Bombing for Peace is Like......

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   oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years ago

   I just saw picture of someone holding a sign that said in essence, "Bombing for peace is like having sex for virginity."  But the word used for sex was another word, you get the idea....
   
   I think that at first glance, this might make great sense to many people.  However, does it really?  So I thought it would be a good idea to discuss between people, because I think that all of us would rather no one ever have to bomb anyone else for any reason.  The thing is, our world is filled with people and groups of people that aren't really on board with the ideas that made free countries able to be free in the first place.  Very curious your thoughts.  Do you agree with the sentiment in quotes above?

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Who has sex for virginity?
      Who bombs for peace?

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         wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Hiroshima.  Nagasaki.  Dresden

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            The bombing was to stop aggression. Not for peace.
            Sometimes the good guys need to stop the aggression of the bad guys. Whats wrong with that?

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               wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               But I didn't indicate there was anything wrong with it, only that it was to promote peace.  Which it was; the goal of both A bombs was an earlier peace with fewer lost American lives.

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            oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            We see current or recent news also, of bombing going on in places in the Middle East.

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         oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Hi Kathryn, good questions.  No one has sex for virginity. Some powerful countries bomb for their own reasons.  Is this a good analogy though?  I am not sure that it is. So its a suggestion, an assertion that trying one thing for the one, IS LIKE doing one thing for supposedly the other. 
         
         When maniacal dictatorships or true terrorism is taking lives, its not like reasonable talks are something that is on the table, to get it to stop.  This is maybe one of the toughest things for leaders of free nations to have to deal with I think.  There are lots of dynamics going on too. 
         
         To the person holding the sign however, if she were a Jew in Germany in WW2, I wonder if bombing for peace would be like having sex for virginity, or however they want to put it.  I highly doubt it.

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      Cat333posted 10 years agoin reply to this

      To every thing there is a season...
      
      I break it down to a level that could apply to me personally. Could I harm someone to stop harm of someone? Some people, especially many women, say they couldn't kill a person no matter what. Yet, if that person was attempting to kidnap or harm your child, you just might. I would if I had to. I would to protect anyone's child. I would mourn for the person who died, yet I would do what had to be done for the protection of the innocent.
      
      Bombing and war are the same on a larger scale. Personally, I doubt I could do it, but I wouldn't be in such a position. While it's a grievous thing, I understand the necessity when the goal is protection of those being harmed. In this way bombing to end violence does make sense to me, just as putting an end to kidnapping, assault and murder, even by violent means, makes sense.
      
      Because we live in a day in which we're taught that there is no absolute right and wrong, but everything is subjective, the fight against evil no longer appears justified to many. Even in kids' programs now, "bigfoot", or whatever monster appeared evil at first, turns out to be fine and just different once known. There exists less and less teaching about evil, as if the lines between good and evil are intentionally being blurred. Those who attempt to fight against evil (e.g., law enforcement, for example) are increasingly becoming the villains in the minds of many, and to speak or act against evil is ironically now considered wrong or unnecessary. Yet clearly evil exists in the forms of abuse, enslavement, violence against the innocent and so on, and it has to be dealt with in this day as in any day. How can evils be dealt with peaceably?

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Self-defense is a matter of common sense.
         Defense of the nation is a matter of common sense.
         "…provide for the common defense."
         Does that phrase sound familiar?
         Who could disagree with this intent?
         
         BTW
         What are we doing to protect the world, the nation, the individual from ISIS?

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            wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Bombing them...

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               oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               I have also seen more and more people trying to understand the base for that belief system.  There seems to be a lot of varying views of it and what it entails.  This can be helpful overall I think, though unpleasant and hard to sort through while also being politically correct.  Being politically correct is getting lots of people killed these days, unfortunately, and more and more are waking up to that as well I think. 
               
               For so many people dying its kind of scary we are still putting "being politically correct" up on such a pedestal.  Its one thing to die for the sake of freedom or truth or something, but quite another thing to die because being politically correct was given a higher priority.  I don't get it, because if its terror we are talking about, so much has to bow to cowardly terror, that it can get a "win or free pass" just because of the sheer terror.   Terror wins until it is stopped, and doesn't bow to politically correct ideologies.  How many more have to die?  (Sorry, thinking of what happened today in Paris with the journalists and police.)

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         oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Fair points Cat, thank you.  I wish more would think things through like that.

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            Cat333posted 10 years agoin reply to this

            You're welcome, and thank you! It's an important topic and I'm glad you started this thread.

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      retief2000posted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Bombing appeared to work for Japan, Germany and Italy - at peace since 1945. 70 years without trouble from Germany, unprecedented.

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         oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Being at peace, being without any trouble from certain countries is a good thing.  Those are good points.  I hate that it comes at such a price, but as history so often shows, this isn't about just being diplomatic and talking through things.  Its about making some things, abundantly clear.  Not easy to do, not easy for all leaders.

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            retief2000posted 10 years agoin reply to this

            War is a tool of diplomacy, after all one cannot accurately place a value on peace if one doesn't fully comprehend the price of war. Afghanistan and Iraq will be a problem in the future because the cost Islamists are willing to pay is high, much like the Japanese. Unless Islamists are show the actual price of war, they will not sue for peace.

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               oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Yes, they are willing to pay high, and then those that use terror, well its a big problem.  I hope it doesn't come to something even bigger than 9-11.  It might just change the whole fabric of societies in little pockets everywhere, as things creep up.  This is what we seem to see.  No one has to learn from history, but if we don't and repeat the same errors, then we don't get to do that and have different results.

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                  retief2000posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  It has already come to something bigger than 9/11, ISIS controls large areas of Iraq and Syria after slaughtering thousands - men, women and children.

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   ahorsebackposted 10 years ago

   Those who cry constantly for the wages of pacifism , will never understand the age old need for a defense and even more so will never morally grasp the need for an offensive  campaign as  a  form of defending a free society   !    They would have everyone believe that countries like America  don't even need an Army ,   that  we don't need a CIA or a  Navy or any form of  vigilance in the maintenance  of  ours or anyone else's right to living in  peace  .
   
   I forget who said it but when asked , Why we need  covert military operations ,said   , and  I paraphrase ,
   "  There has to be a point between a major  political disagreement between two countries and an all out war !",    Hence the need for covert and  offensive sub- military actions .  Especially in todays world and in todays,  as well as tomorrows ,  war on  terrorism  !

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      rhamsonposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      The need to defend oneself should have nothing to do with pacifism but more to preservation. The defending of a position should not require physical defense as well. But where is the line between ideology and politics. The US has continually meddled in the Middle East since becoming a military power from the beginning. We have supplied others to fight their wars, fought there ourselves and continue to support those who prefer violence over peace. Where does it end? When do WE stop? It is one thing to be attacked for no apparent reason and defend oneself to continue living but when you overthrow other countries, give away others land and property and then tell them to suck it up and accept it, how can anything but violence be realized. We have raised generations of disgruntled people in these counties through our "just" treatment of our allies. Those who are beholding to us and we to them continue to stick them in the eye and when they react they are always the bad guys. You have a strange way of concluding the facts while losing the history associated with it.

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         Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Wiki
         
         At over 1.2 million deaths (1,220,580), this estimate is the highest number ..
         
         casualties of the Iraq War from 2003 to 2011. ..... 22% of the respondents had lost one or more household members. ..... is reported to have said there were five million orphans in Iraq – almost half of the country's children.
         ‎Iraq Body Count project - ‎Lancet surveys of Iraq War - ‎Casualties of Iraqi insurgency
         
         Not one Iraqi has been proven to have killed an American in their soil. Explain this to the Iraqi families. Self defend my.......

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            ahorsebackposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            "Not one Iraqi has been proven to have killed an American on their soil " That's almost the most immature  and asinine statement I've ever heard spoken  !   Do you even remember far enough back to  know why we invaded Iraq to begin with . They invaded  Kuwait  , murdering , raping , pillaging thousands of innocents !

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               Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Is Kuwait America's 51st state?

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         ahorsebackposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         I know well the history lessons , Try this Though and see how it works ! Tomorrow when you go to work , try doing it without  the gasoline  from the crude oil out of  Iraq ,   while you're doing that  turn off your furnace , you don't really need that heating  oil  to run it do you , where's that from ? And those rubber souled shoes your wearing , try kicking them away and walking bare foot  for a couple of years .. The cell phone you all hold  texting so addictively  in your hands , try using that without the precious metals  that make the thing do whatever it does !   All of these rubber tires , the  coco leaves  for your  pain killers , the cancer drugs from  the Amazon ,,
         
         Are you starting to get the strategic sense of protecting your interests in foreign countries ? No .  Try  going to Wall-Mart  with bare shelves because the Liberian  freighters  can't get through the Suez  Canal !   What  naïve ' anti- war enthusiast's   Like yourselves can't seem to understand -mostly - is how involved in foreign affairs they or you , already are !

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            rhamsonposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Right off the bat you are wrong about Iraqi oil. The US gets most of its oil from Canada. The others I will investigate further but I know that precious metals come from all around the globe. Your history lesson leaves a little to be desired.
            
            But as a departure from the origins of our trading preferences you make a point to bomb people for these things? Really man you are too much.

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               oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               I don't think he was saying the US bombs people for oil and metals.  That might be a misconstruing of the points just a little?

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                  rhamsonposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  ...Tomorrow when you go to work , try doing it without  the gasoline  from the crude oil out of  Iraq ,   while you're doing that  turn off your furnace , you don't really need that heating  oil  to run it do you , where's that from ?...
                  
                  Refers to the wars to protect our oil interests
                  
                  ....And those rubber souled shoes your wearing , try kicking them away and walking bare foot  for a couple of years ..
                  
                  Harvey Firestone was granted a tax free status for his exploitation of Liberian land to grow his rubber trees. This was a concession that was granted with US negotiators instead of the 5 million dollar loan he wanted to impose on Liberia which was a flip from what they wanted from us. This was done under US interests which also exploited a poor labor force that were paid commensurably.
                  
                  ....The cell phone you all hold  texting so addictively  in your hands , try using that without the precious metals  that make the thing do whatever it does !....
                  
                  Recent (1980's) discoveries of precious metals in Afghanistan has fueled a debate as to why the US will just not leave.
                  
                  ..What  naïve ' anti- war enthusiast's   Like yourselves can't seem to understand -mostly - is how involved in foreign affairs they or you , already are !...
                  
                  And this is to justify war so that I may get my condiments and trinkets? The reasons behind these conflicts is to demand from others in less than equitable ways that which we want at a lower price. That is the whole reason for exploiting the cheap labor market in China. And that is why we are losing our jobs to keep up with these phony scares.

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            Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Solar thermal technology can supply over 90% of grid power, while reducing carbon emissions hugely. The wind/water/ and geo power would take it way beyond. The U.S. could eliminate their dependence on coal, oil and gas for electricity and transportation, drastically slashing global warming pollution without increasing costs for energy. For during day and night mainly solar and wind power can completely replace coal and gas for utility generation globally is.
            
            
            Corporate cartels would not agree. That would harm their interest of their profiteer’s scam. How else could they keeping the lower 80% to 7% wealth wail they boss us around into a great false democracy? I will not get into Cannabis/hemp marijuana's cousin healthy practice education vs incarnation Now back to America military budget is 10 times greater than their education budget. The purpose of the military is to defend society, not to define it.  While a country may seem to have civilian control of the military and police yet without democracy. It goes to show the Military intelligent holds our freedom and brains at the end of a gun barrel.

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               ahorsebackposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Solar , wind and green powers are fine - when the wind blows or sun shines !  Try coordinating the sun  or wind with peak power hours however  , peak green  doesn't happen . at six PM .THAT is why we're not all putting wind mills on our house , in spite of you chasing wind mills  with your reasoning .!

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                  Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Much of my village and a city of 3 million  Rioade are running their heating and energy just on solar. China is making it law in many  places. Again war solves nothing.

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                     Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     < Again war solves nothing>....in certain dimensions...
                     ( oh, wrong thread, again).

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               wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Solar could indeed supply grid power.  Particularly as the needed power would be cut drastically by the cost of that power.
               
               People would freeze to death as they could no longer pay for heat, but if that price is all right, perhaps we should go solar.

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                  Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  About 50% of waste at dumps is paper.I make fire logs out of paper. Working  on hemp biofuel

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                     wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     Takes a lot of logs to heat a home for a winter.  A LOT of logs - the single one I could make from the paper I produce each day will not do the job.

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                        Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        - lot of rolling going on there...

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                           wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           Good point.  I used to heat with wood, years ago and a few days of hard work would do the job for a winter.  I'd guess that rolling logs takes a lot longer than splitting them.

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                           Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           This paper moulds into large pvc plpe much fzstetthancutting wood

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                        Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        I turn my papercrete tow mixerinto moulding paper

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                           Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           Papercrete is a construction material which consists of re-pulped paper fiber with Portland cement or clay and/or other soil added. First patented in 1928, it was revived during the 1980s. Although perceived as an environmentally friendly material due to the significant recycled content, this is offset by the presence of cement.
                           
                           Just don't breathe into it…
                           (oh, wrong thread.)

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      oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Ahorseback, all good points.  I can't believe anyone would ever suggest we not have a military, that sounds insane.  The fact is, that those that cry for pacifism in the ways being discussed, while they may disagree vehemently even and with great passion, still benefit from the actions that it takes to really be free.  Free enough to make such signs, and cry foul willy nilly.  So they benefit from the very thing they oppose....I find sometimes that truth works in such ironic ways, and hope that the same people might see such ironies as a clue to a bad idea they may be holding onto.

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         peeplesposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Very well said. It is hard to grasp for most people how many bad things make our lives better, but even those of us who do not like the way the good is obtained can hope for a more rational approach to the situation. We can still have hope that instead of bombing we will simply make an attempt to support ourselves, leave people alone to destroy themselves, mind our own business, gain our needs through each other.
         You are right most of us have no desire for there to be NO army. We simply want an army that is only sent to actually help us, not to feed the greed of our government.

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            oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks Peeples.  I think its true what you say there, that there are lots of things in our lives that seem "bad" that  make our lives better.  We live like we know this is true everyday with so many things.  The desire for the good thing, outweighs the unpleasantness in the other thing that is required to obtain or maintain the desired thing.  Like living, lol, we have to work very hard for the roof over our head, and food to live and to pay for vaccinations that come through an injection to avoid some serious diseases, etc.  All things we would rather not do very likely!
            
            I don't disagree that a more rational approach is better, its a good thing to hope for, sure.  As for the idea of just supporting ourselves, I don't think I disagree though I know there are more details concerning that than initially meets the eye.  These kinds of things make me wonder what goes on behind closed doors, and who is pulling the punches really if its not as it appears. That aside for a moment though, the idea of a people group willing to destroy themselves, why fight them to force them into a way of living like we have, IF they really don't want it?  Its like not wanting to progress, and people DO often assume all would want to move forward, rather than imploding or moving backwards. 
            
            If the greed of the government is a real thing, and I wouldn't disagree with what you say if it is, then why the national debt, why the seeming to screw the whole country and its grandkids over for generations to come?  To what end does that help a person or people that are really greedy?  It seems more hellbent on destruction sometimes.
            
            An army just meant to help us, sounds like a good thing (if not too simplistic at this point), while the rest gets sorted out.  Because now we have proof that not all want peace or a societies like we have.  They get mad at the pushing and assuming of that.  We don't have to understand that mentality to know that we are throwing money and American lives also to the wind in the forcing of it.  You bring up some fair points, thanks.  (This may sound callous, but I do care very much about all people on our planet, and am just responding to these particular points.  Its just a big problem we need to rethink on how to handle it, with many huge dynamics involved.)

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         Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Military is rational approach. HEE HAW
         You could cut their budget 10 times and  the world would be a much kinder place.
         
         John Lennon said the leaders are insane.He would rolling in his grave, if could read this thread. That's if he believes in Yahweh.

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            What is a more rational approach?
            Praying for world peace?
            I agree.
            But we have to do the work.
            And amp it up a bit.

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            oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            I was responding to the idea of some pacifists thinking that we don't even need a military....I think being defenseless, not ready to defend is insane.  That is what would happen to, if we didn't have one.  As for cutting the budget, they did do that here if i am not mistaken.  Not sure what you mean by the world being a much kinder place.  Perhaps this is where ideologies take a turn from each other.  Some could make the case that because of the bombs, the world is indeed a much kinder place, because of the peace achieved since the times in the past when military force was used.  That also is what I was responding to.  Retie had made a comment about Japan, Germany, etc.  We have had peace since then with those countries, and its been kinder than what came before. 
            
            Now the terror is of a different kind, and the world hasn't had to deal with it since long ago when some of the same groups were trying to conquer the world, one area at a time.  They were stopped, luckily, or our history till now would look much different if we were here at all! 
            
            Edit ; Now, we are dealing with some of the same core ideas from the same texts and examples from the past, only NOW we have a much more limp wristed approach, that allows political correctness to always come out on top, which means more people getting killed.  We shall see how this approach fares when going up against such ideologies.  I have to think they are laughing, and some could make the case that its the perfect time to try again,and confuse everyone in the mean time.
            
            Freedom loving countries DO allow for the world to be a much kinder place I think.  Its better they are in power, then the alternative.

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Obviously.

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   peeplesposted 10 years ago

   No one bombs for peace. They may lie and say that is the point, but most of the time bombing is done for power. It usually has nothing to do with peace or self defense. USA has bombed over 30 countries. All 30 have not posed a physical threat.
   So "Bombing for peace is like having sex for virginity." would logically make sense if we were actually bombing for peace.

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      ahorsebackposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Peeples , We can't , won't  and hopefully never  will wait for  other countries to become powerful  enough or  creative enough to bomb us HERE  on our own soil ,  Aside from 9-II  no one has  or ever will , at least you'd better hope ,   Take a look at those children of yours and be thankful they haven't , .as well as being thankful  for a strong military that is ever vigilant  , making sure this hasn't happened  { yet },  Can you even imagine how many attempts have been  denied  by our intelligence or military  !

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         peeplesposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Oh I am well aware that they have done an amazing job at protecting us from attacks. The incident in Paris this week was a reminder of how thankful I am to live here, but I also am not blind enough to think all things we do are ok or to protect us from violence. Many of our bombings and attacks have been to fatten the pockets of those who do not care about us.
         I am very thankful I live here.  I can only hope that they continue to protect us, while becoming more mindful that we should not feel entitled to control the entire world.

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            ahorsebackposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Peeples , You are right about Corporate influences in our government and so our military ,  .  We have to demand a divorce between congress and corporate America !

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               rhamsonposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Vote them out!

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                  peeplesposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Sadly if we vote them out there would be none left, and all new ones would do the same. The general majority of the American Public doesn't care enough about the issues to do anything about them.

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                     Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     agree

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                        Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        They may need to burn the whole forest down, for us to grow a new one.

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                           oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           Castle, what would that look like?  (Burning the whole forest down?)

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                  ahorsebackposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  If you  truly read and comprehended  my words you might realize that my meaning is that we cannot sit on our  politically correct keisters  and watch as economic wars  , religious  genocides    , two -bit  dictators , and  Jihadists of all sorts decide  if and when we pay six dollars a gallon for gasoline !  Or why you have to wear wooden souled Biirkenstocks in the rain instead of rubber boots .   Its really easy for pacifists to  sit in the center of free countries like America and cry" stop  all  bombing" . Especially without a true understanding of how cruel  and  corrosive  the rest of the world is towards our democracy .

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                     peeplesposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     The simple solution to stopping other countries from controlling our cost, is to rely on what we have at home and stop acting like we have rights to another countries resources. I think one can be both politically correct and smart enough to know that we must rely on ourselves instead of the entire world. I would rather us drill here a hundred times over bombing for the sake of oil.

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                     rhamsonposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     Why is thinking about what we done with grosse negligence pacifism? Charging in just as we did in Vietnam Nam and Iraq and Somalia and I could go on forever get us? War is the failure of politics. Why do you wish to repeat it?

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                        wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        While pointing out that we also "charged" into both theaters in WWII quite successfully, I wonder - did we prevent another North Korea in 'Nam?  Did we stop the use of the gas (WMD's) found in Iraq? 
                        
                        We'll never know, but simply assuming that we did not doesn't seem real profitable.

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                  oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  If only it were so easy. I too wonder at the insanity of our leaders at times, the seeming to be running headlong towards things that would destroy our country in various ways.  Its at the point where just the people we see, could they really be wanting such a bad legacy for themselves, that they don't think Americans can see the destructive tendencies?  Well we can, and this makes me ask, what explains all of this, that THAT is what is willing to be sacrificed?  What explains this craziness?  I think its something we should ponder.

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      oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I don't know if I could agree with the comment, "No one bombs for peace."  Perhaps a better way of wording it (though still maybe lacking something) would be to say, bombing to regain peace, to reestablish peace?
      
      As for bombing for power, well I think it almost always is about power.  What we (you and I and hopefully everyone) is that the ones in actual power, are more of the "good guys" than the "bad guys!"  Sorry for the overly simplistic response, but you get the idea I hope.  Of course you want the wants that truly want democracy and freedom for all, to be the ones that have to bomb when necessary, and it will be about not letting those that have true evil intent for others, to get an upper hand.  To get more power in the hands of those that have a proven track record for not having more civilized and freedom loving countries, is a scary thing.  This whole idea of bombing is totally unfortunate.  Its part of the the world we live in though, and everyone craves to be top dog, to be that super power.  So many dynamics involved, its hard to talk about almost.  I think I get the gist of what you are saying though. A tough subject!

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   You were really galloping up there, ahorseback!   
   Thank you.

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      ahorsebackposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Kathryn , we have to keep up the fight  that people really know the dangers in the world against free countries like America !.....Be  always vigilant ......:-}

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         Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Yes, vigilant for the bankers, police and miltarity, how about the vast majority

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Terrorism is on the rise and the world is in dire need of "America's Leadership" to curb it. I just heard Carly Fiorina say this on talk radio. She says she's running for President. She sounds good. But her credentials are limited and her looks not stunning.
         She has no chance.
         "(She) was the Republican nominee for the United States Senate from California in 2010. Fiorina served as chief executive officer of Hewlett-Packard from 1999 to 2005 and previously was an executive at AT&T and its equipment and technology spinoff, Lucent."

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   ahorsebackposted 10 years ago

   "War is the failure of politics" -- One must open ones mind  to deeper understandings of war , That's one very  simplistic look at war., I offer you this , war is the extension of politics , war is the arbitration of political discourse,  War is the defending of politics , War is the beginning of politics . But then those who simply   "are against war " never do quite get it .  Listen  even soldiers hate war . Yet wars must be fought from time to time .     I suppose you are also against the war on terror as well .

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      We can either wait for the (terrorist) attacks to occur here or be proactive.
      Why not be proactive?
      Why let evil gain momentum?
      
      Should we just smile at workers of inequity?
      Should we not preserve ourselves and those who are equitable?
      
      No. We should get out our swords.
      And fight against satanic delusion as we always have.
      
      But, it does take appropriate leadership.
      Leadership which recognizes inequity when it occurs.
      
      TWISI

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         Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Killing only creates killing, Hate for hate and so on.  It's much easier to kill someone if you think they are a subhuman demon and America is number one for that.

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Oh, really?
            Do Go On...!!!

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            oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            You said that killing only creates killing, but lets think this through.  It depends.  Some that kill wantonly and sometimes without regard for even their own lives, how do you stop them from continuing on in that?  This is what is being talked about I believe, or what many of here are talking about. 
            
            I don't think we should apply labels of subhuman demons to people, as that doesn't help. Here is the problem though...  some people are really acting out in ways in recent months and years, that actually allow children to be killed in the most horrific of ways I can't share here.  So then what?  What if that was your family member?  This is how we have to think things through, because its not just in remote locations anymore.  That is pretty bold language you use there, but why would anyone ever say such words about killers?  Is there any justification?

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      Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Not against anything and have no eneimies to love.
      
      Two evils to vote for = makes a wrong.

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         oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Two evils to vote for = makes a wrong?  Perhaps so, but aren't you leaving out the possibility of the big dilemma of voting for the lesser of the two evils, to promote the least amount of evil?  Not suggesting this be the case necessarily, by the way.  This is the big dilemma for many of us anymore,what the options are! 
         
         A sad but true fact of life is just such a predicament, that being that we often are faced with such tough choices, and the answers aren't easy.  Usually, being rational, having access to all the truth/facts you can have, seeking all the wisdom you can, and lead to be better of two choices.  If one really doesn't know what to vote for, then perhaps yes, don't vote.  On the other hand, perhaps the one that is offering the most ear tickling, and freebies, and "too good to be true" kinds of things, ought to be reconsidered as being totally forthright.  Many have been burned it seems.

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      rhamsonposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Well if the war on terror turns out like the war on drugs I can't agree to it. Why are you so hell bent on war? What are you afraid of learning about peace?

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   oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years ago

   In today's world, and the terrorism of all kinds, we need to think about these things more than ever, and be wise as possible.  Its too bad really, because we can't assume the best about everyone like we might prefer to.  To we want to be caught up in a time where we let things go too far, and then can't fight back when "all hell breaks loose?"  Things could get crazy pretty quickly, as we see, depending on where one lives, and what they have done in those societies.  France being a prime example.
   
   Wouldn't it be great for instance, to be able to have our police not have to have guns?  Wouldn't it be great if being politically correct didn't sometimes end up costing innocent lives?  Yet this isn't about what is nice, over reality.  It isn't about what is ideal, or desired, over the reality.  True terror silences, and this and all the other terror factors give an equivalent of "more points" or life, in say a video game.  Talk about power!!!  I believe that those trying to push for ideas that turn out to be very bad ideas, like how terrorizing others tends to work well for them, when all else doesn't really work.  I believe truth and goodness, don't need to be defended with terror.  Terrorizing others is a sure sign something much deeper is wrong.

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      wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      What is wrong is that the power structure in Islam is being badly eroded simply by Muslims being able to see what other, non-muslim countries, do.  How they live, how the people are treated, the freedoms they enjoy.  Coupled with a barbaric culture unable to defend itself any other way the terrorism is the result.

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         oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         I never thought about it like that.  What do you mean, terrorism is the result, at the end there? (Just so I am clear.)

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Its their only recourse for any sort of power or advancement at all, I would assume.

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               oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Yeah..
               
               He mentioned about defending themselves, and I suppose so, but notice that they don't tend to want to change things, why is terror the go to response for things?  That is what has to change.  Was curious too what they are defending against, an ideology they are jealous of, if its as he said, about how now they can see how people in freedom loving countries live and are treated, etc?  Maybe before they just thought that was how life really was? Don't mind me, just kind of thinking out loud or through my typing rather lol.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Here is the reality of these people:
                  They are suck in an ancient mode of killing anyone who doesn't believe what they believe. They have been killing each other (Sunnis and the Shiites) for centuries. They took over Europe in the early centuries AD. Think of the crusades. They were a response to their tyrannic ways with the first invasion of the Moors. Now we have the second invasion of these Moors.
                  Moors
                  "a member of a northwestern African Muslim people of mixed Berber and Arab descent. In the 8th century they conquered the Iberian peninsula, but were finally driven out of their last stronghold in Granada at the end of the 15th century." Dictionary
                  
                  What have they produced or accomplished? Where are all the hospitals and schools they have built? Where is any evidence of their "greatness." They are jealous and they are coming to get us for that reason alone, it seems.

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                     oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     Yes perhaps jealousy....I think it is driven by a very real evil also.  False ideas, that are inherently immoral, that steal and take life from innocents.  It fails as an idea.  The ideology breeds trouble, and wreaks havoc.  Long ago though, they didn't have the same constraints that current societies put upon themselves.  If something isn't done to stop people that won't be reasoned with, then we will just continue to see fall out. 
                     
                     Gunning for a fight, wondering how far the civilized people that can live amongst others of different faiths or lack of faith, can be pushed until they say hey, that is enough.  I saw something earlier today posted, and it showed a little boy asking his mom, "Why is there war?"  I can't remember the exact answer, but something about psychopaths that are trying to benefit monetarily from war, so they keep on fueling it on both sides, and also own the media and have a stranglehold on politics to some degree.  Thus, they fuel the ideology that keeps on making more war, so that some keep on benefiting from it, monetarily.
                     
                     That sounds like something out of a horror film, but its an expressed idea that has gone around before.  Its kind of a conspiracy theory of sorts, but I wonder at its possible truthfulness when nothing else much makes sense of the insanity we see.  This isn't centuries ago.  So I wonder what people thought of that or those ideas too.

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                  Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  People fear what they do not understand about Muslim.Mind your own bussiness first your Government is your greatest threat, they don't care about you anymore.

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                     oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     Castlepaloma, actually, I have studied it when I first learned or became concerned.  So I know more than you think.  Its not an "either/or" threat either.  I see them both for what they are.  So if I speak on one, please don't assume I am not concerned about the other.  Perhaps you and I are lucky, nothing has come from a far away ideology to our own current locales, but it doesn't mean it hasn't in other cities, just like ours.

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            wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Protection of the culture (and the elite at the top of the power structure) is imperative.  With a smaller population and an inferior technological base to work from terrorism is the only tool in the arsenal that has a hope of maintaining the status quo.  And doubly so when the people as a whole are becoming dissatisfied with what the culture is providing them.

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               oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               So they are terrorizing others and their own people, for the fall out of their bad ideas, and the desire to protect the status quo?  Sorry I seem to not be getting what you are saying.

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      Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Where did any Iraqi come in on American soil and kill anyone. American and other gang members destory places of worship, museums, and mostly non military people for what?
      
      Bush admits 9/11 was an inside job.
      Greenspan said it was about the oil as everyone knows.
      
      There is your terrorist

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Unless he was a puppet, as well…
         How do we fight/quell the GLOBALISTS?

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            Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            The World will change itself with or without you and I. Guns will be going insane and the second wave of depression sets in. Hide and be perpare on how you will love to be of service.
            No fighting.

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Have you read or seen the movie, The Road?

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               oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               It concerns me that peole (not Katherine lol) in general don't seem to appreciate how horrifying things are going to have to get, if we keep on a path we are on.  Its a simple observance of history and cause and effect.  Its like we are living on borrowed time in a good way for now, from past good ideas, but these current bad ideas and growing government will produce a bad way, though will likely be blamed on something else.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   Some people are not cut out for politics. John Lennon was one such. Artists are excused as long as they promote peace.
   So you, Castle Paloma, are hereby cut some slack.

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      oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Fair point about artists and politics....  He does seem pretty passionate about things though, and maybe rightly so, as we all ought to be!  Lennon was passionate too, aye yai yai. lol

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         (((wB fits into this category too)))

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            oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Haha, yes have thought Wb would have a thing or two to say in this thread lol.

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Its a question as old as our country at least.
               I mean who the heck LIKES war and Battle?????
               There are those who are fair and those who are not.
               One must always defend in the name of what is fair.
               Whether we like it or not.
               Is it fair to allow tyrants to get away with chopping off children's heads?
               
               Or is there some larger conspiracy we are all missing?
               a Bigger Picture…?

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                  oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Exactly, and fair points.  And no, not some bigger conspiracy we are all missing here I don't think, as it really just is that bad. 
                  
                  I do wonder at some of the response from world powers, that know full well all the things we are discussing and history, and then want to label some as things like "activists".  That makes me wonder some, lol.

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               Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               I should be lucky  for refusing WB a war sculpture and not getting killed.   
               Canceled my  U.S. work permit was good enough. Now everybody gets checked over like their a terrorist

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Who commissioned the work?

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         Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Your right, I'm too honest to be a lawyer or a King
         
         Would make a Hell of WizArt

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8. 81

   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   Repeating:
   
   Should we just smile at workers of inequity?
   Should we not preserve ourselves and those who are equitable?

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      oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Not caught up, that is some good stuff there!  No, never just smile at workers of inequity.  Yes, we should preserve ourselves and those who are equitable.  And I might add, and help some that are confused by rhetoric meant to steer them into desired positions, to see the light.  To see things as they really are, for the good of all.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Thank You.

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         Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         To see the bright light of a bomb, then to see the bright light of tunnel towards the heavens. When the angles try to pry off the gun from  my cold dead hands.
         No thanks
         
         Stick to better things like Stars Sun and play on earth with my stardust friends.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   Bush admits 9/11 was an inside job.
   Prove it.

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      Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      OH! You must see
      
      Check on youtube
      Bush admits 9/11

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Thank You!

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         oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Can you please show us a link to the Youtube video where Bush admitted to 9/11?
         
         Also, why is he roaming free in America?  We need to stop the presses and share that video! People will want his head for what he did to the twin towers and so many families, etc.

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10. 0

    ahorsebackposted 10 years ago

    My  point gentlemen .{ Ladies too of course} , Is that  in the interests of  the consumerism  of a world markets   ,Both necessary , oil , gas , rubber , etc. , whatever and the non- necessary consumerism as well .  Toys ,  jewelry or paper for that matter .   These world markets  and the integrity of the trading thereof , must be protected !   For instance , the entire middle east is one of the major oil producers , as you know .    If an atmosphere of conflict exists between these producers , that makes the volatility  of price and availability rise and fall , correct  ? Basic economics  right ?   
    
    Hence , the necessary involvement of  super-powers  and their economic bases [ us ]  , to both consume , there by providing an economy for the same regions  , and  to protect these interests  for the world  .? It is one thing to be "against all bombing " and another to not allow Al-Qaida  and ISIL  to  isolate , direct ,  deny  or otherwise  control oil !  Those who cannot grasp this are both niave' and  intellectually shallow .

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       rhamsonposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       All of this echo's a lack of availability unless we bomb them? The real issue is affordability not availability. We love the idea of globalization as long as we get what we want at the prices we want them. That is not the reality of it for other countries that feel the oppression of the plutocracies and dictatorships that prosper because of their power over their people to sell out their own as they get rich. Add into that American intervention that precedes some of these trading agreements and you get a recipe for unrest and violence. The terrorism has an element of oppression by other countries that breeds contempt for the west. If you cannot see this then you are a part of the problem and you can cry all you want to militarily dominate other countries for trade access but it only pours fuel on the fire.

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          oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          The dynamics are causing some confusion, and these issues get run together in people's minds I fear.

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             rhamsonposted 10 years agoin reply to this

             Absolutely just as Islam and terrorism has become synonymous. The blur is the rush that is logic flying past us in an effort to find a quick fix. Consumerism is an important part of capitalism but when it becomes the priority where lives and fortunes are spent only to continue it one should step back and take in all the possibilities rather than the simplistic solutions sans the logic.

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                oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                It seems to me, that when we see terrorism, usually the media is trying to be careful about who is being talked about, unless you know of some examples where it is otherwise. (If they are not, then that is really bad. And I don't see everything.)   So I don't know what else to say about that.  I am not for people rushing into bad ideas, especially if it lacks logic, no matter what the desire is.  If it is as you say though, ever, then I would agree, its time to take a step back and take in all the possibilities.  Do you have any examples where that has happened that you want to discuss?

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       oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       It does seem to be basic economics, and obvious.  The demonizing I see going on, only confuses things, and fuels passions in a negative manner. 
       
       It is naive to say things are so cut and dry, when the finer details matter.  So I appreciate the reminders, and hope others do also.

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11. 81

    Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

    Once, I went to an event put on in the executive Arco offices of a high rise building located in the heart of LA. I was bored with the event and wandered into one of the conference rooms where the tables and chairs of the top executives sat empty…  I sat down in one of the chairs and could feel the power these individuals must possess as they sit in their meetings looking out over L.A., So. Cal., the State of CA, the Nation and the World.
    It was awesome to sense: A power, A freedom ... rather like flying. I might have well have been flying over L.A. like an angel.     
    
    That is the force we little people on the ground are fighting.
    ... and we really have NO IDEA!
    
    I Am Assuming

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    ahorsebackposted 10 years ago

    Kathryn ,   Yet those power -brokers at that table still have to wait for the election polls to know whether or not they will continue to hold a place at that table . The polls are YOU and I . Lets do our part  and keep them guessing !

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       Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       I hope you are right about the polls, ahorseback. I really do.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

    All they have to do is not be so tyrannic or totalitarian… It is not conducive to flourishing human psyches and civilized thinking / accomplishments.

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       Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Half the time Governments are lying to you or the other half of the time they don't know what they are doing. And you trust these Bozo's to run your life.
       
       PLEASE unslave yourself

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    ahorsebackposted 10 years ago

    Casstle , Yes , Lets ignore terrorism and blame it all on our  own governments ! That surely makes terrorism go away won't it ?  , Why just ask Israel and they will tell you  that its true !

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15. 0

    ahorsebackposted 10 years ago

    Yes I have and read the book as well ! Kathryn, great story huh ? Scary to imagine .

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       Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       I'll say. Thats the look of anarchy, I'm afraid.
       
       If our govt. leaders have any appreciation what-so-ever for what the founders intended for the American People and Posterity, they will think twice about their actions.
       Montesquieu referenced the problems which occur within democratic societies/governments.
       We need to guard against them and protect what we still have.
       
       http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/montesquieu/

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          Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Most American believe they are control by puppet master. The real owners of this country own your jobs, your home, most of the good land through banks and taxes.  Then they got you chasing this terrorist ghost at home and over the world. America has killed 4% of Iraqi's population I imagine if middle east killed 15 million Americans (4%) . An eye for an eye makes the whole world. Killing the America's 4% would cost the whole world their lives.

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             Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

             Why do they want us to chase terrorism... ghost or not?

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                ahorsebackposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Kathryn , Terrorism , is an evil form of diplomacy by definition ? It is the tool of the small , insignificant  radical .  Terror in itself  is  created by the grenade dropped in a crowd , by the strapping of C-4 onto a child's chest  to explode when he walks into the market center ,  Terrorism is hijacking airlines and flying them into buildings full of multi- ethnic  people.........Why chase it ?

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                   Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                   America has had 72 wars in brown skin countries. They want their land and spirit and brown people need to protect themselves and their land by any means, would not you?

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             Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

             An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

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                Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                I don't think its a matter of "eye for an eye."
                …but, that is a poetic application.
                
                However, I liked this article:
                http://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/ … al-complex

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                   Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                   End NATO is good start. American family feuds started in mid
                   1800, an eye
                   for an eye, now the mental illness as grown a 100's
                   times greater.
                   The gun sales in America has skyrocketed and god can't pry the bankers  money from their cold dead hands.

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                      ahorsebackposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                      End Nato ?  Isn't that kinda like , dropping your weapon and let the Nazi's roll into Paris ? London ? Toronto ?

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                         oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                         That is akin to what I thought!  What?  lol

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                oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Not all believe in an "eye for an eye."   If they did, then you would be right, then the whole world would be blind, or dead.  Sometimes, I am surprised it hasn't happened yet, and that things like Israel aren't blown off the map like so many want it to be.
                
                I think something (something like God) is prohibiting it for now.  It certainly isn't for the lack of capability, desire, or sheer hatred.

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                   Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                   When a small murderer Muslim group attacks occurs, they are insanely broadcasted worldwide. Yet when A predominates Christian nations create genocides to millions upon millions of people and they call themselves Conquerors of the World for a new world order. When in reality, these Conquerors send out, nine times out of ten soldiers who are murderer in a uniform for profiteers beyond the Gods and beyond the good intention for majority of the people.
                   
                   Either way Religion, military, justice system with their too many laws and lawyers are straggling our freedom and liberties. It’s where security cost too much to where you loose both your liberties and your security

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                      oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                      I think it helps to know the motivations, and of the examples you give, religion is one of the motivations, and the other is not.  So these examples don't seem fair to me.  It seems so crazy to you but you are accusing the wrong things i think.  If it was true, that religious motivations were behind the Muslim group attacks, and the other attacks you seem to be referring to, then your comparison would be valid I think.  I don't know of any group that calls themselves conquerors of the world, for a new world order.  If you want to discuss particular attacks, we can do so, and it may be more helpful/fruitful.

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                         Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                         oceans
                         
                         You got me thinking on how to write a vison I've had,
                         
                         Stay tune to a new thread

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    ahorsebackposted 10 years ago

    All who fear the puppet-master of  America need not worry ! The real puppet--masters ?  Organized labor ,  all the influences that make your representation shudder on  their knees ,"The military industrial complex " = organized   labor !  The ship builders , electronic warfare =electronic corporations , weapons manufactures ,government employees  by the millions ,   Lobbyists , lobbyists, lobbyist's !  These are the only boogy men  pulling the strings of your representation ..
    
    You who  think terrorist's that are self radicalized ,are our problem , look at the self radicalized lobbyist's !

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       Castlepalomaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Follow the money and you find your puppet masters (Banks) who train other puppet cartel masters. Don,t worry the true leaders of the world are the people and always has been throughout human history. I'm fearless, by understanding, how about  the majority that are not?

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