1776 Commission Report? Ignorance from the Right takes center stage?

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  1. Credence2 profile image79
    Credence2posted 15 months ago

    1776 Commission Report? Does "patriotic education" from the right wingers point of view replace the Truth?

    In response to the 1619 Project, conservatives led by a commission headed by Trump, deals in lies and misconception without so much as one nationally recognized historian on his panel. Is this where we are going? Truth is only that which coincides with rightwing values?

    I get angry with arrogance of such people and am determined to have them and their messages obliterated from the planet, within all means available within the democratic process, of course.

    Are people so dumb as to be so easily manipulated?

    Background:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/18/us/p … eport.html

    1. Sharlee01 profile image84
      Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

      I will admit, I did not read the 1776 Commission Report. It is so long. I just researched many other historians' opinions of the 1619 project,  its relevance, and their opinions on the accuracy of the claims in 1619. project.

      I must ask ---  what are your feelings about the actual claims in the 1619 project?

      1. Credence2 profile image79
        Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Don't blame you it can get quite involved

        Excerpt from a book review:

        "In August 2019, the New York Times magazine published the “1619 Project.” This series of essays and articles provided readers with many “facts” that they may not have known: that the American Revolution was fought to preserve slavery; that Abraham Lincoln was a racist; that America’s foundational premise was “slavocracy;” that present-day American wealth is a direct consequence of slavery; and that the essential pattern of our history is not one of unprecedented growth in freedom and democracy but institutional hatred and oppression of blacks"

        What's wrong? First I have never read anything that indicated that the Revolutionary War was fought to preserve slavery. I think that may be a stretch.

        2nd, to attack Abraham Lincoln as a racist was not fair to him, the time that he live in and his effort to eradicate the "peculiar institution". He was ahead of his time and was far superior to almost a half century of his predecessors. You can't judge 19th century men by 21st century standards.

        While the Right presents many of  its advocates here and now without the foresight that Lincoln could display 160 years ago.


        But, I do agree that much of America's vast wealth came from the unrequited toll of others and the appropriation of land and territory at the point of a gun.

        I would have my head in the sand if I did not recognize that racism was inherent and institutionalized as part of the Government. Is that as firmly in place today? I would say not, but corrections have come at a price, the bang of a gavel or the point of a bayonet, much of that necessitated the "identity politics" that conservatives harp about all the time. The fact that we had to "force it" means that constant reminders are needed to prevent backsliding.

        I regard the 1776 report as an ideological attack piece in a reactionary response to the assertions made in the 1619 project. While both Reports had their errors, the ones found in the 1776 report reeks of partisanism and are far more serious in my opinion.

        We don't agree on much, but kudos to you for your scholarship and fervent desire to always get to the bottom of whatever topic you are engaged in....

        1. Sharlee01 profile image84
          Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I can and will be kind and applaud  Nikole Hannah-Jone's efforts to address the foundational history of slavery and racism in America's history. Many Historians were not kind to her efforts. But veered into criticism of the 1619 Project.

          However, there were some historians with the stature that did challenge some of the claims or should I say credibility of the 1619 Project. I would think Jone's more or less had to create let's say a puzzle with all the different long past historical accounts. She created what she saw, a view.

          I did go lightly skim the 1776 report, it does appear to be one-sided, yes partisanism.  I must say I would have expected that.

          I too can agree that much of America's vast wealth came from the unrequited toll of others and the appropriation of land and territory at the point of a gun. Not sure many could argue that part of America's
          history.

          I enjoy conversing with you. I think you lay it all out there. You don't guard your every word.  No games, just your thought. I can see where your coming from, and feel I have gotten to know you --- a bit.

    2. GA Anderson profile image90
      GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      How about some of that "background" for any of us that hit the Pay Wall? (and not even for just a $buck)

      I don't know anything about either of the reports, but I get the impression that you think 1619 is the real truth and 1776 is deceitful false "truths," is that right?

      So toss out the most extreme and most partisan claims of both reports and compare the center-Left and center-Right report conclusions. Do you still see the issue as in your OP?

      As Sharlee asked, "What's your beef bud?

      GA

      1. Credence2 profile image79
        Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

        When it comes to Rightwingers,conservative advocacy and politics, rest assured that there is plenty of beef on the hoof.

        Yes, I can live with turning out the falsehoods of both reports. But when you look at what is going on in Virginia today, the danger is coming from the Right, to "whitewash" history, no pun intended. While so many states are talking about banning CRT and the 1619 project, which states discredit the 1776 Report? If it wasn't for Biden throwing this report in the rubbish bin, fragile white audiences would have preferred the comforting 1950's perspective on American history, even while fraught with lies.

        What did it say about the Founding Fathers? Excuse after excuse for their duplicitous professed beliefs, contrary to their actions. Such is capitalism, where exploitation for private gain supersedes any real principle. That is just as true today as it was in 1776, we just changed the color of the candy coating on the same M&M. It blames the left for fascism, which is clearly a right wing oriented form of government, bromides about Communism, ad nauseum.

        How do I explain to my nieces and nephews a "Leave it to Beaver" view of American History that marginalizes their contributions and their very existence? This is all quite contemporary stuff.

        I'd post a link to this 1776 Report, but as Sharlee said, it is a bit long.

        1. GA Anderson profile image90
          GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I was going to take a pass on your "Rightwingers" rhetoric, but then you had to pick-on the Founders. . .

          I am sure I recall you defending them, (the Founders), as `men of their times' in past discussions. And you just did the same for Abe Lincoln. (if you give it to Abe, (all those decades later), surely you would do the same for them). So what's up with this "Excuse after excuse for their duplicitous professed beliefs, contrary to their actions"?

          As for your nieces and nephews, why not just tell them the truth, at whatever level they can handle? Anything else will harm them.

          GA

          1. Credence2 profile image79
            Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

            GA, False equivalence to compare my example regarding Lincoln who was handicapped from today's perspectives only because he was a 19th century man, with men who behaved in stark contrast with professed beliefs.(Founding FAthers). Hypocrisy is not redefined in any sense by time and space. I see the clear difference, don't you?

            Were they all bad? Of course not. But it is this glaring and serious fault in their characters which tempers my view of the claim of their "greatness".

            John Adams is my example of a real patriot that truly believed in freedom, both in word and deed from this aspect, anyway.

            Regardless of the level, anything less than the truth will ultimately harm them.

            1. GA Anderson profile image90
              GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              I don't think your "false equivalency" claim is valid. You are judging two periods of time, not by the morals of their time, but by our 21st-century morals. That doesn't work. And yet, even so, you will grant `understanding' to one group but not the other. If there is a false equivalency it is that.  You don't get to have it both ways.

              I think that, if judged by their "times" the Founders could easily be described as more progressive for their "time" than you are in yours. Or, maybe you are suggesting that they should have fought for perfection at the cost of the nation they were trying to form? Surely you don't think your progressive ideology would have carried the day in a vote for our new Constitution?

              You are right about telling children the truth but wrong about the "level" thing. Explaining `Leave it to Beaver' shouldn't be any harder than explaining `The Cosby Show'. Unless, of course, a chip on the shoulder gets involved in telling the "truth."

              GA

              1. Credence2 profile image79
                Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                GA, what morals?

                You can't speak all the lofty things and extol them, and claim to abhor a system that you, yourself, are engaging in and from which you continued to profit. Walking the talk was just as relevant in 1776 as it is today. I am well aware that 18th century mores were different, but a hypocrite, hypocrisy and what they represent remain timeless.

                I am aware of the political implications of accommodating slavery as an impediment to the formation of the Union. But as a minimum, as individuals, they could have lived up to their "lofty ideals" within their own lives and personal behavior. Why should I believe anything that they "declare"?Otherwise, it s just more "mumbo-jumbo to impress and startle the world except upon closer examination, the truth is revealed.

                These were all intelligent and knowledgeable men and they should have known better.

                What is there to understand? When do the morals of anytime accomodate hypocrisy?

                You need to elaborate why you consider these Founders so"noble" and so "progressive" with the "enlightened values" of enslaving others for their own gain?

                1. GA Anderson profile image90
                  GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  I found a good article by Stephen Ambrose that illustrates my thoughts on this.

                  "Slavery and discrimination cloud our minds in the most extraordinary ways, including a blanket judgment today against American slave owners in the 18th and 19th centuries. That the masters should be judged as lacking in the scope of their minds and hearts is fair, indeed must be insisted upon, but that doesn’t mean we should judge the whole of them only by this part."

                  Take a few minutes for a good read: Founding Fathers and Slaveholders
                  That works for me, I think there is a lot to understand, but I have the impression it will mean beans to you.

                  GA

                  1. Credence2 profile image79
                    Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    I will check it out and let you know. I will give credit where due if your points are well taken.

                  2. Credence2 profile image79
                    Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    First of all, i respect Stephen Ambrose as a renown historian whose credentials are impeccable. I was anxious to read his take on this issue, thanks for sharing it.

                    Reading this, he basically confirms everything that I have been trying to tell you.

                    We all are aware of Jefferson's fickle nature, it is legendary.

                    But what about the other Founding Fathers, were they all fickle as well?
                    Did they consider blacks inferior and childlike, while they virtually kept the plantations running? The concept of true freedom was not an unknown one, John Adams and his son, John Quincy Adams seem to grasp the principle. Was it only John Adams who said that, "the American Revolution was not complete without the eradication of slavery?"

                    These men deserve credit for their contribution to nascent republic. That is why I opposed bringing down the monuments to them as I would those associated with the Confederacy. But their "greatness" is marginalized by their support in practice of an institution that they supposedly abhored in their declarations.

                    In spite of the political pressures, I would have respected them much more had they practiced what they preached and they should have known better than to convieniently throw darts at resolution in a future that they did not help to shape.

                    Who had to bear the brunt of "waiting" for the "wisdom" of a future generation?

                    Watching a good crime drama on TV, last night, "FBI Most Wanted", it reminded me of much of what we are speaking about.

                    A man, an acquaintance of another relatively wealthy man, was imprisoned for 35 years on charges of the rape and murder of a 13 year old girl. The truth was that the wealthy man raped and killed his own daughter and acquired a slick lawyer with circumstantial evidence to have his acquaintance imprisoned for a crime that he did not commit. And the wealthy man knew that he was in fact guilty and the man imprisoned was innocent.

                    So, after 35 years, the imprisoned man was released and basically went on a homicidal rage against this man and his entire family. The wealthy man when confronting the man just released spoke of bygones being bygones, peace in our time. How about we just bury the hatchet? The formally imprisoned man would say, yes, I would "bury it" into the rear of your skull.

                    There was no excuse for the man to target the entire family, but his rage and anger was inconsolable and I can understand why. The officers of the FBI had to put him down and send him to his maker by the end of the show.

                    Such be the case with America and it concealing the true nature of its crime against certain populations?

                    BTW, in my opinion, Abraham Lincoln was the greatest.

        2. GA Anderson profile image90
          GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I had to come back. "fragile white audiences." Whoo eeee. That's a good one. I mean combining from the side that suffers the torment of micro-aggressions and triggers, and dog whistles, and `safe spaces'.

          Yep, that was a chuckle.

          GA ;-)

    3. Live to Learn profile image60
      Live to Learnposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      ‘them and their messages obliterated from the planet’

      Another violent threat from a leftist voice. Sad we’ve come to accept this as the norm.

      1. IslandBites profile image88
        IslandBitesposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        You missed this part: "within all means available within the democratic process, of course."


        Oh, wait, you didnt.

        Sad, indeed.

        1. Live to Learn profile image60
          Live to Learnposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Exactly how, in your opinion, does one obliterate an individual? In the democratic  process. A message, sure. Not an individual. I didn’t miss the context. By the standards of the left this is violence. You guys can’t have it both ways.

          Sad indeed is correct. On your post, not mine.

        2. Credence2 profile image79
          Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Thank you for helping me translate what appeared to me to not be "rocket science".

      2. Credence2 profile image79
        Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

        You must not have received the memo, obliterate within the democratic process, means in a political sense applying every tool within civilized discourse to dispense with the Rightwinger and his or her loathsome ideas.

        1. Live to Learn profile image60
          Live to Learnposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          The amount of rage embodied in comments such as yours cannot be ignored. Nor does it lend any hope of civil discourse.

          Having a peanut gallery at your disposal does not mean that such comments should be afforded the courtesy of pretending they aren’t incendiary.

          Enjoy your echo chamber.

  2. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
    Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago

    (Had to rewrite to make sense of his "beef.")
    "In response to the 1619 Project ...  conservatives are coming up with lies and misconceptions ... without referring to even one Nationally Recognized Historian. (Yikes! yikes!) Is this where they are going: Truth, for conservatives, must coincide with their rightwing values?"

    Q.What conservative "truths" are NOT truth to you?
    and which "right-wing" values do you NOT agree with?

    A. _________________________________________ --->

    1. Sharlee01 profile image84
      Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

      Good question. I was a bit confused about what Cred was getting at.

      1. Credence2 profile image79
        Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

        How do I clear up the confusion?

    2. Credence2 profile image79
      Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

      Have a look at the report, you can just skim and YOU tell me that it is not the troubling piece of rubbish you have ever read.

      https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/The_1776_Report

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
        Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Okay, but it would be so informative and fascinating if you could answer the questions.

        1. Credence2 profile image79
          Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Read carefully, I gave a couple of examples of right wing lies in regard to my issues with the 1776 report, in my comments to Sharlee.

          The Right lies all the time, I would need to provide a "War and Peace" format to touch on them all.

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
            Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            The ONE comment:  (no examples)
            "... the ones (assertions) found in the 1776 report reek of partisan-ism and are far more serious in my opinion."

            Q. HOW SO?
            A. ____________________________________---->

            1. tsmog profile image79
              tsmogposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              How not?

              A __________________________________

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
                Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                How are they NOT partisan?

                They apply to ALL.

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  "While this country has its imperfections, just like any other country, in the annals of history the United States has achieved the greatest degree of personal freedom, security, and prosperity for the greatest proportion of its own people and for others around the world. These results are the good fruit of the ideas the founding generation expressed

                  as true for all people at all times and places."

                  1. Credence2 profile image79
                    Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    as true for all people at all times and places."

                    Really?

                2. tsmog profile image79
                  tsmogposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  Hasty generalization.

                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    Hasty comment/response.

          2. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
            Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            ... well, how would you start your extensive/exhaustive list of grievances?
            (The most urgent first.)

            I am enthusiastic for enlightenment.

    3. Sharlee01 profile image84
      Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

      I think I have come to understand what Cred was saying in his opening comment.

      Cred's statement --  "In response to the 1619 Project, conservatives led by a commission headed by Trump deals in lies and misconception without so much as one nationally recognized historian on his panel. Is this where we are going? Truth is only that which coincides with rightwing values?"

      he was referring to the 1776 Commission report that was written to dispute the 1619 project work. I feel he is sharing that he feels the 1776 report was slanted when composed to be right-leaning.  He feels the truth was skirted and was put together by those that were not suited to write the report.   

      I have gone go over the 1776 report, it is long (like 45 pages). Much of it was taken from works of other's historians. This is acceptable.

      I looked at the document at face values. I did find some areas that historical context was left out, and it would leave a different impression on the reader than what the historic truth actually provides.

      A good example --   the 1776 report claimed that George Washington “freed all the slaves in his family estate” by the end of his life. Historians claim Washington had only freed one slave upon his death.  He requested that the rest of his slaves be freed after the death of his wife. And then even when Martha Washington died three years later, several slaves remained in bondage and were transferred to her grandchildren.

      The report also denounces that the American founders were hypocrites. Due to preaching equality, even as they codified slavery in the Constitution and held slaves themselves.

      So, it is obvious there are some inaccuracies in the 1776 report. Did the authors mean to skirt the truth of history by twisting context? One could certainly say yes. I think individuals due to their own ideologies would walk away with different views of the 1776 report.  A view that would suit their own ideologies. One could say all of the same about the 1619 project.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
        Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        ... one must take into consideration the practices and the customs at the time.
        What do we do today that will seem like cruelty in the future?
        Take a look at our public schools and how we enslave children until they are 18. Every child a $ (or more) to the state.

        Are their rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness considered.
        No, not in the least.
        They are expected to sit in desks and open up their brains for information to be shoved in and grades to be earned.
        and for what?
        for
                        t h e m  ???????

        1. Sharlee01 profile image84
          Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

          "... one must take into consideration the practices and the customs at the time. What do we do today that will seem like cruelty in the future?"

          Yes, one must consider the practices and customs from that time in history. But, should we not hope our historians of today present truth mix with the fact these were practices of the time they are writing about.  Just the truth, so we could have a proper context of history?

          Should Washington in this case have been glorified falsely in regard to owning slaves? This is a problem, as we move farther and farther away from the birth of our nation, are facts being manipulated?

          I personally feel our rights have suffered over time, but we still have many rights other countries do not.  As our nation grew so did our needs... We needed the education to move us to what we have become today. The structure of education is something we accepted as a nation long ago.  We had the right to buck it, did we not?

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
            Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            He is not glorified for owning slaves for God's sake. Why do you say THAT!

            The structure of education in the US is based on the overly regimented, left-brained British way ...
            STILL to this day.

            1. Sharlee01 profile image84
              Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

              Washington was somewhat glorified in the 1779 report that came out of the last administration. --   the 1776 report claimed that George Washington “freed all the slaves in his family estate”

              This historically was not true according to many Historians. The facts show -- Washington had only freed one slave upon his death.  He requested that the rest of his slaves be freed after the death of his wife. And then even when Martha Washington died three years later, several slaves remained in bondage and were transferred to her
              grandchildren.

              The 1776 report in my view tried to glorify Washington by making the inference that he freed his slave upon his death. 

              I will agree our public education leaves a lot to be desired. It has become very poor, and it well appears to be regimented by the teachers union.
              As of late parents have taken note (and it's about time) and are demanding change. It would be very positive if more parents would become involved in their children's education. Private schools do a good job working with parents and listening to parents.  My children and now my grandchild attended Catholic school. It was and still is a wonderful situation. It's like a large family of support for a student.
              We stay involved.

          2. Credence2 profile image79
            Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Yes, Sharlee

            Just the truth:

            I am just as fervent about criticizing errors in the 1619 Project as those in the 1776 report. As, I have made this point clear to you earlier. I just find find one Report more troubling than the other

            1. Sharlee01 profile image84
              Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

              And this is your right. Just keep an open mind on both reports. Come to the middle between the two.

        2. Credence2 profile image79
          Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I can criticize practices of the past, work today to remove hypocrisy and double standards, so that the future can perhaps benefit.

          What is your grand design for an alternative to the current education system?

          A____________________________

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
            Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            It's called New Direction Education and I am still working on it.
            Basically, it is researched-based, no grades, individual testing when ready. Subjects will be combined such as History and Science, Art and Science/Math, English and History/Science, etc.  Illustrating, drawing and handwriting abilities will be expected ... no computers 'til fourteen.

            Teachers act as mentors and guides. Economics and finances will be experienced through mock business endeavors such as printing and selling T Shirts, literary works, such as school publications, and booklets featuring student Art and creative writing pieces. Students could also market hand-made products/crafts.

            I would like to include a program like HubPages for high-school English classes. Computers and many types of programs will be incorporated into the curriculums after ninth grade. Elon Musk has a great school which is far more sophisticated that this. His school focuses on critical thinking in regards to global economies and fairness, etc. 

            "Few know that in 2014, Elon Musk created Ad Astra, a super exclusive and innovative school, where his children and a select few study. Although it has been a great mystery, here we tell you everything that is known so far. ... Very little is known about this exclusive school, located at the SpaceX facility in California."

              "... in Ad Astra, students study Artificial Intelligence (AI), applied science, coding and design of many things, mainly the creation of robots."



            https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/385257

      2. Credence2 profile image79
        Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

        "A good example --   the 1776 report claimed that George Washington “freed all the slaves in his family estate” by the end of his life. Historians claim Washington had only freed one slave upon his death.  He requested that the rest of his slaves be freed after the death of his wife. And then even when Martha Washington died three years later, several slaves remained in bondage and were transferred to her grandchildren."

        ----

        You saw that and noted that you picked up on it, truly an "eagle's eye". Thanks for taking the time to read the lenghty report, understanding the perspective as to "my beef"

        1. Sharlee01 profile image84
          Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I picked up on several of the same. The report bends context to lean right. However, I expected this. It is not something I appreciate. This is where we have ended up, context can't be trusted, the country is so divided. It takes real research to really get to the bottom of most that are reported today. Although, one can usually get to some truth.

  3. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
    Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago

    Center stage is Larry Arrn. Got a problem with him?

    1. Credence2 profile image79
      Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

      The definition found in Wikipedia and other sources indicated that the 1776 panel was manned only with right wing political hacks and ideologues, and no real historians, could I be wrong?

  4. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
    Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago

    Conclusion:
    Among the virtues to be cultivated in the American republic, the founders knew that a free people must have a knowledge of the principles and practices of liberty, and an appreciation of their origins and challenges.

    While this country has its imperfections, just like any other country, in the annals of history the United States has achieved the greatest degree of personal freedom, security, and prosperity for the greatest proportion of its own people and for others around the world. These results are the good fruit of the ideas the founding generation expressed as true for all people at all times and places.

    An authentic civics education will help rebuild our common bonds, our mutual friendship, and our civic devotion. But we cannot love what we do not know.

    This is why civics education, education relating to the citizen, must begin with knowledge, which is, as George Washington reminds us, “the surest basis of public happiness.”

    Got a problem with the conclusion?

    1. Credence2 profile image79
      Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

      "While this country has its imperfections, just like any other country, in the annals of history the United States has achieved the greatest degree of personal freedom, security, and prosperity for the greatest proportion of its own people and for others around the world. These results are the good fruit of the ideas the founding generation expressed as true for all people at all times and places."

      Well, that's not good enough from where I sit from the opposite side of looking glass from where you obviously are. Just standard right wing boilerplate.

      Any education in civics or anything else require the truth as a foundation.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
        Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        - whats not good enough?
        - what do you see from the opposite side of the looking glass from where I am?

        (- how does that happen?)

        1. Credence2 profile image79
          Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I lived in Montana, you can speak to the Crow Tribe about "universal benefit", or perhaps speak with the Navajo in Arizona about what the "greatest degree" actually means, as to who benefits?

          You think they would have the same perspective that a white women would have about America's vaunted creed and boasts?

          That is what I mean by the opposite side of the glass, not being "good enough".

  5. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
    Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago

    "... American people have ever pursued freedom and justice, which are the political conditions for living well. To learn this history is to become a better person, a better citizen, and a better partner in the American experiment of self-government.

    Comprising actions by imperfect human beings, the American story has its share of missteps, errors, contradictions, and wrongs. These wrongs have always met resistance from the clear principles of the nation, and therefore our history is far more one of self-sacrifice, courage, and nobility. America’s principles are named at the outset to be both universal—applying to everyone—and eternal: existing for all time. The remarkable American story unfolds under and because of these great principles.

    Of course, neither America nor any other nation has perfectly lived up to the universal truths of equality, liberty, justice, and government by consent. But no ​nation before America ever dared state those truths as the formal basis for its politics, and none has strived harder, or done more, to achieve them."

    Got an argument against this?
    Don't think its true?


    How come?

    1. Credence2 profile image79
      Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

      You really believe all of that, don't you?

      "These wrongs have always met resistance from the clear principles of the nation, and therefore our history is far more one of self-sacrifice, courage, and nobility"

      Except when they haven't been... which is more often than most of you want to admit.

      Looks like we still need to work even harder and with ever more conviction

      Is it not obvious to you that I am not going to see "America" in the same light that you do? Am I that incoherent from your view?

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
        Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Especially since you cannot address my questions.
        did you notice what followed the letter Q.?

        ... and then I clearly indicated I would be interested in your A.

  6. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
    Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago

    "If it wasn't for Biden throwing this report in the rubbish bin, fragile white audiences would have preferred the comforting 1950's perspective on American history, even while fraught with lies.

    What did it say about the Founding Fathers? Excuse after excuse for their duplicitous professed beliefs, contrary to their actions." 

    Q. What were their actions?

    A._______________________________________________________________________

    "Such is capitalism, where exploitation for private gain supersedes any real principle."


    Q. "Any real principle," such as?

    A.________________________________________________________________________

    1. Credence2 profile image79
      Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

      Will get back to you with a reply that is to the point of your question.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
        Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Great!

      2. Credence2 profile image79
        Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

        1.Owning and trafficking in slaves and slavery while speaking of the lofty ideals of the freedom, equality under the law and the inherent rights of man and all that.

        2. Within the context of this point, the real principle should have been  as a minimum that no man had the right to enslave another and involuntary servitude short of committing a crime could not be imposed on anyone. But that takes second seat to the fact that these "gentlemen" were planters and in business to make money to support their lavish estates, built at the expense and uncompensated labor of others,  so, of course, the "ideals" have to take a back seat. Such is an example of capitalism in action, harbinger of a style and manner characteristic of the America to come in their future.

        My grievances with this society and this system are too vast for you to have the time to read nor for me to have the time to write, trust me on that.

        1. Ken Burgess profile image83
          Ken Burgessposted 14 months agoin reply to this

          As usual you make some excellent points and observations Credence.

          Despite some 250 years, the "ruling class" has not changed much in their hypocritical actions, we see this today, they mandate that everyone be vaccinated, wear masks, social distance, but they themselves follow none of these rules unless it is convenient for them or they are on the public stage.

          That said, we cannot fathom how horrible those times were (1600s and 1700s) I would dare to say that most Americans alive today would prefer death over living the rest of their days in the hardships of Servitude or Slavery.

          What slaves and servants shipped to America must have dealt with one can't truly fathom:

          "That most people get sick is not surprising," wrote indentured servant Gottlieb Mittelberger in 1750. "Warm food is served only three times a week .... such meals can hardly be eaten on account of being so unclean.

          The water which is served on the ships is often very black, thick and full of worms .... the biscuit is filled with red worms and spiders nests."

          Worm-filled water and spider-infested biscuits seemed vile enough, yet conditions could and did get worse for some traveling to the New World.

          Consider the fate of the Virginia Merchant. In 1649 the Virginia Merchant, filled with 350 men, women, and children, battled a two-front war: the elements and famine. The ship lost its mainmast in a storm off the coast of Cape Hatteras and fought tempests for eleven days.

          Food ran low, and men and women bartered over the many rats that infested the ship's hull. The captain put the weakest ashore on an uninhabited island. As death took its toll upon the sick, "the living fed upon the dead."

          Danger from inhumane conditions and danger from the sea made for a horrendous and potentially life-threatening voyage. Thus were the immigrants initiated to the realities of a new life.

          The voyage was a foretaste of what was to come.

          With the challenge of the sea met, another challenge awaited the indentured: the struggle to become ultimately free men and women.

          Before slavery became the prevalent form of labor in the South, indentured labor performed the arduous and dangerous task of travailing in tobacco fields.

          Some historians have deemed this labor "white slavery." The status of indentured servitude in Southern society has been debated for decades without any resolution.

          Servants were driven through the country "like a parcell of Sheep." Men were traded like animals. Other involuntary servants were those who were forced or kidnapped. Convicts formed a minority of the indentured as did men, women, and children who were kidnapped or "spirited away."


          My take is that those who are focused on the past, and getting restitution or reparations or revenge, have doomed themselves to being unable to make a better future for coming generations.

          I see plenty of examples today where our current "establishment"... the current "elites" are committing plenty of unfair or harmful acts against the current "masses" and we cannot hope to address the wrongs being forced upon us now if we are focusing our attention on the past.

          1. Credence2 profile image79
            Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

            I hear you, blind hatred, retribution etc, impedes one ability to see the road ahead. But in respect for those having their entire lives frittered away tolling for the benefit of others and for myself and my progeny regarding how we all got to this point, the truth regarding all these events should be expected.  Since, no one can put spilt milk back into the bottle. I never profited by being ignorant about anything and ignorance is not bliss. We can no more be expected to disregard history any more than Jewish victims of the holocaust can be expected to forget theirs. I want the complete truth, nothing less will do.


            I criticize the Founding Fathers, because as aa military man you know that a prime principle of leadership is "setting the example". If so prominent a collection of men can ignore this principle, what example do they set for the less prominent or what excuse do they allow them to be comforted with?

            Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

            1. GA Anderson profile image90
              GA Andersonposted 14 months agoin reply to this

              Oh lordy, lordy . . . "spilt milk back into the bottle"? I thought you didn't cry over spilt milk. And I thought it was toothpaste you couldn't put back into the tube. Boy, I better get with the times.
              .
              .
              .

              Or, you could get your bromides right before you use them.   ;-0

              GA

              1. Credence2 profile image79
                Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

                I think that "my bromide" was better and more on point. Half the fun is creating my own. If you haven't notice by now, I march to the beat of my own drum....

                My bromide emphasizes that you cannot go back in time when the milk and bottle were both intact, it goes a little farther than just lamenting the fact that the milk was spilt.

                Is this all that you've got?

                1. GA Anderson profile image90
                  GA Andersonposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                  "Is that all I got"? Well, considering your logic, I guess it is.

                  GA

  7. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
    Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago

    But noooo oo oooo!!!! mad

    So thanks for no enlightenment
    At all.

  8. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
    Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago

    ... can't squeeze water from a rock.

  9. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
    Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago

    clearly a case of talking-points vs talking-truths

  10. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
    Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago

    Report: "These wrongs have always met resistance from the clear principles of the nation, and therefore our history is far more one of self-sacrifice, courage, and nobility"

    C. "Except when they haven't been ..."

    The report said, "far more ...."
    Q. You do not agree?
    Q. How come?

  11. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
    Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago
  12. Kathryn L Hill profile image77
    Kathryn L Hillposted 15 months ago

    "But their "greatness" is marginalized by their support in practice of an institution that they supposedly abhored in their declarations."


    They did not invent the institution of slavery. Africans did. The practice was happening at the time in a major way. It was part of life in those days.  Even people in England had slaves, which is shocking to me.

    I can talk all I want about how America could have helped newly freed slaves transition to independent living, but in those days this idea/solution did not occur to anybody! I heard that Lincoln wanted to send them back to Africa, but the merchant ship captains would not hear of it: such long journeys with all the hardships!

    Its a matter of the evolution of consciousness. We are still evolving and I thank you for revealing the direction we should be heading. It does no good to hate the past, but it does do good to isolate difficulties and find solutions.

    The way I see it.

    1. Credence2 profile image79
      Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

      To be "great" involves not behaving like everyone else. "Others" did not make bold declarations nor extoll lofty ideals.

      The ideas were around, Lincoln questioned whether blacks and whites could ever like together in peace, harmony and equality. There was much talk during the time about exporting them, as impractical as such an enterprise would be.

      I have spoken about solutions that would assist in the healing allowing more of us to relegate all of this to the past and putting books back on the shelves.

      I understand and acknowledge your viewpoint.

 
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