Jaywalking?

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   Nathanvilleposted 13 months ago

   Jaywalking is not an offence in the UK so although I’ve read the Wikipedia definition of jaywalking:-
   
   “Jaywalking is a term, originating in the United States, for pedestrians walking in or crossing a roadway that has traffic, other than at a suitable crossing point, or otherwise in disregard of traffic rules”
   
   It’s a concept that I find hard to visualise in that our ‘road user laws’ in the UK (The Highway Code) seems radically different to American road laws, so the concept of jaywalking just doesn’t exist in the UK.
   
   And with major changes made to the UK’s Highway Code this week those differences in road user laws between the USA & UK have become even more pronounced!
   
   https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the- … nuary-2022
   
   The new changes aim to give the highest priority to those most vulnerable e.g. as from 29th Jan walkers will have priority over cyclist and cyclists will have priority over cars etc.  In practice it means that cyclists are now encouraged to cycle in the middle of the road on quiet roads, and that cars should give way to pedestrians at Road Junctions etc.
   
   Confused about the changes to the Highway Code? Don't be!  https://youtu.be/MhWi-9NrJeU
   
   The new rules have been met with a mixed reaction from drivers!  But I’d be interested in learning how these rules may differ from your own country and whether you think the new UK road user rules are barmy or sensible?

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      CHRIS57posted 13 months agoin reply to this

      Arthur, isn´t this a pure European luxury? Our American friends don´t walk and barely cycle :-)
      
      In G. major cause for fatal accidents between cyclists and cars is at right turns on fully regulated intersections. Happens when cyclist get into the blind spot and are run over by the rear wheels of a truck or heavy van. So G. turned to technology and forces new vehicles to be equipped with cameras/sensors/auto brakes to actually see and react to the cyclist alongside to the truck.
      
      On the countryside and in the cities we have many roads without walkways. Pedestrians are encouraged to walk on the opposite lane (facing the upcoming cars directly to step aside if necessary).
      
      Passing distance inbetween cyclists/pedestrians and cars was widened to 1,5 m recently. However this is kind of difficult to achieve on narrow roads. And i don´t know of anyone fined for this yet.
      
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZPE2GekXGw

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         Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

         You have a valid point - it probably is a European luxury; it's my impression also, that Americans don’t walk and barely cycle.
         
         Yep, Britain is taking a similar route to Germany e.g. new technology being used, particularly in Lorries; being equipped with cameras and sensors etc., to show the driver the blind spots.
         
         Likewise, in the UK our country roads don’t have paths and pedestrians are encouraged to walk on the opposite side of the road, so that they are facing on-coming traffic.
         
         Yeah, even before the new rules came in this week in the UK there is never enough space to safely pass cyclists on country roads; so on numerous occasions we’ve been stuck being cyclists on country roads (sometimes for miles) before we could overtake safely – So with the new rules, where cyclists now have right of way it’s going to be even more frustrating for drivers in such situations!
         
         I didn’t watch the whole of your video from start to finish because it’s over an hour long; but I did scan through it and watched a good 10 minutes or more, with fascination.
         
         What struck me with your video is that apart from driving on the other side of the road, the roads, cycle tracks and paths etc. are all just like the UK.
         
         From the video it seems that Germany, just like the UK, has lots of roadside and path cycle paths, and off-road cycle paths.
         
         I’d be interested to know to what extent the cycle network extends in Germany.
         
         In the UK there are now 12,739 miles (20,501 km) of signed cycle routes: 
         
         •    It is made up of 5,220 miles (8,400 km) of traffic-free paths,
         •    With the remaining 7,519 miles (12,101 km) being on-road, cycle paths.
         
         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Cycle_Network
         https://www.sustrans.org.uk/national-cycle-network
         
         The first off-road cycle path in the UK, which opened in 1984 was a 14 mile (23 km) path from Bristol to Bath, using an old disused railway.
         
         Beginning with the Bristol and Bath Railway Path:  https://youtu.be/g9w9zn8Z8AI
         
         When I was younger I used to use the Bristol to Bath cycle path to cycle to and from work; which was a pleasant ride as it was off-road virtually all the to the office in the centre of the city of Bristol. 
         
         A couple of years ago Bristol City Council (Local Government) made major changes to the road network in the city centre for the benefit of buses and cyclists e.g. changing the main two and three lane road leading out of the city centre into just one lane for cars, with car-free bus lanes and a dedicated car-free cycle lane, leaving just one lane for cars (which seems to have become quite common in other parts of Britain); and I did make a short video of it at the time: 
         
         Marginalisation of Bristol Cars:  https://youtu.be/eQnkDjAS_dw

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            CHRIS57posted 13 months agoin reply to this

            Arthur,
            you asked for the bicycle network? I don´t have an answer, because any info on cycle pathways is only dedicated to long distance routes separate from main roads. That is estimated to some 8.000 km in Germany. However the federal highway net is already more than 40.000 km and i would just guess from my casual experience that some 80% of that highway system has separate bicycle roads. And main state and county roads also have separate cycle roads. So i would assume more than 80.000 km of town to town connections have their separate cycle road.
            
            The issue with jaywalking is imho that this is per definition happening if people take responsibility into their own hands and normally behave accordingly (look left and right, make sure no traffic, ...)
            
            On the other hand on main intersections traffic is regulated (traffic lights...) I observe that here people strictly follow rules and delegate responsibility for their own behavior to the rule giver, if i can say so. In other words, people (cars, cyclists, pedestrians) stick to the rules and pay less attention to other traffic participants "odd" behaviour. When lights turn green, all start driving, walking, whatever. Causes a lot more accidents than jaywalking me think.

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               Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

               Thanks for the feedback Chris.  It’s interesting that there’s 8,400 km of off-road cycle paths in the UK, and an estimated 8,000 km in Germany; it would suggest our two nations are on a par.
               
               I know what you mean about pedestrians, car drivers (or whatever) putting their foot down and going when the light turns green for them; it does happen, but fortunately not too often in Britain e.g. one difference from your description is that the ‘Green Cross Code’, which is drummed into everyone in Britain from early childhood, teaches you to stay alert, and think:-
               
               The current version of the Green Cross Code is:-
               
               1.    THINK! First find the safest place to cross
               2.    STOP! Stand on the pavement near the kerb
               3.    USE YOUR EYES AND EARS! Look all around for traffic and listen
               4.    WAIT UNTIL IT IS SAFE TO CROSS! If traffic is coming, let it pass
               5.    LOOK AND LISTEN! When it is safe, go straight across the road – do not run
               6.    ARRIVE ALIVE! Keep looking and listening while you cross
               
               https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Cross_Code
               
               Green Cross Code Over The Years:  https://youtu.be/2vhmDDzQMRo

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         tsmogposted 13 months agoin reply to this

         Not as argument, yet in my county of San Diego and definitely in the San Diego Metro area bicycling is huge. And, walking is common in the rural areas. They have established biking paths throughout the county with trails and some of the highways have painted marking for bicyclist specifically.
         
         The San Diego Association of Governments (SanDag) is in charge of the planning and construction projects for transportation for the county. The link below goes to City of San Diego Bicycle Master Plan (2013). It is very through plan. At that year there was 510 miles of bike paths (820km) with four different classifications. I am sure it has grown since then.
         
         https://www.sandag.org/uploads/projecti … _25546.pdf

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            CHRIS57posted 13 months agoin reply to this

            Tim, very interesting to see that cycling is gaining ground in the USA.
            I wonder if cycling is an every day means of getting from one place to another or if it is seen as a sports activity.
            
            In my place over 90% is not for sports and recreation, but for every day shopping and transport. We have a lot of cargo bikes on our streets, especially after bikes got motorized. https://www.fahrrad-xxl.de/fahrraeder/l … lastenrad/
            
            And you will see 85 year old grandma´s doing their grocery shopping with a bike. Causes concerns to protect these elderies from the car traffic. A Class II Bike lane or Class III Bike Route (page 19 of the link you provided) are not considered safe in this context.
            
            Of course it is much easier in Europe to go on a bike or by foot. Just to illustrate: The video i provided shows from 55:20 (intersection to the street i am living) to 57:07 (entrance to shopping center parking lot) that it takes only 2 - 3 minutes by bike from living quarters to next shopping center, some 10 minutes by foot. Next bakery is 2 minutes walking ...
            
            My parents live in the countryside. They have a household assistent, kind of a maid. She is coming by bike every day, because distances even in the countryside are fairly small.
            
            These few examples may give an impression of Europeans being much more relying on the bike and their feet, simply because it is very convenient. And thus there are many more occasions for "close contact" between cars and bikes/pedestrians.

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               tsmogposted 13 months agoin reply to this

               Chris, I wholeheartedly agree with you bicycling is much more prevalent in Europe, yet is in a sense embedded in its society as compared to the U.S. and even my region here in San Diego County. So, I agree with you it is much more recreational than a favored form of transportation in the U.S. at least in my region.
               
               With a peek I discovered for commuters using bicycles by state the highest is a dismal 1.9% in Oregon while the least is Mississippi with 0.08%. For my state California it is in the #7 spot at 0.86%. See link below with charts showing info on bicycling in U.S. where the data seems to be through 2019.
               
               In San Diego metro recently the growth of bicycling is seen with local TV news/newspapers reporting on the controversies with the cities removing parking alongside the streets to make bike lanes in the city. The car people are upset of course and enough of the businesses too are saying it will cut into their sales.
               
               The State of Biking in the U.S. Looking at the charts will give a quick snapshot
               https://thebikeadviser.com/bike-commuti … ed-states/ 
               
               Bike Culture: Europe vs America. I skimmed stopping here and there reading more thoroughly. Enlightening for me especially reading your and Arthur's contributions.
               https://www.reliance-foundry.com/blog/biking-usa-europe
               
               95 Cycling Statistics Every Biking Buff Needs to Know a 2021 article with comprehensive information in bulleted format.
               https://www.livestrong.com/article/1373 … tatistics/
               
               Using your guide where to peek at the video I payed more attention rather than hop scotch it. What I noticed first is the construction of the pathways while appearing to be somewhat established decades ago. I would say it is much more leisurely. I liked that ambiance. Here in my neck of the woods that is non-existent.   
               
               Here in the city where I live bicycling is not a main form of transportation to work. When I drive through the city at that hour of going to work commuting I never see them. The only walking I do for commerce is the mobile home park I live is in a business district and I have two fast food places in the block the longest less than a half mile (0.8km) I go to. Got to get my burger or tacos once in awhile

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                  CHRIS57posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  Very interesting links.
                  I found it quite amazing that Montana, Wyoming and Colorado are among the states with highes commuter use of bicycles. I remember Montana and Wyoming to be very lonely places with large distances to cover, but may be the communter count is related to business hubs only. And Colorado is quite full of mountains, not the best terrain to do cycling for getting to work, same as i would be careful in San Francisco, too hilly.
                  
                  Even in Europe are large differences in bicycle use. Paris almost none, while my city has statistics of 43% every day bicycle use. Only some cities in the Netherlands and Denmark have higher marks.
                  
                  That high useage opens a new topic: Jaycycling
                  On regulated intersections where roads with different priorities meet, cyclist frequently ignore the red light on a major road and keep on going. But rules also apply to parallel cycling roads.
                  This creates many, many near miss situations and frequent collisions between cars from the minor road (but green) and ignorant cyclists. Even cyclists clash sometimes or pedestrians are run over by cyclists. Again, an issue probably only arising in central Europe.

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                     tsmogposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                     Interesting point - Jaycycling. I can only give my observation based on my city while traversing from here to there. As hinted earlier there is near to non existent metro use of bikes from my observation. Yet, when driving along old Highway 395 they are frequently seen most likely a weekend recreational ride. It will be a singular person or groups. They tend to hog the road and not stick to the side. With oncoming traffic I have had to slow to there pace for as long as twenty minutes to get to the nursery where I did outside work for a few extra bucks. Frustrating!

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                  Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  Thanks for all the data and links Tim.
                  
                  For comparison, the mode of transport for getting to work in the UK in 2018 was:-
                  
                  •    Car = 68%
                  •    Rail = 10%
                  •    Walking = 10%
                  •    Bus = 7%
                  •    Bicycle = 3%
                  •    Other = 2%
                  
                  In the Live Strong link you gave, a few points caught my eye e.g. fatalities in the USA involving bicycles, and road fatalities in the USA involving drink/drive:-
                  
                  The Live Strong article stated that 2% of fatal accidents are cyclists, and that in 2018 around 857 cyclists died in road accidents.
                  
                  In the UK cars account for around 80% of the traffic, and in 2018:-
                  •    44% of fatalities were in cars.
                  •    26% pedestrians.
                  •    20% motorbikes.
                  •    6% cyclists.
                  
                  Although that 6% was just 99 fatalities in UK:  I haven’t done any maths or sought any data but those figures would suggest that fatalities are significantly higher per capita in the USA?
                  
                  Another interesting statement made in the Live Strong article is that in USA about 37% of all fatal crashes in 2018 were related to alcohol?  Does that sound right?  In comparison, in the UK in 2019 5% of all road traffic accidents were drink related – Since the 1970s there’s been a tough anti-drink/drive campaign by the UK Government and the NHS, with heavy penalties if caught driving over the legal limit.
                  
                  THINK! Don’t Drink Drive 50th Anniversary Advert:  https://youtu.be/CERT0xNFGo4
                  
                  I used to cycle to work using the Bristol to Bath cycle path, cycling from Staple Hill to the City Centre every workday, 5 miles each way of pleasant off-road cycling.  Below is a short video of that cycle route that I used to use 5 days a week for work (it was quicker than the bus, as it was a direct route, with no traffic, and no waiting time for the bus at the bus stop):-
                  
                  Car Free Cycling - Cycling the Bath to Bristol Railway Path:  https://youtu.be/sVqSpItWGyA

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                     tsmogposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                     Thanks for the vid of the route you traveled. Again, as mentioned to Chris about his cycling vid in my neck of the woods there just aren't any pathways like that definitely with trees as it is semi-arid here. The only long pathway here in Escondido is one that parallels the storm drainage system running east to west traversing about 5 miles. I see people walking and jogging that, but can't recall cyclist. A lot of the homeless use it to get from one side of the city to the other.
                     
                     One thing I noticed at the beginning of the vid was the graffiti on the wall. hmmm . . . That is a big problem with gangs tagging stuff. I went back stopping here and there in the livestrong article. Will have to look closer later.
                     
                     As far as alcohol related traffic accidents is procedure here in California to test for it with every accident including drug too. Most accidents I see on TV broadcasts are alcohol related. When holidays hit the local police in combination at times with California Highway Patrol (CHP) will set-up check points somewhat randomly placed. It is common in all states for them. See link below from the CDC about it.
                     
                     https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/ … oints.html

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                        Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                        Yep, likewise, the police in the UK will test for drinking and drugs whenever there’s a serious accident; and yeah, come Christmas and New Year the police are out in force, sometimes with random check points, to spot check drivers for drinking:  But we don’t have the sobriety checkpoints covered in your linked article – in the UK any checkpoints (which can be anywhere) are deliberately made obscure so that you don’t know one is there until it’s too late.
                        
                        However, in the UK drivers who pass a police check point will then subsequently flash their headlights to on-coming traffic as an advanced warning.
                        
                        GRAFFITI
                        I didn’t notice the graffiti in the video (so I had to go back and watch the beginning again) because thanks to Banksy’s works, graffiti in Britain has become legitimised since the 1990s, and is now seen as art in British culture, and actively encouraged by many Local Governments; so a bit of graffiti goes unnoticed.
                        
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banksy
                        
                        You may have heard of Banksy’s, he’s now world famous.  Banksy’s is a Bristolian (Bristol, where I live), but his real identity is unknown. 
                        
                        Who is Banksy?  https://youtu.be/Xoe3Nn5vuBg
                        
                        Back in the 1990s, when he first started with his graffiti in Bristol, graffiti was still illegal then but neither the Local Authority nor the police could catch him.  But after a while his graffiti started to be appreciated as ‘art’ and Bristol Local Government not only legitimised it but encouraged it.
                        
                        The Famous ‘Well Hung Lover’ painted on the side wall of a Sexual Health Clinic just off the city centre in Bristol became (retrospectively) the first ‘legal’ street art in the UK.
                        
                        Banksy Artwork Street Tour in Bristol: the Famous Vandal of Bristol:  https://youtu.be/r0BF1TRmo8Q
                        
                        These days genuine Banksy’s graffiti and artwork is worth a lot of money:  For example the famous ‘Well Hung Lover’ (aka Naked Man) painted on the side wall of a Sexual Health Clinic just of the city centre has increased the value of the property 320% e.g. neighbouring properties are worth £305,089 ($412,488) while the building with the Banksy graffiti painting on the side wall sold for £1,281,666 ($1,732,806).  https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news … -add-home/

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                           tsmogposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                           Yes, I have heard of Banksy especially with the work of his shredded at an auction. Here too graffiti is both frowned on and appreciated. Local artists are hired both by private enterprise and city governments to pain murals on buildings and walls.
                           
                           Yet, there is a difference between art and tagging where that is more nefarious with gangs marking their territory and etc. That is common here in Southern California with the Hispanic gang presence where they are national, regional, and local ones.
                           
                           Hispanic-American gangs
                           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: … ican_gangs

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                              Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                              Wow, gangs do seem to be quite a widespread and perhaps serious problem, in the USA.
                              
                              I have heard of gangs operating in London from time to time, but never really seen any evidence of it; it doesn’t seem to be a big issue.  So in response to your comments about the Hispanic gang problems in Southern California I started routing around the Internet to see what I could find out about Britain:-
                              
                              Not mentioning Northern Ireland, apparently the gangs (mostly youth gangs) are most prevalent in London, and a few major cities; but not in Bristol.
                              
                              In 2014 one study (the Runnymede Trust) wrote of modern youth gangs and ‘gang culture’:  “We actually know very little about 'gangs' in the UK: about how 'a gang' might be defined or understood, about what being in 'a gang' means... We know still less about how 'the gang' links to levels of youth violence.”
                              
                              Professor Simon Hallsworth argues that “where they exist, gangs in the UK are 'far more fluid, volatile and amorphous than the myth of the organised group with a corporate structure'.”
                              
                              And a field study conducted by Manchester University found that in Britain:  “'most within- and between-gang disputes... emanated from interpersonal disputes regarding friends, family and romantic relationships', as opposed to territorial rivalries”.
                              
                              Cottrell-Boyce, writing in the Youth Justice journal on the subject in Britain argues that “gangs have been constructed as a 'suitable enemy' by politicians and the media, obscuring the wider, structural roots of youth violence.
                              
                              So in conclusion, I’m no wiser than I was before, other than that I don’t think we have a serious gang issue in Britain at this time; albeit there have been a few famous British gangs in our history, such as the Peaky Blinders in Birmingham in late Victorian/Edwardian Britain (1890s to the 1920s), and the Kray twins who operated a criminal gang in London for about 10 years from the late 1950s until 1967.
                              
                              The BBC has recently made a TV Series depicting the Peaky Blinders in the aftermath of World War I -   An extract from one of the episodes: https://youtu.be/M-7v9bP10-U

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                                 tsmogposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                                 Intense dramatic video, Arthur. You know when one ponders only for a moment gangs are nothing more than a group of like minded people motivated to survive something, anything. One could say countries are big gangs, don't you think? The vid reminded of the time period here during prohibition of alcohol when there gangs seeking control of the illegal distribution of it. It is that time period where the term gangsters arrived. Below is a short brief timeline of gangs here in the U.S.
                                 
                                 https://ivypanda.com/essays/timeline-of … n-america/

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                                    Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                                    I like your opening statements above; yeah, the way some countries bully others is very gang like!
                                    
                                    I found this Wikipedia article about gangs in the UK, it’s quite mild compared to your history, but I’m sure it does have some interesting points e.g. apparently, Bristol had a serious gang problem in the early part of the 20th century (100 years ago, when guns were still readily available in Britain). 
                                    
                                    And a drug gang that had operated in Bristol in the 1990’s were all imprisoned in 1998.
                                    
                                    Reading through the Wikipedia article, it would seem that gang culture started in Britain after child labour was regulated in 1833 e.g. children were no longer able to earn a living for their parents - Hard Times!
                                    
                                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_in_ … ed_Kingdom
                                    
                                    I also came across of a the local famous ‘Cock Road Gang’ in Bitton, Bristol, who terrorised the  area just 5 miles from where I live in the late 18th century -  http://www.bittonhistory.org.uk/people/cock-road-gang/
                                    
                                    And I found your link educational, and one aspect that caught my eye was the section of gangs in the USA in the 1960’s, which reads:
                                    
                                    “After a successful rebellion, gang members diverted their efforts with some joining political parties and movements. For instance, Bunchy Carter, a former gang leader rose to become head of the Black Panther Party in Los Angeles.”
                                    
                                    It reminds me a bit of the situation in Northern Ireland e.g. the two opposing political parties in Northern Ireland being Sinn Fein (Catholic and pro-Irish/anti-British), and DUP (Democratic Unionist Party) who are Protestants and pro-British.
                                    
                                    •    Sinn Fein is the political wing of the IRA (Terrorist group/freedom fighters) fighting to end British rule in Northern Ireland and for the reunification of Ireland.
                                    
                                    •    DUP is a political party who formed a terrorist wing in 1986 to fight against the proposed ‘Peace Treaty’ (Good Friday Agreement) that was finally signed in 1998.

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                                       tsmogposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                                       Gangs are interesting and here from my observations is simply a part of every sub-culture especially in the low income segments. I skimmed the Wiki article getting a jest it is prevalent, yet maybe not as much as here. I read the Bitton article finding it interesting. Gang stuff is not uncommon in our popular crime TV shows plots both main and sub-plots. There are movies specifically about gangs. As the Wike article pointed out gangs both there and here seems to have entered history in the 1800's. I wonder if that is because of social forces somehow.
                                       
                                       Just for interest here in my county is the link below for gangs. When looking at it notice it shows Crips and Bloods, which both are Black gangs and in opposition of each other. Also, I noticed it does not mention any of the white race gangs such as the skinhead gangs. Skinheads are radical right racist members who keep their hair cropped close and characterized by wearing heavy boots with strong Nazi leaning. BTW, I remembered just now in the Wiki article where it stated the Bloods influenced one of the gangs in the U.K.
                                       
                                       San Diego County has the main metro San Diego City, East County, North County, and South Bay that is closest to the border with Mexico. There are territories within each as well as within each city.
                                       
                                       Gangs in San Diego, California
                                       https://www.streetgangs.com/cities/sandiego/
                                       
                                       
                                       Racist Skinheads: Understanding the Threat
                                       https://www.splcenter.org/20120625/raci … reat#music

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                                       Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                                       Tim, I wasn’t that aware of the Bloods influence on gangs in the UK; but on re-reading Wikipedia it was only in places like London and Manchester, and short lived e.g. rising from around 2000 and dying out by 2010.
                                       
                                       Yeah, I think the rise in gangs stemming from the 1800’s, as you surmise, is related to the cultural and social changes.   Yes, I remember the skinheads back in the 1960’s along with the Mods and Rockers of the same time period; it was a craze you heard of in the news media but saw little of in real life; and by the 1970’s faded into obscurity in Britain.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mods_and_rockers
                                       
                                       Wow, you do have a lot of gangs in San Diego, California; it looks incredible, hard to imagine!

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               Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

               Although we have a lot of dedicated cycle paths, and Class I bike lanes, we also have a lot of Class II and Class III Bike Routes in the UK as part of the on-road national cycle network.  At this time I don’t have any data on how safe, or otherwise, Class II & Class III Routes are considered to be in the UK, but what you say seems logical.

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            Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

            Thanks for the link, an impressive document, and it’s encouraging to see San Diego taking cycling and walking so seriously.  I also found the section on existing and proposed land use in San Diego on page 16 quite an interesting read.

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      tsmogposted 13 months agoin reply to this

      You made me look Arthur. Reading the article you provided and watching the video as you indicated it does seem confusing while somewhat daunting too. Perhaps not. I do think a lot of it is common sense. Many of our laws/courtesies are similar. What struck me is there was no mention of E-Scooters? Those are at times great controversy here in the San Diego City metro especially because of the large rental business at the coast and in the city. They are on the sidewalks doing it and the law forbids that. Link below about the California laws on that.
      
      Also, each state has their own laws and they differ. For instance in Oregon you can make a right hand turn at an intersection without stopping whereas here in California you can't.
      
      Regarding jay walking I will speak as an observer more than anything with here in Escondido a population of 151,000 and specifically in the area I live. First, the law is "Jaywalking is illegal in California per Vehicle Code 21955 VC. This law states that: if there is an adjoining intersection controlled by a traffic signal device, then. a pedestrian shall not cross the road at a place except within a crosswalk."
      
      Pedestrians in a crosswalk have the right of way as long as they have a green light for the direction. They also have the right away if no signal is present. At most intersections where there is a signal there also will be an electronic sign that displays a character showing to walk and another when not to.. The timing is about right.
      
      I live in a mobile home park at the edge where the city itself is transitioning toward suburban and not far off is empty leading to a town. It is a business district now, yet the park has been here since 1970's. The park entrance/exits (2) onto the main thoroughfare of the city running east to west. It is two lanes both ways, a turn lane between them, and the speed limit is 40mph (64kmh), though the main intersection is about 1/2 mile away (0.8km). Across that street is a fairly good size strip mall and just a little ways from there the local post office.
      
      People jaywalk it all the time mainly from early morning to about 9am when traffic is not heavy kind of. And, at night after 7pm when going home from work has subsided. Traffic patterns vary through the day. The do it a lot in front of the park because it is far enough away from the main intersection it is worth it to make a dash.
      
      There are those who are daring crossing when it is busy and waiting in the turn lane until the surge has ended. The worst is the homeless with their shopping cart full of belongings doing it any damn way the please. I have personally witnessed four people hit in the 12 years I have sat at the wall at the park entrance/exit. I do that for entertainment And, there is a lot of foot traffic. Also, there are accidents with the businesses between the park and the intersection now and then. What I have never seen is anyone get stopped or ticketed by the police and they drive by frequently being a main street.
      
      Opps that got long. I should have edited.
      
      Links of interest if curious
      
      E-bike laws
      https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/blog/laws/ … alifornia/
      
      Laws and Rules of the Road - California Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV)
      https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/ … -the-road/
      
      Bicycle and Pedestrians - DMV
      https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/driver-ed … destrians/
      
      California Right of Way Laws - Arnold Law Firm
      https://www.justice4you.com/blog/califo … f-way.html

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         Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

         With reference to where you say “For instance in Oregon you can make a right hand turn at an intersection without stopping whereas here in California you can't.” In the UK it would be ‘left hand turn’ as we drive on the other side of the road; and it would depend on the road markings, as follows:-
         
         •    No road markings, no need to slow down or stop, a dotted white line across the road indicates that you should give way (slow down), and a solid white line across the road means that you must stop.
         
         Yes we also have signals at busy interceptions and roundabouts, and zebra-crossings on busy roads; but as we don’t have any jaywalking laws in the UK pedestrians can and do cross wherever they want, so car drivers have to stay alert at all times when driving though busy urban areas – because you just don’t know when some idiot is going to step out in front of you.
         
         Thanks for all the links; it was educational browsing through them.
         
         If someone gets caught for jaywalking in America, what’s the penalty?
         
         E-Scooters
         Turning to your first question last, referencing my videos on the new road user rules in the UK, you commented:  “What struck me is there was no mention of E-Scooters?”
         
         The simple answer is that currently E-Scooters are not ‘legal’ in the UK.
         
         Currently the UK Government is running trials to explore the positive and negative impacts of e-scooters on public roads, as well as to ascertain where the law should stand on electric scooters moving forward.  In that respect hire schemes are available in most cities (as part of the trials) for E-Scooters; but it is illegal to use a privately owned e-scooter in the pubic highway.  If you are caught using a privately owned e-scooter then it will be seized and destroyed.
         
         Another peculiarity in the UK is because the e-scooters are currently illegal in the UK and can only be if hired as part of a Government’s nationwide trial, there are currently no laws on wearing helmets or no requirement to have a full driving license etc.  During this trial, which has been going on for the past year or so e-scooters are considered a menace and dangerous by car drivers; so I’m not sure what the Government is mindful to do once the trials are over?
         
         E-Scooter Trial:  https://youtu.be/YWc1aSSGWj8

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            tsmogposted 13 months agoin reply to this

            Well that answers the question doesn't it - they're illegal. The video pretty much reflects here regard public sentiment like pedestrians being hit by them. They are used extensively in San Diego metro particularly at the beaches. There are multiple rental companies and at one point due to public sentiment stopped renting them at popular coast locations. But, then later brought them back. As your vid shared a big problem both on the coast and in the city is people don't leave them at docking stations just anywhere they please.
            
            Just for interest is the vid below of E-biking at Mission Bay park. It is 9+ minutes, but a peek at the beginning you will see the environment. One thing to bear in mind with pathways at the coast is there are pedestrians, skateboarders, roller bladders, cyclist, and E-cyclist too. And, once in a blue moon the crazy at evening or night driving their vehicle along it. Turkeys!
            
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR2lqtAApJY
            
            The penalty for jaywalking is as follows:
            "A jaywalking pedestrian can receive a ticket for the offense. The cost of the jaywalking ticket is $196. (145 Pound / 171 Euro) This is the base fine and does not include administrative fees and assessments. No points will be assessed to the pedestrian's DMV driving record."
            
            Points are recorded at your driving record and impacts vehicle insurance and the determination to suspend drivers license. The worse offense is a Driving while Under the Influence (DUI). Even an E-scooter rider can get a DUI citation. In contrast a skateboarder is considered a pedestrian and cannot get a DUI, but can for public intoxication.

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               Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

               I watched the whole video, all 9+ minutes, and found it very relaxing (beautiful environment); and it made me yearn summer, when we can get to the beach and enjoy the sun.  The one thing I did notice in the subtitles is that ‘no alcohol’ is allowed on the beach?  Is that normal in America, or just that beach? 
               
               I was also amazed on how many people were cycling and using e-scooters on the promenade, in Britain you’ll get mostly walkers on the seaside promenade and only a few isolated cyclists, and almost no one on skateboards or roller-skates etc.   This short clip at the end of our staycation in Rochester, Kent last year gives glimpse of the promenade at Gravesend (a popular tourist attraction), and not a single cyclist, skater etc. in sight, just pedestrians - https://youtu.be/v1vO88QB2WY?t=1830 
               
               When we’re on holiday (vacation) we like to find the little quiet beaches away from the tourists if possible; especially where they have facilities and café.  One such place that we frequently visited while on holiday in North Cornwall was a little beach called “Talland Beach”; it wasn’t an easy drive, steep incline and narrow country roads, but it did have a lovely little café where we could buy our chips (fries in American I think?) and very quiet and peaceful.
               
               Talland Beach in North Cornwall, England (the video I took of the beach):  https://youtu.be/1QjzMsn5Iyw
               
               Wow, $196 for jaywalking in America; that’s quite a tidy sum for just crossing the road in the wrong place. 
               
               We also have a points system in the UK: 12 points on your licence (first offence) six months ban and at the courts discursion you may or may not need to re-take your driving test to get your licence back after the 6 months.  For a second ban in three years its 12 months, and a third ban in 3 years and it’s a two year ban.
               
               In the UK speeding offence attracts from 3 to 6 points on your licence; and a drink-driving offence in the UK attracts from 3 to 11 points on your licence.

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                  tsmogposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  Interesting videos, yet having to go to the grocery this morning I skimmed here and there with the intent to watch entirety later. Yes, that video I shared is quite relaxing as are yours. Of course you know I live in Southern California so the beach weather is here today. My nephew and his family shared on Facebook pics of them body boarding. Surfers here surf all year round, though they use wet suits.
                  
                  I am about 24 miles (39km) inland and make it to the coast maybe once a year to just to drive it for a look see during the spring when less traffic. Parking is terrible up and down the coast always except the wee hours in the mornings.
                  
                  Yes, no alcohol is common at the beaches and today open fires in some places even in fire pits are not allowed. Why? I don't know. And, public parks are not allowing alcohol based on city regulations and varies.
                  
                  I kinda thought you may have check points too. I don't know how our point system works other than with DUI being the worse, which can lead straight away to suspension. Link below.
                  
                  California DUI: What are the Penalties?
                  https://dui.drivinglaws.org/resources/d … fornia.htm

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                     Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                     Wow, of course, Southern California, beach all year; very lucky.  The good weather you have is something I’m envious of for sure.  This winter in Bristol it’s been steady around 10c (50f), so rather cold and chilly, but fortunately no snow.
                     
                     From where we live, we’re 23 miles from Clevedon pier, and 32 miles from Weston-Super-Mare pier.  We’ll visit one or other, or both at different times (as a day trip) at least once or twice a year; obviously during the summer months when its beach weather:-
                     
                     Clevedon isn’t a tourist hot spot so it’s the quieter of the two if you just want alone time by the sea:
                     
                     Our Day Trip to Cleveland last summer:  https://youtu.be/RvayD7L49JQ?t=100
                     
                     Weston-Super-Mare on the other hand is a hustling, bustling, tourist hot spot: https://youtu.be/03lAct_DNLQ
                     
                     Yeah, parking can be a bit difficult here at times, but usually we find a parking spot on the coastal road; albeit sometimes a fair walking distance to the pier and seaside cafes. 
                     
                     Yeah, I can understand not wanting fire pits on the beach, but although my preferred beverage on the beach is coffee, no alcohol allowed on the beach would I’m sure upset some people. 
                     
                     Not drinking alcohol in public spaces in the UK only became law in 2014 under The Antisocial Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014, and is known as PSPOs (Public Spaces Protection Orders); the only places in Britain that uses PSPOs (as far as I can tell) is just London Transport, and Bath city.
                     
                     Wow, your DUI penalties are very harsh in California compared to the UK; in the UK you can’t get banned for a first offence, the maximum penalty for drink driving being 11 points, and 12 points in three years is needed for a licence ban.  Also in the UK any points added to your licences are removed after just three years, whereas (looking at your link) in California such offences are not wiped for 10 years.

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                  wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  Don't forget that the $196 isn't so much for jaywalking (that's just the label) it's for endangering your own life, that of multiple drivers on the road and other pedestrians as cars suddenly swerve violently to avoid and unexpected obstacle (you) where it is not supposed to be.
                  
                  Although that does seem rather steep to me!

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                     Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                     Interesting point; I think it highlights a difference in cultural attitude e.g. if someone gets injured or causes an accident for walking out in front of a car without warning, even if there was a zebra crossing or traffic lights just a short distance up the road that they could have used; in the UK in the first instance it’s the car driver who are going to be perceived as being the guilty party, not the idiot that stepped out without looking.
                     
                     Therefore, in the UK, whether the car driver gets prosecuted or sued is really up to whether there were any witnesses, CCTV or car-cam footage that can support the car driver’s claim that he wasn’t speeding and that he couldn’t have stopped any faster.  In the UK it puts a lot of pressure on car drivers to be vigilant at all times!

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            CHRIS57posted 13 months agoin reply to this

            Arthur, Tim, we have issues with rented E-scooters in the city.
            
            Not because of "moving traffic" but "standing traffic". People rent the scooters and just leave them where the time or distance limit of their tarrif made them stop. E-scooters in the middle of a walkway are no exception. Just recently a blind person in our city fell over a scooter on the sidewalk and seriously hurt herself. And i personally removed some of these left alone scooters from the sidewalks.
            
            People take a scooter to their nearest bus station, then forget about the scooter and hop onto the bus. Next bus coming to this stop and a mother with baby can´t exit with her stroller.
            
            There are simply no rules set up. And because the rented scooters are not owned by the users, they don´t care and take no responsibility. And German digital privacy laws kind of forbid to link the rental information to the licence plate of the scooter, so backtracking.

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               Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

               Yep, likewise, during the e-scooter trials that the UK Government is conducting, rented e-scooters are left everywhere within the designated zone, which can be a nuisance, but not to the extent of what you describe.  And during the trial period in the UK there are no rules.
               
               I would hope that the trial period would demonstrate to the UK Government that e-scooters are a nuisance and danger and should remain illegal; but I fear the Government will be under pressure to approve them because of the added role they would play in the Green Policy for reducing our carbon footprint!
               
               However, if at the end of the trial period the UK Government does legalise e-scooters, I hope that the Government will have gathered sufficient data from the trials to be able to introduce strict rules:  But we shall see.

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                  CHRIS57posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  E-scooters are not bad per se. It is only this rental equipment that is causing trouble. Imho they are no more dangerous, hazardous than E-bikes, inliners, skatboarders or cyclists or unleashed dogs. It is only this unorganized disposal.
                  
                  With E-mobility came a new kind of rental vehicle to our streets. E-motorcycles, or E-scooters with a seat/helmet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiaDWeSFBsU
                  
                  These vehicles i saw on Chinese streets in vast numbers, but until recently almost nowhere in Germany. We had these Vespa type motor scooters. Now this is changing.
                  
                  With the rental scooters same issue like with their smaller kin. No regulation for parking. So they may not end up in the middle of a sidewalk but there are enough spots where a parked scooter do compromize traffic.

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                     Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                     Wow, as the saying goes “A picture is worth a thousand words”; I watched the whole video, and although I don’t understand German I got the gist of it from the visual.
                     
                     We don’t have any hire schemes for e-scooters in the UK, so you don’t see them on our streets, but is popular in London are the Boris Bikes.
                     
                     Boris Bikes are pedal bicycles for hire in London, a scheme introduced by Boris Johnson in 2010 when he was the elected Mayor of London. 
                     
                     The beauty of Boris Bikes is that (unlike the e-scooters) in order to keep your hire charge to a minimum you have to dock the Boris Bike in a proper docking station when you’ve finished with it; so unlike the e-scooters they are not left all over the place, but kept tidy in proper docking stations scattered all over London.
                     
                     Currently, there are 11,500 Boris Bikes for hire in London:
                     
                     How to Rent a Bike in London - London's Boris Bikes: https://youtu.be/EjA3D9DKmQo
                     
                     If e-scooters had a similar hire arrangements and docking system it would be an improvement e.g. they wouldn’t be left all over the place.

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                        tsmogposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                        From the video I like how the Boris Bike system works, yet no way could I do it. Why? I don't own a cell/smart phone ha-ha! No way to pay for it. Yeah, I'm a dinosaur. No need for one yet except a big maybe if driving and the car fails and need assistance.

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                           Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                           You’re not the only dinosaur, I was only forced to get smart phone last summer when my old brick, which I had since the year 2000, finally died.  And not being used to a smart phone I rarely use it.  I don’t make many calls on it (as we mainly use our landline), and I tend not to use the apps as I find I can do most things on the Internet from our main computer; albeit, I do find it useful as an alarm clock when we’re on holiday (vacation). 
                           
                           The only app I use on it regularly is the NHS app e.g. to make a doctors or view my hospital consultant appointments, order a prescription if needed, and view my medical records etc.
                           
                           NHS App Introduction:  https://youtu.be/-W_xsrnLnu8

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                        CHRIS57posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                        ... If e-scooters had a similar hire arrangements and docking system it would be an improvement e.g. they wouldn’t be left all over the place...
                        
                        You hit the nail all right. And it is amazing that nobody from state to community authorities came up with any rule at all for requiring docking stations.
                        
                        Here in G. we are normally good at useful organisational tools. We even have "docking stations" for shopping carts. From a comedy show: youtube.com/watch?v=h1J-g3adKMw

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                           Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                           Cool, I like the punchline at the end with all the shopping trolleys.

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                  tsmogposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  Just a short note. Even though here in California we have state rules/laws for E-scooters there are also city regulations. But, the question is how do you enforce them? They are having luck with enforcing the rental businesses, but I really think not the users. The police are out there cruising the streets, yet from my knowledge not frequent enough to make a difference and no foot patrol at all while very little bike patrol officers.

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                     Nathanvilleposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                     Yep, likewise, notwithstanding national laws, local governments can also introduce their own local laws e.g. although the UK Government will be banning all fossil fuel cars from 2030, Bristol City Council banned all diesel vehicles in Bristol in October 2021.
                     
                     Law enforcement is an interesting point.  Yeah, you don’t see so many Bobbies on the beat (police walking the streets) these days; but the UK has one of the highest numbers of CCTVs per capita in the world, and in Bristol the police control centre monitors the streets remotely from the CCTVs.
                     
                     My son is a professional photographer, mainly working in the nightclubs at the moment, and quite often after work he walks the streets of Bristol in the early hours of the morning with his camera equipment to get night shots of Bristol as part of his profession. 
                     
                     And quite frequently the police, spotting him on their CCTV, will send a police car to investigate; one policeman who’s stopped him several times now, apologised to our son last time, but explained that he’d been seen on the CCTV and that he (the policeman) knowing that the trip was a waste of time, was just following orders. 
                     
                     This is our son’s flickr album for ‘Bristol at Night’: https://www.flickr.com/photos/properjob … 5264325753
                     
                     So in conclusion, with all the CCTV’s everywhere in Britain, and with the facility for facial recognition, and vehicle recognition software, the police in Britain have an easier time in keeping an eye on things than they did in the past.

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   Nathanvilleposted 13 months ago

   SWINDON MAGIC ROUNDABOUT
   AND ROAD SAFETY
   
   From other discussions with Americans I get the impression that roundabouts are not common in the USA, and that Americans prefer Intersections?
   
   Roundabouts are common across Europe, with the scariest one in Britain being the Magic Roundabout in Swindon, built in 1972; and as scary as it looks, it’s actually reduced traffic accidents by 75% according to a study carried out in 2010.
   
   The Magic Roundabout in Swindon explained: -  https://youtu.be/6OGvj7GZSIo
   
   Aerial view of the Swindon Magic Roundabout:  https://youtu.be/HuKWHR5omU8

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