Senator John McCain just announce he won't vote for repeal of ACA
This is after repeated claim he will repeal ACA in re-election campaign...
How does he sleep at night?
Who is paying him?
Why is he still a Senator?Good! Anything that tells the orange man-baby to go f*ck off is okay with me!
"Why is he still a Senator?"
Because he's been there a long, long time, has a great deal of political power and, presumably, "brings home the bacon" in the form of lots of federal monies to his voters.
A great example of why term limits are necessary.mm, wrong.
98 % of ALL incumbents are reelected.
With wide name recognition, and usually an insurmountable advantage in campaign cash, incumbents typically have little trouble holding onto their seats.
That's why need to have Congress destroy USSC decision of Citizens United.
The money behind the most expensive U.S. House race in history
9 million dollars runoff race
http://www.businessinsider.com/ap-trump … ama-2017-9
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the … 02fbcf0798Sounds like we said the same thing - how was it wrong?
You are right,
I no longer support McCain after finding out he abandoned ship and went AWOL during the ship fire and then the radio address he did while POW.I don't have the option of supporting McCain, but if I did I wouldn't support him because he has gathered far too much power and uses it incorrectly. On the plus side for him, he has neglected to follow party edicts (a result of knowing he's a short timer and it doesn't matter any more?). Perhaps if all of them were short timers we would see more of the same.
Darn Moderates, LoL!
I know that many people in his party despise him and have for a while - for often being one of the holdouts on 'extreme' GOP policies. He supposedly has 'too much power' and 'doesn't use it correctly', right?
I think he would really like to have an Obamacare replacement; but he is holding out for a bipartisan one - because its high time that our politicians STOP trying to FORCE their extreme issues onto the rest of the country who would ALSO really LIKE to have a bipartisan bill.
There are only a handful of GOP that I appreciate; and McCain has always been one of them. At least when he 'uses his power' it is usually for the benefit of 'we the people'.
Its the 'in' thing to be anti-McCain, especially since Trump dissed his military service. Anyone who has a sliver of something 'honorable' - like experience, an education or an impressive military record - is pretty much a loser to T-fans. But, as far as I am concerned, McCain is still a hero - pushing against his party for 'the people'. If I could grab him and give him a big kiss on the lips, I would! LoL!My problem with John McCain is that is a deceiver. If he wants to be a Democrat, why not run as one. Why lie about his position just to get elected and then does what he pleases and screw his voters...
We as voters have very little recourse. We elected people every 2,4 and 6 years to govern... If they don't do what they promise to do, what else can we do?
So disingenuous of him to say one thing and do the opposite.
So when was the last time a Democrat after winning elections and seek a bipartisan solution? Never.While I disagree that fighting for "we the people" means requiring them to buy what others want but don't want to pay for from their own pocket, I also disagree that any politician is tied to the edicts of their party. That's a big part of what is wrong with our government, IMO, and why the "behind the curtain" puppeteers are actually running the country rather than our elected politicians.
Bernie Sanders does it all the time. So did President Obama. Joe Biden was one of the most bipartisan Democrats there is. Diane Feinstein does it and so did Barbara Boxer. Want more?
Seems to me that Mr. McCain is playing the revenge game against both Trump for calling him names, and the GOP for not electing him in the past. The man is dying so expect to see his real truth emerge. He was a sellout to his brothers and sisters in the military during Vietnam Nam, now he's a sellout to his GOP family.
McCain is the biggest anti-American, lying POS politician that there is. He represents everything wrong with Congress, and these criminals that stay in D.C. for decades selling out the American people.
There is no bigger enemy to America or the Constitution than John McCain.
Notice who is his best buddy in this clip (Joe Biden):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcXlf_GrPmo
I know he was a POW, I have seen and heard plenty of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hr37eE0nO8
But that doesn't mean that today, he is not corrupt, or being given the wrong information and supporting the very causes and political positions that are doing the American people harm. Whether it is because he is totally out of touch with reality, or whether he is a willing tool of those who will do America's interests harm, doesn't really matter... he remained in office by lying (IE - I will repeal Obamacare) and by deceit, and he forwards the agendas that harm American's interests, that's what matters.Hi Ken, without addressing your opinion of McCain - just your first link, I have a question, (or two):
"Notice who is his best buddy in this clip (Joe Biden):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcXlf_GrPmo "
What points of that speech do you disagree with? I liked all of it, but I have seen a lot of criticism of him for giving it. Is it just different perspectives, or am I missing something?
GAHi GA,
Happy to elaborate.
I would say one big part of that is he clearly identifies with the Idea of Globalism, NWO. And speaks disdainfully (accusatorily? ... both? .. a better word eludes me at this moment) about Nationalism, and by extension that means America's sovereign rights, American's seeing themselves as Americans and not just part of the big global mass of humanity, etc. etc.
When you strip a country of its identity, and its people of its culture and history... what do yo have?
The idea of a global community, a one world government, has some merits, and some day we might get there, but not in our lifetimes. The course McCain and others try to steer this country on will only lead to our demise. We will abdicate our position in the world to BRICs, this is already well in the works, and yet it seems many of our politicians in the highest places are blind to this fact, arrogantly so. -Or in the case of Obama, I believe he was deliberately seeking such, while undermining the nation's sovereign rights handing them over to whatever international organization wanted them (GTO, UN, etc.). Much of this is being reversed by Trump, as Obama acted through EO, not through Congress, Trump can therefore undo a significant amount of the damage done.-
In truth neither China or Russia (again in our lifetimes) are going to follow along to the whims of those in Europe/America who think they are going to toss aside their national interests and get along as one happy world.
Russia and China would be all to happy for the US to continue on its economical and cultural self destruction in pursuit of this fallacy, until we can't turn back and have gone too far down this path, then they will exert their own national agendas and assume control of the global economy, in essence BRICs will become the NWO power in the world, while America declines and the wealth flees.
And McCain supports and strives towards that fallacy, in addition to being a stooge for the likes of Big Pharma and Insurance, and hence, his refusal to repeal Obamacare.
McCain, through his actions and deeds proves daily he is an enemy to the American people's interests and wellbeing. And the 'establishment elite' love him for it.Thanks Ken, I can see that our different interpretations is a matter of different perspectives.
When I heard the speech, (actually saw the text version first), I had thoughts of stuff like; The Marshall Plan, the Reconstruction of Japan, the representation of our freedoms and liberties that many minor nations have, (or tried to), emulated, and other similar instances of American example and leadership.
By my way of thinking, patriotism and nationalism are not the same thing. There are at least a couple modern-history examples that have shown the harm nationalistic fervor can cause a nation, and that same modern-history has shown the fallacies of short-sighted Isolationism.
I am most definitely not a proponent of this 'New World Order' concept, and I do agree with Pres.Trump's idea that the U.S. should not be anybody's door mat - to be taken of advantage of because of our humanitarian ideals or generosity.
But I do completely agree with McCain's leading statement:
“To refuse the obligations of international leadership and our duty to remain ‘the last best hope of earth’ for the sake of some half-baked, spurious nationalism cooked up by people who would rather find scapegoats than solve problems is as unpatriotic as an attachment to any other tired dogma of the past that Americans consigned to the ash heap of history,” he declared.
We live in a land made of ideals, not blood and soil. We are the custodians of those ideals at home, and their champion abroad. We have done great good in the world. That leadership has had its costs, but we have become incomparably powerful and wealthy as we did. We have a moral obligation to continue in our just cause, and we would bring more than shame on ourselves if we don’t. We will not thrive in a world where our leadership and ideals are absent. We wouldn’t deserve to."
There was more in the speech, than is being shown in most clips of McCain's speech, that sets the context of his remarks. I think they reinforce my perception of the intent of his words. Here is the full text of McCain's speech if you are interested.
From our past exchanges I suspect you are aware of the examples, and results, I mentioned, but I also suspect that your ideological position is similar to the national mood that FDR faced in 1939.
So cheers! Here's to hoping I am right and you are wrong. ;-)
GAGA
Lets consider this first paragraph then, shall we?
"To refuse the obligations of international leadership and our duty to remain ‘the last best hope of earth’ for the sake of some half-baked, spurious nationalism cooked up by people who would rather find scapegoats than solve problems is as unpatriotic as an attachment to any other tired dogma of the past that Americans consigned to the ash heap of history,"
So what McCain has done his best to do here, is to compare the President (and those who support him) to people of historical note, like Hitler.
I know I probably didn't have to spell that out to you. However lets consider the validity of this statement and the effort to paint Trump as such.
Trump hasn't backed out of international duties... he is still defending countries like South Korea and Japan from North Korea's missile spree hasn't he?
He is actually calling Iran onto the mat, rather than burying his head in the sand, of course this angers the Europeans who are benefiting from being able to get energy resources from them while trading their manufactured goods in return. But what does that have to do with what is in America's best interests?
He backed out of the TPP... which would have only made it easier for businesses to move jobs overseas, and made it more certain that our wages and benefits continue to stagnate.
He has challenged China's 'favored nation' status, while China grows at an annual rate of almost 7% a year... our nation has had a tough time managing 1% a year. Could it be that China's cheap labor, and lack of having to pay taxes or tariffs on its products is severely hurting our economic growth?
This 'Nationalism', this 'America first' that Trump speaks of, is an anathema to those globalists like McCain that believe the American Constitution and National Sovereignty are antiquated ideas that no longer serve a useful purpose... of course its easy to have those beliefs when you have hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank, and live where and how you like.
McCain, and all the rest of the corrupt in Congress, despise Trump for what he represents, that middle class Americans are aware of the betrayals against them by Congress, and the truth that these politicians are not Patriots to this nation they want to believe themselves to be, but corrupt and criminally negligent betrayers of all Americans (save the 1% elite establishment types).
And thanks for the replies, your counterpoint is always welcome.It looks like I still might not be getting it, Ken.
Where did you get the Hitler comparison from; the "spurious nationalism," or "the tired dogma?" I am guessing it would be the nationalism part. And if that is true, it doesn't seem you hold a very high opinion of it if you think it to be a Hitler reference.
The rest of your response jumped tracks on me - you went into Trump defense mode to validate your disdain for the man and his speech. Remember, I didn't address your opinion of McCain, or whatever unspoken inferences anyone could draw from the fact it was he who gave the speech, I was addressing what was actually said.
You said, "However lets consider the validity of this statement and the effort to paint Trump as such."
My initial question was about the first part, the validity of the statement, your response seems to be about the latter part, the effort to paint Trump as wrong.
It was clear to me he was criticizing Trump, and the direction of his policies, but that didn't alter my opinion that I think his point was valid - regardless of who it was directed at.
... and that was the point of my initial question to you.
Your explanation answered my question, and this response seems to confirm my impression that it's all about perspectives. You are comfortable condemning the words because they are directed at Pres. Trump, but do you condemn what they actually say? I can hardly resist posing the rhetorical question of whether you would feel the same if that speech had been directed at Pres. Obama - but I will try.
GAAs a stand alone statement, from a neutral non-political standpoint, and not from McCain. I think it reasonable to extrapolate from it what you have.
But it didn't come from a neutral party, it came from someone who has made clear statements in the past, and this is just his continuation of that conversation, as I am sure you are aware.
McCain has been railing against the President every chance he has, on every podium he is presented. Going all the way back to BEFORE the election, starting with his willingly presenting false information against Trump to be considered by the FBI and other established institutions.
He has gone out of his way to oppose the President every chance he has had, and more importantly he has gone against the very promises he made to his voters that got him re-elected (in this way he is so much a establishment tool) such as by not repealing Obamacare when given the opportunity, as he strongly advocated for when running for re-election.
Now, I admit, McCain is a very savvy and wise speaker, knowing just how to couch his words and vail his true meaning, in this he is fully the opposite of Trump, who embodies in many ways the 'ugly American' and speaks a little too bluntly and wildly for those of more refined and delicate background.
When you read any of McCain's statements, they all seem reasonable and well thought out, and a rational mind would tend to agree with him:
“The severity of this issue, the gravity of it, is so consequential because if you succeed in corrupting an election, then you’ve destroyed the foundation of democracy,” McCain said in regards to accusations that the Russians 'hacked' the election. “So I view it with the utmost seriousness. I view it more seriously than a physical attack. I view it more seriously than Orlando or San Bernardino. As tragic as that was, the far-reaching consequences of an election hack are certainly far in excess of a single terrorist attack.”
Of course, we all know where the heart of this stems, Trump's not a hero insult of former POW McCain I am sure helped to solidify McCain's efforts against him at every turn.
But I am not alone in realizing what McCain's true intentions were with that 'speech', nor what his efforts have been since before Trump became President.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/ … 771885001/I was glad to hear your perception of a "neutral" presentation of the speech Ken, and I do understand why we view McCain's presentation differently.
I think you are right about McCain's careful wording, but I don't think that is a bad or even disingenuous thing. Being able to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they thank you for doing so is a High Art by my way of thinking. I do prefer 'plain' speaking, but sometimes, and some circumstances, do require that higher art of communicating. One being, I think, public speaking, (which I think also includes Twitter).
I liked your link, and even agreed with the "translations" - except I wish it hadn't left me hanging with that last non-stated translation. Since I don't share similar perspectives, I am left wondering. (the "spurious" and "blood and soil" ones were easy to spot)
Here it is:
"He said, "We have done great good in the world. That leadership has had its costs, but we have become incomparably powerful and wealthy as we did. We have a moral obligation to continue in our just cause, and we would bring more than shame on ourselves if we don’t. We will not thrive in a world where our leadership and ideals are absent. We wouldn’t deserve to.”
What would be your translation?
GAGA,
Yes, I too can appreciate a person's ability to veil in eloquent words and dignified manner, a slap down of one's opponent. McCain has shown a greater ability to do this than I imagined (must have some good speech writers)... he speaks wise words, for mostly the wrong reasons.
Where-as Trump speaks blunt, insulting, and crass words, for primarily the right reasons.
In total, I took that speech to say... we fought against this type of tyranny and prejudice in WWII, and now Trump (and those who support him) embody that evil.
Trying to separate that last paragraph from the whole causes it to lose its context, its not really a stand alone statement... and in some ways counters itself.
You could say it meant - America has gotten rich off the world, and its only right we give back to it, and continue to lead in the NWO effort, and if we don't do so, we don't deserve the riches we have.
Of course, that outlook is rather delusional IMO, as the roads Congress has led this country down during the last 30 years, with allowing China to strip our industry out from us. and still favoring what is now the largest economy in the world with 'favored nation' status, to allowing NAFTA, to destroying half of the Middle East (all former Soviet allies) at great expense in lives and wealth, to Glass Steagall, to Obamacare ... America's wealth is no longer its own.
Then again, perhaps McCain is speaking of all the efforts we made across the decades to destabilize and overthrow one government after another, from Asia to Central America, Middle East to Africa, with military bases across the globe... I'm not sure where he stands on all that, or if he believes it was all in a good cause... like the funding and shipping weapons to 'rebels' in Syria, does he believe all the people in Syria are so much better off for our interference... same with Libya... Iraq... Afghanistan... is this what he is referring too?
All of it is certainly not from a Nationalistic, America-first, outlook... Americans did not benefit from any of the above, we became poorer for it, we have visited suffering upon untold millions, we are less unified as a culture and society than ever before, we are awash in idiotic 'leadership' where our politicians (openly or not) support continued open borders and millions of countless undocumented workers (and worker visa programs) while 100 million Americans stew without anything worthwhile to do with their lives.
McCain has with his entire life's effort, worked for the demise of America and its citizens, no matter how eloquently he can speak, and make you think he is the champion of all that is good and righteous in the world, he has actually supported the most evil and vile actions this country has taken, upon its own citizens, and upon those abroad who are not.Ken, I can understand your view. Like most opinion points, there are almost always degrees of agreement or rejection - shades of gray, involved. I can see validity in several of your points, points that to some degree I can support. Others, I think, have being your opinion as their only validity. But even so, those opinions don't seem baseless.
One example of those degrees might be in your take on McCain's speech...
"In total, I took that speech to say... we fought against this type of tyranny and prejudice in WWII, and now Trump (and those who support him) embody that evil."
My take would have been something like; "... we have seen the dangers these national attitudes, (Nationalism, Isolationism, Protectionism), pose in our own history, and now Trump and those who support him want to ignore those dangers - whatever the cost, in pursuit of an agenda."
Putting aside a discussion of that agenda, I can see that my perception boils down to almost the same view as yours, but for me, there is just the slightest degree of difference that I think makes a difference.
As for that last paragraph translation, I wouldn't read anything "New World Order-ly" from it. I take it to mean something like we have established a role model for the world, and by that process became prosperous, wealthy , and powerful. To diminish that role model now would be to diminish ourselves. Just one more example of an authority figure saying, "Do as I say, not as I do." And for the "... where our leadership and ideals are absent," part... well, if you aren't a leader then you must be a follower, because there is no option to not participate.
I too support America first. But I support it as a patriot, not a nationalist. (not intended as an implication to you) And I am not an avid McCain supporter, but neither am I a McCain demonizer. Regarding his ACA votes that he is being condemned for - I support his vote, primarily for the reasons he gave;
To paraphrase the first one; He couldn't support a bill that was not bipartisan, that was just another partisan bill forced on the people, like the way Obamacare was enacted.
Then;
"While the amendment would have repealed some of Obamacare’s most burdensome regulations, it offered no replacement to actually reform our health care system and deliver affordable, quality health care to our citizens,” McCain said in his first statement after voting to kill the bill."
""I cannot in good conscience vote for the Graham-Cassidy proposal," the Arizona Republican said in a statement. "I believe we could do better working together, Republicans and Democrats, and have not yet really tried. Nor could I support it without knowing how much it will cost, how it will (affect) insurance premiums, and how many people will be helped or hurt by it..."
Aren't those reasons the same condemnations Conservatives heaped on the Democrats for their passage of the ACA? Surely you remember the vitriol leveled at Pelosi for her 'We have to vote for it to know what is in it..." (or something like that)
Are those objections no longer valid because it is the Republicans doing it?
GAGA, well said....
Great question, why is partisan obstruction only acceptable from one side? I am prepared to wait until hell freezes over for the answer from the hard core conservatives.
Instead of being a traitor, McCain is the adult in the room, the true non-partisan putting country first.
How do you define the difference between nationalism and being patriotic?How is he being the adult, when he said one thing to get elected and vote the opposite in office???
Well, Jack obviously the approach to removing Obamacare does not meet with the approval of people having integrity. By the way, how about answering the obstruction question?
I am not sure what you mean by obstruction. It is the job of the opposition party to stop the agenda proposed by the opposite party. It is par for the course. However, in McCain's case he seem to forget that. His job as a Republican leader is to support the party platform and what it got elected to do.
If he is dissatisfied with the direction of the leaders, he should have proposed alternative bills and not just vote against the current bill.Hi jackclee, One part of your response seems to indicate a major difference of opinion between us.
Although both Houses of Congress should, in an ideal world, blend their decisions with considerations of the constituents that elected them, and, what is best for the country, I believe that is even more the case with the Senate. It is the Constitution's intention that the House of Representatives be the populous voice of the people, and the Senate be the more tempered voice. As in, the Senate is intended to reflect the wisdom of thought vs. the House's voice of desire.
Your perspective appears to put party before country; "His job as a Republican leader is to support the party platform..." I disagree. His job is to represent the wisdom of the people of his state.
To finish the context of that quote; "... and what it got [him] elected to do." I think that thought might possibly be an appropriate one for the House, but not the Senate. If that were not the case, why have two legislative Houses?
One 'for instance' in our own time comes to mind. Do you consider the Republican Senators that broke ranks and voted for Pres. Nixon's impeachment to be party traitors? How about those that discarded the validity of evidence and held ranks against impeachment, were they heroes in your mind?
I find it hard to imagine any rationalization that validates your thought that party comes before country.
GAI agree with you in general and the Senate is to be conscience of the people...however, I was commenting in specific about McCain and how he deceived the voters on the repeal of ACA.
Also, in practice, when was the last time a Democrat Senator voted his conscience against his party?
It never happened in recent years.Actually, I think that is the reason why McCain has had such a long run... People LIKE that he isn't just a 'yes-man'; and that common sense, logic & integrity have always been concepts that he has valued. Its not like this is the first GOP issue he has butted against.
McCain agrees with almost all GOP ideals or he would not run under their banner. The difference between him and most politicians (GOP or Dem) is that he won't vote for 'just anything' if it isn't a good enough policy for the country. He WANTS changes to Obamacare (most of us DO); and I don't think he is beyond repealing it - IF the rest of the country is taken into consideration; along with the issues surrounding healthcare that concerned us in the first place (which is why Obamacare was originally created - yeah, 'we the people' were INSISTING on 'something' to help regulate insurance & pharmaceutical companies).
Repealing Obamacare just for the sake of repealing it in order to appease GOP leaders so that they can say they repealed it to their constituents (no matter how bad or incomplete it is) - isn't a good enough reason for McCain to vote for it.
That is called integrity, Jack. And yeah, you're right - it is an INCREDIBLY RARE quality in Washington DC these days; and it has been for far too long.There was a time in the history of America - and everywhere else, for that matter - that people were ABLE to pay their medical bills, even if they were low on money. They were often able to trade 'what they had' for services - like a couple piglets for a midwife; or later, when currency became available - you could go to the doctor for an exam (or get your tooth pulled, etc.) for a nickel or a quarter.
People were on a much more level playing field. Human survival didn't depend on healthy economies - we cut down trees and built our houses by hand; and government 'give-away' HOMESTEAD farms (that are no longer available except in remote places like Alaska) was often how our families made their way through generations in this world as it continued to change...
The issues surrounding the most basic needs of people are in such a different place NOW than where they were when our Constitution was written. Our Forefathers could not possibly have 'seen ahead' to anticipate this looming monster of a healthcare problem.
It is the duty of government to adjust to the needs of the populace. That is why we have a House of Repersentatives and a Senate and an Executive Leader (the potus) and a Supreme Court with judges... to acclimate to our needs & the needs of this country, on demand - no matter how long it actually takes, ha!If that was true, then where is his proposal? As a senior senator, why didn't he offer a repeal and replace bill if he didn't like what was on the table? His record has not been conservative. He was always a moderate and part of the insider system in Washington that the people rejected this election cycle. He is not voting his conscience but wanting to disrupt the Trump agenda. He can't stand the fact Trump succeeded in winning the Whitehouse and he failed earlier.
The insider system that YOUR rightwing insider group rejected, and when it comes to that group, I really couldn't care less, Jack. Clinton won the popular vote, remember?
I prefer moderates to conservatives, so if rightwingers are upset, it is a state of elation for me.Really? Where is his proposal? LoL! McCain ran against Obama in 2008 when the issue of healthcare was really BIG. McCain is far more aware of what the majority of American people want surrounding this issue than most anyone else in those offices, right now - and in fact, he may have even had a healthcare policy proposal back then.
"He was always a moderate and part of the insider system in Washington that the people rejected this election cycle."
Yes, he was always more of a Moderate, working both 'bipartisan' sides - which is what he has always been re-elected for; and why Trump & people like you hate him. FYI, Moderates are not part of the 'insider system' just because they don't cater to one side or the other like you do.
Which do you hate more - Liberals or Moderates? I'm not sure there is a difference between them in your head. Everyone other than Conservatives like you are considered to be wrong - and y'all don't play very well with others JUST because of that one mental handicap.
"He is not voting his conscience but wanting to disrupt the Trump agenda. He can't stand the fact Trump succeeded in winning the Whitehouse and he failed earlier."
Tell yourself whatever you need to feel better, Jack. LoL!
--------------------------
For some strange reason, this really good point got skipped - so here it is again:
There was a time in the history of America - and everywhere else, for that matter - that people were ABLE to pay their medical bills, even if they were low on money. They were often able to trade 'what they had' for services - like a couple piglets for a midwife; or later, when currency became available - you could go to the doctor for an exam (or get your tooth pulled, etc.) for a nickel or a quarter.
People were on a much more level playing field. Human survival didn't depend on healthy economies - we cut down trees to build our houses by hand; and ate off the land. Government 'give-away' HOMESTEAD farms (that are no longer available except in remote places like Alaska) was often how our families made their way through generations in this world as it continued to change...
The issues surrounding the most basic needs of people are in such a different place NOW than where they were when our Constitution was written. Our Forefathers could not possibly have 'seen ahead' to anticipate this looming monster of a healthcare problem.
It is the duty of government to adjust to the needs of the populace. That is why we have a House of Repersentatives and a Senate and an Executive Leader (the potus) and a Supreme Court with judges... to acclimate to our needs & the needs of this country, on demand - no matter how long it actually takes, ha!
I don't think McCain said he would repeal the ACA no matter how many people had to die for it. There may be a difference...
No one is dying. If anything, people will be better off in the long run when we have a market based health insurance.
No, it will be better when we have a system where everyone gets the care they need. Did you watch the debate between Sanders and Cruz the other night? Probably not as you seem to be a Fox watcher, but they really had a good discussion on how our country treats its citizens compared to Scandinavian countries. We really do not need insurance companies to provide good health care.
For profit insurance companies bleed our country dry, and so do unregulated pharmaceutical companies. It's time for people to stop being held hostage because they or a loved one is ill. The foremost duty of our country is to protect and educate its citizens........or it once was.It is the profit motive that drives most innovation. Where do you think these expensive drugs come from? Or these million dollar MRI machines?
The problem is we have a system where these large companies are buying influence in DC and you end up with crony capitalism. The ACA was a prime example. It was a 2000 page bill written by lobbyist for the benefit of insurance companies and not the people.
If proper competition was allowed, the cost will naturally fall and services improve. It is the case in every other aspect of our lives and the free market system.
Hi Cred,
Your question about nationalism vs. patriotism is an easy one - for me.
I think... A patriot loves and believes in his country, but recognizes the bad with the good, and strives for ideals that will benefit their country in the long run. A nationalist believes in and loves his country, but believes it can do no wrong, and strives for ideals that benefit the country now, regardless of future costs.
GAThis is good as we are not so far apart. I associate jingoism with extreme nationalists. The 'do as I say and not as I do' idea is part and parcel. American exceptionalism is a conservatives concept that basically says that the standard rules of international engagement do not apply to US. Love it or leave it can never do, as I insist that we recognize that we must take all of our high sounding ideals and apply them ever more fully domestically and as part of our foreign policy.
As a work in progress, challenging America to be better is the patriotism of the progressive.And in some aspects, perhaps we are not so close either Cred. I take American Exceptionalism to be more related to a description of the life liberties, opportunities and achievements made possible by our form of government - not something that implies we are above the norms of international engagements, or superior to other peoples - in general.
But I can agree with you that challenging America to be better is patriotic, and I might even have to offer a begrudging shrug that progressives might have a sleight edge in that perspective.
GA
GA,
I think those quotes are a good example of one who can use words (and excuses) as cover for his not sticking to his campaign promises, not being a man of his word. This is what any 'good' politician can do. Ignore the words, and look at the actions.
There was a chance to repeal Obamacare, that is all the majority of the people want, do that, and then find a solution... as that will force others of the 'opposing' party to act. If indeed they wanted to take care of 'the people'.
His words and excuses are just window dressing to hide the truth, that he is a shill, beholden to the Insurance industry, Big Pharma, and other medical related sectors that have enriched themselves through Obamacare.
For every person that is aided by Obamacare and receives better medical care (health coverage) for it, it forces two people who used to be able to afford health care insurance to go without, because the deductibles and costs for the insurance make it economically prohibitive (throwing away money for insurance that covers none of their expenses) for them to have it... so more Americans than ever before now suffer without coverage, without benefits (paying out of pocket instead, and thereby essentially entering into the realm of those who because of prohibitive health issues couldn't get care before)... meanwhile the subsidies (tax dollars) go to cover skyrocketing Insurance costs and medical bills (prescriptions) that are being inflated BECAUSE of Obamacare.
Oh, and lets not forget, you have to pay a penalty for not having heath insurance, so either way, you are paying to make the Insurance companies and Big Pharma richer.
Those people who the Insurance companies refuse to give coverage, put them on Medicare/Medicaid, that was ALWAYS the logical solution to this problem, the easiest solution to this problem.... but that wouldn't allow the Insurance companies, Big Pharma, etc. to siphon billions of dollars from the Federal troth like they are now, and that wouldn't allow the government to spread tax dollars to millions of refugees and illegal immigrants as easily as they do now. But what that would have done, is allow people who work for a living to still have Insurance that actually covers their expenses, and benefits them... in other words, they'd actually still get something of benefit for buying into Insurance.
--- As for how McCain sees our country, and our leadership role, etc. As I said its delusional, out of touch with reality.
My father-in-law is over this weekend, on a stop from his near endless globe-trotting travels, and while I have spent a few years of my own life living outside of America in various foreign lands my experiences pale in comparison to his own.
And he could tell you of how when visiting a newly built/rebuilt port in China, how enormous it was, how state-of-the-art, with a massive newly built battleship sitting in one dock... he was comparing how incredible the difference was between what he saw in China, and then what he saw in the run down, miserable looking port he came into at NYC.
It was reminiscent of what Trump was saying on the campaign trail, how he would fly into a Chinese Airport noted how incredible it was, and then he'd fly into an American airport and the contrast was startling, it was like flying into a third world country.
So again, I am not sure what delusional world McCain is in, but it has nothing to do with our current reality. We can't lead the world anywhere, we are fast tracking to a nation in bankruptcy, a nation that despite having the biggest Army, biggest Fleet, and most military bases, has been gutted, it no longer has industrial might, it no longer has the best infrastructure, it no longer has the world's leading economy... and opposing the 'America first' concept that Trump has put forward means McCain supports that continued decline, supports the continued gutting of America.
And I don't know why you bring up that last question, in regards to Republicans, as I say always and repeatedly, the corruption is on both sides, and one side is the same as the other when it comes to the BIG issues impacting Americans... McCain is just as bad as Waters, every damned one of them that has been there for two decades or more are the problem, regardless of the party they say they belong to.Ken, we are certainly on the same page in the thought that one party is as bad as the other, and that the hand of "big pharma" was too heavily involved in Obamacare's creation. My point in that last question was the hypocrisy of Republicans now wanting to do what they so heartily criticized the Democrats for doing.
Regarding McCain's explanations for his Obamacare repeal votes - whether he really believes what he says isn't an issue with me. I think his stated reasons are valid reasons that I agree with.
I was not a proponent of Obamacare, but what I was most anti about was the way Obamacare was passed - the majority party shoving it down our throats, without any minority party participation. The same thing the Republicans are trying to do now. Then it was a political maneuver that was bought, not brought by the will of the people, and now, a political maneuver that is purely partisan. Neither is the right way to go.
My second issue with a straight repeal is that, like it or not, Obamacare changed the landscape. Now a national healthcare program is an accepted conclusion, but rather than a discussion about a viable replacement program, or a discussion about how to fix the one we have, the discussion is about millions of people losing coverage Obamacare gave them, and millions of people whose healthcare situation was damaged by Obamacare. A 'loss' hardship vs a 'cost' hardship. There is no winner in the Republican proposals.
Regarding your China airports and seaports points, I would enthusiastically endorse an infrastructure program that would modernize ours. One point to consider though, is that most of China's "world-class" operations are state funded or state owned, a difficult comparison for our "primarily private" enterprises. Yet, I think it would be a good example of an "ideals" agenda a patriot would approve of, and a nationalist would decry.
GAThe Repeal efforts HAVE been brought by the will of the people, it is why the Republicans now dominate Congress, because they ran on the repeal Obamacare platform.... McCain included.
As for the issue of National Healthcare, it could never work, its simply a matter of doing the math. Look at Canada, they have 56% of their people employed and contributing into the system.
They have enough people supporting it so that it works, to the level that it does, (their waiting lists can be long). They also have the option of traveling south to have things taken care of here, out of pocket.
America has roughly 33% of their people employed. This puts a huge burden on the minority to cover a much larger majority. For the working stiffs getting the shaft on this Obamacare deal now, it would only get worse for them. And of course, a true National Healthcare system would make Insurance Companies obsolete... something I cannot see Congress bringing about in its current corrupt state.
I have discussed this with others in the past, FDR had his New Deal, where millions of out of work 'had no purpose in life' young men were channeled into projects that built bridges, dams, retaining walls along major rivers, etc.
This country desperately needs something like this now, the younger generation desperately needs something like this now, millions of unemployed young men and women sit around with no purpose in life, no job opportunities.
The nation investing into something run and maintained like the military, but not for purposes of war, but rather the purpose to rebuild our Nation so that it is equal to the challenges of the 21st century, rather than the antiquated and collapsing infrastructure that it is, is the only way I can see we address the Nation's issues in a way that is economically feasible.Ken, I hope that your "math" rational, concerning a national healthcare program is wrong, because I don't think we can close the door that Obamacare opened.
I can see the beneficial possibilities of a 'workfare' type of national program. I have frequently considered certain aspects of FDR's "New Deal" programs, (the TVA - Tenn. Valley Author., comes to mind), to be possible models for some of our current situations.
GAI would love to see a viable scenario where a National healthcare system works, where 50% or more of a taxpayer's earnings aren't stripped away by the Feds to support it.
As for the other, when faced with a similar issues of massive amounts of unemployed, Roosevelt used the power of the Presidency to put people to work.
Under the auspices of New Deal programs like the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) and the Works Progress Administration (WPA).
Millions of Americans found meaningful employment restoring our nation’s forests and watersheds and building the economic infrastructure which later allowed America to grow the economy well into the future.
Equally important, the skills required to build the 1000s of bridges, roads, schools, airports, dams, retaining walls, barrier reefs, key pieces of economic infrastructure necessary for a economy to grow was learned in that generation.
FDR did this, paraphrasing his own words, because the most immediate and primary tasks needed to meet the economic emergency was to put people to work. This not only led to a significant drop in the unemployment rate (by more than 10 percent in his first term), it also helped fuel a period of economic expansion that would last into the 60s.
There is a difference between the reported unemployment rates (people who have been out of work for a year or less who are still looking for work, and likely collecting benefits/reporting) and the actual amount of unemployed, which nears 100 million capable workers without jobs that pay a wage they can support themselves with.
This is the type of thing, unlike welfare, that the Nation would likely see its money returned back from, with interest, for investing into such a program. If nothing else, it would educate millions of a new generation in work ethic, self worth, education, and experience.I have to be careful here Ken, because this is a topic I have enjoyed discussing before, and would gladly offer a lengthy reply to, but I wouldn't want anyone offering me a choir robe, or accusing me of hijacking this McCain thread.
So I will just offer a caveat that although I generally agree with your thoughts, times are different now. It is the concept that I think has merits, not the model of its execution. Plus the fact that both the CCC and WPA, (mostly the WPA), had valid political criticisms that in today's environment would probably be too caustic for the public stomach.
GAIMO, it is the only type of solution that would offer hope, and a real sense of value and self-worth to tens of millions of young people that little enough of that now. I may be wrong, maybe there aren't millions of people out there who would love to be involved with building new bridges, damns, roads, having a steady paycheck, and a purpose.
Or maybe there are millions of people who don't know how much such a program would change them, improve their outlook, and future opportunities. So long as we maintain the current system, that does not offer such an alternative, we will never know.
As always GA, thanks for sharing your views.
Let me jump in and comment. McCain is a proponent of one world order along the same line as GHW Bush...
It is very dangerous not only to our country but to the free world.
It should be abundantly clear that the UN is a failed entity and has not prevented one war or conflict and in fact was the cause of many abuses and corruption to this day.
We cannot turn over our soverignty to a world government that is so corrupt to the core and will use climate change to get their agenda...
McCain is not a Republican and has never been Conservative IMHO. He has tried to work with Democrats by reaching across the aisle but when Democrats are in power, they did not reciprocate.
His gang of 8 in various forms only undermine Conservatives at every turn.
He is the ultimate RINO.Hi jackclee, you are always welcome to jump in. but, you response is to a question that wasn't asked.
I was questioning agreement with the concept of the words of the speech, not whether or not its reference to Pres. Trump was accurate. That I agree with McCain's inferences is neither here nor there.
I think that to take issue with the concept of the speech - merely because of its inferred villain is a dangerous attitude for our nation. Sort of like that old saying about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
GA
John McCain in my opinion is a Globalist and he is anti-American, anti-Nationalist. Total RINO elite. I haven't been able to stand him since I heard and saw him the first time on TV. He is simply on the wrong side of history.
Globalists vs PopulistsGood people don't spit on a dying man who spent his life serving his country. You all should be ashamed of yourselves.
I served my country, I screw my courage to the sticking place plenty of times, I don't need your permission to express my disdain for someone who I feel is doing this country harm, who is corrupt, and who brings hardship to Americans and America's interests with his actions.
McCain did this to himself. He has been riding on his military career and POW... war hero... all his political career. He has very little to show for it. No one is spitting on him. We are just pointing out the hypocrisy of this man. Just because he was a war hero does not give him a pass. On the subject of healthcare, it is affecting everyone in the country for generations to come. For him to assume the role of saving it single handed just boggles my mind. He must realize that this bill will go down in flames in a few years and nothing is done about it. What was he thinking?
Calling a dying man an "anti-American, lying POS politician" is spitting on him.
There is nothing to redeem these sorts that insult a man who set the example of courage and love of country compared with a stupid clown in the Oval Office that speaks to us about "financial courage" in its stead.
McCain is too conservative for me, but I recognize a real man when I see it. If I am going to err, it's going to be in favor of such a man
I don't care what the right wingers say. If someone having a record like John McCain speaks, I am going to do more than just pay the usual amount of attention.
He is a Republican with a conscience. That makes him a rare thing in Congress these days.
John McCain is the Manchurian candidate. It is scary to think he almost became President in 2008. But then, we didn't do any bettr with Barack Husein Obama.
Jack, do you think that Trump succeeding to become president where McCain failed is influencing his behavior? McCain has been a senator a long time. He thought he was entitled to run for president and lost. Here comes Trump, who never previously held any type of public office, winning the biggest game in town. Could McCain be acting out of his personal animosity toward Trump and not caring about what he promised his voters?
This is part of it. It shows how petty these senators are. They feel entitled and better and smarter than their constituants. I also think he was never a conservative and idealogically more aligned with the liberal wing of the party and therefore he is a RINO.
Even more reason for him to support Trump because Trump is also not a conservative. He is a pragmatist and wants solutions even if he has to compromise where as most conservatives are principled Constitutionalist. Too bad for a man to retire after so many years of public service with little to show for it.
McCain a Russian puppet?
On April 17, 2007, the Wall Street Journal reported Russian businessmen who made fortunes in the wide-open 1990s amid the Soviet Union’s disintegration were hiring Washington insiders “to persuade investors and regulators they are committed to good corporate governance.”
The Wall Street Journal noted that in 2005, Deripaska hired Bob Dole’s consulting firm for a $560,000 fee to help Deripaska to obtain a visa to visit the United States, ignoring charges from Deripaska’s rivals that Deripaska had been trying to bribe U.S. officials to obtain the coveted visa.
Dole had nearly chosen McCain as his running mate in 1996, and Dole’s lobbying partner at the time was McCain aide Bruce Jackson.
On May 11, 2007, Reuters reported the backstory to the Deripaska visa controversy, noting the U.S. government in July that year had revoked Deripaska’s 2005 multi-entry visa, possibly because of concerns that Deripaska had ties to organized crime in Russia.
Deripaska being barred from the United States cost him billions of dollars as the U.S. cancellation of his entry visa occurred just as Deripaska and his fellow shareholders in aluminum company RusAl were seeking to go public, launching an Initial Public Offering (IPO) in London that would have generated up to $10 billion for Deripaska and his fellow shareholders.
As long as Deripaska was barred from entering the United States, the London IPO was on hold, as U.S.-based institutional investors could never take a position in a company believed tied to Russian organized crime figures in the background. Deripaska’s chief business partner in London was Nathaniel
McCain’s ties to Deripaska
On January 25, 2008, Jeffrey Birnbaum and John Solomon reported in the Washington Post that Rick Davis, then Sen. John McCain’s campaign manager, helped arrange two meetings between McCain and Deripaska in 2006 when McCain was overseas on official congressional trips.
When the first meeting was arranged, in January 2006, Davis was a partner with Manafort in Davis Manafort, then a Washington-based lobbying firm that was being paid to provide political advice to pro-Russian and oligarch-funded candidates in Ukraine, according to the Washington Post report. Davis was McCain’s campaign manager for both his serious presidential runs, in 2000 and again in 2008.
Birnbaum and Solomon also noted that at the time of the meeting with Deripaska, McCain was publicly supporting Viktor Yuschenko in Ukraine, a pro-Western reformer who led the 2004 Orange Revolution and was poisoned by dioxin during the campaign. In 2004, Manafort and Davis worked for Yuschencko’s opponent, Viktor Yanukovych, who was backed by Putin, and his Party of Regions.
The Washington Post described the January 2006 meeting between McCain and Deripaska as follows:
The first gathering that brought McCain and Deripaska together occurred in January 2006, when McCain was part of a congressional delegation trip. He and a small group of senators, including Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.) and John E. Sununu (R-N.H.), met for a drink near Davos, Switzerland, at an apartment where they were greeted by Davis and Deripaska.
The group then went to a dinner at the ski chalet of Peter Munk, founder of Barrick Gold, the world’s largest gold-mining company, based in Toronto. Participants at the buffet dinner said Munk complimented his sometime business partner Deripaska during his brief remarks to the 40 or so guests.
The Washington Post noted the second meeting took place even months later, in August 2006, Davis attended a social gathering attended by McCain and Deripaska in Montenegro, another Eastern European country Davis and Manafort were representing at that time.
Birnbaum and Solomon noted Davis was a paid consultant to the governing party in Montenegro. Following the dinner, a group from the dinner took boats out to a nearby yacht in the Adriatic Sea, where champagne and pastry were served, celebrating McCain’s 70th birthday, though neither McCain nor Davis subsequently recalled Deripaska being on the yacht for the birthday celebration.
The yacht party was hosted by Italian con-man Rafaello Follieri and his movie-star girlfriend Anne Hathaway, at the time when Follieri, represented by Doug Band’s Teneo consulting firm had committed a $1 million-dollar contribution to the Clinton Foundation.
In 2008, Follieri was convicted of defrauding investors of up to $6 million dollars by posing as an agent of the Vatican.
Follieri pled guilty to fourteen counts of conspiracy, money laundering, and fraud, and served almost five years in a Pennsylvania prison before he was deported back to Italy.
“Moscow on the Mediterranean”
Reporting on the McCain meeting with Deripaska in Montenegro in August 2006, the Nation noted that Davis and Manafort had obtained a several-million-dollar contract to help run Montenegro’s independence referendum campaign in 2006.
McCain also supported Montenegro independence, endorsing what the Nation described as a “simplistic notion of ‘independence’ from a country America had been at war with, in the late 1990s was all that mattered.”
The Nation noted that Putin and the Kremlin were agreeable, noting that Russia had generally sided with Serbia against the West during the Balkans wars of the 1990s, but “for the Kremlin, cutting Montenegro free from Serbia meant dealing with a Montenegro that could be more easily controlled.”
The Nation observed that the Kremlin had nicknamed Montenegro as “Moscow by the Mediterranean,” largely because “Russian oligarchs (including Deripaska) control huge chunks of the country’s industry and prized coastline – and Russian exert a powerful influence over the country’s political culture.”
The Nation commented that “Russia’s virtual takeover of Montenegro was well underway in January 2006, when Rick Davis introduced Deripaska to McCain at a villa in Davos, Switzerland.”
The Nation also reported that when Rick Davis arranged the meeting in Montenegro between McCain and Deripaska, Davis was lobbying hard for Davis Manafort to run the Montenegro referendum campaign, and Bob Dole’s lobbying firm had been paid $1.38 million by the Montenegro government since 2001 to lobby for it in Washington.
“Whether it was because of Dole or, as some speculate, the Russians, Davis got his deal,” the Nation concluded.
With RINO like him and others, why do we have two parties?
A joke and the swamp is alive and well.Perhaps, McCain is doing us a favor. He wants ACA to fail and let the democats take the blame. After it collapses in a year or two, we can rescue it...
Who's "we"? Republican clowns that don't have an answer for anything?
We are the true Conservative GOP members, not McCain and not Ryan and not McConnell...
I've heard that many 'analysts' now consider the GOP to be two different parties in one big party that hasn't actually split, yet. Supposedly, its coming. We'll see how accurate they are, ha!
Hard hearts and hate always lose. They always have and always will. I used to respect conservatives because conservatives faced the facts. When the Republicans aligned with willful ignorance they sold their souls.
It is funny how both parties in past 8 years screwed up our healthcare and economy and you blame it on Conservatives-who had nothing to do with what transpired and are only trying to fix it...
In my mind, it is the Democrats, and RINO congress that are the problem who can't seem to do anything...As a former Republican with Republican friends and relatives, I believe plenty of them are still good and well-meaning people.
It's just that extremists have taken over the party leadership. And extremist followers shout loudly while the reasonable ones are bullied into silence.
When I see this quote from NY Senator Chuck Schumer -
"John McCain shows the same courage in Congress that he showed when he was a naval aviator," said Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y. "I have assured Sen. McCain that as soon as repeal is off the table, we Democrats are intent on resuming the bipartisan process."
I am convinced Senator McCain has lost his sense of balance.I think the bigger picture is that we need something in place in regards to national health care. Until the Republicans can field a viable alternative I can see senators such as McCain saying no at the moment.
Is it too much to ask the Congress to put the American people first and come up with a workable model that can replace a broken before it got off the ground system? I don't think so.Medicare for all should be the goal as originally intended.
What, in your opinion, should we give up to pay for it? The military? Food Stamps, section 8 housing and WIC? Half of each?
I'm not a budgetary expert. I'm just thankful that I'm born into a country as a citizen and not stateless like the Rohingya.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur … 42812.html
I'm in a very good mood which is SO RARE for me. like maybe 2-3 days out of the year. - So give it a few hours, I'm sure the old cranky me will return with a vengeance.
Even former presidents are eluding without naming JOTUS45
Bush43:
“We’ve seen nationalism distorted into nativism, forgotten the dynamism that immigration has always brought to America,” Mr. Bush said. “We see a fading confidence in the value of free markets and international trade, forgetting that conflict, instability and poverty follow in the wake of protectionism. We’ve seen the return of isolationist sentiments, forgetting that American security is directly threatened by the chaos and despair of distant places.
“bigotry seems emboldened” and “our politics seems more vulnerable to conspiracy theories and outright fabrication.”
“Bullying and prejudice in our public life sets a national tone, provides permission for cruelty and bigotry and compromises the moral education of children,
Obama44:
“Some of the politics we see now, we thought we put that to bed. That has folks looking 50 years back. It’s the 21st century, not the 19th century. Come on!”
“Instead of looking for ways to work together to get things done in a practical way, we’ve got folks who are deliberately trying to make folks angry, to demonize people who have different ideas, to get the base all riled up because it provides a short-term tactical advantage.”
________________________
“The two presidents speaking out so forcefully and eloquently is a warning that some basic principles of democracy that both parties have long supported at home and abroad are in jeopardy,” said Antony J. Blinken,Unfortunately, they are both wrong. It is the globalist and one world order speaking and not standing up for America.
The discussion for our country going back to the last election is what do we want as a country?
It is two very different world views.
On the one hand, do you want us to be an open borders society like what is going on with the EU and have floods of immigrants coming over our borders...and support the UN and the IPCC and its climate change agenda? And exporting our jobs with outsourcing?
On the other hand, do you want a US first policy to defend our borders, to stop the climate change agenda of taxing the rich countries to distribute to the 3rd world and doing it selectively...? And bringing jobs and manufacturing plants back with a more equitable and competitive tax and trade policies..?
You can call it nationalism but there is a reason we have contries and borders. We have voted for soverignty as a nation and want to protect our country as an independent entity and not be like Germany.
The bottom line is, there is nothing wrong with putting America and Americans first. They are the forgotten population in past administrations both Democrat and Republicsns... they have been hijacked by the globalist and crony capitalist with there donations and lobbyists. It is high time our elected officials do the bidding of the people who elected them and not the Soros of the world.There's no one better-suited to discuss the job and the nation than two men who have held that job, each for eight years, and from two different parties. They know their stuff. And God bless John McCain for knowing right from wrong regardless of which party he signed up for.
Clinton, Bush, Obama... all the same, Democrats in control of Congress, Republicans, all the same.
People who voted for Trump by a large majority voted for him simply because he was the 'anti-Establishment' option. He pointed at the corrupt and criminal cesspool of politicians in D.C. and called them for what they were.
So yes, there is a divide in America, those who realize their government hasn't been working for the people's benefit, but rather, selling the people out. And those that still have no clue, because they are tuned in to the pettiness of politics, choosing sides, and listening to the idiot talking heads in the MSM who are paid to keep them ignorant.
Yes, the 'establishment' is pulling out all the stops. But I ask you, Obama was worth what when he ran to become President? How many hundreds of millions is he worth now? The Bush family, exactly how many hundreds of millions are they worth? McCain, do you know how many hundreds of millions he (and his wife) are worth?
These lifetime political figures, didn't pass NAFTA to benefit you, didn't repeal Glass Steagall to benefit you,didn't pass Obamacare to benefit you, didn't decide to allow open borders to benefit you, none of this benefited the American workers or American citizens. Again, all it takes is a little effort, a little research, to find the facts, to learn who really benefits, and who really has paid the price over the last quarter century.John McCain speech receiving the liberty medal -
Shocking...
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/16/politics/ … index.html
"Clinton, Bush, Obama... all the same, Democrats in control of Congress, Republicans, all the same."
Absolutely agree.
"People who voted for Trump by a large majority voted for him simply because he was the 'anti-Establishment' option. He pointed at the corrupt and criminal cesspool of politicians in D.C. and called them for what they were."
Actually, he just played the 'mouthy' game really really well and impressed you. It is amazing to me how many people believe that there is actually a 'deep state' - and yet, are so damn sure that THEY have it all figured out. Ken et all are part of the group of very special humans in this world who are somehow immune to the manipulations of our shadow government.
Currently, the shadows have been creating havok by causing divisions between us to go as deep & wide as possible... and then deeper still. It is obvious, since they are using the same tired, rehashed arguments they have always used to divide & conquer us.
ANYONE who believes that they have everything figured out; AND are sure that they know who to trust and who not to trust - is seriously fooling themselves. Trump is a freaking poster child for the deep state. Hopefully you figure that out before its too late.For those who are Trump haters, I ask a simple question. What specifically has he done in the last 9 months that warrant your hatred?
I would like a simple answer please.Lol... I can see you are still waiting for one four days later. Jack, why don't you try out Minds.com, you might find the people there a little more open minded to the thoughts and ideas we share. I will be doing the bulk of my 'posting' on there from now on. https://www.minds.com/KenBurgess
This actually looks like it would be a neat little place to hang out. It reminds me of Twitter, ha! You've got quite the long list of worldwide atrocities going on there, Ken.
The problem with 'collecting' these things is that - while they ARE actual physically-based things that you can see and wrap your mind around; they are actually only ENERGY manifesting as a mirror for society so that we know 'where we stand'. No, its not a prettty picture - but they CAN be 'unmanifested' as easily, no matter how overwhelming these situations seem to be right now.
Continuing to gather, think about and talk about them is good for us only to a certain extent - because that is how we humans sort through our 'contrast' in order to make decisions about our lives. But, to constantly put your attention to this stuff in an obsessive way only attracts more minds to them to make them BIGGER - since they are actually 'reflecting energy'; and we are MADE of energy. That is what our emotion are: energy in motion.
We are never going to solve the huge problems of this world by highlighting them. We have to let them go and literally 'lay new pipes' on top of the old ones. We do that in the same way we built the old pipes - with our minds.
Start thinking about the things you WANT and how they will make you feel - instead of thinking about how things are. Our minds are far more powerful than we ever knew - that's how this stuff got so bad in the first place. Now we have to learn how to repair the messes we've made. Look up Law of Attraction.This is true, this is something Tesla himself preached (not verbatim but close enough) what you focus your mind has a good chance of becoming reality, to a certain degree... if you think you are doomed to fail in life and always get fired from jobs and never have a good life, then this is likely what will become of your life. If you spend your life sitting around stewing about how wronged you are, and how it is the fault of the other sex, or race, or religion, then nothing positive is likely to come of your efforts or your life, however you may become a bringer of harm and hate to others.
If my 'collection' on there seems a collection of 'worldwide atrocities' then I need to review my content and correct and balance the content and the message I want to provide from it.
My ultimate goal would be to provide an alternative view from the misinformation fed by our MSM, and to counter what I perceive to be a dangerous anti-American, anti-western, anti-white, anti-Christian movements in the MSM and the majority of vocal and violent movements in our society today.
We can see a STRONG effort to counter people who are patriotic, or Christian, or just average mind-their-own-business be-nice-to-others middle class Americans... without getting into 'conspiracy theory' areas, we can see this in the coverage of the riots and clashes over Civil War statues, and how they are covered in the media... this inflames the biases and prejudices.
And why? Who decided all of a sudden that these statues needed to be torn down, who organized these groups, who funded the organizers?
While I want to help people think, and get beyond the issues of race or political party to look at the bigger picture, to look at why we are constantly being prodded by the media .. I also want to provide some positive and beneficial information and insights... I will have to re-evaluate the content, and give it a better balance.
I appreciate you sharing your perspective on it.
I've answered this question lots of times... I don't hate Trump. I hate the way he has divided us DEEPER along the same damn 'fault lines' that have always divided us. As I've said, the deep state knows no new tricks; and he is obviously part of their agenda. The agenda is division, mistrust & chaos that is intended to eventually have us BEGGING for military rule. All Trump does is attempt to provoke anger or fear in people. There is no semblance for unity for the people of this country in either his words or actions.
You think you voted for Trump to 'bring change' - so did everyone who voted for Obama. But, you didn't vote someone into office that the deep state didn't INTEND to put in there. You jumped through their hoops like good little boys & girls; and voted exactly the way they wanted you to vote - and now you think you know everything and did something good for this country.
There is always 'good' in everything - silver lining, make lemonade, etc. Causing people to realize the existence of a deep state is pretty much the 'good' that Trump has brought. It isn't meant to be a soothing, healing salve - it is meant to be more like the sting of pouring alcohol on a festering wound. It hurts like hell, but healing will eventually come.Interesting that some don't consider the very nature of Pres. Obama's divisiveness in leadership style negative , as the do with Trumps ?
No. One person's 'divisiveness in leadership style' is other person's reason to celebrate - as you can tell every time Trump does something you like that the majority of the rest of us hate.
I am not sticking up for Obama in a 'he did everything right' way... But, as much as people hated him and his family, they didn't toss insults & offensive accusations around like candy at a parade in order to prick the people who disliked him the most - the hardest.
He ALSO didn't completely ignore the opposing side - in fact, the 'progessive', BIpartisan policies he was trying to create were considered to be offensive (and still are - OMG, the NERVE!). Obama was an attempt by the deep state to console people after the middle east 'conflicts' were handled so badly by the right wing. I mean, LOOK - they even allowed someone who not ONLY had dark skin into the potus slot; BUT he had the same kind of scary-sounding Muslim name of our 'enemies'.
Don't TELL us that America is not an open-minded, FREE country!!!
While the contrast between Obama and Trump seems stark - they are both puppets; and every damn potus will continue to be a puppet UNTIL the deep state finally falls. That obviously hasn't happened, yet; and it won't until we realize that we're all being manipulated, unite - and decide to create something else.
There's no hurry... Things are on track. Destruction happens before reconstruction.
Right ,...... In the leadership of Obama , choosing the passive aggressive style of dividing races with" beer garden " tactics is just as bad and worse than directly dividing people. By insinuating that racism exists in speech and action and by operating outside of constitutional law by executive order ?
You mean THAT kind of divisive leadership style ?You're completely missing the point; and now I realize that it is probably not an easy thing for you to see Trump as being just as much a puppet of the deep state as Obama was.
I'll tell you the same thing I told Jack: diversify your media sources if you're so obsessed with this stuff that you just CAN'T walk away from it for long. Not so that you 'get the facts right'; but so that your mind gets a little less cozy in the manipulated rut that it is in.
Because AGAIN... anyone who believes that ALL the fault lies with one side or the other has been seriously manipulated. It doesn't seem that way because there are two completely opposing 'extreme' sides that are actually working toward THE SAME GOAL.
It is what the deep state does and have been doing for generations upon generations. Now is apparently the time to wake up.
"I hate the way he has divided us DEEPER along the same damn 'fault lines' that have always divided us."
Is it Trump or is people that will neither cut any slack whatsoever and/or refuse to accept a President without their own ideology?
"All Trump does is attempt to provoke anger or fear in people."
Just curious, but do you really believe that Trump makes a concerted effort much of the time to provoke anger or fear in people? Or is it, once more, people that exaggerate anything said and actively look for a reason to claim fear or anger? I know he says some pretty nasty things in response to perceived attacks, but beyond that?It is no use arguing about this with you, wilderness... You and people like you who don't see anything wrong with Trump's disposition toward pockets of people or the world can't be convinced that he has done anything wrong.
Believe it or not, I don't even read much left-wing stuff anymore - because they ARE all crying so pathetically in their spilled milk, LoL! But, Trump basically pisses in it at the same time - TAUNTING them and making wild accusation that can be clearly-seen on Twitter.
He cares NOTHING about this country - only the agenda that he is on. He knows what he says will cause controversy and it is OBVIOUSLY what he wants. He manipulates the media in that way. The agenda that he is on is not necessarily the one that you think he is on. Hell, his agenda is not necessarily the one that HE thinks he is on, LoL!
So did you compaint as hard about President Obama when he divided the nation by race, and by gender and by sexual orientation and by economic status?
He did all of the above...
He was admired and praised by the media and the left.
Trump on the other hand did not do any of it. He is no boy scout but at least from what I see, he is trying to upset the Status quo in DC and clean house and do the bidding of the people who elected him...
So far he is getting resistance from both the left and the inner class in Washington. The RINO republicans like McCain still don't get it.
They will go down in defeat in the next election cycle...+1,000,000,000, .........And that IS the difference between Trump - Obama - Clinton, You couldn't have said that better .
"So did you compaint as hard about President Obama when he divided the nation by race, and by gender and by sexual orientation and by economic status?"
Obama didn't do those things, our country was already divided in those ways. The GOP and their pundits somehow made you believe that every problem this country had on his first day in office was all his fault. Obama was no savior; but he isn't quite the evil being you've been led to believe, either. Its the same way with Trump. He is simply fulfilling his purpose to the best of his ability, ha!
Lies, fight, manipulate, fight - that is how the deep state works. And they have you helping. There can be no peace as long as we continue to let them divide and manipulate our minds.
I've told you many times, Jack - diversify your media sources if you're so obsessed with this stuff that you just CAN'T walk away from it for long. Not so that you 'get the facts right'; but so that your mind gets a little less cozy in the manipulated rut that it is in.
I am actually a little familiar with many of the conspiracies you and Ken insist on regurgitating for that reason - and you're right, not ALL of them are 'conspiracies'. That doesn't necessarily mean that you should make yourself sick over them.I know the country was divided before Obama but he was suppose to be the uniter instead he did the opposite with each incident. He allowed OWS and BLM to create havoc and undermined the police.
As far as the latest events, we on the conservative right are proven correct. The whole Russia scandal was the doings created by the media and now the chickens are coming home... it turned out DNC and Hillary are the real Russian scandal...about to be unfolded...How is it that Obama is supposed to pull a rabbit out of a hat? Centuries of racial strife in American life is not just going to disappear just because there happens to be a new President who is black. Obama did not ALLOW anything, these groups came up on their own. Who allowed the damned Tea Party and White Nationalist organizations to, once again, rear their ugly heads? If you are against left wing protest and dissent in general, just say so.
In American politics, the Right is always Wrong, and we will see what unfolds
Honestly, Jack.....Credence, how soon you forget?
May I remind you...
http://www.weeklystandard.com/obama-on- … cle/598251
Obama on OWS.No, Jack, I have not forgotten. Every President should support the right for anyone to peacefully protest within the confines of what is allowed under the 1st Amendment. Obama takes a stand in supporting the protest against the plutocrat and its abuses put upon our society. I am against them, as well. He also supported the Tea Party and their endless bitching, on principle. For the rightwinger, protests are only a problem when it comes from the left. Well, the Rightwinger had better be prepared because there is more of the same coming.
You keep missing this point, Jack... Here it is again:
You're completely missing the point; and now I realize that it is probably not an easy thing for you to see Trump as being just as much a puppet of the deep state as Obama was.
Diversify your media sources if you're so obsessed with this stuff that you just CAN'T walk away from it for long. Not so that you 'get the facts right'; but so that your mind gets a little less cozy in the manipulated rut that it is in.
Believe it or not, I don't even read much left-wing stuff anymore - because they ARE all crying so pathetically in their spilled milk, LoL! But, Trump basically pisses in it at the same time - TAUNTING them and making wild accusations that can be clearly-seen on Twitter.
Trump cares NOTHING about this country - only the agenda that he is on. He knows what he says will cause controversy and it is OBVIOUSLY what he wants. He manipulates the media in that way. The agenda that he is on is not necessarily the one that you think he is on. Hell, his agenda is not necessarily the one that HE thinks he is on, LoL!
AGAIN... anyone who believes that ALL the fault lies with one side or the other has been seriously manipulated. It doesn't seem that way because there are two completely opposing 'extreme' sides that are actually working toward THE SAME GOAL.
It is what the deep state does and have been doing for generations upon generations. Now is apparently the time to wake up.
You really should read this stuff as it comes, jack - especially since this is your post. Its good.I do think he cares considerably more than 'nothing' about this country. It comes with the territory of growing up in it, being successful in it, I mean, he has hung out with Presidents, lived a great life... one would like to think he has a positive outlook on the Nation.
And because he does have a huge ego, and a grand sense of himself, he might actually believe he is saving it (from decaying into a lesser nation, a weaker nation on the global stage). And it is possible that he is not an accepted 'insider' of the 'establishment' its hard to imagine that someone who is would go to such lengths exposing it as he ran for office, and as he struggles and complains against Congress (not just one party, but whatever party or person annoys him on any given day).
A loose cannon... that is hard to pin down on most issues... that can waffle and change course, hire someone one day and fire them the next. How much of this is manipulation and playing people off one another, and how much of this is perhaps a dangerous personality flaw, is what really is in question.
I have no doubt that SOME of what he does is deliberate to get the MSM to do what he wants them to do, and they are just not smart enough, or self controlled enough, not to give him what he wants. Just like how he chastises other politicians, or then befriends them (like meeting with Schu and Pelosi and being buddy buddy with them openly for the media) is done for deliberate reasons... the question is how much of this is deliberate, and how much of it is otherwise...
Only time will tell... obviously if he suffers some tragedy, you will know he wasn't a "deep state" front man. Or if the economy collapses from under him and sends America into a depression we can't even imagine that would also be a sign he doesn't have the "insider" support you are referring to.The deep state is not even SORT of beneath throwing one of their 'chosen' to the dogs after they use them up. They are the ultimate manipulative politicians; and making Trump into a martyr would play right into their hands (and probably send this country into a civil war - which would be a GOOD thing as far as they are concerned).
As much as I dislike Trump, there has been a couple of times I've been worried for him - just because he is a little more 'inexperienced' and seems to have a dangerous 'one-sided' perspective. It would help him a LOT to be able to step back a bit and get that broader perspective that he needs. Its not like I believe he would intentionally choose to be on the side of the deep state (although, neither do I think it is beneath him). In fact, he might be horrified if he thought for a moment that he was being used by them.
As I've said, if the talking points were new, I might agree with you. But they are not, they are still centered around things like racism and Conservative vs Liberal, etc. - plus, they are the same arguments WORLDWIDE. The deep state knows no new tricks. Trump plays into the creation of chaos among us. And since you can't see him as being someone they could manipulate, he makes a perfect pied piper for them.
Also, Trump didn't go into that office and do any assessments toward exposing the flaws of that office and/or our government - like I think many expected him to do. It would have been really nice for him to have got in there, reported to the rest of us civilians 'how things really are/work' - and then get to work fixing it.
He didn't do that - he got in there and acted like a bull in a china shop; busting out EO's as fast as he possibly could (many that benefited his businesses and/or business contacts) without considering all kinds of interconnected things - not the least of which was the rest of the country who didn't vote for him (a majority) not being able to trust him for LOTS of really good, VALID reasons.
He could shut a whole bunch of people up JUST by releasing his tax returns. If it turns out that there is nothing wrong - trust for him would go UP. But, he obviously isn't interested in that.
He cares absolutely nothing about uniting us - division is obviously his goal; and he does it with a smile on his face. It is something that literally makes him happy - he feeds off of it. Its why he can't let go of twitter. He really enjoys all the buttcheek pats he gets there, ha!
Again... We just need to hang on and not let the deep state provoke us into an even bigger mess that they will have to 'save' us from... Which is exactly what they are trying to set us up for in order to get a 'regrip' on & restructure our society to suit their agendas. Again.For the first part there, you are assuming a lot if you think I see him as someone they can't manipulate, or as someone that might not actively be agreeing to their demands. I know, that I don't know.
For the second, you have said that before, I am not sure what you expect, technically every riot that has occurred since the election has been funded by others that wanted to sow discontent, at least half of them were staged... and Las Vegas was clearly not the work of one man, its beyond question a staged event.
If the 'deep state' is going to declare war on the people, I don't see what the people are going to do about it. If they come to your door, and take you away because they don't like the posts you are making on the internet (like they are doing in England and Germany) and taking away your possessions, your rights, what are you going to do?
How many people do you think can disconnect from the world around them, their homes, their tvs, their cars, their families and move? Or resist?
What is going on in England and Germany today, if successful, if there isn't significant backlash from it, will be done here tomorrow, and discussions like you and I are having right now will no longer exist on the internet.Well, the way you seem to have so much confidence about Trump not being used by the deep state makes me think that you don't think he is capable of being manipulated by it. My bad if I've read your stuff wrong.
It is entirely possible & probable that if stuff like this is going on in England and Germany - it is probably already here; or it is on the way here. (I totally agree with you about Las Vegas.)
All kinds of crap is potentially going to be happening as a result of the shadow government throwing this one last huge hissy fit. The deep state is already caving in; but that doesn't make them less dangerous - like a wounded animal, they are even more dangerous. They will do everything they can to go out with a bang; and take as many of us with them that they can. And if they can destroy this world to the point of it being unrecognizable while they are in the process of dying, even better!
However, I really hate to keep bringing up the Law of Attraction because I know it irritates a lot of you... (Its NOT a religion, it is an 'accessory' to religions or life - however you want to view it.) BUT, IF you are vibrating (vibration equals emotion - energy in motion) at a higher frequency than the frequency of - 'hate', for example - you will not (and cannot) be directly affected by it, anymore than you could listen to two different radio stations on the same radio at the same time.
Emotions are way more important than we ever knew... They are nothing less than the physical-translation of the 'pure energy' part of us as we compare it to our mind's beliefs surrounding any issue. They are both 'guidance' and our way to 'reach for' what we want out of life.
Have you ever been really frustrated about not being able to find something; and then came back later and it was right where you thought it should be? You were 'vibrating' at a lower frequency because of being emotionally-irritated (it is likely that you were already irritated about something to begin with); and then after you relaxed, your vibration naturally raised a bit - and you found it, seemingly like magic! "I LOOKED there, I KNOW I did!"
Another really good example... on 911, when those planes struck the towers... As tragic as that was, there were so MANY MANY more people who would normally have been in them at that time of day. The ONLY people who died in the twin towers were people who either 1) pre-CHOSE to die at that time for any number of reasons that had to do with their 'intentions' for this life; or 2) were vibrating on some level at the frequency of that destruction. (We never actually die - we just go on & on & on like the energizer bunny, LoL!)
Maybe the storm troopers will come for your neighbors - but if you know who YOU are; and what you are capable of - they literally CAN'T come for you; because they won't be able to connect with you SIMPLY because you are on a different frequency than they are.
I know, seems like mumbo jumbo and certainly way too simple... Really?! Just 'raise my vibration' and stop worrying about the deep state - and it will eventually die out?
Yup, this is the current spiritual prescription (not mine) for ALL of our unwanted delimnas, LoL! Giving your attention to anything gives energy to it; but we humans can CHOOSE what we think about and how we think about it. Raising your emotional attitude ALSO (and as importantly) 'attracts' much more satisfying realities to yourself; and also indirectly affects the people around you in good ways.
Life is actually meant to be very simple. We humans (with significant deep state assistance) have complicated it WAY beyond the telling of it, LoL!My mistake, I was referring to something that is probably not well known here in America. The short of it, arrests for making offensive posts online are way up in the UK and Germany, especially if it is anti-Muslim, at the same time arrests for violent crimes are way down, despite the fact that violent crimes have increased substantially.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ar … 64246.html
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crim … -9fsgwnxj0
No I actually appreciate your elaborated efforts to explain how we vibrate, how we are energy, sound, and what we tune into is what we attract, or repel... there is substance to what you are saying, the most brilliant minds have spoken about it, the most peaceful and happy people in the world live according to it, and I would be well served to spend more of my time learning about it, and less of my time discussing politics.
If you keep bringing it up enough, it will probably start sinking in, like a subliminal message, see something or hear something often enough, etc. etc.Those of us who were already aware of the LoA have probably been some of the people who have had the most difficulty dealing with the idea of Trump. The LoA is meant to be easy - BUT it isn't, because we've been 'programmed' to go against the 'guidance' we are naturally born with.
Ideally:
1) Someone like Trump comes along
2) You become irritated
3) You realize you don't want to be irritated
4) You use that irritation to 'push off' toward what you DO want.
Sounds simple, right?
So, while you have seen me go off about things like racism & misogyny... There are these alarms going off in my head that are screaming, "You're making things WORSE!" Emotions are like wild animals sometimes, LoL!
The Law of Attraction is 'in your face' TAME; but sounds scary because - religions, much?! It is actually mindbogglingly simple and easy to relate to - because you can often look back on your own life and see where it has worked. It is the reason why I can't 'let myself off the hook' and continue to act like that (to that extreme, anyway). Because I have seen it work. DAMMIT!!
The fact is, we all have our individual lessons to learn from Trump (whatever they are); and you can't get there from here... If your emotions are wound up tight about something, you HAVE to unwind them OR find a way to completely release them (or suffer the consequences) - and neither thing is easy to accomplish if you are a normal-ish human living in this world.
I've had people tell me that it is a pollyanna concept; but there is NOTHING pollyanna-ish about the LoA, LoL! If it helps at all, however... When you are 'going with the flow' and have things in perspective, I can tell you that it is one of the most content, satisfying, lasting & contagious feelings - even when things are going nuts around you. Its like nothing can touch you.
Trump HAD to be a brazen a*s or he would never have been able to grab so many people's obsessive attention out of their haze. Wake up calls are good things no matter how much you hate them, ha!There are always two things to Trumps success at being elected, his bombastic aggressive attacking style against those that so many of us realize are the problem, the McCain, Waters, Pelosi, Reid, the corrupt, criminal, traitorous to the people politicians that have been in Congress for 30 years or more.
30 years!!! ... THEY brought us the repeal of Glass Steagall, NAFTA, the Bank Bailouts, endless war with no end... 30 years of doing everything they could to give away this nations wealth, industrial might, while willingly endorsing the senseless murder of millions, and amassing an insurmountable debt on the nation.
And of course... the alternative, who was the poster child of the corrupt establishment sycophants. That's why despite all the MSM effort to make people believe there is this awful battle going on against the Left/Liberal/Progressive/Communist side (Dems) and the Conservative/Nationalist/Right side (Reps) ... I believe there is a very large amount of people that are anti-establishment, who don't buy into the phony BS political games of Dem vs Rep anymore, and they made the difference.
Yes, despite Trump seemingly to be everything you may dislike, he may be exactly the type of person needed, and who knows how much of a change he has really made... if Clinton had been elected perhaps we would be in WWIII right now with Russia (and perhaps Iran and China). Perhaps the economy (and stock market) would have gone into the tank again. We just don't know because Trump has more or less been exactly what many hoped he would be, the human molotov cocktail thrown right into the heart of D.C.
"He could shut a whole bunch of people up JUST by releasing his tax returns. If it turns out that there is nothing wrong - trust for him would go UP."
Do you really believe that - that if there's nothing wrong trust would go up? Because I think back to Obama releasing his birth certificate, whereupon the only people being quiet about it were the ones {already[/i] accepting he was born in the US. The others just promptly claimed it was fraudulent - the exact same kind of comment I would expect to see about tax returns. I just can't see them doing anything but making public private business dealings and giving his business opponents a giant leg up on "competing" with him.
But then I haven't thought of any other reason folks want to see them - they aren't going to show anything we don't already know. Now if you could get into the bookkeeping records of all his businesses, it might be different, but tax returns just aren't that detailed. That's what audits are for - to go over the details and prove the claims made on the 1040 are true.You know, we could argue about every little detail until the cows come home and never get anywhere because we're STUCK on individual idiosyncrasies. Obama's birth certificate isn't even something that compares; because he DID submit the SAME DAMN VERSION of it that every president before him had submitted - and it wasn't good enough for conspiracy theorists.
Talk about a created diversion... Obama is gone. You can stop fearing him, now.
At this point in time, you're right - Trump releasing his tax returns probably would not help MUCH; but it would help a bit - AND it would have helped a whole lot more IF he would have done it at the beginning like he SAID HE WOULD DO.
That one issue would be off the talk show circuit; and more people would find it easier to believe that he is not a corrupt fraud. It is a simple courtesy for the American people - the majority of whom he does not respect, which is one of the really BIG reasons why this country is in the ugly state that it is in right now.
I am not sure of Obama's motives, or why he chose from the start of his Presidency until the end of it, to constantly criticize and chastise the police in the manner that he did (and in ways that could be construed by others, like BLM, as permission to continue in their violent ways to resist/fight the LAWFUL authority that police had). To some degree I can understand it, doubly so because of his background as a community organizer in one of the tougher parts of Chicago... his experiences would have leant him to such a predisposed outlook.
As for the Russian scandal, I still don't get how people can try and tackle this issue, and not realize how much AMERICA interfered in the Russian, Georgian, Ukrainian elections in the years prior to 2016. How we ruined the lives of millions just in Libya and Syria for no good reason other than they were Russia's allies and not part of the 'western' community.
Why exactly is Russia our enemy again? Why exactly have we moved NATO's (American) troops by the tens of thousands right up against Russia's borders, constantly playing war games and flying jets all along Russia's western flank?
This was going on BEFORE the election, so if Russia did in any way interfere with the election, (it didn't hack it) by giving American's alternative sources of news (like Russian Times) and supporting in some way those organizations or efforts to support Trump, what of it?
Would that really be worse than Saudi Arabia's 30+ million dollars worth of donations to the Clintons?
Would that really be worse than the constant stories (proven and unproven) of Chinese businessmen giving the Clintons millions of dollars in support of their campaigns going all the way back to Bill's first campaign?
Really, can we put some perspective into this?Hi Ken, you make a point about the Russia election scandal that a couple of us have also made - just to run into the indignant righteousness of folks that have had their sacred cow gored.
Of course I don't want Russia interfering in our elections, particularly if that interference is direct vote tampering, but what I know of their activities - of what is known so far, is nothing different than the U.S. has been doing for decades. The Russians are just doing it 21st century style - online.
GAHi GA,
The Clintons feature prominently in past cases of US interference in Russian domestic politics. Including the latest election during 2011-12, SoS Clinton actually got right in the thick of it.
Putin accused Clinton of giving "the signal" to opposition leaders, who fomented mass protests. He rejected Clinton's repeated criticism of a parliamentary vote that gave Putin's United Russia party nearly 50% of the vote amid widespread reports of fraud.
-- "[Opposition leaders] heard the signal and with the support of the US state department began active work," Putin said during a meeting of the All-Russia People's Front, a new political movement set up to support his presidential candidacy in a 4 March election.
Clinton raised the issue of Russia's elections again on Thursday during a visit to Brussels. "Human rights is part of who we are," she said, after Putin's comments emerged. "And we expressed concerns that we thought were well founded about the conduct of the elections.
"We are supportive of the rights and aspirations of the Russian people to be able to make progress and realize a better future for themselves." --
But I think an even BIGGER issue for Putin and Russia than revenge for interference in the Russian election, in Ukraine politics, in Georgia politics, is NATO forces bringing themselves right up to the border of Russia all along the Western front.
Relatively unknown to Americans, because the media said nothing about it here in America, was a massive deployment of military forces along the Russian border prior to, during, and even after the election under the Obama Administration.
Take these watered down reports with a grain of salt, the deployment was more widespread, and began long before the NY Times piece.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/02/worl … putin.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world … 09736.html
Now lets consider this from Putin/Russia's position. America topples Iraq, a Russian ally. America topples Libya, a Russian ally. America tries to topple Syria (while trying to pretend not to do so, and hence we got Benghazi) a Russian ally.
America sells hundreds of billions of dollars of weaponry, tanks, artillery to former Soviet Bloc countries that it gets to join NATO, which America promised never to do when Gorbachev 'took down that wall'. And then along with those nation's military forces, deploys tens of thousands of our own tanks, artillery, soldiers and jets along the Russian border, during the election, and after.
Exactly how would you feel if you were Putin/Russia?I don't understand your point. Are you empathizing with Putin? Are we supposed to treat a murdering dictator like we would an ally? What are you getting at? Are you saying that we are equally as bad as Russia? What?
I am not sure how to accurately answer that question, as it would involve relating a wealth of information that would not really fit into this medium of discourse.
In order for me to properly answer we would have to establish a base of common knowledge. An acceptance of facts. For instance, how many millions we have killed or displaced with our interference in Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc. etc. Then we would have to establish if you believe there was righteous and patriotic reasoning behind these efforts, or if it was merely to secure the petrodollar's dominance and our control of the region.
If you fully believe we had altruistic reasons for our invasions and interference, including our interference in the elections I mentioned, without considering the economic motivations behind them, without considering who really benefits... certainly not the people of Libya, Syria or Iraq, their lives, their homes, their countries are in ruins... then I really see no point in discussing it at all, because our viewpoints, and our base of experiences and knowledge are too vast to bridge.That is a fair answer. I would say that, while I am aware of the hypocritical way we operate throughout the world, and the resulting chaos and misery our government has had a hand in, our current form of government still allows for much more freedom and opportunity for its citizens than does Putin's Russia.
Is that a sound enough base from which you could answer my questions?It helps me to zero in a bit, yes.
OK, so how I see Putin's Russia... in some ways the people are more free in Russia, and in some ways less so. There are more similarities than differences. Russians are more open minded, more likely to speak multiple languages, more likely to have a positive outlook on other people from other nations.
The Russian economy right now is worse off than ours, standards of living for a majority may be less, upward opportunity may be less... and this in large part has to do with 'Western' interference in their economy. Before the sanctions, before the petro-war and effort to destabilize the Russian economy by making oil far more affordable and cheap than it had been, before we started supplying the EU with American Natural Gas and the EU had to depend on Russia for it almost exclusively, the Russian economy was doing a MAJOR turn around under Putin, who was making great strides in modernizing the country.
But Putin chose to divorce himself from the IMF and foreign debt. and if you look throughout history this always goes badly for any country that tries to do so... ever since America itself fell under the control of the Federal Reserve in the early 1900s.
This lead to our efforts to isolate Russia, our efforts went to trying to remove all of its allies, be they in the Middle East, or on Russia's borders. This effort has been thwarted in large part because of its strengthening alliances primarily with China, but other nations as well. China is the key to Russia's survival however, and China as well realizes it cannot allow Russia to fall to the 'western' forces arrayed against it, because then it too, would be 'surrounded' only by forces which would/could oppose it at any time.
Of course this economic and military struggle that is going on goes largely unreported in America, and often what is reported is distorted or counter to the actual truth, but that is true for almost everything these days, and not isolated to Russia.
I can't say for sure how really good or bad things are now for Russians in Russia... but my experiences with them in the past were always positive, a very life loving people I found easy to get along with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK23RHXXlJ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhAKANOCcEwI don't really want to debate whether or not we have greater freedom in the U.S than in Russia. That is an entirely different subject. My original questions were:
I don't understand your point. Are you empathizing with Putin? Are we supposed to treat a murdering dictator like we would an ally? What are you getting at? Are you saying that we are equally as bad as Russia? What?Again, you need to clarify the question a bit more for me then, what am I supposed to be considering here? You say he is a murdering dictator, elaborate with the examples and reasons you want me to consider.
For example, I could say that Obama was a murdering leader. That he needlessly started wars against Libya and Syria, that he never ended the war in Iraq that he adamantly promised in 2007 he would do (we still have troops there right?), that he killed more people with drones than all other leaders in the world (including past presidents) combined. In total he is responsible for far more deaths and destruction than Putin.
By making that statement, now you would have a clear counter argument you could make, you could specifically look at the particulars, and counter them, as you wish. What am I supposed to counter with the statement 'Are we supposed to treat a murdering dictator like an ally?' What specifically qualifies him as a murdering dictator?
I will counter this however: "Are you saying that we are equally as bad as Russia? " with a counter question: What has Putin/Russia done that compares in any way, to the multitude of nations we have toppled militarily or overthrown through instigating revolution in just the last couple decades?
Misfit, you are always so close to seeing things as I do, even if you may think you oppose where I stand on the issues. So lets say that everything I quoted above is correct (not saying I 100% am in agreement) and consider WHO it is that is directing things to go the way they are going and WHY.
In order to really address the REAL problems we have, don't we need to get past the Democrat vs Republican, the Liberal vs Conservative?
Don't we have to be willing to realize that Congress answers to powerful corporations and banks (to say nothing of the Federal Reserve which is a private bank not controlled by the nation)?
Once we accept that fact, once we are educated enough to understand that of the 100 greatest economies on earth, 60 of them are Corporations or Banks, NOT nations... then we begin to realize who has the real power, and who benefits from destroying national unity, cultural identity, keeping people fighting amongst one another because of real or supposed past crimes against 'their people' generations ago, or because of religion, sex, or political ideology.
Politics (especially in the form of identify and separate) has become the new religion for a growing majority of Americans.
Religion has had a strong role to play in civilization and society in the past. However, the incredible speed with which technological advances have occurred over the last 100 years has put a strain on all social norms, on the fabric of civilization itself, most of all on religion.
And as more and more people, especially those with higher education, experience or IQ to entertain higher thoughts of cognizant reasoning and rationalization, disassociate themselves or deny Religion, a new way of controlling, or at least distracting the population had to be found.
Religion is still the best way to maintain control and give meaning to the majority of the masses. Also, extremist religious activity can give a sense of meaning, control, power, to men who have no purpose or self worth otherwise, this needs to be identified as a primary reason why Islamic beliefs are garnering such widespread acceptance and support in places like France, the UK, and elsewhere... where millions of young men stew without purpose in life or worth. But that is another matter.
There is an effort by a group of billionaires and trillionaires (like Soros) to feed the frenzy of divide, based on race, sex, political or religious belief. But Identifying WHAT the 'establishment' is would be required in order to fight it. Many dance around the issue, they come close, but they don't want to label it, don't want to truly identify it, for fear of being 'labeled' themselves.
Until people are willing to throw off the fears of labels and being identified, and are willing as well to rid themselves of irrational bias and hate, and just accept the facts, and speak the truth, plainly, openly without fear and without irrational hatred or bias, nothing will ever be accomplished to alter it.You're right, I agree with the majority of what you say except for 2 things:
"And as more and more people, especially those with higher education, experience or IQ to entertain higher thoughts of cognizant reasoning and rationalization, disassociate themselves or deny Religion, a new way of controlling, or at least distracting the population had to be found [through politics becoming the 'new religion' in the here & now]."
There have always been people of 'high-ranks' and otherwise who knew variations of what is actually going on in this world; along with hordes of people who do not - AND there have always been avenues of politics or social reform or philosphy, etc., for people who are not attracted to religions to be drawn to - plus, it is easy to draw people from religions into those more 'generic' things.
So, I don't agree with you that this is a 'new political wave' happening... If the talking points were new, I would be more prone to agree with you. But they are not, they are still centered around things like racism and (as you've said) Conservative vs Liberal, etc. People have always enjoyed debating politics; and it has ALWAYS been as much (if not moreso) an avenue of disinformation as it is 'helpful for the people'.
I don't see this election as being any different - other than it is so much easier for people to see just how chaotic things have become. I am someone who would have considered myself to 'be on top' of the situation as it was coming down (this 'deep state' stuff was not new to me) - but we were all in our own cozy little worlds thinking that there was nothing to worry about. We needed a wake-up call. I give Trump creds for that.
"But Identifying WHAT the 'establishment' is would be required in order to fight it."
That is SO not necessary... Although it is built into our human brains that we NEED to WORK HARD and FIGHT in order to change things the way we want them to be. Maybe you're right, but on the other hand... adding a little balance by doing a little 'good dreaming' about the way you actually want the short-term future to turn out might do more 'good' than you can currently imagine.
The deep state isn't going to fall by any 'physical' means (or not any 'one' physical war or whatever) - its WAY too damn gargantuan and DYNAMIC (think of a 'network' built throughout our society). It doesn't hurt to 'keep tabs' on it - just don't let yourself become so obsessed that the idea of it sucks you in. We have more control over our own lives than we have been led to believe - JUST because we are 'made of energy' and are 'energy in motion'. It has been one of the 'big secrets' - admittedly, among many - that have been kept from us.
The deep state exist because they created beLIEfs for them to exist upon... Those beliefs are crumbling. It is far more likely that the deep state will simply & eventually 'dissolve' without us realizing it - kind of like flour into gravy.
We just need to hang on and not let them provoke us into an even bigger mess that they will have to 'save' us from...
Excellent point. Bush and Obama have the credibility and responsibility to speak out against Trump. And yes, God bless John McCain.
And who funds OWS -
http://humanevents.com/2011/10/21/georg … ll-street/
No one funded The TEA party, it was a home grown grass root movement.Well its probably a good thing I don't watch it then, or any MSM/tv, and haven't for months now.
What I see of the news produced from TV shows is limited to an occasional youtube clip. And what I might catch in a restaurant or airport.
Actually reading news sources like the WSJ, and select sites on the internet, supply me with as much information as I feel I need. You should try it sometime, reading they say stimulates the brain.
- ahorsebackposted 7 years ago
0Media Today ;
"Reading they say stimulates the brain "............It's a pretty good bet that most people under forty or so in America not only are oblivious to real news , they don't know our history , they wouldn't know reality in politics if it bit them in the diapers . WE have reached an age where history has been RE-written by the education systems from the first grade up , the mainstream media is mostly tabloid filled liberal B.S. . Face Book is the only mentality in media that so many understand .
Who is really surprised that there are so many America haters here ? - ahorsebackposted 7 years ago0
Media Today ; My Opinion
"Reading they say stimulates the brain "............It's a pretty good bet that most people under forty or so in America not only are oblivious to real news , they don't know our history , they wouldn't know reality in politics if it bit them in the diapers . WE have reached an age where history has been RE-written by the education systems from the first grade up , the mainstream media is mostly tabloid filled liberal B.S. . Face Book is the only mentality in media that so many understand .
Who is really surprised that there are so many America haters here ?
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