The Irony Of Obamacare

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   Poppa Bluesposted 14 years ago

   Under Obama's health care plan every American would be REQUIRED to buy health insurance, essentially you are being forced to trade your labor for something you may not need or want.
   
   At what other time in history were Americans given the benefits of food, shelter, clothing, and health care in exchange for their labor? Well that would be when people owned slaves!
   
   Isn't it ironic that a black president would force you to work for benefits?

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      Marine4Everposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I agree, it is ironic.

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   tantrumposted 14 years ago

   Very !

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   ledefensetechposted 14 years ago

   Not really, we don't teach history in school anymore, so people just don't know any better.  So much for public education making a more educated public.

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      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Yes we do

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   mikelongposted 14 years ago

   If I hadn't worked my butt in the military I wouldn't have the free health care that I do now...
   
   I wouldn't have received the nice GI Bill paycheck that went along with my paid for education either...
   
   I don't agree that everyone should be forced to buy insurance...coming with a penalty...especially when the health care industry pushes to run up costs...
   
   I wish people had the same access to health care that I do, though....
   
   The slavery analogy that you brought up Pappa is interesting...and true to some degree...
   
   The irony of slavery is that slaves had real value....they had to perform various labors, but were also a marketable product...so it paid to invest in your slaves....they had value...
   
   It's too bad that, following the abolition of slavery, the true nature of "human caring" came out of the closet......only caring if it turned a private profit....
   
   Hmmmm...and then there's Richard Nixon and his quiet conversations with Mr. Kaiser......

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   ledefensetechposted 14 years ago

   Slavery was a stupid idea.  Not only were the conditions horrible and the institution itself immoral, but the plantation owner in the South had massive costs that his free counterpart in the North did not.  Oxen needed to be used in the South instead of horses because the slaves would beat them.  Horses can plow faster than oxen, which is why oxen faded from farm life in the 19th century.  Hoes had to be twice as strong in the South because the slaves would bread anything flimsier.  Not to mention the costs associated with feeding, clothing and overseeing a restive slave population.
   
   Acre for acre the North was far more productive than the South because they used free labor and paid wages rather than use forced labor.  Turns out private profit is the best way to encourage people to work. 
   
   I don't even begrudge you your free healthcare and education subsidy.  You made the choice to put yourself between the US and her enemies.  You also bet your life on the whims of our politicians, not something I felt like doing, but to each their own.  You took a risk and survived, you deserve the healthcare and education.
   
   What I do begrudge is the corruption and graft endemic in allocating tax dollars to political cronies, while those same corrupt politicos lambast the producers that generate those tax funds for "greed" and "putting profit over people".  Cute terms, but there is a difference between rhetoric and reason.
   
   If you're really interested in why healthcare is so expensive you might ask yourself why Lasik surgery is so different than most other medical procedures in this country.  The answer is quite interesting.

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      Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Good stuff.  Although I could argue at least to a point that indentured servitude wasn't exactly free labor.  I enjoyed your perspective.

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   mikelongposted 14 years ago

   Sure, I had a "choice" to some degree....
   
   Far more of one than draftees, or the foster youth who make up one of the most sizeable populations of recruits....
   
   Working with these young people, for many there isn't much of a choice....
   
   But, at least they will get free health care and education...if they make it through....in peace time or war, the military life is not an easy thing...
   
   As for slavery....it isn't so stupid, because we are continuing to practice it...Los Angeles, my home, is the base for the largest sweatshop industries in America, right here in our garment district..."unseen" but right in plain view....
   
   A wage-slave is still a slave, in my book....especially when the pay is low, the hours either repressively long or not enough to get by....
   
   I look at the temp-labor boom that we are seeing here...displacing real jobs with these ridiculous profit-saving schemes....Slavery alive and well...without the responsibility of "property"....there's always more desperate people waiting to jump into the frying pan...
   
   http://www.warehouseworkersunited.org/index.php?id=35
   
   This is just a little taste...
   
   The maquilas in Juarez, and stretching across the Northern Mexican border, as well as deep within the nation itself, is another example of the modern day slave predicament.....and if it wasn't so profitable it wouldn't be going on...
   
   Breeding this:
   
   http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2009_11_01_archive.html
   
   If you read through these articles, you will find one that speaks about the murder of labor organizers among those killed by "drug terrorists"...I call this smokescreen...private business opposed to the organization of their chattel labor force...and using the violence in Northern Mexico to cover their tracks...
   
   Shell tried to do the same in Nigeria....

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      ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You had a choice, you didn't have to serve.  Personally speaking, I didn't trust out leadership to not send me out and get killed on some "peacekeeping" mission that might earn them a few points in the polls but do little or nothing to really help people.  So I chose not to serve.  I gave up the opportunity for free healthcare and paid education.  The military of the 1990's was nothing like the service my dad was in during the 1970's and 1980's.  But I'm good with the choice I made.
      
      As for "sweatshops" and "wage-slaves".  I hate empty terms like that.  Understand that labor is a market like any other.  In the labor market jobs are usually ranked by skill and education.  The more skill and education a particular job needs, generally speaking, the more you make.  Risk, too, plays a factor.  The more risky a job, the higher, in general, the salary.  That's why coal miners make more than a grocery check out clerk.  A coal miner risks black lung and emphysema, a grocery clerk does not.  Or a CEO.  I'm not talking about the quasi-governmental types like the guys who run Fannie and Freddie (or GM and Chrysler these days), I'm talking about guys that start companies like Starbucks, Google, and Gore-Tex.  Those guys literally risked everything and for every one of those companies that are a success, there are dozens that failed.  Being a CEO is a huge risk which is why they command so much money.
      
      Back to manufacturing workers.  For the most part they are unskilled laborers.  Unskilled labor is about the worst place you can be.  Since anyone can do your job, you're competing against a far larger pool of potential employees.  That's why a Wal-Mart employee makes far less than a physical therapist, for example.  If you really want to better yourself and command a higher wage, you have to do one of two things or both things at once.  One, you have to increase your skill level.  Acquire skills that people are willing to pay for.  Two, you have to educate yourself. 
      
      Everyone still has the power to do this.  What quite a few people don't have is the desire or discipline.  This subject is a bit complex, I haven't even touched on Mexico, for instance, but the fundamentals remain the same.  The key to success is investing in yourself and becoming more skillful.  It's not like we live in a society of serfs, you can always choose to better yourself.

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      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      "A wage-slave is still a slave, in my book...."
      
      
      What an unbelievably offensive statement

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      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      "Sure, I had a "choice" to some degree...."
      
      
      Only to some degree?
      
      

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   mikelongposted 14 years ago

   Absolutely....I had limited selection based on a variety of factors...
   
   I've written about some of these things in my articles...you visit my writings so much TK-Sab...I'm surprised you haven't read more of them...

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      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You had 100% choice: Join or not join. The rest is just being dramatic.

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   freddykruegerposted 14 years ago

   you have a choice to get health care they making it cheaper stop watching fox news who distort the news

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      Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      hmm.....so, did the Democrats take out the part where we're gonna be FINED individually if we don't have health insurance by 2012?
      That's tyranny.
      Fox exposes Obama's tyranny all the time.

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         Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Fox perpetuates the ignorance of the masses who watch it.

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            A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            You people really think FOX is the epitome of evil don't you? A few political commentators who don't worship Obama as if he were a Messiah and y'all lose your minds.

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            A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            It also scares the crap out of you and the rest of the left, you are losing ground that you thought you conquered and you're!
            starting to spin like a top.
            
            The sooner you realize the Republicans will once again take Congress and then the White house the sooner you will begin to heal, Obama had the whole world in his hand and due to complete incompetence lost it.

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            Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Not like Olberman or prissy Chrissy

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      A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You mean REPORT the news, the rest distort thats how we wound up with the loser we have in the White House!

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   freddykruegerposted 14 years ago

   oh really and bush was a genious huh put us in this recession with all those tax cuts that werent paid for

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    freddykruegerposted 14 years ago

    fox distorts the truth how about you start watching rachel maddow on msnbcbbut i guess you like the rest of the conservatives think fox is everything cz lies is what the republicans are good for since bush did it throughout his term .

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    freddykruegerposted 14 years ago

    the economy is getting better and he is about to fix the healthcare cz at this point billions of dollars are wasted but i guess fox news is to busy to say that they too busy backing palin who does not even know there was a korean war that's your republican presidential candidate are you fucking serious?

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    freddykruegerposted 14 years ago

    sorry he trying to get everyone health care but i guess you guys just want to use taxpayers money to pay when you get sick huh wage slavery you crazy

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    freddykruegerposted 14 years ago

    what no reply what scared to know the truth stop being ignorant obama trying to work with everyone unlike that texan who pushed his ideas through used scared tactics about terrorist going to attack us again well didnt we get attacked during his fucking term

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       A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Dude, take a breath, use some punctuation, relax....

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    Sab Ohposted 14 years ago

    "Under Obama's health care plan every American would be REQUIRED to buy health insurance"
    
    Not everyone. Not Obama, not the members of the House and Senate.
    
    
    Hmmm...

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    freddykruegerposted 14 years ago

    so you saying that not everyone should have affordable health care?

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       ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       No Freddy, what we're saying is that Obamacare is not the way to get people to have affordable health care.  Do try to be reasonable, we have too many people on here already who try to use rhetoric and emotion as ways to demonize people.  What we need from people is reason, not hysterical adolescent finger pointing.

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    theirishobserver.posted 14 years ago

    Hello - I will leave you all to deal with these domestic matters

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    MikeNVposted 14 years ago

    What is affordable?
    
    Lets say you are a single earner family of 4 and you make $15 an hour.  Your employer doesn't cover your insurance because they are unable to cover your insurance (Yes they will be fined... that will help for sure!).
    
    So you make $600 a week or roughly $2,400 a month.  Your Take Home pay after Federal and Local Taxes is roughly $1,800 a month.
    
    Your dumpy 2 bedroom apartment is $800 a month.
    
    You now have $1,000 a month which just so happens to be about the amount of money an average Health Insurance Policy costs when you purchase it on your own.
    
    And even if you have insurance it's not "Free" you'll still need to come up with the co-pays.  So the family that now has insurance won't have the money to use it!
    
    So clearly you can not "afford" the policy and eat and pay for your car, auto insurance, clothing, and still be able to do anything.
    
    So in steps Big Brother to save the day.  They offer you a "Tax Credit".  Good idea... you don't pay for your health care... someone else does!
    
    But how much of a credit do you get?  Good question!  And when do you get the credit... well the answer to that question is simple - you get it when you file your return.
    
    So you MUST buy insurance now but you have to wait for your credit!  How are you going to do that?  If you don't you'll be fined!
    
    And $15 an hour may not seem like much to the Republican or Democratic Senators... but it's an economic reality for millions!
    
    Mandating Coverage is going to be an absolute disaster.  People simply won't have the money to pay... the people that can not afford insurance now will not be able to afford it later.  These are the people that do not have Health Insurance... so somebody is going to have to pay. It's not free.
    
    Who should pay for Health Insurance for those who do not have it?
    
    The Government has PROVEN unable to manage nearly everything they get their hands on.  Why should anyone believe they can manage health care?
    
    Clearly the system is ripe with abuse.  But what Corporate Entity is not?  The Oil industry?  Oil industry raises prices whenever they want and no one is proposing that people be forced to drive!
    
    Health Care is complex issue and deserves to be addressed not in a pork filled megabill... but issue by issue.
    
    Obama is hellbent on craming his agenda through in spite of the will of the masses... in spite of members of his own party.
    
    People want Health Care Reform.  But when you dig into this bill you'll find all it will do is hurt people.

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       Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Are you aware of and have a health-care bill that the majority of Americans want?

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          sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Who pays for those who can't?

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             Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Some of the same people who are paying for the uninsured, uncompensated health-care.

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                sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Well that's true but there's going to be a helluva alot more. I want something back for my money! I want those who can't or refuse to work picking up trash in our parks and along roadways, something anyway! No more free rides everyone has to work even the project people or no nothing! Thats the only way it's fair.

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                   Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Fair enough.

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                      sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      I'm for anything thats fair for everyone and everyone pays but I don't think thats whats going to happen. I think the working will be doing the carrying.

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                         Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         Or maybe less of the carrying. This bill will not be perfect but it's better than the status quo. Once it is implemented and assessed, then changes and adjustments can be made.

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       Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       MikeNV,
       
       How does the following items of the health-care bill hurt people?
       
       -Prevention of arbitrary premium increases and coverage revokes
       -Elimination of pre-existing conditions
       -Reduction of both health-care cost and the deficit

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