Goverment Education Spending vs Student Test Scores

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   lady_love158posted 14 years ago

   http://wac.0873.edgecastcdn.net/800873/ … 217111.jpg
   
   This graph says it all!

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      artladerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      > This graph says it all!
      
      Hi, Lady Love 158,
      
      I respectfully disagree. The graph does not say it all. Not by a long shot.
      
      But it is good that you put this out there for rational discussion among reasonable people.
      
      I thank you for doing that.
      
      Regards,
      Art

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2. 64

   Lisa HWposted 14 years ago

   I'd both agree and disagree.  It says it all about some things. 
   
   My reply turned into a half of a Hub, so I think I'll finish that Hub and post it in the near future. (That's one of the good things about hanging out in the forums:  inspiration for Hubs.     ). 
   
   A lot of kids and schools are suffering in some ways because of lack of spending.  At the same time, the government creates some needs for spending, itself (and including spending on education).  Also, there's a gross and sickening degree of spending waste that's separate from what is spent on schools.  Then again, a lot of people think that throwing money at some problems will solve them, when that doesn't happen to be the solution to that particular type of problem.  This is yet one more of those issues that isn't black-or-white.

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      Jim Hunterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      "A lot of kids and schools are suffering in some ways because of lack of spending."
      
      There is no lack of spending.
      
      There is only a lack of positive results from that spending.

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         lady_love158posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Exactly! I think what the graph does say is the Dept of Education should be eliminated. It's a total waste of money!

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            John Holdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Having recently been exposed to the product of the American education system I find myself somewhat in agreement with you.

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         Lisa HWposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         There may not be any "lack of spending" in general; but there are schools where there is lack of spending on things that are desperately needed.  That's the kind of "lack of spending" I was referring to.

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   mikelongposted 14 years ago

   I don't believe that the Department of Education is a waste of money...
   
   As I posted in another thread about this topic, a lot of education money is doled out to contractors, whether for construction, for new books, or for other things...
   
   How many new editions of Algebra books are needed?
   
   Does geometry change every year, or every two years?
   
   Look at the ratio of bow many dollars are spent on education compared to how many of those dollars really reach the classroom....
   
   Additionally, as an educator, I see a disconnect between many teachers/administrations and the youth at large...
   
   There is also inequality in terms of how salaries are paid to staff...
   
   My mother, who is a teacher with the Los Angeles Unified School District..  She has worked with the District for over 20 years....and she is still making less than 40,000 dollars a year....
   
   When the District hires a new I.T. person, that guy (or lady) earns 90,000 dollars a year starting....
   
   Waste.....  Inequality.....  And this trickles to the classroom...
   
   Too many are focused on dollars=results ideations...but this is not how it works...
   
   Reform is needed, but the approach has to be holistic..
   
   Additionally, I believe focusing on only math and science to be seriously flawed....
   
   History, Language, Civics....these have to be part of the education fundamental block....  I can care less if we have scientists to put people on Mars if we don't have a populace capable of keeping our democracy alive and thriving...who understand our political and legal processes..

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      ShortStoryposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Let me guess: You don't teach math or science.

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   Written By Jimposted 14 years ago

   I think one thing that needs to be taken into account is the growing lack of parental support and involvement in the lives of their own children. Teachers were never meant to replace parents, and in many cases this is exactly what they are being called on to do.
   
   The role schools are increasingly being forced to play has evolved into far more than just educational. In addition to their expected position of teacher, our educators are now playing counselor, life coach, role model and far too often, surrogate parent to today's students.
   
   No amount of money is going to replace a stable homes life and caring, involved parents. Sadly, our society seems bent on marginalizing the "traditional" family.

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      artladerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      "No amount of money is going to replace a stable homes life and caring, involved parents. Sadly, our society seems bent on marginalizing the 'traditional' family."
      
      Yep. Well-said.

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   mikelongposted 14 years ago

   Teachers always played that role....
   
   Spending 8 hours a day, 5 days a week is a huge influencing force on anyone....  Kids are spending more of their "awake" hours during a given week at school than with their families...
   
   Families are having to work harder...and the traditional 8-4, 9-5 work shifts don't exist as a norm...
   
   I had a fuller, more specific, overall better response composed, but the backspace button completely destroyed it...
    
   We need to be honest with the reality we live in...

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   klarawieckposted 14 years ago

   They teach two years in a classroom and think they have what it takes to be promoted to higher positions. Those sitting behind the desks making decisions about education have no clue what it's like to be a teacher nowadays. They need to let teachers teach, they need to get rid of all the useless standardized testing and paperwork that takes time away from actual teaching and learning. If they took the money they spend on coming up with new tests and new methods and all that blah blah blah, they'll be able to hire staff to clean the floors and bathrooms of public schools. They are an unhealthy environment for the kids! They can also use the money to give children a better nutrition at the schools. There is more to education and raising good citizens than numbers and graphs.

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   Evan G Rogersposted 14 years ago

   a lot of schools near where I live have recently received levy money.
   
   They chose to blow a huge amount of that money on things called "Smart Boards".
   
   Not only do the teachers not use them properly, but most people just don't use them.
   
   They're basically "interactive projectors". They're a huge waste of money, but so many schools are wasting their money on them.

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   Evan G Rogersposted 14 years ago

   My last post on this forum.
   
   recently, in a discussion with some teachers, one was talking about how her fellow math teachers weren't getting together to discuss the curriculum with one another.
   
   I suggested: "Why don't you all just meet for lunch every other day to talk"
   
   "Oh, we can't because we all have different schedules"
   
   "then why not just meet after school"
   
   "Oh, we want to spend time with our families"
   
   "... then why not meet up on the weekends"
   
   "but it's our weekend! we shouldn't work then!"
   
   "........ then... just send each other e-mails...."
   
   "no one checks their e-mails! Don't be foolish!"
   
   Many of these teachers are making $60,k+ a year and can't even do their jobs.
   
   I won't go into more detail, because this post might cost me or one of the other teachers (if they read it, they'd know who they were) a job.
   
   Anyway, I brought up issues like this with the administrator of the school, to which he replied "well,.... they negotiated with their unions, and they're allowed to do all of this stuff".
   
   .... hmm...
   
   I brought the conversation up in one of my graduate school classes the next day. Immediately all the other grad students began making excuses for the teachers!! Even though they had never met before!! It was easy to shoot down their arguments ("they couldn't even send out e-mails"). It was astonishing to see how much was "owed" them, despite their not even doing any work.
   
   On a regular basis in my Graduate program, future teachers complain about how they won't be making enough money... I relentless demand "then drop out and change your occupation plan", but they honestly think that they're owed $100k+, even though many of them will end up the same way as the teachers in the conversation I just posted (it was almost verbatim. I wish i had it recorded. It blew my mind).
   
   =====================
   This discussion should highlight that the roots of the problems with schools start much deeper than we think they do.
   
   It's almost an ideology that is causing the problems! Many students honestly think that they're entitled to be rich without working hard. They've pretty much openly said so in class.
   
   It's amazing. No one thinks they have to work for their money! Teachers are signing contracts and not following through on them, students don't understand that they have to work for money, and everyone thinks they're entitled to do no work but still make money!!!
   
   Maybe a little poverty in this country would be a good thing to remind us all of what hard work is!!

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      artladerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Dear Evan,
      
      I do not doubt what have have written.
      
      All I can tell you is that where I live, teachers do meet at lunch, they do meet outside of school and they check their email. At least that is true among the teachers I know well.
      
      And some are earning more than 60K, but most are earning much less than that.
      
      If people are not doing their jobs, someone ought to address it. That is true for educators, doctors, clerks, soldiers, for everyone.
      
      I am sure we all agree on that.
      
      Regards,
      Art

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   lady_love158posted 14 years ago

   Its not teacher salaries that are the problem its tenure! If teachers would expose themselves to market forces they'd probably do much better salary wise especially if they're good teachers! Federal spending though is just dollars wasted and I doubt much of that money goes to supporting teachers earnings.

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    DonDWestposted 14 years ago

    Part of the problem is cultural. The past ten years, I've seen a process of "glorifying" the teacher. I've seen this both in Canada and the USA. A lot of people see teachers as altruistic saints and this mind set trickles down to the rest of us. The biggest falacy is "teachers are underpaid," when in truth if we examine hours worked, benefits, vacation time, etc. the average teacher is paid more per hour than an average chartered accountant.
    
    Teachers are not underpaid, however they're lousy with their own money. There's a reason why the administrators can't do a budget and why the teachers can't teach the kids about money.

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