Do not ignore the war in the Ukraine. It could expand to the U.S.

1. 95

   Readmikenowposted 6 years ago

   Right now President Trump is meeting with Vladimir Putin. The Ukrainian people are very worried. President Trump has supplied important weapon systems and more for Ukraine's battle against the Russian separatists.  He has also not said anything about Russians leaving Crimea.  I hope he keeps his promise of telling Putin he supports Ukraine.  Many people in the United States don't know the Russian mindset. They believe they should be able to take over their neighboring countries.  In the Ukraine, Crimea has been annexed and there is a war that has lasted over 4 years and has caused more than 10,000 deaths and displaced over 2 million people.  Russia is not building up forces along its boarder with Poland as well as Georgia.  If Russia desires to overrun these countries, even together, they could not stop it.  If Russia succeeds in taking over eastern European countries, it will spread to western Europe and then it would involve the United States.  I would like to see more about the Ukrainian war in the U.S. media.  It is a very bad situation.

   replyreport
2. 0

   ahorsebackposted 6 years ago

   Russians transgressions go unchecked when there is weak leadership in the US .  Much like his puppet governments all supported by him in the  in the middle east , Putin  ONLY respects diplomatic oppositions based on strong US leadership .     From Reagan to today's Trump  leadership  Russia has not only  been proven to fold under direct , strong , proven criticism BUT has increased it's regional spread under weak leadership in the US  [Obama }. Putin needs and wants to get  into the G7 and will promise , if nothing more , to tow the line .

   replyreport
   1. 95

      Readmikenowposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      ahorseback,
      
      It is more complicated.  President Trump has given Ukrainians reason to cheer with things he's said, then sent them into deep despair with other things.  Here is a good article from the Atlantic, it is close to what is happening. 
      
      https://www.theatlantic.com/internation … ne/565235/

      replyreport
3. 76

   Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago

   There has been a long a bad history between Ukraine and Russia. To add Americas mischievous plans to add fuel to the fire, is not good.

   replyreport
   1. 95

      Readmikenowposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I never thought I'd agree with you, but you are absolutely correct.  I don't know if there are mischievous plans as much as their is a lack of desire to act. During the Obama administration, U.S. Senators, including John McCain went to Kyiv and stated at a public rally their support for Ukraine, then did next to nothing. We'll see what the future brings, hopefully a continued free Ukraine.

      replyreport
4. 0

   ahorsebackposted 6 years ago

   Of course it's complicated or there would be no issue , it would have been solved already.      When Californika secedes will Russia interfere ?  No more than to support communist ideologies  and then back off.   Yet , America does the same .
   
   What we won't do is anything more .

   replyreport
5. 95

   Readmikenowposted 6 years ago

   Well, I wanted to tell everyone, I got contacted by a lot by people in the Ukraine after President Trump's public appearance with Putin. Some are rather angry. They wanted President Trump to stand up to Putin and put him in his place.  They wanted to see the war in Ukraine to be addressed.  I don't know what to tell them.  I said negotiating with someone like Putin will be complicated.  I don't think anything good would come from President Trump being combative with Putin.  I think the blind hatred of Putin by many Ukrainians I know is keeping them from seeing the bigger picture.  Much strong language was exchanged during my conversations.

   replyreport
   1. 0

      ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      You friends in the Ukraine must suffer the very same political delusions as the American left ?

      replyreport
      1. 95

         Readmikenowposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         ahorseback, It's not that simple.  These are people who have had their soldiers die fighting Russians and separatist for the past four years.  If Russia was to leave Ukrainian territory in the East tomorrow, the Ukrainian Army would defeat the separatists in a short time.  They don't understand our boarder issues when their boarder issue is having the second largest military in the world over their boarder trying to overrun their country.  So, they wanted President Trump to speak about the war and take a strong stand against Russia.  That would have motivated Ukrainians very much. Since President Trump did not do such a thing, they are confused and worried.

         replyreport
         1. 0

            ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            The Ukraine was one of the original Russian founders , a state of USSR right ?  What will Putin do about the secession of California or New York if and when ? Will he speak to them in USA -- Russian summits ?Doubt it.
            It is much deeper than we know .

            replyreport
            1. 95

               Readmikenowposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               You need to read some history.  Ukraine has been a free and independent country since 1991.  It is not similar to being a state in the United States.  When that happens, people of a territory vote to join the United States.  Russia only had Poland, Ukraine, Georgia, etc. because of military control.  No state of the former Soviet Union voted to be part of the Soviet Union. Your statement shows a total lack of understanding of the situation.

               replyreport
               1. 0

                  ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  So you think American states are held together by something other than a strong federal military , economic and political glue?   Perhaps you need the history book not I . Ukraine being soviet "free " since 1991  isn't a lot of history to demand US  intervention  for ,   I just love it when one is willing to become instantly hypocritical  for patriotism ,   If for instance Vietnam was a gargantuan mistake for America to involve itself in - what would be the political ramifications for sending US troops into the Ukraine?
                  Yea , I know , let's just send them arms and money ?

                  replyreport
                  1. 95

                     Readmikenowposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     In English, citizens of territories in the United States have voted to become part of the United States. The Soviet Union was made up of territories controlled by Russian military.  Either you can comprehend the difference or you can't. Read about the Hungarian revolution of 1956.  There was also the uprising of Poland against Russia. You don not know history.  Please stop acting as if you are anything but ignorant of it.  NOBODY is asking for U.S. military intervention.  Where do you come up with this stuff?  Stick with the facts.  President Trump has great power to get Putin to back away from the Ukraine, Poland and other eastern European countries.  This will benefit western Europe as well as the United States and provide stability.

                     replyreport
                     1. 95

                        wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                        What "great power" do you do you see Trump having to force Russia to leave these countries alone?

                        replyreport
                        1. 95

                           Readmikenowposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                           Good question.  There is economic pressure as well as placing a military base in the eastern European countries that are members of NATO.  These include Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic and others.  It would also help if the Ukraine was permitted to join NATO as was promised by Obama.  That would force Russia to make some difficult decisions.

                           replyreport
                           1. 95

                              wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                              I would have to say that Russia is perhaps the most self-sufficient country in the world today with massive natural resources.
                              
                              That leaves military action, whether by the US rattling its sabres (spending our resources to build bases to protect Europe) or actual bullets flying.  Don't forget that the cold war was won by encouraging Russia to build a military it could not afford - the US already provides twice what any other nation does to NATO, in terms of % or GDP - how much can we afford before our own military destroys us?

                              replyreport
                     2. 0

                        ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                        I know one thing the lack of intelligence isn't on the part of me or Trump sticking his nose where it doesn't belong  ,as with the USSR and Vietnam , I know enough to know the Ukrainian people have to do their own fighting by a majority before another  nation can submit blood and treasure to that cause .
                        When you attend the college of international politics and attain a degree in diplomacy , let us know .
                        
                        If America jumped into every internal political situation or regional conflict in the world  we'd then be at war with every country in the world instead of too many already  , grow up !
                        
                        If you are of Ukrainian decent and this is so important to you and your friends , go back to the Ukraine and  commit yourself to your own people and  fight your own civil wars , you can't do that from from America , safe as you apparently are here  .

                        replyreport
                        1. 95

                           Readmikenowposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                           You did not either read or understand what I've written.  It is obvious your ignorance has no limits.  Please stop responding on this thread. You can do nothing but provide pointless writing.  if you have a degree in diplomacy, it is only proof that an educated person can still be a very unintelligent person.

                           replyreport
                           1. 0

                              ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                              "Please stop responding ?".......Are you for real . How about you justify why America needs to involve itself in the Ukraine militarily when the Ukraine isn't even committing its own majority to this ? While opposing enemies rest as idle enemies hundreds of feet apart because of recent treaties ?   Why does America need to clean up a Ukrainian mess as in civil war ?    The USA should commit to break treaties in place now..........? Who's the real ignorant one here ?

                              replyreport
                              1. 95

                                 Readmikenowposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                                 Again, you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the Ukraine.  It is sad. People such as yourself have no ability to engage in a beneficial debate.  You can only annoy people as you display how little you know about the topic being discussed.  I am confident people can look at your responses and feel as sad for you, and your lack of intelligence and I do.

                                 replyreport
                                 1. 0

                                    ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                                    For one thing there angry man  ".........friends from Ukraine tell me ........." Tells me -that YOU have a personal agenda in demanding somehow that Trump should push  Putin's Buttons about the Ukraine , not only that but Trump should what , arm a sizable civil resistance force there ?   
                                    
                                    America leadership engages in military , political and diplomatic  rhetoric constantly ,  outside of and behind closed doors ,  So you don't even know how much or how little Trump pressured Putin  or supplies arms or economic support TO the Ukraine ,   
                                    
                                    "......You don''t know what you're talking about ......." Well , I know this , The Ukraine is MORE within the political and military  geo-strategic sphere of Putin's Russia than it is inside of  America's   , the Ukraine was and is a direct interest of Russia , in military , in economic and in geo-political  probabilities.
                                    
                                    What you're suggesting is the equivalent of a Russian citizen in Russia  demand that Russia inject itself in the debate or possibility in eventual secession of California from the  United States by supplying military , political and economic aid - Tell me I'm wrong ?
                                    
                                    AS you  tell me ".......you can only annoy people
                                    as you display how little you know .........."   I can tell you this ,    It is MORE than obvious how little YOU know about the negotiations or interactions between superpowers ,one and Two , How little you have learned about the similarities between what you apparently wish for and the incredible lessons of the US's and Russia's engagements  in similar situations  like Vietnam  ! Perhaps you need to read some history and if you have , you should have retained exactly what you've read .
                                    
                                    No Mike ,  It isn't my lack of intelligent in comparing , IT IS however our personal knowledge and sacrifices in the lessons of Vietnam , and NOT creating more of them . America has sacrificed enough blood and treasure in frivolous engagements  ,   You and I would be far ,far better engaged in supporting diplomatic solutions to regional conflicts .
                                    
                                    Please though , Do not feel ashamed in that I just rightfully showed you how to truly debate  politics  and not personally  attack one you don't agree with . Of course in America that has become a very liberal debating trait and I don't blame you for following that lead .

                                    replyreport
                                    1. 92

                                       crankaliciousposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                                       That's "lack of intelligence" not "lack of intelligent".

                                       report
                                       1. 0

                                          ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                                          Thanks teach'.

                                          report
                                    2. 95

                                       Readmikenowposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                                       Yes, I have friends and family in the Ukraine.  This means I can provide you insight into the situation beyond what you see in the news. I am able to communicate with people who live it.  I also know with your proven lack of ability to comprehend the discussion, you have proven my point. You do NOT know what you are talking about.  There is NO similarity between Viet Nam and the Ukraine.  If you knew the truth, you would know the Ukrainian government does NOT want American troops in the country. Do you know this? Ukrainians know if American troops help them directly, it would lead to all-out war involving many countries.  Having Trump inform Putin he is solidly behind the Ukraine is important.  Letting Putin know if Russia expands, the U.S. will expand is also important.  Again, your ignorance of the Ukraine and its relationship with Russia only proves my point that you know NOTHING about what you speak.  You are not able to have a worthwhile discussion.  You can only annoy people with your lack of respect, manners and ignorance.

                                       report
                                       1. 0

                                          ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                                          And you just contradicted yourself genius , You say Ukraine doesn't want US intervention and knows about Vietnam --  BUT "--".... If Russia expands then America will expand ........"  Did you not just write that ?
                                          
                                          Like I said and you horribly contradict , Vietnam .
                                          
                                          Want to debate -better learn HOW to debate,   you cannot defeat my argument  !   If you can't debate with the big dogs without losing your cool maybe you'd better say on the porch angry man .

                                          report
                     3. 92

                        crankaliciousposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                        Mike, I heard a comment yesterday that said that Donald Trump has absolutely no interest in foreign diplomacy or in the U.S. foreign interests as it applies to national security.
                        
                        Donald Trump's interest is Donald Trump. What's good for Donald Trump is good for America (he sees himself as the best representation of America - successful, rich; etc. - so what's of personal importance to him should be of importance to America). This may or may not be true in terms of his outlook, but it certainly seems that way. What relevance is Ukraine to Donald Trump? Does he have business there? Friends there?
                        
                        We know he has business interests in Russia, so it's in his best interest to make friends with Putin and Russia, which is what he's doing. I think we know definitively that if US/Russia relations were better, Trump's business would be better. It might be in the country's best interest too. Who knows? I just don't see the Ukraine being of interest to him or affecting his business in any positive way since what's good for Ukraine isn't good for Russia.
                        
                        I'm not trying to make a value judgement here. I'm merely trying to figure out his national security ideology.

                        replyreport
                        1. 95

                           Readmikenowposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                           To that, I say, so what?  I would like people to remember history.  Prior to World War II, the United States and Europe ignored what Nazi Germany was doing, and they did many things.  World War II may not have occurred if Europe stopped Hitler moving into Austria in 1936.  Putin is massing troops along its boarder with other eastern European countries. As Hitler annexed countries, I would like to point out Russia has annexed Crimea.  If this war is not dealt with in a strong way right now, the United States and Europe will be forced to face something much worse in the future.

                           replyreport
                           1. 92

                              crankaliciousposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                              All I'm saying, Mike, is that I doubt Trump will do anything about it.

                              replyreport
                              1. 95

                                 Readmikenowposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                                 I can see how this would appear to be the case.  I hope this is wrong.  He has done more than Obama, but nothing that helps in a big way.  I will say, if Trump wants to open some businesses in the Ukraine, his money would be very welcome, especially if that would make a difference.  All I can tell you for sure are that a lot of prayers are said daily in the Ukraine right now.

                                 replyreport
            2. 70

               Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

               Yes, it is.
               
               Russia was just fine letting Ukraine be, just like they are fine with all their other neighbors being independent.
               
               The Minsk II Agreements, which were agreed to by Russia, by the 15 member panel of the UN Security Council, and had France and Germany as guarantors, was never implemented by Ukraine.
               
               Ukraine leaders have since said they never intended to implement them, they used those negotiations to give them time to build up their army so they could take the fight to Russia and take by force the breakaway Donbas regions and Crimea, which was part of the Russian Republic.
               
               But as you say, it is far more complicated than that.
               
               Ukraine is an East European territory which originally formed a western part of the Russian Empire from the mid-17th century.
               
               
               
               The process of self-constructing identity of the Ukrainians after 1991 is basically oriented vis-à-vis Ukraine's two most powerful neighbors:
               
               Poland and Russia.
               
               In the other words, the re-constructing Ukrainian identity are neither Polish nor Russian but heavily influenced historically by both, throughout hundreds of years.
               
               Therefore, an existence of an independent state of Ukraine, nominally as a national state of Ukrainians, is, and always has been conflicted, from both perspectives: historical and ethnolinguistic.
               
               The Slavonic term Ukraine, for instance, in the Serbo-Croat case Krajina, means in the English language a 'Borderland', a provincial territory situated on the border between at least two political entities.
               
               In this particular historical case, between the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as the Republic of Both Nations (1569−1795) and the Russian Empire.
               
               In the other words, Ukraine and the Ukrainians as a natural objective-historical-cultural identity never existed as it was considered only as a geographic-political territory between two other natural-historical entities (Poland and Russia).
               
               Today, it is absolutely clear that the most pro-western and anti-Russian part of Ukraine is West Ukraine ... the lands that were historically under the rule by the Roman Catholic ex-Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the former Habsburg Monarchy.
               
               It is obvious, for instance, from the presidential voting results in 2010 as the pro-western regions voted for J. Tymoshenko while the pro-Russian regions voted for V. Yanukovych.
               
               It is a reflection of the post-Soviet Ukrainian identity dilemma between "Europe" and "Russia".
               
               In general, the western territories of the present-day Ukraine are mainly populated by the Roman Catholics, the East Orthodox and the Uniates. This part of Ukraine is mostly nationalistic and pro-western oriented. The East Ukraine is in essence Russophone and subsequently "tends to look to closer relations with Russia" [John S. Dryzek, Leslie Templeman Holmes, Post-Communist Democratization: Political Discourses Across Thirteen Countries, Cambridge−New York: Cambridge University Press, 2002, 114].
               
               In short, it is MY belief, that while we should have supported Ukraine in maintaining its independance.  We SHOULD NOT HAVE supported them in any way, in their attempts to reclaim Crimea or sabotage the Minsk II Agreement.
               
               We should have told Ukraine from the outset, accept Minsk II or you are completely on your own.
               
               If we had done that, hundreds of thousands would still be alive today that have died in this war.
               
               Hundreds of thousands more would not be crippled.
               
               And millions would still have homes in Ukraine, rather than being refugees elsewhere.
               
               Not to mention the economic woes the EU is contending with, now that they have been cut off from their source of cheap energy and raw materials that Russia provided.
               
               The Biden Administration is only determined to make this worse, for the world, as well as Ukraine.  The Biden Administration wants war with Russia, its not a matter of if... just when.

               replyreport
               1. 86

                  tsmogposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  Thanks, Ken! I  learned! History is important, isn't it? You point that out clearly with the above. I also see it here in the struggle with the native tribes. There is a history surrounding our expansion seeking manifest destiny. One could also look at the early treaties of the settlers with tribes during the formation of the colonies.

                  replyreport
                  1. 70

                     Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                     Very true, America became what it is today because we trampled on everyone and anyone that got in the way of its expansion.
                     
                     England, France, Spain, Mexico, to name the primary nations defeated during America's growth.
                     
                     Our more recent efforts destroying Iraq, Libya, Syria, don't put the nation in a better light in that regard.
                     
                     In any case, we don't belong in Ukraine, we don't belong supporting the continued escalation of the war there.  Cut off funding and supplying weapons and force Ukraine to the negotiation table.... that we chose not to do so, that we chose to support war rather than peace, is purely the choice of the Biden Administration.
                     
                     A discussion on how this escalated, a timeline of events since 1991 is below, some good bits of information you won't easily learn of elsewhere:
                     
                     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl0Y_ETTTf4

                     replyreport
                     1. 76

                        Castlepalomaposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                        Love Sachs views and presentation.

                        replyreport
               2. 76

                  Castlepalomaposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  +

                  replyreport
6. 0

   ahorsebackposted 6 years ago

   replyreport