Don't Argue FOR the healthcare change unless you've done this....

1. 69

   TimTurnerposted 13 years ago

   Ok, I'm tired of all the people that think your healthcare won't change for the worse with government run (or helped) healthcare goes through.
   
   But has anyone in this forum EVER went to a County or State hospital before?  Any of you?
   
   I have.  It was disgusting.  There was one doctor for about 30 people. 
   
   The equipment was old. 
   
   There were NO paper on the beds and the beds weren't wiped down between patients.
   
   The doctor didn't spend much time with me as he had many more patients to "see."
   
   The X-ray machine and screens were used for 4 patients without being cleaned (I sat there and watched just to make sure).  Four people's feet and legs were on the same X-ray screens without being cleaned.  How disgusting is that?
   
   I was there for 8 hours to talk to the doctor for less than 3 minutes!!!!
   
   And this was in Chicago, not some rural location.
   
   If you think that for one moment that the government can effectively run our healthcare, you are mistaken.  The government is inefficient at running most things (have you ever been to the motor vehicle division folks?).
   
   Expect long waits for procedures and expect your healthcare quality to go down.
   
   I don't expect it to get down to a County or State hospital quality but you never know.  And also don't expect your taxes not to rise.  They HAVE to.

   replyreport
   1. 59

      Pr0metheusposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you for arguing the point that health care reform is needed.
      
      Maybe you should clarify what you mean by saying "Don't argue for GOVERNMENT RUN health care", rather than "Don't argue for health care reform."  It is obviously needed.... or I guess we could just let those hospitals continue on operation the way they are now.

      replyreport
      1. 69

         TimTurnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Well, I don't think either way would keep the quality of care the same.
         
         The U.S. has been doing this way for so long that I think it's impossible to change.
         
         It's like how drinking at 16 is legal in a lot of Europe and their teens are responsible with it.  You can't do that here or all hell would break lose.
         
         We are set in our ways and changing big social paradigms, including healthcare, will be a mess either way.
         
         I would love for it to be free AND universal with higher taxes.  Can it be done?  I don't think so.  I hope one day though.

         replyreport
         1. 59

            Pr0metheusposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            So we should just throw up our hands and give up?  I think that's the worst 'solution' of them all.

            replyreport
            1. 69

               TimTurnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I just think there are bigger things to worry about right now.

               replyreport
2. 91

   livelongerposted 13 years ago

   Don't argue AGAINST health care insurance change until you understand that it's not about the government running all the hospitals.

   replyreport
   1. 69

      TimTurnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      The changes Obama wants to make will make it necessary for hospitals to change.  You are missing the point.
      
      Who is going to pay for all of this?  There will have to be drawbacks and cost cutting measures.
      
      Everyone loses and yet 100% of Americans still won't be covered.  Who will pay for their healthcare?  Taxpayers like they are now.
      
      Changing healthcare in this country will be a nightmare.  It will take 10 years or more and healthcare quality will decrease.

      replyreport
      1. 75

         AEvansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Interesting it appears that nobody in Canada nor Europe are complaining and I work in healthcare, I don't know about your hospitals in your area but our County hospitals are cleaned and maintained and they have some of the best doctor's and nurses working there. I have many friends who work for the state and county hospitals and many are even better then the funded ones. I believe that it is the location that a person lives and funds which causes it to be the way the are now.
         
         Many Americans would be covered which is far more then there are now, many cannot afford health coverage so it gives them a chance to get the right treatments. How many people do you know right now that have been denied health care coverage or do not have any? We have 100's of people who pass through our hospital that do not have any coverage which I simply find unfair.

         replyreport
3. 69

   jenblacksheepposted 13 years ago

   The healthcare system in America is crazy! I don't understand it. I mean I do understand it (I think), I just don't understand why you have it. All this business about having to have insurance or you don't get treated properly and then being stuck with massive massive bills at the end of it.
   
   After talking to some Americans I realised how lucky I am in England. I mean, people complain about the healthcare here; long waiting lists etc. but bloody hell ... its free! Especially with the current economic situation, what do you do in America if you can't pay your bills?

   replyreport
   1. 75

      AEvansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Do you know what they do here? Deny coverage and you have to pay out of pocket if you cannot pay out of pocket you are screwed. We are dealing with that right now with my husband and I work in healthcare it is disgusting!

      replyreport
      1. 69

         TimTurnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         That is actually not true.  You cannot be denied care if you don't have insurance.  Taxpayers end up paying for it once collections is processed against the person.
         
         And AEvans, if you think the county and state hospitals are even better than private ones, then why don't you use them next time.
         
         I promise you they are not better than private hospitals.
         
         And private hospitals won't be able to remain so private with the new healthcare.
         
         Of course other countries have better healthcare but they pay HIGH taxes for it.  I would love to pay HIGH taxes for universal healthcare in this country.
         
         But Obama's proposal is not universal and we still have to pay for health insurance.  In other countries, they dont have to pay for insurance.  They have free healthcare.
         
         Obama's plan is not free.  We still pay for insurance but at lower rates.  And it's not universal.
         
         You can't argue Obama's healthcare and compare it to another country.  Our's won't be anything like their's.

         replyreport
         1. 75

            AEvansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            First and foremost we have utilized those hospitals and they were not horrible at all but I am only defending ours as I cannot speak about other hospitals in other states.
            2. My husband was DENIED additional healthcare and we have mounting medical bills due to his cancer so do not tell me people do not get DENIED we did! I too am a taxpayer and where do you think that people who are denied healthcare are supposed to get the funds to pay the mounting bills? I honestly do not care if I have to pay taxes to cover others, for goodness sake the government gave the banks MEGABUCKS and at least my tax dollars will go to others who are struggling with there medical bills which I would rather give then to the BANKS! How do you know ours would not be like theirs nobody has given it a chance to be implemented all of us are to busy complaining while thousands of people are left for DEAD!

            replyreport
            1. 69

               TimTurnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Well of course he was denied coverage for cancer.  I was talking about emergencies.  I'm sorry for that.
               
               I have zero problem paying higher taxes for FREE and UNIVERSAL coverage but that is not Obama's plan.  We still have to pay for medical insurance and 17 million will still be uninsured which means we will still be paying for their medical care as taxpayers.
               
               I would LOVE to have it like Europe but that is simply not Obama's plan.

               replyreport
               1. 75

                  AEvansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Here is what you should do, email the White House over and over until someone listens you can speak for all of us and let them know how it should work. If it worked like other Countries then I am in. 17 million uninsured is far to many everyone deserves healthcare.

                  replyreport
                  1. 69

                     TimTurnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     I agree but it would be a way bigger right to get free and universal healthcare than it is trying to pass Obama's plan.
                     
                     I might just become Canadian or English for the health care  haha

                     replyreport
                     1. 0

                        A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Canada's health care may be changing to a more private system.

                        replyreport
                        1. 78

                           Uninvited Writerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           There are some who would like that, but many more that do not want it. It's an ongoing fight.
                           
                           And...to others...I've never had to deal with rationed health care...

                           replyreport
                           1. 0

                              A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              I just heard that recently, I would think with the long wait lists you would want a more timely service.

                              replyreport
                              1. 78

                                 Uninvited Writerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 Well, I wouldn't be able to afford private health care so it is moot... Personally, I have not had to wait for any treatment, I guess I've been lucky.
                                 
                                 I wouldn't be against those who can afford it getting private treatment like in England.

                                 replyreport
                                 1. 0

                                    A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                    I pay for my health insurance and have never had my premiums raised or been denied any care. Maybe what we hear of each others health care problems or not as bad as they have been portrayed.
                                    
                                    At least the 80% of Americans who are happy with their insurance would agree with me.

                                    replyreport
                                    1. 59

                                       Pr0metheusposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                       My PPO tried to deny coverage for me once... they ended up paying anyways.

                                       report
                                       1. 0

                                          A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                          I guess you fall into that 20%

                                          report
                                          1. 59

                                             Pr0metheusposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                             Well, they ended up paying in the end, so I dunno.  My premiums have only gone up once, but that was because I switched to a better plan.  I don't think that counts.

                                             report
                                             1. 0

                                                A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                                It doesn't

                                                report
            2. 59

               Pr0metheusposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Apparently death panels already exist...

               replyreport
      2. 0

         Poppa Bluesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Not for nothing but Medicare denies 6% of it's claims, more than any of the big HMOs!
         The real problem with health care is that the patients are out of the picture while the doctor and the insurance company negotiates the payment. Back in the old days if you got sick you went to the doctor and you asked questions, how much will the test cost, do I really need this is there something I can do that's cheaper, etc. You then paid the doctor and submitted the bill to you insurance which typically covered 80%. Making the patient responsible for the payment and the doctor responsible for the care places real market limits on demand for services. As it is now we have managed care and patient go to the doctor for any little thing and take all kinds of tests because "they have insurance" and it doesn't cost them anything.
         
         Government care won't fix that, except by rationing care! And they will ration care! I have experienced this personally with the VA, and it's quite evident in Canada and the UK.

         replyreport
   2. 60

      dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      What you are describing Jen, is Insurance Company Fraud, refusing to pay. The care is excelent, but the Hospitals and Doctors charge high. Thats the argument, do we really need health care changed, to the worse, or do we need Insurance and Hospital Business practice reform.?
      
      and If you can not afford it you go without, or ruin yourself financialy with a hughe bill you can not pay. It is not good, and what is being proposed will not stop the Co's from using loop-holes to worm out of paying.

      replyreport
   3. 60

      tksenseiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      No, no it's not.

      replyreport
      1. 0

         A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         They will never get it not worth your time

         replyreport
4. 80

   bgpappaposted 13 years ago

   Cost cutting, long waits for procedures, no time with your doctor, higher costs....
   
   How is this any different than the current healthcare system?  I have insurance, I pay good money for it, all of these things occur now.  Only the drawbacks are to raise profits.  How is that better?

   replyreport
   1. 69

      TimTurnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Those profits pay for the doctors salary.  Why do you think so many of U.S. doctors are foreigners?  They get paid better here than anywhere else because we DON'T have government run healthcare.  Hospitals can afford to pay them higher salaries for better care.
      
      Do you still want to pay for health insurance when your doctor isn't the most qualified?

      replyreport
5. 0

   L. Andrew Marrposted 13 years ago

   I live in England and it works perfectly here -
   
   Apparently we have the 17th best healthcare in the world
   
   The USA is number 34 in the world.
   
   The top two are France and Italy - both have public healthcare.
   
   I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion but in mine public healthcare is fantastic. I personally have private healthcare because of my Dad's job but that is only if I need something huge doing (like I had a nose op. about 5 years ago - ironically now my nose is completely buggered now because they did such a crud job). Whenever I break something, or damage myself, I go to A&E at the public hospital where, granted I wait for a long time, but they fix me up nicely.
   
   Mind you, once my nose wouldn't stop bleeding so I went to A&E and the doctor said: "I think I know what the problem is, I think your nose is bleeding"
   
   Mind you, that's more against the doctor than the health care system.

   replyreport
   1. 69

      TimTurnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Andrew, I would LOVE to have healthcare like England or other European countries.
      
      But Obama's plan isn't like yours.  We would still have to pay for insurance to get coverage.  There will be 17 million Americans without coverage with Obama's plan.  It's not Universal like it is in England.
      
      You guys pay higher taxes to get that coverage.  Obama claims not to raise taxes but it's not universal either.
      
      If Obama's plan was universal healthcare for all and raised our taxes, I would be all for it.  But it's not.  We would still have to pay for medical insurance (cheaper costs) but if you can't afford insurance, you are still in the same situation which will be 17 million Americans.

      replyreport
      1. 0

         L. Andrew Marrposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Ah, that is fair enough. I just disagreed with your comment that state hospitals generally suck. They may do where you are but generally, all over the world, they work.

         replyreport
         1. 69

            TimTurnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Yeah, it's not the same here as it is in England.
            
            Wow, now I see why a lot of people outside of the U.S. think we are crazy for fighting Obama's plan.
            
            You guys don't realize it's not free and universal.  We still have to pay for insurance but it's supposed to be cheaper.

            replyreport
6. 0

   L. Andrew Marrposted 13 years ago

   Oh yeah, I forgot to source my information. Basically the rankings are from the World Health Organisation website.

   replyreport
7. 39

   michael1marsposted 13 years ago

   Heres an easy trick save up and move to Canada.

   replyreport