Is proof always avaliable?

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   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   Can science prove that dreams exist? I think that they can! 
   Can a person place or thing which is in the dream prove that the person having the dream exists?
   IJust a seed for thought.

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      wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Dream:  The technical term given to the hallucinations that occur in REM sleep.  Sure, they exist and science agrees with that.
      
      Can a hallucination prove a person exists?  By definition, no.

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         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Then I would suspect that by definition a hallucination wouldn't know that it is a hallucination.
         even though all of my hallucination seemes to think they were real.
         When I am in the dream everything seems to be real until I leave them.
         
         How do we know that everything that we think is real isn't just someone elses hallucination?
         We just don't know what we don't know, Ya Know.  And there are some things that we never will.

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            wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Sometimes I do believe that someone is hallucinating my life.  Surely nothing else but a hallucination could be that crazy!

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               Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               YEP    me too   And  sometimes I'm watching myself asking why am I doing this? This isn't the kind of thing I would do cause I know better. LOL

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            psycheskinnerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I think by definition a hallucination doesn't know anything. It is like a drawing or a photograph--it may look like a person, but it is not a person.

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               Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I think it was someone else that was calling a dream a halusination.   Me? I don't know if it is or not?

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      kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Proof is always available because the mind can provide any and all the proof it desires...both for the yea or nay. So therefore the proof is the mind itself.
      
      The evidence of the dream is the dreamer who say I am dreaming.
      
      The dream must first acknowledge itself as a dream, and at then at the point recognises it origin as the dreamer.
      
      The dream that never recognises itself as the dream within the dreamer, fades as if it never was, both to itself and the dreamer.
      
      So  we see that You the man is the dream within the dreamer...
      To recognise yourself is to recognise the dreamer...
      If not you fade away both to yourself and the dreamer.

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   MentisLudosposted 12 years ago

   Proof isn't always available, however pieces of a proof are. This is why theories exist. Theories have pieces of proof/evidence but not completely solid proof. In many cases, however, proof is readily available.
   
   As for the dream discussion: Proof that you are real by means of a dream telling you that you are is only available through your own exploration in that dream. This is how the process of Lucid Dreaming occurs. If you need proof that you are the real thing within a dream world you look for pieces within the world. Once you do, you are in control and can essentially do anything your mind can think of.
   
   I apologize if I misinterpreted your question or the topic! Kudos.

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      Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks for your answer.  Many years ago I was experimenting with my dreams and did accomplish recognizing that I was concious within the dream and yes you can then influence what goes on within the dream.
          But then most of my dreams were somehow connected to probable events which most often did happen in this world.  Sometimes it is good news but most often not.
         I found that in my case diet affects my ability to dream or at least remember them.     
         
        But I was thinking about  "What IF"  our reality is little more than someone elses dream.  And that someone is  called  "God ?"  to some of us.   
      Not saying it is ....   Just pondering a SiFi  circumstance.

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         MentisLudosposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Ah, well within that spectrum of though we can also ponder if we are simply a perfect simulation. Or even an imperfect one. Perhaps we are deep in the simulation field where the original creators are now long gone and that it has been many millenia since the original has been created. Perhaps we are a simulation of a simulation, which we can even extend to further levels of simulation. We could be as deep as the 4th or 1000th simulation of an ancient civilization.
         
         In this case we should ponder how we can interact with the person. Even if it's a dream, formed in another person's mind, is the only way to interact with them through meeting them? Or are they viewing this dream in a 3rd person omniscient sense? Does a "God" walk among us?

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            Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Nothing is as it apears to be.  How much creative power does our words and thoughts have ???

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   A Driveby Quipperposted 12 years ago

   Can a person in a dream dream about the dreamer?

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      Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I bet he can if they imagine that he exists?

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   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   Kess  wrote
   Proof is always available because the mind can provide any and all the proof it desires...both for the yea or nay. So therefore the proof is the mind itself.
   = - = -
   ME    Proof in this instance is as is justification. Self proof and self justification to do or not to do anything we want to do or not to do. It is easy to find justification in and of ourselves.  This seems to be enough.
   ==========================
   The evidence of the dream is the dreamer who say I am dreaming.
   
   The dream must first acknowledge itself as a dream, and at then at the point recognises it origin as the dreamer.
   = - = -
   ME
   This might be true for those dreams in which we find ourselves knowing that we are dreaming, but most instances we do not recognize this.
   ========================
   
   The dream that never recognises itself as the dream within the dreamer, fades as if it never was, both to itself and the dreamer.
   - = - = -
   ME
   I think that many dreams that are not recognized as a dream still maintains its value if it has any.
   Many dreams are but the subconcious playing out potential posabilities  to choose from that may  become reality.  These sort remain in the subconcious until that time that they are no longer potential outcomes.
   =================
   
   So  we see that You the man is the dream within the dreamer...
   To recognise yourself is to recognise the dreamer...
   If not you fade away both to yourself and the dreamer.
   = - = -
   ME
   I don't know how to respond to this. I kinda understand and agree and yet kinda disagree but don't know how to put either into words.  If I'm thinking what you are thinking?

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      kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Jerami stop dividing my post so as to respond, by doing that you miss its meaning,
      because  every line is  incorporated each making and strengthening  that single point.
      
      By dividing you make each line say a different story, thus  you lose the singularity of the  point made.
      
      This is why you will agree and disagree at the same time, not really understanding why.

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         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Sorry about laps in time. thought it was bed time but couldn't sleep so I'm back for a little while.
             I read your post three times undivided as you say and in order to respond accurately and agreeing in part, I didn't know how else to diffrenciate what parts I agreed with and why/how I differed in opinion. In some parts I "thought" your statement intentially or not encompased ideas that might not be accurate.

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            kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Jerami all I have said is summarized in my last paragraph,
            Which is the single point being made..
            
            
            You are the dream within the dreamer..
            
            The reality of this is the reason why you are here on hubpages pondering philosophical issues.
            The dream trying figure out the reason for its being....
            
            If you never work it out, then you as a man fades away into death, and continues to as if you have never lived in the mind of the dreamer.
            
            But if you do work it out, you also know the exact nature of the dreamer, and you find  that you are a dreamer with dreams just as he is...
            Now you as the dream continues forever in the mind of the dreamer,
            And you as the dreamer continues forever with the  present continuous fulfillment of your dreams.
            
            This is what composes all of your reality, Which is called heaven, kingdom of God, Nirvana, everlasting life etc etc.
            
            The total unity of the Dream and the Dreamer.
            
            if you have not seen this as a practical application to your own Life, you will only understand me in part, thus finding reason to disagree here and agree there.
            
            This might be because you do not yet understand the reality that you are the dream within the dreamer.

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               Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I know I am not explaining this adequately but here goes anyway.
               
               As you say ... "You are the dream within the dreamer".
               I agree that I am the dream and the dream is me. "EVERYTHING really is relative.
               The point of the OP was the existence of a higher  realm  is just as difficult as for our dreams to prove the existence of the dreamer.   Through the interaction of the dreamer, . When we become a part of the dream AND become aware of where we are and what we are doing. Then there is evidence in the dream that a creator of the dream does exist. though this proof leaves when we do.
               I don't think we can bring with us physical PROOF of a physical existence into the dream reality that can be left behind when we return to this existence. If we could? that dream would be changed. That physical proof would compromise that dream world making it more physical.
               
               This whole world is like that dream ; separate and different while always being connected.            Can either survive without the other?
               = - = - =
               If you never work it out, then you as a man fades away into death, and continues to as if you have never lived in the mind of the dreamer.
               
               But if you do work it out, you also know the exact nature of the dreamer, and you find  that you are a dreamer with dreams just as he is...
               Now you as the dream continues forever in the mind of the dreamer,
               And you as the dreamer continues forever with the  present continuous fulfillment of your dreams.
               
               This is what composes all of your reality, Which is called heaven, kingdom of God, Nirvana, everlasting life etc etc.
               
               The total unity of the Dream and the Dreamer.
               
               if you have not seen this as a practical application to your own Life, you will only understand me in part, thus finding reason to disagree here and agree there.
               
               This might be because you do not yet understand the reality that you are the dream within the dreamer.
               ==========
               When we put our thoughts on paper ..  different people will see multiple meanings which the writer "Might" be saying.   This too is why I can agree in part with things you say. and not want to agree in total. You might not be saying everything that I see as posible meanings of your words.

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                  kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  The Dream ask, who am I?,
                  This is the dream recognising that it is...
                  
                  The dream then ask "would be where did I come from,
                  what is my destination, and to what purpose I am"?
                  
                  These questions would lead the dream to the Dreamer.
                  
                  Now the proof of the Dreamer to the dream lies in the
                  fact that the dream is able to pose the questions.
                  
                  The proof of the dream to the dream lies in the
                  fact that it is able to ask these questions.
                  
                  This is the proof/evidence and is spiritual in nature.
                  
                  Physical proof/evidence is nonexistent to any who
                  have not seen/accept the spiritual proof/evidence.
                  
                  Since Physicality is not a product of itself
                  it is weak to disguise evidence/proof.
                  For itself  serves as proof/evidence of spirituality.
                  
                  So Jerami you are dream within the dreamer
                  and you are the Dreamer with the dream
                  
                  The ultimate proof/evidence of the Dreamer to the dream is the dream in knowing that it is.
                  The ultimate proof/evidence of the dream to the Dreamer is the  Dreamer knowing that he Is.
                  
                  Jerami ponder this a while and you would see that all evidence you ever need is you, which is more than enough for any and everyone.
                  
                  Anyone who says different will make a liar of themselves.

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                     Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     "The ultimate proof/evidence of the Dreamer to the dream is the dream in knowing that it is".
                     
                     That is the origional question. How can we know if a person in the dream can be aware of the dreamer, and how would we know if it did or not.
                     What Proof could that person in the dream  provide for another person (in the same dream) who does not believe in the dreamER?

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                        kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        i have answered multiple times, maybe you are looking for a more complicated answer....
                        
                        The proof/evidence is the fact of the presence of the question " who am I, what am I "
                        
                        This is more than enough proof /evidence for anyone in the dream, be it you or them.
                        This fulfills both the physical and spiritual proof /evidence.
                        
                        If This proof/evidence is rejected, then that one will not be convinced by any other thing.
                        And that one will not be remembered by the dreamer neither by those in the dream.
                        ( blotted out of the book of Life)

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   waynetposted 12 years ago

   Proof is always available as I had a dream only the other night and I was sat on the toilet straining a little too hard and something just popped out.....it was a Ghoulie....Oh my God!!!! I said What are you doing in my Toilet? and he said I want to bite your tea bag!!!! Oh nooooo I said....OOOOh no you don't Oh my God!!!!
   
   I woke up with a tea bag on my face.....so the proof is irrefutable

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      Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      truth is stranger than fiction,  or is it?

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   Emile Rposted 12 years ago

   What constitutes proof varies from person to person. I see no need to prove anything on a philosophical or spiritual level or to be overly interested in another person's standard of proof. What I find to be vastly more interesting is to attempt to determine the reasons which compel people to  either demand proof, or to step to the forefront in a desire to prove the unprovable.

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      Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      YEP    Me too  ...   The only thing that I am 100% sure of is that I am never more than 99% certain of anything.
      
         Absolute Proof does not exist except for when I think I might have a tooth ache.  And It feels like I do.

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         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Cosmically, I don't know anything. But I'm 100% sure that, in the final analysis, what any of us think or believe  during this brief moment in eternity couldn't matter.

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            Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Concerning the overall scheme of things, I couldn't agree more ... But concerning the individual self; I think what we believe does or could make a big difference when we are moving out of this realm.
            
               I have seen the power released by words proceeding from my mouth which were productive and destructive in the lives of people who happen to be in the immediate enviroment.. Words coming from our lips have a power of their own that once set free we have no controll over.
            
            How much less are our thoughts producing both positive and negative affects within our inner selves.
            I think it quite possible that our thoughts and emotions, at the moment of our physical death, contributes signifigantly to where we find ourself once the transition is complete.

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               Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Well, that post could imply what 'made in the image' is talking about. We do have the power to alter reality through the word on this level. We have the ability to affect this reality with our thoughts (in that body language affects how others perceive our words).
               
               But that is this reality. I don't know that we can create change in another reality. I don't see how that would be fair to the majority, or ourselves. Ignorance cannot be the motivating force behind the ultimate reality.

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   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   But that is this reality. I don't know that we can create change in another reality. I don't see how that would be fair to the majority, or ourselves. Ignorance cannot be the motivating force behind the ultimate reality.
   ===========
   
   I didn't intend to imply that we do change anything in that other reality but;  just Maybe, whatever our mental state is at the moment of transformation from this reality to the next ; this condition may determine what kind of reality (which already exists) that our condition fits into most harmoniously.
   
        Something like that anyway.

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      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Maybe. Compared to my musings, you may have  way overthought this. How many realities do you think exist on a spiritual level?

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   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   If a person is to believe in "A" spiritual reality; should it be easier to think that there is only one compared to believing there are many?

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      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I suppose I am of the opinion that it is a display of ego to assume that anything beyond this life would focus on fulfilling our desires. I assume that whatever lies beyond is the ultimate reality and once this life is over we return to it. If it exists and we are destined to go there then this, to me, implies that it is where some part of us came from. We are a part of it as firmly as our feet are planted in this reality. I wouldn't think returning would  entail happiness, sadness, fear or joy. Those are human emotions which would be left behind. So, I don't think any one of us is in jeopardy of not fitting in due to our mental state at death.  Its very nature would be harmonious and that harmony would be our nature as a part of it.

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         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         This is  very good theology  and I would say that there is a high probability that we find something similar to be true.
              There are many similar posabilities all of which MIGHT be true.  Sometimes I wish I could stop pondering such things for as you have stated before ...   When it is all said and done, what we think it will be has nothing to do with what it is. Or something like that..

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