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Things I Don't Understand About Abortion

Updated on June 9, 2011
Cari Jean profile image

Cari Jean is a freelance writer and author. Her inspiring memoir, "Having Faith" is available on Amazon. She resides in North Dakota.

October 4, 2009 marked Respect for Life Sunday for the Catholic Church. Although I am not Catholic, I am a Christian. And as a Christian I believe I am to respect all life. ALL life includes unborn babies.

So it was on this particular day, Respect for Life Sunday, that my husband and I were watching an old episode of ER. The episode was called May Day and was the last episode of Season 6. A college-aged pregnant woman decided that at the 32nd week of her pregnancy she did not want to have the baby. She tried to stab herself in the stomach to kill the baby but she was not successful. The ultra sound showed a healthy baby with a strong heartbeat. But there was something else - her placenta was beginning to abrupt. They told her if she did not have a c-section the baby would die.

She told the doctors she did not want to be cut open. They tried to explain to her that if she didn't have the surgery her baby would die. Again, she refused. There was nothing the doctors could do to save the baby. They simply stood by and watched as the baby's heart rate began to drop. They ended up having to deliver a dead baby.

Something I don't understand is this - it was OK for the woman to allow her baby to die as long as it was inside her womb. But if that same woman had the baby and then decided she didn't want it and she killed the baby that would be murder. She would then be looked upon by society as a horrible mother and everyone would be asking the question, "how could a mother do such a thing to her own baby?"

I don't get it. What's the difference if she decides to kill the baby inside or outside of her womb? Unfortunately, in this country, it is called choice, not murder. And really, what else should we expect in this "it's all about me" culture.

'My Body, My Choice'

Like the above scenario, there are many things I do not understand about abortion. I don't understand the mentality that pro-choice people have. They say, it's a woman's body and she can do whatever she wants with it. But when we see a woman harming herself whether by anorexia, cutting, attempted suicide or other forms of self-inflicted abuse, we do not understand why she is doing that to herself. Those around her try to get her help and those in the healthcare system do what they can to help her. Is it not her choice to do these things to herself? Why don't we just let her? Her choice to do this to herself becomes irrelevant. Sometimes the woman can't be helped in which case she might end up dying. And then all of those people who tried to help her, mourn her loss and think about what a senseless loss it was.

Why don't we as family, as healthcare workers, as society, feel that way when a woman is pregnant and she chooses to abort her baby? Why does choice become so relevant, especially when the choice to abort her baby is not a healthy one.

Another thing I don't understand is that many clinics do not tell her about the possible implications this abortion could have on her life. When someone goes in for surgery the patient is always told about the risks of the procedure. Sometimes these risks include experiencing depression. If an abortion is a type of surgery then why are they not informed of the risks beforehand? (Thankfully, there have been laws passed in some states where the woman must be informed and an ultrasound is required).

When Does Life Begin

Then we have the ongoing debate about when life begins. No matter how much scientific research supports the fact that life begins at conception, there will always be pro-choice lawmakers and healthcare workers telling us that in the early stages, the baby is really just a glob of cells or pregnancy tissue. The only reason they try to keep this lie alive is to diffuse the scientific evidence that at:

  • Four days: The sex of the zygote can be determined by using a microscope
  • One week: The zygote begins to contain all major body structures
  • Three weeks: Fetal circulation begins
  • Five weeks: All basic body systems including the brain and nervous system are developing which enables the fetus to feel pain
  • Eight weeks: The zygote becomes a fetus
  • Twelve weeks: The fetus begins to grow tooth buds, nail beds, and genitals
  • Thirteen-Sixteen weeks: The arms and legs are completely formed and the skeletal system shows up on x-ray
  • Twenty weeks: The baby has eyebrows, sucks its thumb and holds its own umbilical cord
  • Twenty three weeks: some micro-preemies have been known to live outside the mother's womb with the survival rate of micro-preemies increasing every year

 

the cry of an unborn baby about to be aborted
the cry of an unborn baby about to be aborted

It's Our Fault

 Something pro-choicers and left-wing liberals try to blame the pro-lifers for is that we cause violence. When Dr. Tiller, the late-term abortion doctor from Kansas who was gunned down and killed in church, the pro-life community was blamed.

There are extremists in every group. This includes pro-life extremists who for reasons I cannot understand think it's OK to kill someone who is killing others. We are not supposed to repay evil with evil. This act was unacceptable to the majority of the pro-life community. But I don't think that by protesting in front of abortion clinics we are causing people to go out and kill the abortionist. Pro-life people have a right to stand up for what they believe is moral and what is truth. There are extremists, but we do not condone them.

My Confession

I must confess that I have not always been pro-life. Due to the heart condition I was born with, my cardiologists warned me about becoming pregnant. I felt that abortion had to be legal in order to protect women like me who if they got pregnant it would become life-threatening. It was in my later years of high school that I formed this opinion. Even though I grew up in the church and claimed to be a Christian I still held the mentality that if I ever did get pregnant I could just have an abortion. I know this was a totally irresponsible way of thinking and unfortunately that mentality persists throughout our culture today.

So what made me change my mind that abortion was wrong? Simple. Jesus got a hold of my heart and I became a firm believer in the Word of God. The Word that says we are made in the image of God, that He knit each of us together in our mother's womb and that HE is the giver of LIFE.

50 Million Babies

 It grieves my heart that there have been nearly 50 million babies aborted since Roe v Wade. It grieves me that there are those who find the act of abortion totally acceptable. Unfortunately, I am not optimistic about Roe v Wade being overturned, especially in light our current President's beliefs and the increase in disrespect for life. However, just as my heart was changed, I believe God can change the hearts of others. He is no respecter of persons. Also, I do believe that laws such as a woman having to see her baby via ultrasound and parental consent laws are a very good thing.

Please know that if you are reading this and have had an abortion, I do not judge or condemn you. I simply feel sad for you for what you have gone through. I pray you will find healing.

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    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 4 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Amadeus - thank you for your comment. And no I do not think she should have been forced to go thru with the c-section but there should be legal consequences for purposefully killing a completely viable baby who happens to still be in the womb.

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      Amadeus 4 years ago

      In the case of the ER episode, it's rather simple. She has a right to not be CUT OPEN without consenting to the procedure. I frankly think it was a horrible thing for her to do and I stop being pro-choice once the fetus is viable, but abortion is a far cry from refusing a forced c-section. I hope you aren't suggesting that they should have tied her down and split her open in the United States of America.

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      Cari Jean 6 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      alwayzzcitra - very well stated. Thank you so much for your comment.

    • alwayzzcitra profile image

      alwayzzcitra 6 years ago from Palembang, Indonesia

      The women's choices is actually to use birth control or not.

      It's not to abort or not.

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Pollyannalana - thanks for your comment and for sharing a part of your life. I agree that the government encourages it - by not only handing out birth control but then by saying the minor does not need parental consent before having an abortion.

      People do not understand the emotional and physical consequences of having an abortion. Especially with family planning clinic encouraging the woman to have the abortion and not telling them about all of the negative consequences. I don't understand these people who are so ready, willing and able to kill a little baby inside the womb.

      I also agree in rape cases the baby should not be aborted - it's not the baby's fault. Why repay evil for evil?

    • Pollyannalana profile image

      Pollyannalana 7 years ago from US

      It is our government encouraging it too, you could have a young daughter given birth control without your knowledge which of course encourages them to be promiscuous and even having abortions before you would even know if ever or have a chance to discuss what would be the right thing to do. To many it is simply another form of birth control and I have read of many who have had this done could not carry a baby or even conceive when they come to the age to seriously understand the consequences abortion can cause other than the fact you have killed a living being. I will say right out after having so much pain with my first baby I was devastated to end up pregnant again three and a half months later, but I still after so many years could not guess to feel guilt over sticking a lit cigarette to a woolly worm and killing it. That has stayed on my conscience to never leave me, how I could be so cruel. I even think in rape that baby is half you but if you don't want it give it away. Maybe soon they will be able to just go in and take it at any stage and give it birth from a tube for someone who wants it. Congrats on the 100! Polly

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      JMyste - I wish we could all take the responsibility you have about not conveiving an unwanted child. I get so tired of hearing about women's rights - what about responsibility? I too, in the past would have done it - without a doubt - I'm so glad I was never faced with that though.

      Thank you so much for your comment.

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      JMyste 7 years ago

      I often make the claim, as I did a few hours ago, that no logical arguments are typically made for or against the issue of abortion. I have only an academic interest in the topic, as I know I would never, and will never abort a child, primarily because I will not conceive one that is not wanted. If faced with the decision in the past, I may have done it, though.

      Thank you for restoring my faith in the pro-life argument. It goes far, as I have faith in very few things.

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      May Belleve - thank you for taking the time to explain your point of view. I really don't think that adoption is torturing a child - I believe adopted children may have some feelings of being unwanted but I also believe those feelings can be worked out and it is something they can come to terms with. I totally commend any mom who can give her child away in the hopes of going to a better place than the one she can provide. I think it's one of the most unselfish acts ever. I do believe there is a pro-adoption movement going on with Christians. There are hundreds of Christian organizations that are getting the word out about adoption and trying to make it easier for people to adopt. But I do think you're right that there may need to be more done about getting drug-addicted and FAS babies adopted as well as children with special needs.

      I know there are tough situations where girls become preganant through rape and incest and there are no easy answers. And I know we live in a world that's far from perfect. There are evil things happening everyday and I guess that's where I believe it's best not to repay evil for evil because I do believe that aborting a baby is an evil act. I believe that God provides a way to overcome evil with good and that's why I believe what I do.

    • May Belleve profile image

      May Belleve 7 years ago from The Golden State

      I understand where you are coming from... however, it is coming from a very narrow point of view. I'm not saying these things to be mean, I'm just explaining an opposite point of view:

      I have never had an abortion, and I don't believe I ever would, but everyone in the world isn't me. I believe that first trimester abortions should be allowed for women that really do not wish to be a mother. Having an unwanted child and giving it away is a terrible option too. Why is it that pro-life people don't take on that cause? It's torturing a child, subjecting them to feeling unwanted for the rest of their life.

      How about all pro-life people adopt 10 unwanted children? No, not perfect little babies; let's say you have to adopt crack addicted babies, or fetal alchohol syndrome children. Is it better the drug addicted mother to have sought a first trimester abortion? Or give birth to a child addicted to heroin? I think that's selfish... but that's just me.

      How about young women who have been subjected to incest? Pregnant by their own relative. How about girls that have been raped? How about girls from really abusive households, but aren't old enough to live on their own? Should that girl remain pregnant, beaten every day, then bring a baby home to that fate too?

      All I mean by this is that those that are Pro-Life need to understand that not everybody is living the same life. If everything in the world were peachy keen, white picket fence, loving Mom and Dad, planned pregnancy... I'm sure that there wouldn't be very many abortions. Unfortunately, that isn't the world we live in.

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Lissa Lynn - thank you for your comment. You're right, it's important not to judge but it's important to help girls and women to do the right thing, which according to my beliefs is to always stand for life.

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      FisherKing 7 years ago

      "FisherKing - may I ask you a question? Do you think it is wrong for a man to rape a woman? If you think it is wrong then how do you know that?"

      Yes. Isn't it obvious how I know? I have witnessed, studied, and discussed the enormous emotional trauma suffered by rape victims. I have suffered emotional trauma myself, in various forms, so I can imagine how it feels for them. It is no accident most humans regard violations such as rape as wrong. We are born with a natural sense of morality (it presumably has survival value in the wild) which can be seen as an inherent version of the Golden Rule - do unto others as you would be done by.

      So my position is one of a natural human response combined with the real world experience of other human beings. The key is that it is evidence-based. I try to be objective: in cases where the evidence is counter to my natural disgust response, I go with the evidence.

      Your position on abortion is not evidence-based. It is an emotional response which I would guess partly involves defensiveness towards your premature child. This is natural enough so far, but then you part company with reason.

      A fertilised ovum is absolutely not a human being. It does not have emotions. It does not have memory. It does not have a personality. It does not have *any* attributes that are normally regarded as essential for a human being. It can develop these things during normal gestation, of course, but even then you are on thin ice. Only quite late in pregnancy does the foetus become a viable human being. This is what all the evidence tells us. There is no evidence that an early stage foetus suffers trauma of any kind when aborted. No personality is being extinguished in this process. In addition, many foetuses are born prematurely. If they are too early, there is nothing that can be done to keep them alive. A little later and we might be able to save them, but they are likely to be severely compromised. They simply have not had long enough to "cook" properly, as a friend put it.

      This is what I base my position on. I don't claim to be perfect, nor to have all the answers, but reason is my protection from the darkness and ignorant superstition which has ruled humanity for almost all of history. It is by far our most reliable guide for how to proceed in life.

      On the other hand, your religious claims are simply inconsistent nonsense because, like all religious people, you make up your mind first, and then look for religious justifications afterwards. You say you want us to respect God's plan, but you have no evidence for what that plan is. And you ignore the fact that He apparently planned for a normal pregnancy to be 38 weeks - so that before then the foetus is not yet a person. And you ignore the fact that He apparently plans for some pregnancies to miscarry - so that we should not try to save them (but we do anyway). And you ignore the fact that you do not actually know that He does not plan for some pregnancies to be aborted by humans. And you ignore the fact that if He is the giver and taker of life, you should not have medical insurance. Your belief system is an incoherent and self-serving jumble. What you really mean is that we should ignore all the evidence and base our laws on your personal emotional responses.

      I note that you have not answered any of *my* questions.

    • Lissa Lynn profile image

      Lissa Lynn 7 years ago from upstate NY

      Great hub, Cari Jean. I always used to say I was pro-choice, but when I really stopped and thought about abortion, there was no way I could justify doing that. Now, I try hard not to judge others for their choices but it makes me sad to see the ease with which some women get pregnant and then head to the clinic to get it taken care of. Especially when there are so many couples who can't have children and would willingly adopt a baby.

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      prasetio30 - thank you for reading and for becoming a fan. We all need to come together when it comes to LIFE.

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      HopesMom - I know, some of the comments I read brought tears to my eyes and caused much grief to my heart. We can only pray that these people will have a change of heart.

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Hi-Jinks - Christians have done much to help the poor, the needy, uncared for and unfed people, including children. The Red Cross and Salvation Army are Christian Relief Organizations. There are many other non-profit Christian-based organizations that help those in time of need. The Church steps in during times of disaster - like during Katrina. Where would all of these people be without Christians helping them through such dire circumstances. Unfortantely though we can only do so much because a lot of times it comes down to funding and corruption in countries we try to help. So please don't say that we "Bible beaters" stand by and do nothing.

    • prasetio30 profile image

      prasetio30 7 years ago from malang-indonesia

      I am Muslim, I think all the religion respect about all life. And I really disagree with abortion. it like kill the human softly.

    • Hopesmom profile image

      Hopesmom 7 years ago

      I am not trying to piss off anyone but i think if you donlt want to have baby KEEP YOUR LEGS CLOSED, USE A CONDOM.USE B/C. It is simple as that. I am VERY PRO LIFE. MORAL SIMPLETON-NOT ALL YOUNG MOTHERS ARE IRRESPONSIBLE AS YOU CLAIM IN YOU POST. I AM A SINGLE MOM OF A PREEMIE WHO JUST ABOUT DIED IN UTERO AND IN THE NICU. I WOULD NEVER GET ONE AND IT PAINS ME THAT I TRIED SO HARD TO KEEP MY BABY ALIVE AND THERE ARE PEOPLE JUST THROWING THEM AWAY THAT IS WRONG AND IMMORAL.

    • Hi-Jinks profile image

      Hi-Jinks 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      It is a silly question. It is a woman's choice. Your God and your not helpful advice is not needed or wanted. You and your church lost that moral ground when children are born unwanted, uncared for, unfeed, and unloved; and you the Bible beaters do nothing. Help the situation and don't make it worst.

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      FisherKing - may I ask you a question? Do you think it is wrong for a man to rape a woman? If you think it is wrong then how do you know that?

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Dorsi - thanks so much for your comment and encouraging words. I am so sorry for what you have gone through but I am glad you are able to forgive yourself. Women do need to be more aware of the emotional consequences.

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      mmw20 - I am so sorry what you had to go through but there is a misconception about separation of church and state in our constitution. You can check out this website if you care to:

      www.allabouthistory.org/separation-of-church-and-state.htm

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      mdawson17 - thanks for your encouraging words.

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Pseudonymous - Thank you for your comment. You're right, there are cases where people justify abortion as "after-the-fact birth control." This is very sad and I wish people like this would be more responsible in the first place.

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Disturbia - thank you for reading and for your comment.

      You're right - I should be more sensitive when it comes to women dealing with mental disorders in which something else causes them to do things harmful to their bodies. But correct me if I'm wrong, in most of these cases don't they eventually come to some sort of realization that they need help? If a person is unaware of making terrible choices for themselves I do believe that the healthier people around them should get them the help they need. Then hopefully these women can make a choice for themselves - to get help or not.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Brett Winn - thank you so much for your comment. I don't understand why fathers don't have rights either. They should be held more responsible.

      I can't imagine what is going through a doctor's mind when they perform the more horrific abortions such as partial birth abortion (thank goodness that has been banned) and late-term abortions (which I believe in most states are illegal but there are doctors who are allowed for some reason to still perform them.) Then there are those babies who survive abortions and were thrown into wastebaskets or just left to die. It is just pure evil.

      I do sympathize with women who become pregnant through rape and incest - it is a horrible atrocity. My only hope is that they will find healing through the ability to forgive.

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Cindy Frye - what if we didn't look at it from a religious or spiritual point of view and just decided to choose to respect life. To respect means to hold in esteem or honor - I think healthy people in society try their best to respect one another's lives and really that is all the pro-life people are asking others to do - to respect life inside and outside of the womb. Of course there are some tough circumstances people have to face and I do not wish to pass judgement on any of them. I only want to be a voice for those who have none and I think that is part of respecting life.

    • Cari Jean profile image
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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      DrChi - thank you so much for your comment. I guess another way for me to look at it is that it is more of a spiritual battle like it talks about in Ephesians:

      for our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of eveil in the heavenly realms. Ephesians 6:12

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      FisherKing 7 years ago

      "But there are children who get abused and killed everyday - we simply do not know what their lives will hold for them when they are born and even though they may suffer, I still believe God has some sort of plan for that life."

      Do you not see how full of holes this reasoning is? How do you know what God's plan is for each life? Perhaps his plan for some is that they should be aborted at 24 weeks, rather than sexually abused as children (Nice plan there, God). You can't possibly know that this is not so. Please stop invoking God to explain your position. God's views on this matter are completely unknown, it seems to me.

      I think we all recognise that abortion is a thorny ethical issue, with many contributing factors, and many different potential outcomes and alternatives. That is ultimately why it boils down to a personal choice. Sometimes the best (or least bad) path is obvious, and sometimes not. That choice is enshrined in the law for very good reasons, and it not for you to gainsay what another person might do when faced with that choice. If you insist on invoking God, try respecting the fact that He apparently gave us free will, and let Him be the judge.

      The kind of absolutist position that you adopt is counter-productive, illogical, inconsistent, and unsupportable. I realise that this is a pointless request, as you have decided to pretend that what you personally believe is of much greater significance than any other factor, but please try to be a little more objective.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      elliot.dunn - thank you so much for reading and for your comment. I have become a fan of yours and think you have some great hubs. Keep up the good work!

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      cindyleedavis - yes, there are a lot of comments here and I know it is hard to get through them all.

      WOW! It does sound like there was some divine intervention at the abortion clinic.

      I am so sorry to hear about your aborted granddaughter. I don't think women realize that their decision not only affects them but other family members and others around them as well.

      My daughter was born 2 1/2 months early so some of the comments about premature babies bother me greatly.

      Thank you so much for your comment. I know there are many questions about abortion that we don't understand but in the end I think it is more about respecting life.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      creativeone59 - thank you so much for your encouraging words. We do have to be a voice for those who do not have one. I will have to check out your hubs!

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      mkott - thank you for stopping in and adding your comment. You are right - we do live in a broken world. Because of that, there are people who live in dire circumstances.

      I believe conception is the first stage of life. It is still life, maybe not in human form, but human development has to start somewhere.

      There have also been women who have died during legal abortions. But of course, this fact is never brought up - only when the woman dies from an illegal abortion does it become an issue.

      I hope I have not come across as hateful in this hub or in my comments because I do not agree with Christians who back their words with hate - we are to be motivated by love.

      You're right, I have never been in the position as someone who got pregnant by rape of incest. I do know of women who got pregnant that way and are thankful they still had the baby (a few of those women have posted such comments.) My heart breaks for the young girl who gets raped or is the victim of incest. And I am so sorry to hear about the girl who hung herself and also for what you went through as a result. It is proof that evil in this world does exist.

      I don't know if abortion will ever become illegal, but I do know that knowledge is power and the more a woman knows about the life growing inside her, the better her decision will be.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      mward1125 - yes, it does sound like we are polar opposites! I appreciate you taking the time to read this hub and also all of the comments. I am trying to be respectful of others as I know being rude really doesn't do anyone any good.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      mgoggi - WOW - thank you so much for your comment. Very well said. We are made in the image of God - and that does not begin in the womb. God knew each of us before He knit us together in our mother's womb. It must make him terribly sad (He feels all emotions that we feel) that someone he knew before they were even in their mother's womb never even got a chance to live the life He had purposed for them.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      misty spriggs - thank you for your comment. You asked the question "what if it were your 9 year old daughter who got raped?" I shudder to think of that happening to anyone, especially a very young girl. Honestly, I'm not sure what I would do in that situation. I do know I would have some serious praying to do.

      I am so sorry to hear about your niece and what she suffered through. It sounds to me if she would have made better choices before getting pregnant, she wouldn't have had to decide to abort the baby or not. I understand the rationalization that if she would have had the abortion early your great niece would not have suffered as she did. But there are children who get abused and killed everyday - we simply do not know what their lives will hold for them when they are born and even though they may suffer, I still believe God has some sort of plan for that life. We also have to remember that it is Satan who comes to kill, steal and destroy and Satan does not play fair. Even though your great niece has suffered much God can still redeem her life and make something positive come out of such a dire situation.

      I understand that children do not always get adopted into good families - which I think is very sad. But it is better for them to have a life in the first place because we don't know what that child may be able to overcome despite his or her circumstances. Even children who get adopted into good families still struggle so would it have been better for them to be aborted too?

      It makes me sick also that there are also parents who kill their own children, but to me it's no different whether they are in the womb or out of the womb. Maybe because of the number of abortions in this country we have become numb and no longer have a respect for life.

      As someone who respects life, I don't want to decide for anyone what to do but I do want the unborn to at least have a chance. I don't think that's deciding, I think that's respecting. I do agree that we need to pray for people so that they make "the right choice in THEIR life for THEIR life."

      It sounds like you are a wonderful mother and grandmother and I commend you for overcoming such difficult obstacles.

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      FisherKing 7 years ago

      Cari Jean,

      Ah. I had a feeling this would be your answer. You believe this, you believe that, you believe the other, you BELIEVE whatever it pleases you to believe. But you don't actually KNOW.

      "I believe He is the author of life and death and by putting that authority in the hands of humans, we are playing God."

      So I guess you cancelled all your medical insurance, or is it OK for humans to save lives? Not so long ago, a seriously premature birth would result in the almost immediate death of the baby (and possibly the mother). Should we place them in incubators and save them, or should we respect God's authority in taking the life of the little one, and do nothing? I suspect your position is inconsistent on this. I suspect you believe we should not act to take life, but should act to save life. Is God the author of life and death, or just life? How do you know? You don't. You only believe.

      "Life is god-given and every day the enemy (satan) seeks to kill, steal and destroy life which is what the battle is really all about."

      As I understand it, Satan killed exactly zero people in the Bible, whereas God committed genocide on several occasions, including one notable global inundation. Much evil has been perpetrated in our society by pious individuals, but I'm not aware of any incidents in which Satan was found to be the killer. I rather think Satan has had a bad press. Not difficult when God controls the media.

      Bible literalists are on very shaky ground when it comes to evaluating truth, so I think you should stop asserting that a fertilised ovum is a human being, and let people who know the difference between fact and fiction do the talking.

    • Dorsi profile image

      Dorsi Diaz 7 years ago from The San Francisco Bay Area

      Very well written hub with lots of very good questions asked. Questions that should be asked! I had an abortion at age 15, and still believed for many years that having one was "my right" (even though I had serious emotional damage from the abortion) I now totally believe the opposite, that what I did was a horrible mistake and that I took the life of my own baby (I have forgiven myself but it still hurts) I agree that women need be counseled during pregnancy about the complications of abortion - not only the short term effects but the lifelong ones.

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      mmw20 7 years ago

      I was forced to carry a baby until I went into labor myself even though my baby was brain dead. Church and state...there is a separation for a reason. By the arguments on this particular post you should be able to see why!

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      mdawson17 7 years ago

      This hub speakes very strongly! I commend you for writing such a great hub! Let the truth be known!!!

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      Cindy Frye 7 years ago

      This is directed to BRETT WINN:

      I have to call you on something. You wrote:

      "If you are a victim of incest or rape, that is a crime and the perpetrator should be punished, but not the unborn child. The child IS a child, and is innocent of the crime. Be unselfish enough to give the baby life, and THEN put him or her up for adoption if you don't want that reminder in your life".

      With all due respect...unless you've had this experience, you shouldn't make that judgement. You call it selfish to terminate a pregnancy caused by rape, but have you lived through the profound violation of having some degenerate throw you onto a pile of rocks, punch you in the face, rip half of your hair out of your head and rip your pants off, jump ontop of you, force himself into your body in several different vile ways with various objects, including himself, while he tells you to "just wait till I'm done. I'm gonna cut your f****** face off your head and piss on your skull. Now shut the f*** up 'cause I'm f****** comin'...feels good, don't it?" Now, imagine that scenario ending with this scumbag grunting and spitting on your face laughing, telling you that he's got "the AIDS", and "welcome to the club, b****". Imagine still, the terror you might feel when he finishes and now you believe that your face is about to be cut off but he tells you "don't worry, I ain't gonna kill you. You got 'the AIDS' now though. What the f*** you think of that?" Then he kicks you 3 times in the ribs and tells you, "thanks, I hope you had as much fun as I did" and he walks off, smoking the requisite cigarette, leaving you laying in a puddle of your own blood and 3 of your teeth laying next to your head.

      Let's not overlook the fact that the VAST majority of rapists are never caught and continue violating women for years and years with absolutely NO remorse or concern for the consequences. Do you REALLY want to call someone SELFISH for not wanting to experience the "joy" of THAT pregnancy???

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      Pseudonymous 7 years ago

      Great hub and I agree with most of your points. Too often the most extreme cases are used to justify abortion as a form of after-the-fact 'birth control.'

    • Disturbia profile image

      Disturbia 7 years ago

      Nothing sparks a good debate like the topic of abortion. I found your hub and all the comments very interesting and I can’t imagine adding anything more to the abortion debate. However, I read something in your hub which, for very personal reasons, disturbed me. I’d like to address this because I can see by your comments that you truly do not understand the issue.

      Under the heading of “My Body, My Choice” you say you don’t understand the mentality of pro-choice people who say that a woman’s body is her own to do whatever she want with, then you give examples of anorexia, cutting, and attempted suicide to make your case. With all due respect, what you clearly do not understand has nothing to do with pro-choice mentality. You apparently do not understand the fundamental difference between a decision made by a mentally competent woman and the symptoms relating to psychological disorders and mental illness. You are comparing apples to oranges.

      You pose the question “Is it not her choice to do these things to herself?” No, it is not her choice. A woman can chose to do any number of things to her body. She can choose to wear contact lenses in place of glasses. She can choose to color her hair or to have breast augmentation. But a woman does not choose to have anorexia. She does not choose the compulsive behaviors of cutting or self-mutilation. And she does not choose to have depression so deep that suicide seems the only way out. These behaviors relate to disorders and are treatable with therapy and medications.

      Women making choices about whether or not they want to use their bodies to have children do not need intervention or treatment. Their decisions about their reproductive rights must be left to their own judgment and conscience. The outcome of that decision whatever it may be is nobody else’s business. No one owns an explanation to anyone else about such a personal decision.

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      Brett Winn 7 years ago from US

      I did not have time to read all the comments, so forgive me if I repeat what others have said. You wrote a wonderful hub. I hear you about how the woman can abort the "fetus" but not kill the baby. How about the doctor who delivers all of the baby but the head, sticks scissors into the back of the head, sucks out the brains and THEN delivers the baby? How is that not murder? Can you imagine what it must be like to BE that person with all that blood literally on your hands and heart?

      I also don't understand why the father has no rights. He will be responsible to support the baby if it is born, but he has no say in whether it is born. This is a tragedy.

      I am pro-life even in cases of rape and incest. If you are a victim of incest or rape, that is a crime and the perpetrator should be punished, but not the unborn child. The child IS a child, and is innocent of the crime. Be unselfish enough to give the baby life, and THEN put him or her up for adoption if you don't want that reminder in your life. Bad things happen. It's a fallen world. Two wrongs don't make a right. Do the right thing. Make it better. You will never regret doing so in the years to come.

      Thanks for writing, I enjoyed it.

    • Cindy Frye profile image

      Cindy Frye 7 years ago

      Cari Jean (and others),

      I certainly respect your right to your opinions, but those of you who cite "God" and religious reasons for not agreeing that women should have the right to choose, forget something...not everyone believes in "God". Therefore, that's a moot point for some.

      I'm one of the "non-believers". I'm solidly pro-choice. I've also been directly affected by the controversy of whether or not a woman should be allowed to get an abortion in cases of rape or incest. Let me say that unless you've been through this, please DO NOT judge someone who has and DO NOT believe for a second that you're qualified to make the call. NO ONE other than the woman involved has that right. From the viewpoint of the woman who was attacked as well as the viewpoint of the child who's had to grow up with the knowledge of how they came about, the reprecussions of this decision are lifelong, regardless of whether or not a woman chooses to terminate the pregnancy. Too many people who use religion as their reason for being pro-life have absolutely NO idea what they're talking about when it comes this and have NO business piping in on this decision unless it's THEIR experience.

      That being said, I certainly don't think that abortion should be a decision entered into lightly. It shouldn't be a method of birth control (which, for some people it basically is) nor, in my own opinion, should a partial-birth abortion be legal. If a baby is viable outside the womb, the situation gets more complicated. I don't understand why a woman would carry that long and then decide it's not what she wants and off to the clinic she goes.

      Clearly this is an profoundly sensitive and complicated topic and I doubt there will ever be a "right" answer. I just know that religion is being force-fed to non-believers in EVERY social and moral topic and that's got to stop.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      rmcrayne - thank you for stopping in and posting a comment. I am amazed at what has been stirred up and I hope it is causing some people to see things a little differently. I know it has caused me to think again about some things I believe. For the most part it has been a good, healthy discussion - I just wish I had more time to respond to the comments in a more timely manner.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      ashleyz1 - thank you so much for your comment. I agree that using abortions as birth control is very disturbing and I think there should be more done to help women like this.

      I still believe that no matter how early the woman has an abortion it will still be hard for her emotionally, I know of many women who have had miscarriages in their first months of pregancy and they are still affected by it years later.

      Thank you for stating that I am "intelligently putting my opinions out there" - it is not my intention to tell the other side they are wrong, but it is my intention to maybe help people see the pro-life view a little differently.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      MikeNV - thank you for reading and for your comment. I understand that Christians think they are right and Muslims think they are right but what if we don't view it in terms of what we believe to be true, what if we agree to all have a healthy respect for life?

      I don't know if God necessarily fixes our mistakes for us because He still allows us to suffer the consequences. What He does do, however, is take a horrible situation and make something good come out of it.

      I think the answer in these African countries is education, but if they are still having sexual relations I do believe they should be allowed to use contraception especially in light of the AIDS epidemic.

      By standing for life, I don't think I'm taking on the worries of others, I'm simply trying to be a voice for the voiceless - which includes the unborn. We need to make stands for what we believe. I think this would be a better place if we weren't so caught up in the "it's all about me" mentality but instead reach out and help those in need.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Rob Noneman - If you read my other responses to some of the comments you made you will find that I am against capital punishment. No matter what the crime, I don't think it should be up to the law to decide if that criminal lives or dies. Ultimately this kind of decision should only be up to God.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Lapis Lazuli - you make some good points in your comment, like it takes 26 years for the human brain to be developed. I see what you are saying about cancer and obesity and I do think we, especially Americans need to take better care of our bodies - but that is the choice we have - to live a healthy lifestyle or not which makes it different than abortion because the fetus/baby has no choice in the matter.

      I am so sorry what you went through as a teenager. I hope you have found healing for such a traumatic situation. It is sad that a pregnant teenager has to worry about causing shame to so many people, I think the church needs to be more understanding and accepting of these situations.

      It breaks my heart what happens in China. Reality is though that just as many babies are aborted each year in this country as in China, although here, thank goodness women are not forced to have abortions.

      Yes, I have a special needs child and I appreciate your suggestion about the Mozart music. My mother-in-law has said the same thing. I admire you greatly for overcoming your disability and going on to finish college - you are a very strong and brave person and I can only pray for the same result for my daughter.

      Thank you again for your comment and for your insight.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Epleeba1 - thank you for your comment. I agree that advice, instruction and options should all be available. I also agree that everything possible should be done to explain to the mother what exactly is going to happen and allow her to see her fetus/baby via ultrasound first.

      For me, it's not a matter of forcing my beliefs on someone it's a simple matter of respecting life - imagine what a different world this would be if we all had a respect for life.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Jorge - thank you for reading and for your comment. I agree - we shouldn't pretend we have authority we don't have which is why I don't think we should decide when and if it's ok for a life to end. I agree also that God can handle the judgement part of it, just as He will handle the forgiveness and healing as well.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      jenna - thank you for your comment. So what happens in the future when a 22-week old baby is able to survive outside of the womb? We have come a long way in the field of neonatology and babies are able to survive at younger and younger gestational ages. That's why I believe abortion should be illegal during all stages of life. You say the fetus is the potential for life but I believe it to be life - when it is growing and developing in the womb it's still life, just at different stages.

      I agree that a woman who decides to not carry a fetus full term is not mentally or emotionally stable (although they could be) but by having an abortion they could cause harm to their bodies and end up with depression which is what I believe they should be protected from.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Freedoms Guardian - thank you so much for your comment and your encouraging words. I checked out some of your hubs - very impressive and am becoming a fan of yours as well.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Hi-Jinks - not sure if you are the same person as Hi Jinks. My style of pro-life does not include crazies to murder. These are extremists as I mentioned in the article and we do not condone their actions. Yes, we must try to help single mothers but we must also try to educate and create awareness which takes money to do.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      My Child - First of all I am so sorry for what you went through and I really admire your strength and being steadfast by still having the child. I agree with you 100% in your comment to Hi Jinks. Thank you for reading and thank you so much for your comment.

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      DrChi 7 years ago

      Dear Cari Jean - I read your hub and I applaud you on your achievements both ethical & spiritual. There were several issues, that you mentioned in reference to your inability to understand and obviously you still wrestle with how any one individual could justify such matters of ethics that you perceive as so morally unacceptable. In an attempt to answer such matters of perception & ethics I will say this... I have had certain revelations in truth and understanding in my life. It is the understanding that my role that I shall play in this lifetime is a role to encourage our collective humanity here on earth so that our purpose as a people may be revealed to us through the unification of all mankind. It is only through the fragmentation of our society that we as individuals become confused. The same is true concerning the matters of abortion and why some choose to perform it. You must realize that abortion is nothing but a medical tool. And like any tool its use can constitute both good & evil purposes. It merely comes down to a point of why people perform violence with any tool or practice. And it comes to a point of understanding that all people's misconceptions and poor ethics are a direct expression of this very fragmentation. And, in the light that all life is sacred and that its diversity should be preserved, it is the purpose of life that we embark on a journey which will allow its discovery and expression in a state of absolute oneness. And by embarking on such journey these matters of confusion will become clear to you. There is good in all people, it is merely the fragmentation that they experience from our present day society which has misguided them from such goodness. Jesus, too, spoke of oneness and it was his understanding of this oneness on both secular & spiritual matters which constituted his perception of all things, good & evil.

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      elliot.dunn 7 years ago

      ms. jean - you made an excellent point about self-mutilation: if the idea is that a woman can do whatever she wants with her body, starving herself, cutting herself, etc should all be not only allowed and socially respected but legally protected. seriously an amazing point. thanks again.

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      cindyleedavis 7 years ago from cindyloudavis@hotmail.com

      Cari Jean, there are so many responses to your hub topic.

      I don't have time now to read them all. Abortion has many issues on both sides. Yes, I believe that life starts at conception. I have not had a abortion but I did spend an hour once in a clinic planning on getting on. I took a pregnancy test there in the office with the nurse, and inside I was excited...then she had to draw blood. She had to do it twice and still could not get blood out.

      When it was time to climb onto the bed, I saw a jar with a metal lid on it. All I saw was a baby torn apart inside that glass jar. The nurse came after me one more time for the blood test, when she came in to the room, i was in tears. I couldn't go through with it. I got my money back and left.

      I know that the nurse did what she did on purpose.

      And I know that God was there intervening.

      In the last two years, I have lost a grand daughter to an abortion. When I found out, i cried for along time.

      The baby was old enough to live outside the womb.

      I want to comment about the person who talked about

      premature babies. I want you to know that I was premature.

      I was born three months early. I didn't have physical problems, I did have some learning issues when I was little

      but nothing that stopped me from living my life and growing up. Thank God for incubators! Abortion is a very difficult thing to think about, to have to choose either way, for whatever the reason. And I am sure that there are critics on both sides of the table.

      Life is life. And God creates life. That is the bottom line.

      Keep it or not you are making a choice. Disrepect and low self-esteem, vices like alcohol, weed, etc. change your jugdement. Not using birthcontrol is stupid. That is why it is available. Education in very important. Know the facts.

      Then you can make the best choice.

      Thank you for your hub. There are questions about abortion that many of us don't understand.

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      benny Faye Douglass 7 years ago from Gold Canyon, Arizona

      Amen and Amen, Cari Jean we're on the same page, if you visit my hubs you find that we have at least the pro life hubs in common. The babies cannot speak for themselves and someone has to care whether they live or die. and all we 're doing is showing that we care. thank you for sharing. creativeone59

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Hi again FisherKing. I know with absolute certainty that by following the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ I am following truth. I believe God created this universe, I blieve He created Adam and Eve, I believe all accounts in the Old Testament are true. I believe the Old Testament contained many prophecies which came true in the New Testament. I believe there is evidience that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose three days later. What other leader of any religion can claim to have life after death? What other leader claimed to be the truth? Jesus said He is the way the truth adn the life. No other religious figure makes these claims. That is why I believe what I believe and because of these beliefs I know that we are made in the image of God. I believe that God knew us before he formed us in the womb. I believe he has a purpose for each life He creates. I believe He is the author of life and death and by putting that authority in the hands of humans, we are playing God. I will live my life but I will also speak up for others who cannot speak for themselves, as this is what the Bible commands of me.

      I value life - in all of its forms and all of its stages. Life is god-given and every day the enemy (satan) seeks to kill, steal and destroy life which is what the battle is really all about. It is sad when one has to suffer while living life but I still don't think it can be up to us to determine when that life ends.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      mike - do you know this for a fact, if so where did you get this info? Regardless of whether it's true or not even though we know the atrocities of Adolf Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmers, their mothers did not know what their sons would become - none of us do but no matter what choosing life is a better alternative than abortion. There is an evil force in this world, which I believe both men were influenced by. We are simply repaying evil with evil if we think abortion is the answer.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      KellyEngaldo - thanks so much for your comment and for your encouraging words. I am not sure if I am brave or just a little naive?! I thought I might get some feedback from the article, but not this much!

      I am curious to know what type of heart condition you have.

      I like the term respect life as well. I think the term pro-life was brought about in an answer to pro-choice, which was thought up by an advertising agency. But I do agree - we need to respect life in ALL of its stages.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Tonymac04 - thanks for reading and for your comment.

      1. It is documented that in 1972 - the year before abortion became illegal in the U.S. 39 women died from illegal abortions. Throughout the world the reason many women die is because of lack of healthcare and education. I think in third-world countries we should focus more on education and less on abortion - legal or not.

      2. I think society has come a long way into accepting these 'illegitimate' children you talk about. Many, many children have been able to overcome this label and have gone on to do great things. Why wouldn't a mother want to give her child that opportunity? Children in general have a tough time if they are perceived different in any way. Does this mean we should stop having children because they might be labeled?

      3. In a debate I had once had with a friend of mine, the topic of overpopulation was brought up. I told my friend to send the people to North Dakota. We only have 600,000 people in our state and we could use more! I don't think abortion is the answer to help control the population. In countries where this is a problem, there needs to be proper development such as clean water systems and basic health care. My problem with sex ed in the school is that I don't think it has to happen in 4th and 5th grades.

      4. Again, instead of trying to limit population growth, why not opt for better infrastructure and basic health care to provide for the population.

      5. When say war is killing actual, not potential life - I think the fetus is actual life. I do struggle with the issue of war as I see it as a means of protecting our country and I believe we would not have the freedoms we have without our troops fighting for those freedoms. I do not like the fact that innocent people are killed.

      I do not support capital punishment and I myself do not understand how pro-lifers can support it. No matter what crime committed, I still believe it should be up to God to determine whether a man lives or dies.

      I agree with you that we need to look more deeply at the things that drive women to want abortions and try to rectify those.

      I am beginning to see that pro-lifers may need to fight their battle a little differently. Some pro-life people are so focused on aboloshing roe v wade that they ignore ways to help decrease the number of abortions.

      It saddens me that so many women have died trying to abort their babies. I do believe that more education would be better than legalizing abortions.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Hi Jinks - I am aware that ER is fiction but the reason I began this article with this scene is because it is what inspired me to write it and it is reality this type of mindset exists. IF a baby is in the womb at 32 weeks and is killed it is considred abortion, out of the womb it is considered murder. That to me, does not make sense.

      I know there are women who die during labor - I am not opposed to aborting the fetus to save a mother's life. But, there are also women who die during legal abortions - about 400 a year.

      When the man leaves the pregnant woman or there is no money to support the child, might I suggest giving the baby up for adoption instead - problem solved.

      There are many people I know of, both pro-life and pro-choice who help out single women. There are also churches, counseling centers and other support groups these women can turn to for help.

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      Michele 7 years ago from Reno, Nevada

      I am Pro-Choice but hope that a woman is in the position to be Pro-Life. In an all perfect world there would be no need for abortion. The last time I checked it wasn't a perfect world. I have no right to step into someone elses life and dictate to them what I feel is right.

      I do not agree that life begins at conception. Unless you want to get down to the cellullar level of life. If you want to get down to cells yes they are alive but are they life as we know it as human. Someone is considered dead when the brain is no longer a viable living organism but we consider something "life" when the brain has not even formed.

      Abortions will not go away until women are Completely impowered to have children when they want them or not want them. With that in mind illegal abortions have killed many women. Is it okay for women to die in this manner?

      As for those that call themselves Christian/Religous but back their words with hate! Shame on you.

      For those that think a rape or incest victim if pregnant should go through the pregnancy. I will be very bold in saying you have never been in that position and have absolutely no business telling someone to go through with the pregnancy. I used to counsel victims and had a 12 year old girl that was pregnant from incest. Her family gave her no choice, she was to have the child. She hung herself. I cannot tell you or explain the emotion that went through me. I left that line of work and needed counseling afterwards. 25 years later I still think of that beautiful broken girl that no one cared enough to do what was right for her.

      I know this topic is a "hot" one but please remember there is more to life than what is going on in your own personal world. Love and Kindness goes much further than hate. Instead of putting so much effort into make abortion illegal wouldn't it be of better use to make birth control accessible to all, at an affordable price.

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      mward1125 7 years ago from Arizona

      Just finished your hub and all the comments--nice little debate you stirred up! Although I think we're pretty much polar opposites on most matters (I'm pro-choice, gay, agnostic), I did enjoy reading your hub and your responses, especially to people who disagreed with you. I don't agree with your views, and I would imagine you don't agree with a lot of mine, but that's okay. I respect that you have your beliefs, and from your hub, I got the feeling you respect that others have their own. Nice job!

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      mgoggi 7 years ago

      Hello, This is a very interesting topic. I have a comment I would like to share with the group. First of all, the Church does not believe in abortion or anything that will compromise the dignity of the human person. We are created in the image of God--Imago Dei. This term is rooted in Genesis 1:27 where God created man in his own image.

      This passage refers to the fact that man is the image of God in their moral, spiritual and intellectual nature. Thus we mirror God's divinity in our ability to actualize the unique qualities with which they have been endowed, and which make them different than all other creatures: rational structure, complete centeredness, creative freedom, a possibility for self-actualization, and the ability for self-transcendence.

      Any action or act which compromises man ,be it abortion or adultery, also compromises the intent for which man was created. Remember, we were created to walk in fellowship with the creator.To say that humans are in the image of God is to recognize the special qualities of human nature which allow God to be made manifest in humans. In other words, for humans to have the conscious recognition of their being in the image of God means that they are the creature throught whom God's plans and purposes can be made known and actualized; humans, in this way, can be seen as co-creators with God. The moral implications of the doctrine of imago Dei are apparent in the fact that if humans are to love God, then humans must love other humans, as each is an expression of God. The human's likeness to God can also be understood by contrasting it with that which does not image God, i.e., beings who, as far as we know, are without self-consciousness and the capacity for spiritual/ moral reflection and growth.

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      misty spriggs 7 years ago

      Hello, First let me say that this was a wonderful well written piece and I enjoyed it. You did bring up some very good points which I also appreciated, yet I am pro choice. I am pro choice because I believe only an individual can decide what is right for their own life. I also know that their are MANY children in this world that go uncared for, unloved and unwanted. My first question to all of the anti-abortion people I come across is this; what if it were your 9-year-old daughter and she were raped, would that make a difference? For me, it would. My responsibility, my first responsibility is to MY child and there is NO way that I would have my child go through having a child because some evil thing happened to her. I believe in God, maybe not the same as you, or yours; but my higher power would have me to take care of MY child. I believe that my God allows bad things to happen and we don't know why, we are left to deal with these things the best way that WE know how. I don't mean to say that I would not ask for guidance, I would, but our doctor would just about have to drop dead in order for me to make my baby have a baby. I come from a family where there is a history of child abuse. I have a niece who had a child at a very young age and her "husband" beat that child to death. I wanted her to have an abortion. My fundamentalist Christian mother would not hear of it and my very young niece married this much older man whom she should have never been with in the first place. I think that it would have been preferable for the "zygote" to have been aborted before it could "feel" pain than to have my great nieces head bashed into the wall and become brain dead. This is not the only issue. Children having babies they are not prepared to take care of because their parents do not want them to have abortions do not generally make good parents. Adoption CAN be a good alternative, but this is not always true. It is unfortunate that we live in a world that has become so corrupt that I have to say I would not want ANY of my grandchildren adopted out. I could not sleep at night wondering weather or not the people they were adopted by were "really" good people or if they just "looked" good on paper. This is REAL, I am not paranoid, I am familiar with the system more than I care to recall. As for me, I have four children of my own. I am fortunate. I did not remember my own childhood abuse until I was much older. I had a wonderful mother-in-law that played a huge part in teaching me to parent and I took parenting classes. I was the lucky one. I have four siblings that were not so lucky and I watched them all bear children irresponsibly and their children have children and let me tell you...it has not been pretty. I have taught my children that they are not to have children until they are prepared to care for them in every way, though there are many means of contraception and abortion is certainly NOT to be used as a contraception that is disgusting and not at all the message I mean to portray. I am only suggesting that there are way to many unwanted children in this world, they are running around raising their selves and the cycle...unfortunately, continues, as they too reproduce and make children that they are unprepared to take care of. Who will tend to these children? Many of them will be born ill with diseases, addicted to drugs. I am sickened now as I watch the news at the number of parents that are killing their children, their LIVE children, not their fetus, not their zygote, but their children. I wonder if these people WANTED their children or if they were forced or persuaded to have them by someone who thought they knew what was "best" for them. I can't help but get angry when driving down the rode and I see a bunch of people picketing, "STOP ABORTIONS", it may be very wrong for you, for me, and if it is I suggest you don't do it, but who are we to tell ANYONE what they should or should not do for their own lives. It is NOT about their body, it is about their tomorrow, weather or not they can live with their decision, weather they can cope, weather they will pull the trigger, snap, walk over the cliff. I don't think that any of us should take it upon ourselves to make life altering decisions in anyone's lives, all of our God's, yours, mine, whatever you believe; we only get one life to live at least in this life; so make your choices for YOUR life and be happy with it and bless your neighbor and pray they make the right choice in THEIR life for THEIR life...AMEN!

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      rmcrayne 7 years ago from San Antonio Texas

      Wow Cari Jean, your hub has inspired a lively debate, including multiple hub-length comment posts. Lots of good points made. Perhaps that is why this hub was one of the 8 or so featured hubs today (on the opening page to the site before sign in). Just wanted to make sure you knew. Well done.

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      ashleyz1 7 years ago

      I wanted to say thank you for this post! I am very strictly pro-choice 100% but I accept other beliefs and really appreciate anyone who can have a healthy discussion about opposing views without being angry or abrasive about it. I completely agree with you that a woman, at a certain point, has no right to choose abortion. Science is so precise now that we can know of a pregnancy remarkably early so there is no reason for choosing abortion far into the pregnancy. I do believe a woman should be able to make this decision early on though, prior to the heart beating/brain firing signals to the body. I do wish there were some better way to monitor this type of surgery. I have personally met someone who had 4 abortions. Personally, I dont think that should be allowed. This is not something to be used as a birth control method, that is just disturbing.

      Again, thank you for intelligently putting your opinions out there and not treating those with differing opinions as "misinformed" or just plain wrong. I dont know if there is a wrong or right in this. It's a moral decision one has to make as to what they consider life and if they believe that stopping a life from forming is the same thing as taking a life away. There probably wont ever be a right/wrong answer...just a lot of very opinionated statements.

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      MikeNV 7 years ago from Henderson, NV

      When you base your views on Christian Belief you take the side that what you believe is the only truth. So Christians take it upon themselves to enforce their views onto others. The World is not all Christian. In fact a full 25% of the World is Muslim. And they think Christians are totally wrong in the same way Christians think Muslims are wrong.

      If God can do anything then he can fix every single mistake that has been or ever will be made. So let people choose for themselves. When you inflict your views onto other people you are infringing upon their rights.

      The Catholic Church is anti-birth control. To the point where believing Catholics in African countries ripe with an AIDS epidemic are not using condoms because of their beliefs. And Husbands are infecting wives and vice versa with the virus because of their beliefs.

      The issue is an individual one and you need to let people suffer or be rewarded for their own mistakes. There are plenty of things to worry about in ones own life... so it's not necessary to take on the worries of others.

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      Rob Noneman 7 years ago from Huntsville, AL

      I'm curious what your stance is on the death penalty

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      Lapis Lazuli 7 years ago

      It is proven scientifically that it takes 26 years for a human brain to be fully developped. The kids in their twenties are still babies, according to the scientific world. The reason it takes so long to form our brain is because it is so microscopic, it seems endless to our naked eyes. The endless sea of neuropathways in our brain is so intelligent, not one human can understand the complexity of the brain and no human seem to outlive one another.

      The medical world brags of its advanced technology yet all the doctors die in the end. Then we have the religions to inspire us to die, for the sake of another. We do have under our skull the smartest machine of all times. So advanced is our brain, it has the capacity to live for 750 years. And we dare kill fetuses. We dare commit suicide. We dare eat fast food and sugar so we die of cancer.

      What is the difference between cancer and abortion ? Both forms of death are caused internally. Cancer should be just as illegal as abortion. Did you know that the greatest epidemy in the USA is obesity and suicides. Obesity is so nasty, it kills them by the millions.

      Millions of fetuses killed vs millions of grown up humans killed from sugar addictions.

      I was raped as a 16 years old virgin. I grew up very religious and I am still religious to this day. I was raped by a man who did not care if I became pregnant. He had one goal in mind and he achieved it with violence.

      It is a good thing I did not become pregnant otherwise I would have resulted in an abortion, eventhough my religion is against it. As a pregnant teenager, I would have shamed my entire church and family, ruined my life, eventhough I was a victim to sexual abuse.

      Women who use abortion as birth control should be outcast. Women who use abortions as a mean to their emotional, chemical and physical misery, should be allowed.

      In China, women have no choice but to abort. If a Chinese woman is pregnant with a third child, she is required to abort, by law. Too many babies in China, the biggest country in the world.

      Hear me lady, and no offence to your beliefs. Hear what a woman in 2009 has come to realize, out of the injustive of this world. To have a choice to give birth to a healthy baby is the new way in 2009. There are millions of sperms in one ejaculation. Only a priviledged few can make it as a healthy baby.

      I have not read your other blogs/hugs, yet I have a hint by your titles that you have a challenged child under your guidance. Mozart's music will help your child greatly. There is a form of healing done with sound, called Music Therapy. Mozart is one of those composer who understood the infinite depth of the human brain.

      Many books have been written about Mozart's music and the healing of the human brain.

      My mom played Mozart music throughout my entire childhood. She knew I needed a lot of help. I was a child who was outcast because I was not normal according to them.

      Ironically, I am the youngest of five children and the only one who graduated from University. And I was a disabled child who conquered my curses because my brain was rewire correctly with Mozart's Orchestra, under my beloved mother's guidance.

      BTW Greetings from Seattle

      Caroline Couture Taylor

      The biggest crime you will ever commit is the betrayal to your own body. Why will you put an end to your life, don't you have a choice to live for as long as you wish ? You have a choice but a fetus doesn't. Ever wonder why !

      Lapis Lazuli 2009

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      Epleeba1 7 years ago from Deep inside my own dark existence

      Although I believe each person has the right to her own personal choices I cannot see any moral justification for abortion. This should be a personal decision with no other party having a say. Advice and instruction should be available. Options should be provided. Everything possible should be done to explain to the mother how people may feel but the decision should be hers alone. Laws and governments should not dictate this or any other personal decision. Forcing my beliefs on another person is wrong no matter how morally correct my beliefs are. I have the right to express my opinion and to try to educate others in why I believe the way I do but I should not have the right to force any other person to agree with me.

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      Jorge 7 years ago

      I don't think God would want us to make such judgements, he can handle it. If a woman has an abortion, it needs to be right with her, and God. We shouldn't pretend we have authority that we don't have.

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      jenna 7 years ago

      I think an abortion is legal only until mmmm, 24 weeks or so. Part of the reason it is legal until this point is that the fetus is not really a viable life form. It is the potential for life. If a woman gave birth this soon, the baby could not sustain life under ANY circumstances. It is indeed developing, but it is not yet alive. Women who try to commit suicide or have anorexia are not mentally or emotionally stable. So we intervene. A woman who decides not to carry a fetus full term, is not mentally or emotionally unstable necessarily.

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      Freedoms Guardian 7 years ago

      What a powerful article! I am definitely becoming a fan. This is a well written and educated approach to a very emotionally sensitive social issue.

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      Hi-Jinks 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Unfortunately, your style of group spends millions on ads, Protestors at clinics, and crazies to murder.

      Spend the millions for single mothers, lead the protesters to babysit, and banish the murders.

      This is how it works.

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      My Child 7 years ago

      Cari,

      First off I would like to say I have pondered these questions a lot myself. Thank you for having the guts to voice them.

      Second-wow! There are several I'd like to respond to but in the interest of time and space, I'll only respond to a couple.

      I have a child as a result of a violent, almost death causing, rape. I can't even begin to explain all the emotions, rage and heartache but I WILL NEVER have an abortion, I believe it is wrong, period. My child is now a teenager and only knows their father disappeared before they were born. (Since I know nothing about the man, I can't tell them more, nor truthfully, would I)

      Hi Jinks You said:

      "I have yet to find any anti-abortion people that would ever help single mother with babysitting or helping with the finances. And I don't mean throwing ten bucks in the collection plate, but by way of paying the rent, food, medical, and all. But do you know what I hear: "NOT my child." Change this and you change the world."

      I know you don't know me but my husband and I have helped MANY, MANY single moms by opening our home to them as have LOTS of people in our church. I am sorry you have not been privy to the goodness of people; Christian or otherwise. I hope this hasn't been your own personal experience or that of someone close to you.

      As to those who say live your life and let others live theirs-I believe that's what we are doing. Without trying to be sarcastic, you're the ones coming to this hub and posting comments not vice versa.

      I much prefer the words born again believer to Christian as

      that is what I am. I, too, am against "organized" religion and all that's been perpetrated in its name. I believe based on faith, not what someone else says I have to believe. And my faith is what given me strength in the horrible situations of life(Faith is also what allows me to know there is wind, gravity and a multitude of other things also unseen)

      Anyway, that's my two cents worth for whatever it's truly worth. Hope everyone has a nice day and enjoyable weekend.

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      FisherKing 7 years ago

      You don't want a theological debate? I was talking about epistemology. What does it mean to know something? And how do you know when something is true? You value one ancient book above all the billions of alternative sources of information. How do you know it is the best one? You know with absolute certainty, do you, that God does not wish abortions to be legal? I doubt it, and you should doubt it, too. Live your life, and let others live theirs.

      When you say you value life, what does this really mean? I value many things, and human life is one of them, but I do not value it to the exclusion of all other considerations. Should a person with motor neuron disease be allowed to choose when to die, and to get someone to help them, or should they be made to suffer the increasing pain and indignity until the bitter end? Should a woman who has been raped be allowed to choose whether to give birth to her attacker's child? My point is only this: you do not know.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      dejajolie - I am well aware that we are to "hate the sin and not the sinner" so I'm not sure why you brought that up because I'm not talking about hating anyone. I am really sorry you have been hurt in the church. I know that Christains aren't perfect people. For me, I'm not too crazy about man-made organized religion either - I prefer instead to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      FisherKing - I don't really want to get into a theological debate about what I believe to be absolute truth and why I believe that. But because of these beliefs, I have a respect for life - in all of its stages in the womb - not just when the fetus becomes viable.

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      mike 7 years ago

      Jeffry Domers & Adolph Hitlers Mothers both wanted abortions, but it was not available for them

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      KellyEngaldo 7 years ago

      You are brave women to post this. I admire your strength. Much like you I have lived with a heart condition and used to be very much pro-choice. I met a wonderful women who took the time and had the courage to challenge me. And after much conversation and thought and prayer, I am not pro-life. I don't like the term - I prefer respect life - "pro" implies a negative somewhere. Life has no negatives. "Respect for life" is a term that best describes my beliefs. Also, core to my belief is understanding and allowing only God to judge. But it is my responsibility to speak up much like my friend did with me - she took the time, made the effort - like you. I admire you both. Please keep up the great work. God Bless You and Your Family.

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      Tony McGregor 7 years ago from South Africa

      This is an issue on which so much emotion is invested that logic and reason sometimes fly out the window.

      Some facts are

      1. 70000 mothers died of illegal, unsafe abortions last year. They were so desperate not to have the babies that they had conceived that they put their own lives on the line, gave up their own lives to prevent the "potential" lives to come to reality.

      2. Society, and religious people in particular, has a very judgemental attitude towards so-called "illegitimate" children. If you put a label like "illegitimate" onto a child then that child is already condemned and what mother would want to bring a child like that into the world?

      3. The world is already over-populated and we don't actually need any population growth. But again the religious people don't want proper sex education in schools or proper contraceptive measures to be applied. This is quite simply disastrous.

      4. The best way to limit poplutation growth is to promote a just society in which wealth is more equitably distributed. The wealthier people are, the fewer children they have. So spread the wealth around and fewer abortions will be needed.

      5. War is killing. Why don't the so-called pro-lifers come out as strongly against war as they do against abortion? War kills actual, not potential, life. So I would think it is a greater moral evil. As is capital punishment, which most pro-lifers seem to support. Would the person in your picture hold his sign saying "Thou shalt not kill" outside the Pentagon? Or outside the home of the Governor of Texas, when he is signing the death warrant?

      So my point is that we need to apply reason, soberly, to the whole issue of abortion. I am not in favour of abortion as a method of population control, but at the same time we need to look more deeply at the things that drive women to want abortions and try to rectify those, not stop women having control over their own bodies.

      If the pro-lifers would put as much energy into creating a just society as they do into opposing abortion it just might happen the need for abortion will almost disappear. But while there is a need for it women will seek it. 70000 mothers have died for it. Surely they were each an irrepalceable individual with rights also. And one of the rights they should have had was the right to life, which meant, in their cases, the right to a safe abortion.

      Love and peace

      Tony

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      Hi Jinks 7 years ago

      First of all,ER is fiction. Please do your research, in every state of the land and every day a mother dies of child birth. This isn't as bad as it was when one third of all mother die of child birth (1900).

      The two main reasons for abortion is surport and surport. First the man leaves the pregnant woman. Second there is no money or income to help with raising the child.

      Solve these two problems then there might progess.

      I have yet to find any anti-abortion people that would ever help single mother with babysitting or helping with the finances. And I don't mean throwing ten bucks in the collection plate, but by way of paying the rent, food, medical, and all. But do you know what I hear: "NOT my child." Change this and you change the world.

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      dejajolie 7 years ago from New Jersey/New York

      Cari Jean- I believe it's "Hate the sin, not the sinner" Again, we are all man and are privy to our own faults and will have to be judged by HIM and HIM alone, yet Everyone is always concerned about what their neighbor is doing, instead of taking care of their own home.

      P.S Yes I was raised Penecostal, I know scripture-but since I've come to adulthood and able to learn without parental infulence I know that it's not about "organized man-made religion at all" and the reason why I disassociate myself from it is because so-called "Christians" have been some of the most hateful, judgemental people I have ever met.

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      FisherKing 7 years ago

      I have always struggled with faith positions. You have no rational evidence for your beliefs, but are more than ready to inflict them on other people as an act of law, which is contrary to the US constitution. I think you *are* capable of reason, so try this:

      Suppose *my* holy book tells me that abortion is a legitimate activity. Whose God is right? It should be trivially easy to start a new religion like this (though many probably exist already), considering Joseph Smith's success in this area. But it's not necessary to go so far. Check out this: http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/We_affirm.pdf. These churches are officially pro-choice, and their congregations every bit as faithful as yours. What gives?

      When religions differ, how do you know which one truly represents God's word? You don't. I'd say that if God exists, we are presumptuous to claim we actually know what He thinks. You should act according to your personal conscience in your personal life, let others do the same, and let God be the judge. All holy books are written entirely in the words of Man, and much evil has resulted from this.

      My point is that you have no basis for your claim that a zygote has human rights other than your understandable emotional response, your holy book, and the misleading propaganda of the pro-life movement (your 'Help Me' image is a good example of this). Another religious person could come to the opposite view, and you would both claim to be obeying God. What makes you right and them wrong? On the other hand, we do have objective repeatable scientific and medical evidence that an early stage foetus is non-viable. That is a better basis for deciding whether it has any rights.

      As NotAMoralSimpleton points out, your beliefs lead you to defend a legal position in which it is probable that more harm would be done to women and foetuses, rather than less. I just don't see how you rationalise that. Your beliefs are contrary to your stated goals.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      itakins - thank you so much for your encouraging words, they are GREATLY appreciated.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      boggle - I have to admit that I myself have to do more checking into IVF. I don't really understand why some pro-lifers are opposed to it, since like you said, that using those donor eggs incease the chance for life.

      Thanks for your comment.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      Hi again, NotAMoralSimpleton - I read the article and I have to say I agree with Josephine Quintavalle, the anti-abortion Comment on Reproductive Ethics who said that "stopping women falling pregnant in the first place was an area where minds could meet."

      "Abortion - back street or front street - is not the answer. Ensuring women have the means to end their pregnancies is not liberating them - they should be able to make real choices before they fall pregnant in the first place," she said.

      I know you're not going to like this but I still believe it's about more education than more birth control.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      FisherKing - thanks for stopping in. You're right, my claim is based on a Biblical Worldview and is faith-based - you may think this is wrong but I believe it to be truth.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      emdi - thank you for your kind comment, it really meant a lot to me.

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      Cari Jean 7 years ago from Bismarck, ND

      notamoralsimpleton - Due to the following comments you made that put me and Christianity down, I do not wish to respond to your comment.

      "As a religious person, you are incapable of logic or reason...You holier-than-though types make me ill... based upon your somewhat flexible interpretation of the folk history of Bronze Age sheep farmers."

      It is clear we are simply not going to agree. I base my beliefs on a Biblical Worldview, which you do not.

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      itakins 7 years ago from Irl

      Great great hub,Thank you for speaking on behalf of the innocent little victims who cannot speak for themselves.

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      boggle 7 years ago

      A couple go for IVF treatment using donor eggs. Eight eggs are harvested, five are successfully fertilised, two embryos are implanted and three placed in the freezer. The implantation fails. The couple thaw the remainder. One is damaged and the other two are implanted. The implantation fails.

      It seems to me that every single one of those eggs would have been flushed down the toilet if they had not been donated, but that the couple gave all of them a chance to become a living human being. It was unfortunate that they did not succeed, but the truth is that even natural reproduction is touch and go. Many people are infertile. Many eggs fail to become fertilised. Many zygotes are unviable. Many viable zygotes fail to implant. Many pregnancies are spontaneously aborted.

      The intervention of the IVF clinic greatly increased the chances of those eggs creating life, but I have read that many pro-lifers oppose IVF. It's mind-boggling.

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      NotAMoralSimpleton 7 years ago

      I heard on the news this morning that globally the number of abortions has fallen, and that this is attributed to contraception. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8305217.stm. The article has some other interesting points, such as the high numbers of deaths or complications resulting from unsafe abortions, the fact that number of abortions is essentially unrelated their legality, and the fact that the ultra-liberal Netherlands has a low number of abortions per capita (due to good sex education and contraception).

      It rather seems to me that if you truly want to reduce the number of abortions, you would drop your short-sighted religious objections, and get with the liberal program. I do not wish to dismiss the ethical dilemma, but it does seem illogical to put yourself in a position which ironically leads to more, and more dangerous, abortions. Which is more ethical: standing up for your principles, or actually making a difference? A little more pragmatism, and a little less dogmatism, is the way forward.

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      FisherKing 7 years ago

      Your entire argument is predicated upon your claim that a fertilised ovum has the same rights and properties as an adult human, which is simply nonsense. Your claim is faith-based, emotional and wrong. Have you cracked open a recently fertilised egg and seen the tiny smear of red on the yolk? Is that a chicken? No, it is a potential chicken.

      DreamLiving seems to be more thoughtful of some wider issues.

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      emdi 7 years ago

      Cari, your hub is one of the best article I read about Pro-life.