Does Size Really Matter?

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   Nathanvilleposted 8 months ago

   Something more light-hearted than the politics of Presidential Elections:
   
   More of a question of “what quirkiness legal/Administrative systems do you have in your country”.  An example (one of many) for the UK is “Why British cities make no sense”.
   
   In America, and every other sensible country in the world ‘CITY’ Status is generally determined by size and population density – Except for the UK, where size doesn’t matter, for example:-
   
   •    Smallest City:  Population 1,751 - The city of St Davids in Wales, with a population of just 1,751 (in 2021) is the smallest city in the UK.
   
   •    Largest Village:  Population 18,810 - Lancing, West Sussex, with a population of 18,810, is the largest village in the UK,
   
   •    Smallest Town:  Population 372 - Fordwich, Kent, with a population of 372 is the smallest town in the UK, and
   
   •    Largest Town:  Population – 178,196 - Reading, in Berkshire, with a population of 178,196, is the largest town in the UK.
   
   Why British cities make no sense: https://youtu.be/Whqs8v1svyo
   
   So, what quirkiness legal/Administrative systems do you have in your country, any examples?

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      peterstreepposted 8 months agoin reply to this

      In The Netherlands, and perhaps this is also the case in the UK, the right to be called a city has not to do with size, but with importance. The city rights where given in the Netherlands in 17th century.  A city obtained this status when the commerce and importance was big enough. The status to be called a city also allowed it to collect tax. (a special name was given to important comercial cities that were often stratigically situated, like on rivers. They were called "Hanzesteden" - Hanseatic League)
      Some of these cities grew over time to capitals and huge cities, other cities stayed relatively small due to a lot of different causes that happened over the centuries.
      
      (this is what I vaguely remember from secondary school, I haven´t googled it. So I could be slightly wrong)

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      1. 86

         Nathanvilleposted 8 months agoin reply to this

         Cool Netherlands approach to city status is far more logical than Britain’s e.g. Netherlands urban areas being given city status based on the level of their commerce and importance.
         
         In the UK it’s always the King or Queen who grants city status, and until 1889 the qualifying criteria for city status being a cathedral e.g. historically the church being the ‘power house’.  The first urban area to be granted city status being Lincoln, in Lincolnshire, in 1072; In 1542 Bristol (where I live) became the 13th urban area to be granted city status because of Bristol cathedral.  Currently there are 76 cities in the UK.
         
         From 1889 Birmingham in the West Midlands, became the first of a number of urban areas to be given city status because of their ‘industrial importance’.
         
         But since 1994, when the tiny Welsh village of St Davids had its city status restored by the Queen (her decision) the criteria for granting city status has nothing to do with size or importance; if it had, then Reading in Berkshire would have been granted city status decades ago.
         
         St Davids - The Smallest City in the UK:  https://youtu.be/0N112wQ5yRw
         
         Since 2000 the criteria for granting city status in the UK is now based on:-
         
         •    Notable features
         •    Historic features
         •    Royal features, and
         •    A forward looking attitude
         
         Using the above criteria, three towns were picked for city status in 2000 to celebrate the millennium; and since then, using the same criteria further towns were granted city status to celebrate:-
         
         •    The Queens Golden Jubilee in 2002
         •    The Queen’s Diamond Jubilee in 2012, and
         •    The Queen’s Platinum Jubilee in 2022
         
         But unlike the Netherlands, there is no real advantage or benefits of being a city in the UK, other than a status symbol e.g. being a city in the UK doesn’t give that city additional political or administrative powers, and doesn’t allow them to collect taxes etc.  So, unlike other countries like the Netherlands, and presumably the USA, being a city in the UK is nothing more than a status symbol.

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   2. 78

      tsmogposted 8 months agoin reply to this

      I didn't see this OP thread until I saw your reply to Peter in my feed, Arthur. Jumping in . . .
      
      I looked about for history of cities in the U.S., requirements to be a city, and what privileges or benefits it offers. As many topics it pretty much comes down to that to become a city today varies by state.
      
      At one site, link following, I discovered the oldest city was established by the Spanish in what is now the state of Florida the year of 1565. It is the St. Augustine.
      
      For my state, California, the fist/oldest city is San Diego at the farthest south of the state bordering Mexico. I live about a half hour drive from it. It was established the year 1769 by the Spanish. California has 482 cities.
      
      At the following link there is chart as well as list of the oldest cities for each state. They both are ordered by date. The chart shares who established the city such as the French, Spanish, or Americans
      
      https://www.titlemax.com/discovery-cent … ach-state/
      
      Still poking about discovery shares for California State Law requires that areas proposed for incorporation include at least 500 registered voters, that the area be entirely within the boundaries of one county, and that the incorporating territory be contiguous and without island of unincorporated territory surrounded by the proposed city.
      
      The main benefits for becoming a city is control, self-governance, ability to tax usually by adding it to the state sales tax, and development of quality of life enhancements. However, in many cases law enforcement may begin by first facilitating the county sheriff department. Usually there is at minimum a voluntary fire department.
      
      The link next is a two page city fact sheet for cities in California. There is graphic showing a historical snapshot beginning the year 1900 for city incorporation. It offers additional information such as the city with largest population is Los Angeles with 4 million while the smallest city is Amador with a population of 190.
      
      https://sgf.senate.ca.gov/sites/sgf.sen … s_2016.pdf
      
      The link next is 11 pages of information for the process to become a city.
      
      A Citizen’s Guide to the Incorporation Process
      https://www.stanislauslafco.org/pdf/for … ration.pdf
      
      It states . . .
      
      "Reasons for pursuing
      incorporation vary from place to place but is usually sought for the following objectives:
      
      ▪ To improve local public services;
      ▪ To capture increased revenues to support local services;
      ▪ To give a community local control over land use planning;
      ▪ To create politically accountable governing body (a city council) in a limited geographic area; and
      ▪ To pursue local policy goals.

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      1. 82

         peterstreepposted 8 months agoin reply to this

         That´s interesting. I just followed the links and found information about the city of Vernon with just 209 (wiki)/ 210 your source... citizens... The fastest growing city in California...But if I look for images of the place. I see that it´s actually pretty big. I guess many people work there, but don´t live there.
         
         In the Netherlands I also found something similar. A city called Batenburg with only 660 citizens. But apparently it got it´s city rights in 1349. It had it´s own coin in the Middle Ages. And a  castle. So yes, those city rights has everything to do with privileges given by the powers that rule. These city rights in The Netherlands and Germany where given in a time where a city was more important than a country and ruled by the nobility.
         The oldest I could find in a quick search, were the city rights that were given in 1122 to the city of Utrecht (Which is still a big city (for the Netherlands..) in the center of the country.)
         The newest city was created in 1975, called Almere and has about 225.000 citizens. It was created on new land when part of the inner sea of The Netherlands was made dry for that purpose. (creating new land from what used to be the sea is a Dutch hobby...)

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         1. 86

            Nathanvilleposted 8 months agoin reply to this

            Cool – In the UK we also have something similar to Vernon in the USA and Batenburg in the Netherlands e.g. a city where people work, but don’t live:  Namely that is the ‘City of London’, 1 square mile in size, with a population of just 11,o00 but 614,500 workers (one of the financial centres of the world).
            
            The City of London not to be confused with London (also a city) e.g. a city within a city.  In contrast to the City of London, London, the capital of the UK has a population of 8.9 million and covers an area of 607 square miles.
            
            The City of London was settled by the Romans in AD 47 (then called Londinium); and built a wall around it for protection.  So following the Norman Conquest of 1066 the walled city of London (1 square miles) stayed protected from the Norman invaders, and to this day has maintained its own separate powerhouse (laws and taxes), and even has its own Lord Mayor, separate to the elected Mayor of London e.g. the elected Mayor of London has no powers in the City of London (1 square mile).
            
            This short 5 minute video explains:  https://youtu.be/LrObZ_HZZUc
            
            The Netherlands claiming land from the sea is really cool – I love it:  I think, with the threat of rising sea levels due to global warming, other countries around the world could learn a lot from the Netherlands.

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      2. 86

         Nathanvilleposted 8 months agoin reply to this

         Wow, fascinating info, and links.  I was particularly struck by the fact that California, with a total population of less than 40 million has 482 cities – which by far dwarfs the UK, with a population of less than 70 million (almost double the population of California), the UK only has 76 cities (just 15% of the number of cities in California).
         
         I was also intrigued that Amador, with a population of just 190, is a city – It really does demonstrate that size doesn’t matter.
         
         And your feedback clearly shows that when it comes to cities, the USA has more in common with the Netherlands and the rest of the world than the UK e.g. where you say “The main benefits for becoming a city is control, self-governance, ability to tax usually by adding it to the state sales tax, and development of quality of life enhancements.”, that’s a general principle that seems to apply across most of the world except in the UK:-
         
         In the UK, that description of self-governance and local taxes applies to ‘County’ status, not ‘City’ status e.g. the City and County of Bristol; Bristol being awarded county status by the King in 1373 in gratitude for its contribution to the war effort against France (ship building) – and then Bristol was given city status by the King in 1542 when the former Abbey of St Augustine became Bristol Cathedral – so it makes Bristol (at just 42 square miles) one of the smaller counties in the UK e.g. the UK is divided into just 92 counties, mostly large areas, and many of the counties (those ending in ‘shire’), such as Gloucestershire, Somersetshire, Oxfordshire etc. where created by the Romans over 2000 years ago.
         
         

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