We have a bigger fundamental problem if no one is held accountable...

Jump to Last Post 1-4 of 4 discussions (57 posts)
  1. jackclee lm profile image81
    jackclee lmposted 2 months ago

    The Trump investigation by Mueller is sign of a much bigger problem with our justice system.
    If someone like Hillary Clinton who has committed numerous crimes... can be “exonerated” by Comey and the FBI and DOJ, and a Trump who has been investigated for two years and no crime found and no evidence sufficient to warrant indictment, according to Mueller, is being considered for impeachment by the Democratic controlled Congress, with the cheering on by the media - then we have a problem big time...
    It is something that needs to be fixed.
    Someone needs to go to jail or else we are doomed.

    1. GA Anderson profile image93
      GA Andersonposted 2 months agoin reply to this

      Hi jackclee, good to see you back, but ...

      Vol.2 of the report, (relevant to obstruction), and Mueller's recent public statement do not support your claim that no evidence of a crime was found.

      GA

      1. jackclee lm profile image81
        jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

        But what crime of obstruction if there is no crime to obstruct?
        I hope you see the problem here.
        Suppose you are the President or any future president.
        And you are accused of some trumped up wrong doing which you know you did not commit.
        Suppose they start an investigation...and start to fish for all kinds of crime unrelated to the original charge...
        What would you do? Just sit back and let it happen?

        If you try and do anything, you would be accused of obstruction...
        Hence the dilemma...
        Where does one start and where dies one end?

        You can say Trump did something wrong but then where do you stop?
        Where did it originate?

        1. PrettyPanther profile image85
          PrettyPantherposted 2 months agoin reply to this

          Did you read the Mueller report?

          1. jackclee lm profile image81
            jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

            No I didn’t and I have no need to do so. I rely on AG Barr’s summary. He is a reputable person who has years of experience as a prosecutor...
            At some point, we need to leave the details to those who know the law and how to conduct investigations and apply the law. We are not lawyers or presecutors.

            1. PrettyPanther profile image85
              PrettyPantherposted 2 months agoin reply to this

              I was going to say that explains a lot, but I have a feeling even if you read it you would find some way to state that Trump did not obstruct justice and that the Trump campaign did not willingly accept help from the Russians.  Mueller cleared him and his campaign of the crime of conspiracy.  He specifically stated he did not clear him of obstruction and explained why he did not indict.

              1. jackclee lm profile image81
                jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                I heard what he said. And you don’t have any problem with that? Consider how Hillary was treated by the same FBI under Comey....
                Do you see any fairness or justice?

                1. jackclee lm profile image81
                  jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                  Obstruction is in the eye of the beholder. One person’s insurrection is another’s crime...

              2. promisem profile image97
                promisemposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                Funny how many times on here we have said what Mueller said:

                1. He did not clear Trump of obstruction.
                2. He could not indict.

                But some people keep ignoring those obvious facts. They keep changing the subject to Hillary.

                1. jackclee lm profile image81
                  jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                  Yes, would you be comfortable if the same was said about Hillary or any other public officials?
                  What are we to conclude?
                  Here is a guy who suppose to have spent 30 million dollars and 18 lawyers, investigating Trump and came up with less than sufficient evidence....
                  Unless there is hard evidence for a crime, I have no confidence in our justice department.
                  This is just toxic. Can you survive such scrutiny by our government?

                2. jackclee lm profile image81
                  jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                  Why not discuss Hillary in this context?
                  It is absolutely relevant.
                  If you don’t see it, than too bad. This goes to the whole concept of blind justice.
                  How two people are treated differently by one justice system.
                  That is why this whole affair is insidious.
                  My original post is clear.

                  Something is wrong here and our country needs to fix it.

                  1. promisem profile image97
                    promisemposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                    Whataboutism.

                    The Republican White House, Republican Congress and Republican Attorney General did not investigate, indict or jail Hillary when they had 2 full years to do so.

                    Rush Limbaugh and people like you keep claiming she committed crimes, but the Republican leadership knows better.

        2. jackclee lm profile image81
          jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

          On another point about what Mueller did. He basically told us he could not find anything...relating to Russian collusion.
          But Trump acted guilty and try to obstruct which again he could not find sufficient evidence to move forward.
          Therefore, he is letting it hang out and let Congress pick up the ball to proceed with impeachment...since that is the only legal way to remove a sitting president.

          This is not justice by my book.
          If Mueller had any sense of decency,  he should have stopped 1.5 years ago and said we found no collusion and there is the end of it. Instead, he allowed speculation to build and two years later said we found nothing but here is where Trump may have done something wrong...go figure it out. I wash my hand.

    2. Don W profile image84
      Don Wposted 2 months agoin reply to this

      The "bigger fundamental problem" is the current constitutional crisis.

      The White House is systematically subverting the Constitution by preventing Congress from carrying out its constitutional duty.

      Congress is the eyes, ears and voice of the American people in Washington. It has a duty to find out what crimes the president has committed in or out of office, if any, on behalf of the millions of people who want to know if the current president is a criminal. It must be allowed to do so.

      When the administration imposes what is effectively a blanket ban on officials testifying to Congress, it is not just sticking it to the Democrats. It's preventing Congress from representing its constituents, and directly contradicting its authority. That is nothing less than an attack on the Constitution and the democratic framework of the country.

      If the president has committed crimes, and the administration is using presidential powers to conceal them from Congress, and therefore the public, then the people are being defrauded. Conversely, if there are no such crimes, then it's in everyone's interest to know that. Either way, the Congress must be allowed to represent its constituents. The Constitution demands nothing less.

      Preventing that is in no one's interest. The only way it would be in Trump's interest, is if he has in fact committed the crimes he is accused of.

      1. jackclee lm profile image81
        jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

        Just because Trump is president, does not mean he is without the protection everyone of us enjoy and that is presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
        The way Congress is acting, it is looking for a crime that may or may not exist.
        It is called a fishing expedition and our Constitution does not allow it...

        1. Don W profile image84
          Don Wposted 2 months agoin reply to this

          "Just because Trump is president, does not mean he is without the protection everyone of us enjoy and that is presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

          Are you seriously suggesting that presumption of innocence means criminal allegations can't be investigated? How sensible do you think that is?

          And how does your opening comment that Hillary Clinton ". . . has committed numerous crimes", reflect the presumption of innocence Jack? Was there a conviction I don't know about? I thought presumption of innocence is a "protection everyone of us enjoy". Did you mean everyone one of us except Hillary Clinton? Does that seem consistent to you? 

          As for "fishing", serious allegations of criminal activity have been made against a sitting president by multiple sources (outside of Congress). I, and millions of others, want to know if those allegations are true. It's absolutely the constitutional duty of Congress to investigate and tell the public what it finds.

          Unfortunately Congress is being systematically prevented from doing that by the current administration. Again that's an attack on the Constitution, from which Congress' derives both its duty and its authority. Meanwhile a DoJ Special Counsel has uncovered, what appears to be, evidence of criminal obstruction by the president. That's a bit more than just fishing Jack.

          (1) https://hubpages.com/forum/post/4078478

          1. jackclee lm profile image81
            jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

            No, what is unfortunate is that we have a biased media and a biased Corrupt FBI which put their thumbs on the scale to favor Democrats like Hillary while going fishing after Republican like Trump.
            That is the reason our country is so screwed up...after Obama having corrupted the IRS, the FBI, and the DOJ and the NSA...

            1. Don W profile image84
              Don Wposted 2 months agoin reply to this

              Simple questions Jack. Do you believe the presumption of innocence means criminal allegations cannot be investigated?

              And are you suggesting that Congress has no right to act on behalf of all the people who want to know if the criminal allegations against the current president are true?

  2. IslandBites profile image87
    IslandBitesposted 2 months ago

    Second, many obstruction cases involve the attempted or actual cover-up of an underlying crime. Personal criminal conduct can furnish strong evidence that the individual had an improper obstructive purpose, see, e.g. , United States v. Willoughby, 860 F.2d 15, 24 (2d Cir. 1988), or that he contemplated an effect on an official proceeding, see, e.g., United States v. Binday, 804 F.3d 558, 591 (2d Cir. 2015). But proof of such a crime is not an element of an obstruction offense. See United States v. Greer, 872 F.3d 790, 798 (6th Cir. 2017) (stating, in applying the obstruction sentencing guideline, that "obstruction of a criminal investigation is punishable even if the prosecution is ultimately unsuccessful or even if the investigation ultimately reveals no underlying crime"). Obstruction of justice can be motivated by a desire to protect non-criminal personal interests, to protect against investigations where underlying criminal liability falls into a gray area, or to avoid personal embarrassment. The injury to the integrity of the justice system is the same regardless of whether a person committed an underlying wrong.

    In this investigation, the evidence does not establish that the President was involved in an underlying crime related to Russian election interference. But the evidence does point to a range of other possible personal motives animating the President's conduct. These include concerns that continued investigation would call into question the legitimacy of his election and potential uncertainty about whether certain events-such as advance notice of WikiLeaks's release of hacked information or the June 9, 2016 meeting between senior campaign officials and Russians could be seen as criminal activity by the President, his campaign, or his family.

    1. jackclee lm profile image81
      jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

      No, you are stretching what was implied...
      At no point did Mueller find any Russian influence to affect the outcome of the last election.
      The  Russians have been meddling in all our elections...
      It was the Obama Administration’s watch that this supposedly happened. Why didn’t they do more?
      You want to venture a guess.

      1. IslandBites profile image87
        IslandBitesposted 2 months agoin reply to this

        Huh?

        That's a copy/paste of the Mueller report.

        1. jackclee lm profile image81
          jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

          If you think there is wrong doing by Trump, I invite you and the Democrats to proceed with impeachment. Bring it on.
          There is no other way to settle this quagmire.
          Here is my prediction.
          Just like Clinton, Trump will be acquitted of any impeachment proceedings and in fact will be more popular than ever. Just like Bill Clinton...

          Why didn’t Mueller make a recommendation for impeachment?

          1. jackclee lm profile image81
            jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

            Let me answer that in case you are still clueless.
            He did not find “sufficient evidence” after 2 years...

            1. IslandBites profile image87
              IslandBitesposted 2 months agoin reply to this

              You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. But that's nothing new.

              To quote your idol...

              "Enjoy!"  lol

              "sad" SMH

              1. jackclee lm profile image81
                jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this
              2. jackclee lm profile image81
                jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                You probably miss read my posting.
                I have no allegiance to Trump or any politician.
                My view point is based on my understanding of our Constitution and our laws.
                No one is above the law...including our FBI and DOJ officials...

                1. Randy Godwin profile image93
                  Randy Godwinposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                  Wait a minute Jack, when did you decide you had no allegiance for Trump or any politician? You've been making excuses and bragging on his so-called accomplishments since he became elected. I'm gonna have call BS on that, Jack!  roll

                  1. jackclee lm profile image81
                    jackclee lmposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                    I call it as I see it. If Trump has done well to help our economy, I gave him credit. Is that being a partisan hack?
                    If you think so, fine. When he spend more than we take in, I criticized him for it. What does that make me?
                    So you on the other hand are partisan. You refuse to give Trump credit when credit is due and you insist he committed a crime when there was no proof.
                    So you be the judge.

  3. Live to Learn profile image82
    Live to Learnposted 2 months ago

    My observation is that in the current political climate no one will ever be held accountable. Each side will scream, money will be wasted investigating, and nothing will ever come of anything.

    1. promisem profile image97
      promisemposted 2 months agoin reply to this

      To your point, we saw no indictments of the gang of Wall Streeters who helped trigger the 2008 financial crisis and destroy their own firms, like Lehman Brothers and Washington Mutual.

      But they walked away with a huge amount of money in their pockets.

  4. Readmikenow profile image95
    Readmikenowposted 2 months ago

    I would like to point our under the judicial system of the United States a person is innocent until proven guilty.

    This is one more concept the left struggles to comprehend.

    If no guilt can be proven, guess what?

    1. Randy Godwin profile image93
      Randy Godwinposted 2 months agoin reply to this

      Who said no guilt could be proven, Mike?  Wait for the impeachment to prove Trump's guilt, I've been getting a kick out of listening to Limbaugh and Hannity melting down over Mueller's speech today. They're now saying Mueller lied and Barr told the truth.  No kidding!   Laughable as heck, but their fans will eat it up as usual.

 
working

This website uses cookies

As a user in the EEA, your approval is needed on a few things. To provide a better website experience, hubpages.com uses cookies (and other similar technologies) and may collect, process, and share personal data. Please choose which areas of our service you consent to our doing so.

For more information on managing or withdrawing consents and how we handle data, visit our Privacy Policy at: https://hubpages.com/privacy-policy#gdpr

Show Details
Necessary
HubPages Device IDThis is used to identify particular browsers or devices when the access the service, and is used for security reasons.
LoginThis is necessary to sign in to the HubPages Service.
Google RecaptchaThis is used to prevent bots and spam. (Privacy Policy)
AkismetThis is used to detect comment spam. (Privacy Policy)
HubPages Google AnalyticsThis is used to provide data on traffic to our website, all personally identifyable data is anonymized. (Privacy Policy)
HubPages Traffic PixelThis is used to collect data on traffic to articles and other pages on our site. Unless you are signed in to a HubPages account, all personally identifiable information is anonymized.
Amazon Web ServicesThis is a cloud services platform that we used to host our service. (Privacy Policy)
CloudflareThis is a cloud CDN service that we use to efficiently deliver files required for our service to operate such as javascript, cascading style sheets, images, and videos. (Privacy Policy)
Google Hosted LibrariesJavascript software libraries such as jQuery are loaded at endpoints on the googleapis.com or gstatic.com domains, for performance and efficiency reasons. (Privacy Policy)
Features
Google Custom SearchThis is feature allows you to search the site. (Privacy Policy)
Google MapsSome articles have Google Maps embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
Google ChartsThis is used to display charts and graphs on articles and the author center. (Privacy Policy)
Google AdSense Host APIThis service allows you to sign up for or associate a Google AdSense account with HubPages, so that you can earn money from ads on your articles. No data is shared unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Google YouTubeSome articles have YouTube videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
VimeoSome articles have Vimeo videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
PaypalThis is used for a registered author who enrolls in the HubPages Earnings program and requests to be paid via PayPal. No data is shared with Paypal unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Facebook LoginYou can use this to streamline signing up for, or signing in to your Hubpages account. No data is shared with Facebook unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
MavenThis supports the Maven widget and search functionality. (Privacy Policy)
Marketing
Google AdSenseThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Google DoubleClickGoogle provides ad serving technology and runs an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Index ExchangeThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
SovrnThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Facebook AdsThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Unified Ad MarketplaceThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
AppNexusThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
OpenxThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Rubicon ProjectThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
TripleLiftThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Say MediaWe partner with Say Media to deliver ad campaigns on our sites. (Privacy Policy)
Remarketing PixelsWe may use remarketing pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to advertise the HubPages Service to people that have visited our sites.
Conversion Tracking PixelsWe may use conversion tracking pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to identify when an advertisement has successfully resulted in the desired action, such as signing up for the HubPages Service or publishing an article on the HubPages Service.
Statistics
Author Google AnalyticsThis is used to provide traffic data and reports to the authors of articles on the HubPages Service. (Privacy Policy)
ComscoreComScore is a media measurement and analytics company providing marketing data and analytics to enterprises, media and advertising agencies, and publishers. Non-consent will result in ComScore only processing obfuscated personal data. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Tracking PixelSome articles display amazon products as part of the Amazon Affiliate program, this pixel provides traffic statistics for those products (Privacy Policy)
ClickscoThis is a data management platform studying reader behavior (Privacy Policy)