Greece today, ??? tomorrow..

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   Paragliderposted 13 years ago

   The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has come to the rescue of Greece. Really? The IMF 'gives' Greece bail-out money (at interest, and with strings attached). The bail-out goes to the Financial Institutions. So they're all right, Jack. The IMF insists on Austerity Measures. The Government inflicts the Austerity Measures on the people. The rich remain rich. The people lose jobs, pensions, savings, opportunities.
   The Greeks are politically aware enough to understand this and to riot and rebel against the injustice.
   Meanwhile, in other places, media-controlled masses are orchestrated into protest against any attempt to regulate free market capitalism.
   It's a strange world.
   Anyone old enough to remember 'the Patty Hearst effect'?

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      Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Many in Greece believe in the right to benefit from every single social program ever invented by man, wasting billions in government corruption and establishing a bureaucracy the size of Mount Olympus,…. but at the same time they have a strong aversion towards paying taxes of any sort.   You can’t have it both ways.

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         Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Corruption is dealt with by regulation. The bail-out money is money for the rich and debt for everyone else. I'm not 'asking for it both ways'. Just saying it shouldn't always be 'one way', the way of the usurer.

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            Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            you get what you pay for.. they gravy train had to end...
            
            and poll after poll of Greek citizens show they are in favor of the austerity measures (which are been proposed by the Socialist government) in order to avoid bankruptcy
            
            Its the typical minority groups of violent anarchists, communists (and the unions they back) that have taken to the streets to cause trouble (as they usually do).

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               Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Ah, so if you pay for a pension, you'll get a pension?
               Apparently not.
               But then again: To him that hath shal it be given. From him that hath not, shal it be taken away, even that which he hath.
               Usury rules, OK.

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                  Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Look, my relatives are the ones who are going to have to suffer, but the problem is that the Greeks avoid paying for things (via tax evasion) yet want the all the social benefits they can think of, and not just pensions.   The growing fiscal deficits in Greece over the last decade were essentially the result of a massive increase in the size of state social benefits, from 20% to close to 30% of GDP, without any significant increase in tax revenues.
                  
                  If you overspend, you run out of money... it's as simple as that.  Here are examples of the types of policies that have led Greece to where it is today...
                  
                  -->Tens of thousands of unmarried or divorced daughters of civil servants collect their dead parents’ pensions, weighing on a social security system that experts say will collapse in 15 years unless it is overhaul.  About 40,000 women benefit from the allowance at an annual cost of around 550 million euros ($731.5 million Cdn.), according to economic website capital.gr.
                  
                  -->While the law protects civil servants from dismissal, it allows them to retire with a pension in their 40s.
                  
                  -->In a system where bonuses can add 5 to 1,300 euros to a monthly paycheck, some civil servants are paid extra for using a computer. Some get a bonus for speaking a foreign language and others for arriving at work on time, while many foresters get a bonus for working outdoors.
                  
                  --->Labour unions foiled government attempts to sell debt-ridden Olympic Airways for decades, costing Greek taxpayers millions while employees enjoyed generous benefits—their family members could fly around the world for free. Olympic was sold in 2008, but only after the state lavishly compensated or re-hired about 4,600 employees
                  
                  --->The state owns 74 companies, mainly utilities and transport firms, many of which are overstaffed and loss-making, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. The main rail company employs about 9,000 people and reported losses of 800 million euros ($1.06 billion) in 2008.
                  
                  -->Hundreds of state-appointed committees employ staff though it is not clear what they all do. Greece has a committee to manage Lake Kopais, which dried out in the 1930s.  One Greek newspaper estimated that committees employ more than 10,000 people and cost over 220 million euros ($292.6 million) a year.

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                     Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     I'm not questioning the need for fiscal reform in Greece. But to hand sovereignty to the International Bankers is disastrous. It increases the debt, thereby enriching the super rich. It depersonalises the recovery process, devolving control to faceless ones. And of course, the repayment pain is felt by the working and middle classes.

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            Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            It always is though.  Only during those reset periods where the elite get so greedy outraged mobs overthrow them does anything change.  And that is just a reset (or semi-reset depending on who lead/foments the revolt).  Wealth gets redistributed, new power players take over and it starts over. Humanity is a crappy species on a large scale.  The beauty of people only happens in individuals.
            
            (Hey, Para, does this mean you're gonna start writing again?)

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               Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               In individuals and in localised caring societies.
               Sometimes even in distributed networks.
               But not in board rooms.

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   Daniel Carterposted 13 years ago

   A shadow of things to come, I believe. The stratification of the super rich and middle class are making paupers out of the middle class, slowly but surely. These are circumstances that are not unsimilar to the French Revolution. The difference, it's much more global than in the 18th century.
   
   And yes, I do think we live in a society with serious "entitlement" issues when it comes to money.

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      Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Capitalism has to have winners and losers. Used to be that winners were towns or countries. Losers were overseas so nobody cared. Now, with globalisation the stratification is unashamedly vertical. The winners will shaft anyone, anywhere, including at home. The international ruling class is running rampant through the depression they have created. But some folk can't/won't see it.

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   Pandoras Boxposted 13 years ago

   Wow. Two of my favorite hubbers both just independently mentioned revolution.

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      Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      We're awaiting orders from you, love.
      

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         Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         It's coming yet, for a' that...

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   Amanda Severnposted 13 years ago

   Here in the UK we are also mired in debt. I wonder whether we will take to the streets if we end up in the hands of the IMF, and similar austerity measures are laid down to those in Greece.

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      CMHypnoposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Taking to the streets to commit acts of violence and destroy property is not going to help the UK's economic problems, but will probably add to them.
      
      Greece relies heavily on tourism, but how many people are going to want to visit Athens when there is violent rioting going on? London also has a large tourist industry, so again how much damage would be done to London's economy and reputation?
      
      Three people, including a pregnant woman, have been killed in Athens because the bank they were working in was set ablaze by a howling mob of rioters.  The rioters then would not let the emergency services near the building to put out the fire and rescue those trapped.  This is disgusting.  There is no cause on earth that justifies innocent people going about their day's work being killed like this.  The rioters responsible need to be rounded up and tried for murder.

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         Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Criminality is criminality and should be dealt with.
         But it's in the nature of criminality that the small criminal hurts someone nearby while the big criminal hurts far more people far away from him.
         The International Usurers are responsible for more deaths than any local rioters.

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   earnestshubposted 13 years ago

   It looks like several other countries will be in the hands of the bankers soon as well.
   
   The whole meltdown fiasco was engineered by those who benefit from it, with no regard for even whole countries' populations. I think it is disgusting myself.

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      Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Another conspiracy afoot!

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   poetlorraineposted 13 years ago

   Ireland is in a bit of a monetary mess to say the least.

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   prettydarkhorseposted 13 years ago

   Hi Sir Dave,
   IMF is still a bank, I can see what happened to Philippines -- people cant take what IMF is doing as well. Terrorists will always use people who are vulnerable like Patty.
   
   You can't silence people if they dont know where they going to get their next food etc. and they are pressured. The government itself is tied to the conditions of IMF which is the biggest lender and a leech.

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   tony0724posted 13 years ago

   Seems to me the IMF has everybody over a barrel. I believe there needs to be regulation too. But even then somebody is going to benefit

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   Alison Grahamposted 13 years ago

   I'm just waiting to see what happens here in UK after today's elections.  None of the parties seems willing to spell out exactly where the cuts are going to have to come from so, we could be on the streets too - watch this space!

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10. 87

    Paragliderposted 13 years ago

    The idea that you can help a debt problem by lending more money is a non-starter. All it can ever do is delay and intensify the pain, while surrendering sovereignty to the over-lender. And that's not a conspiracy theory; it's simple arithmetic. (Compound interest, or usury, actually).

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