Hellenization of the Church under Paul

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   paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

   http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/39650
   
   Deborah Sexton Wrote:
   
   “The Hellenization of the Church not only produced a corrupted New Testament, but caused a Greek deity to displace the true Messiah.”
   
   Paarsurrey says:
   
   I agree with the above mentioned Second Point in the post of our friend Deborah Sexton.
   
   Paul he himself admits in Acts; he was an enemy of Jesus and his friends. Even after his made up vision on the Road to Damascus Paul remained as such and very cleverly invented a new religion but named it “Christianity” to corrupt the true teachings of Jesus.
   
   Paul (and his Roman Church) traded the true teachings of Jesus with the Trinity of the Greek and for this:
   
   Paul claimed independence from the "mother church" in Jerusalem
   Paul, as the "Apostle to the Gentiles", was in violent opposition to the original 12 Apostles.
   Paul was the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."
   
   Thanks
   
   I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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   1. 61

      The Last Quillposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I agree that Paul was persecutor of the first church before he was called, but where in the bible can you read that he traded the true teachings of Christ for the trinity. Where in the bible paul taught about the trinity.
      
      FYI trinity was invented around 325 AD at the council of Nicea, and I don't beleive the trinity either.

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         paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Hi friend
         
         It is Paul and his Church.
         
         Thanks

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2. 60

   Paper Wolfposted 13 years ago

   As I posted to Deborah's Forum Post. The helenization of the Church was probably a by-product of the young Churches battle against gnosticism.
   
   If this Hellenization presented a corrupted New Testament, what is to be said of the Quoran? After all, Muhammad's ministry did not come along until over 600 years after Yashua's crucifixion.
   
   That Christianity has lost touch with it's Hebraic roots, there is no question.
   
   Speaking of "made up" visions...what is this?
   
   Paarsurrey: "Even after his made up vision on the Road to Damascus Paul remained as such and very cleverly invented a new religion but named it “Christianity” to corrupt the true teachings of Jesus."
   
   Please Paarsurrey. Give it a rest.

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3. 0

   Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago

   a. that posting was derived for an author, so the value of it can be seen as generalization or opinion. There is no 100% historical fact in it. Although it seems likely.
   
   b. Saul's sudden acceptance of life without law, is surprising, in that as a Hebrew scribe of the Law and staunch assassin of believers, using his Roman citizenship influence, seems puzzling at first. But when you then look at the events he himself and his assistants Timothy and Barnabas dictate, leads one to accept he was genuine. After much pressure from his peers in Rome and the Jewish leaders -he knew very well (as did Peter), he finally stepped to the final swing and puts his own life as proof he did believe, perhaps so those in Judea, Sumeria, Rome, Asia, etc would believe after all.
   
   Was he 100% accurate in all his expressions of his belief, I would say no. Same as Moses wrote about his life and expressions...

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      paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Twenty One Days wrote:
      
      "Was he (Paul) 100% accurate in all his expressions of his belief, I would say no. Same as Moses wrote about his life and expressions..."
      
      Paarsurrey says:
      
      Hi friend Twenty One Days
      
      There is no comparison between Paul and Moses. Moses was 100 % genuine; Paul was 100 wrong; he never saw any vision, just a story if you read it carefully.
      
      Paul was an enemy of Jesus and his friends; and he remained one till his last breath. He died a death of false Prophet.
      
      I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
      
      Thanks
      
      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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      1. 0

         Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         dude, you're annoying and irrelevant.
         shall report for spam if you continue to signature every post and not actually engage the dialogue at hand.
         
         also, paul/saul was not a prophet. so how could he be false?

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      2. 59

         Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Muhammad was a despot and murderer and remained one till his last breath. He died a death of a false prophet, too.

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            paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Hi friend
            
            Please name the person he murdered with reference.
            
            Thanks
            
            I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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            1. 59

               Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               He murdered tens/hundreds of thousands of people. He had anyone murdered who criticized him or didn't accept Islam, Abu Afak, as only one example. 

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                  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Hi friend
                  
                  Muhammad never killed anybody; that is why I asked you to provide a reference of Muhammad's own time; not later.
                  
                  Thanks
                  
                  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

                  replyreport
                  1. 59

                     Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     That is a lie. Muhammad had tens/hundreds of people murdered if they didn't accept Islam or if they criticized him. You have rejected the truth.

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4. 63

   Greek Oneposted 13 years ago

   don't you go knocking the Greeks now!
   
   I am Greek One peaceful at times

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   1. 50

      paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hi friend
      
      What does that mean? Please elaborate for me.
      
      Thanks
      
      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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      1. 63

         Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         It means I forgive you for being the s**t disturber that you are .
         
         as is the way of my Lord Jesus, the Son of God.
         
         Peace be with you

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         1. 50

            paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Hi friend
            
            English is not my mother tongue; I asked frankly what I could not understand. If you make it clear I can reply you. No inconvienience intended; no compulsion whatsoever.
            
            May God bless you!
            
            Thanks
            
            I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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            1. 63

               Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Thanks.. may God bless you too!

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5. 59

   Beelzedadposted 13 years ago

   "You gave the lie to God's religion and the man Ahmad!  [Muhammad]
   
   By him who was your father, evil is the son he produced!
   
   A "hanif" gave you a thrust in the night saying
   
   "Take that Abu Afak in spite of your age!"
   
   Though I knew whether it was man or jinn
   
   Who slew you in the dead of night (I would say naught)."
   
   
   Umama b. Muzayriya said about Salim b. Umayr after he murdered Abu Afak when Muhammad said to his followers, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?"

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      paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hi friend
      
      Please provide a reference from a book written in Muhammad's own time.
      
      I don't see any reference provided by you.
      
      Thanks
      
      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

      replyreport
6. 59

   Beelzedadposted 13 years ago

   "Thus Islam was gradually transformed from a purely spiritual mission into a militant and punitive organization whose progress depended on booty from raids and revenue from the zakat tax."
   
   Ali Dashti wrote prior to listing all of the assassinations Muhammad had ordered.

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      paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hi friend
      
      Ali Dashti 1894 -1982 was a recent person; he did not quote any good source.
      
      Thanks
      
      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

      replyreport
      1. 59

         Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         That is your opinion, I do not agree. No compulsion. Muhammad murdered many thousands of people. He assassinated anyone who didn't agree with him.

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            FranyaBlueposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            There were battles during the early days of Islam. Tribes attacked the Prophet and the believers and I think they were in their right to fight back.
            
            Also, I know you were just quoting but I thought I would mention that Zakat is paid by Muslims and it always goes to the poor or to the orphans.

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            1. 59

               Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Muhammad ruled by the sword, attacked and killed anyone who didn't convert to Islam.
               
               
               
               What about Jizya? Muslims extort monies from anyone who isn't Muslim.

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                  FranyaBlueposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  If he killed people who didn't convert to Islam then what would be the need for the Jizya?

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                     paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Hi friend FranyaBlue
                     
                     A good question.
                     
                     Thanks
                     
                     I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

                     replyreport
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                     Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Because the Jizya tax was introduced after Muhammad died. Extortion.

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                        FranyaBlueposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        but the jizya is mentioned in the Quran which we all know was revealed at the time of the Prophet so it was actually introduced during the Prophets life, not after.

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                           Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           The Quran was written after Muhammads death by other people just like the Bible.

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                              The Last Quillposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Do they have name like the scribes of the bible; Matthew, Luke, Peter, or Paul?

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                              1. 59

                                 Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 Not really, all the passages in the Quran originated through "Chinese Whispers" - word of mouth by ones memory. After Muhammad's death, those passages were eventually written down. Muhammad never knew the Quran as it was written, ever.

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                                 1. 61

                                    The Last Quillposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                    paarsurrey beleives in the words of mouth, no wonder you can't find his thoughts.
                                    
                                    The Bible then is the legit book of religion.

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                              FranyaBlueposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              I never said it was written in the Quran I said it was mentioned in it. The Quran was a recitation hence it being called the Quran. Just because a recitation was written down after it was recited doesn't really mean anything, it was still there within the recitation to start with.
                              
                              The physical book is not important as there have always been people who know every single word by heart.

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                              1. 59

                                 Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 Ever hear of Chinese Whispers? Using the Quran as a source for its own origin is like using the Bible to prove Jesus exists. 

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                                 1. 78

                                    FranyaBlueposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                    Chinese Whispers occurs because no one bothers to check if what they are whispering is correct. The word of mouth that you are talking about is actually the Hadith not the Quran and if you look into the collection and categorization of the Hadiths, much care was taken to make sure things were correct.
                                    
                                    As I said, there have always been people who knew every single word of the Quran - no Chinese Whispers just memorization, simple.

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                                       Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                       That Hadiths are something different from the Quran. The word of mouth was the Quran.
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       Maybe now, but not then. Chinese whispers = The Quran's origins.

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                                 paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 Hi friend
                                 
                                 You are absolutely right.
                                 
                                 Thanks

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7. 66

   Daniel Carterposted 13 years ago

   From what little I have read, it seems that Muhammed was a law maker and enforcer to some very barbaric tribes who were constantly at war, menacing each other. Muhammed was hailed as a great leader and spiritual guide because he actually unified so many of these warring tribes.
   
   However, he did so by the same means that everyone else committed their acts of atrocity. He DID use the sword, but more importantly, since he was the self proclaimed leader, he didn't actually have to carry out such acts later on. He could easily delegate such atrocities to others.
   
   He was clearly a power monger, addicted to his own power. He used it ruthlessly under the pretense of heavenly/Godly direction, so as to claim a higher power than his own for reinforcement. Therefore, warring tribes listened and converted to his religion, in essence because they had to or die. He had the power, the numbers and people to enforce it.
   
   And so although there are *countless* peaceful muslims today (only a fraction of the muslim population believes in hostile "cleansing") the tradition and history of violence of Muhammed (which is alluded to in the Q'ran) seems justified in the minds of muslims who believe that Muhammed's way is the example to follow. But what really happened is that Muhammed was one of the few forward thinkers of his day. His real aim was to unite his people, not destroy them. But to do so, he believed a sort of "cleansing" of the warring tribes had to happen.
   
   We see this thinking in Africa and Europe and many, many other places today. It doesn't work. The innocent suffer the most, and it continues relentlessly.
   
   Old thinking and old ways are perpetuated far too long.

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8. 50

   paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

   Beelzedad wrote:
   
   Not really, all the passages in the Quran originated through "Chinese Whispers" - word of mouth by ones memory. After Muhammad's death, those passages were eventually written down. Muhammad never knew the Quran as it was written, ever.
   
   The Last Quill wrote:
   
   paarsurrey beleives in the words of mouth, no wonder you can't find his thoughts.
   
   The Bible then is the legit book of religion.
   
   Paaarsurrey says:
   
   Quran was written down also as whatever portion was revealed from God Allah YHWH was also dictated to the scribes by Muhammad; but only as an auxiliary measure. More emphasis was on learning it by heart.
   
   Both systems of verbal committing to memory the text of Quran; and written text continue to date and support one another.
   
   Yes, OTBible or Toran was once a revealed book also; but now only glimpses of the orginal revelation could be found in it. Yet it has got the light if understood with reason correctly.
   
   Please quote a reference of presence of any Chinese at the time of Muhammad in Mecca or Medina.
   
   Chinese did got converted to Islam peacefully in large numbers; but that was much later.
   
   Thanks
   
   I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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9. 78

   FranyaBlueposted 13 years ago

   Beelzedad - I wrote "The word of mouth that you are talking about is actually the Hadith not the Quran"
   
   You replied "That Hadiths are something different from the Quran"
   
   I never said the two were the same thing. My whole point was that they are different things and that you sound like your getting them mixed up.
   
   Anyway, my hubscore has gone down since I started in this thread so I am off to write a hub!

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10. 57

    Jeramiposted 13 years ago

    Hellenization of the Church under Paul
         Did Paul do it or was it make to apear that way ???

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    1. 50

       paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Hi friend Jerami
       
       Paul was a clever enemy of Paul; he did it purosely to avenge his animosity with Jesus and his truthful friends.
       
       Thanks

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          Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          That just does not make sence to me. 
          For after all, the Church that The Rome Empire built would not have had to choose his writtings for inclusion into the canon.
             It is more likely that the Compromising that was done in the formation of this church  slanted the stories in the Empires favor. Thus allowing easier conversion for Romans into the Church.
             Either way, we will never know on this side of eterniity.

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             paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Hi friend Jerami
             
             Why wait for eternity?
             
             This could be done easily even from the corrupted Bible; one could know of the Paul's false teachings distinctively from the Jesus' truthful teachings; loud and clear.
             
             I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran
             
             Thanks
             
             I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

             replyreport
11. 56

    PAMITCHRUSposted 13 years ago

    Oh my, Paul is the second witness to Jesus himself, how can one then call him a false prophet? Paul himself was taught by Jesus via the Spirit. It is Paul who confirmed all of the words of Jesus and expounded upon them. It was Paul who revealed the depths to us of the Love of God. Oh goodness It is Paul who represents in type all those who will be  born out of season. which by far is the greatest percentage of all men. True Birth I refer too. Few have recieved what that first wave got back in the day.
    
      All will awaken to a bright light , just as Paul, in time to come. Due time and season. the Worst of sinners. all sinners. Paul reperesented all those. All will be stricken by light , and the light will speak , and the stricken will obey.
    
      Jesus of course said it first. Pauls confirms it. Paul is the keeper of the truths of the Love of God and proper doctrine thereof. He is the one God used to warn us of the sure mark of the last days. Paul who God chose to reveal the fullness of the counsel of God.
    
       Oh my.. Paul and Jesus disagree  ??? Paul a false prophet ?? Oh my .. Oh my...

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       paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Hi friend PAMITCHRUS
       
       It was a made up story of clever Paul; he was a false prophet like Joseph Smith Jr., and Bab; hence the faced the fate of false prophets as per Torah.
       
       Thanks
       
       I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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12. 64

    Mishaposted 13 years ago

    It's all about Rand Paul, right?

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