty wants and needs to the bigger picture.

              2. Credence2 profile image78
                Credence2posted 18 months agoin reply to this

                It makes a lot of sense that the moon would and should be the next logical steps as spacecraft can be built there and launched from there with considerably less energy required.

                If he is involved in a ruse already, he and his intentions cannot be trusted. Yes, he is a good guy committed to service until he takes over.

                Celestial bodies, as a whole, should not be "owned" by anyone, no more than the Antarctic continent. The capitalist would put a private property sign on the sun if it didn't melt first.

                Yes, he, Musk, it certainly free to do whatever projects he wishes, but the Moon belongs to collective humanity not just one man.

                These people are often times cut from the same cloth as the Rockefellers, Carnegies wanting to take it all, totally inappropriate for this century and its objectives. But, Providing some relatively charitable tidbits in return.

            2. Ken Burgess profile image76
              Ken Burgessposted 18 months agoin reply to this

              What's wrong with that?

              If he and his companies invent what is needed and get to Mars, why should anyone else have a right to it?

              1. Credence2 profile image78
                Credence2posted 18 months agoin reply to this

                The moon nor, nor any other celestial body in the heavens can ever be the private property of any one man or company.

                1. wilderness profile image94
                  wildernessposted 18 months agoin reply to this

                  Why not?  What is the reasoning that no man or company should own land?

                  What if that "celestial body" is a small asteroid?  How about a tiny moon?  Where would YOU draw the line, and how do you justify that line?

                  1. Credence2 profile image78
                    Credence2posted 18 months agoin reply to this

                    Would you accept a single man owning the entire earth, Mars or Venus? I am speaking primarily about planets and moons, not a clump of boulders in space

                    I guess since the US was the first to plant its flag on the lunar surface, we can claim it all as American territory?

                2. Readmikenow profile image95
                  Readmikenowposted 18 months agoin reply to this

                  Cred,

                  I agree with you 100%.

                  I had a law course on property once.  The professor said, "How many people here believe they own land?"

                  After a few people raised their hands, he said "What does history show us about the land that you think you own?  The land you believe you own has been thought of as the property of ancient peoples, modern people and will have ownership claimed over it by people in the future.

                  Do you really own it? He asked.

                  Then he explained how land ownership is determined by having a country with a military strong enough to take it and defend it.  Should that not be the case, the land you think you own will be then taken over and thought of as owned by another country.

                  So, do you really own land?

                  The answer is you have the illusion of owning land because a government is able to defend and is in a position to determine laws and regulations associated with providing the illusion of owning land.  If you don't believe me, try not paying your taxes, the government will come and take your illusionary land ownership.  Try and go against an ordinance or local or federal law associated with the land.  The government will take your illusionary land ownership because it can.  If the government needs your land for something better, and they have the military to defend it, they have the resources to take it from you.  This is something that has happened for thousands of years.  This is something that has been done since people formed functional governments."

                  So, it will be the same with Mars.  It will go to the nation or government that is able to take it and defend it.  The government will then come in and provide the illusion of land ownership.  It how human beings do things.

                  1. Credence2 profile image78
                    Credence2posted 18 months agoin reply to this

                    Thanks, Mike, I am delighted that we can see eye to on this one.

                    Regardless of the fact that Mr. Musk is worth well over 100 billions, certain ideals and principles are simply not for sale.

                    Primitive thinking lends us to believe that precepts of capitalism would be the primarily impetus for exploration of the Cosmos, a project that belongs to the whole of humanity.

  2. Miebakagh57 profile image69
    Miebakagh57posted 18 months ago

    What advantages has the missions to Mars had for mankind? Is it just testing technology that can harness life on Earth?                                  Hopefully, we know that the Moon is still the labratory of the Earth. Compared to Mars, human being can't habit those two inhuman planet as the Earth. But we do know that the planned missions of human beings colonizing space moon as visitors is yet to be achieved. But why  Mars?                                     Oddly, the Earth has a lot to offer us a living space. We're not yet done with it. That was the vision of  Adolf Hitler...to get more living space here. And that primarily factored the WW 2.

    1. wilderness profile image94
      wildernessposted 18 months agoin reply to this

      Because Mars is the only other planet in our system that mankind has even a chance of surviving on without massive effort forever.  We have changed earth's atmosphere; we can change Mars as well.  And we can change us, too, for that matter; those people living in Tibet could perhaps, in a few generations, live on Mars without much assistance.

      1. Miebakagh57 profile image69
        Miebakagh57posted 18 months agoin reply to this

        Wilderness, tell Elon Musk, to prepared a Big Spaceshhp, that would accomondated one million person including the Tibetans, to transport them to Mars yearly! lol!

      2. Credence2 profile image78
        Credence2posted 18 months agoin reply to this

        The environment on Mars is far closer to that of the moon than that of the Earth, a tenuous atmosphere that cannot support the respiration process, devoid of oxygen, with an atmospheric pressure so low that even if the atmosphere were 100 percent oxygen, it remains to thin to breathe. But, I am certain that you know all of this already. Beyond Earth, every celestial body in this Solar system has been found  wanting in any and all elements necessary to sustain human life.

        Think about this, with the current propulsion technologies the trip is up to 9 months one way. It not like resupply for the space station in near Earth orbit, or even the Moon. To talk about any serious form of space commerce, we are going to have to evolve beyond rockets using chemical propellants. What's on the drawing board? Serious commerce to Mars and through out the solar system will require rockets capable of the use of considerably more energy to acquire shorter transit times. That, just to limit human exposure to radiation, not even to mention the need for shielding over so long a journey. Can Elon Musk meet these challenges? We will see.

        Terraforming remains well within the realm of science fiction. With the current state of technology, Elon Musk or otherwise, to change the environment of Mars substantially would take centuries at a minimum. Elon Musk is operating at the limits of our technical capabilities today and while he may expand that envelope somewhat, the challenges are daunting the results of which I that doubt we will see soon.

    2. Credence2 profile image78
      Credence2posted 18 months agoin reply to this

      Exploration and curiosity remains one of the few redeeming traits of mankind. Mars over the moon is somewhat more terrestial, but not by much. What advantages Mars may have is neutralized by its far greater distance.

      Any serious talk about colonizing another planet is also science fiction. It would behoove us to take greater care of this planet as the cradle of life. 

      The is great deal to learn from the vantage point of science that would more than justify the journey, but rendering a liveable environment for a large number of colonists? I have to wonder.

      1. Miebakagh57 profile image69
        Miebakagh57posted 18 months agoin reply to this

        Credence, you wondering? It's a little matter.                                     While I was an undergraduate at the university, professors usually sieze the occasion and ask you to research.

 
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