I personally don't think I will EVER let anyone or anything be my lord and master as long as I have free will. I certainly will never worship anyone, although I've had some men who wanted me to.
I am totally amazed that people allow something they can not see, touch, or communicate with become their lord and master, and become a slave to some words found in a cave somewhere.
Just baffles me something awful. Anyone else confused by this?
I can see how those who lack knowledge about life, feel the need to pray to some unknown god, so they can feel better about themselves.
It's really a selfish way to live with an unrealized false purpose, but just demonstrates the extent of their ignorance, either chosen or not.
I was once that way, but after many years of researching religion and it's doctrine, managed to break the indoctrination I willingly walked into in my early years of life.
I feel so much better now, because I know and understand the responsibility I am suppose to have for myself and my fellow human beings who live along side me.
Cag, I have to admit, I am coming to this same conclusion in my study also.
You only have to study the first 3 doctrines, because ALL religions are on the same basis.
Doctrine #1) Selfless(undefined) in your life at all times. It is unattainable by any human being, because it leads to selfishness.
Doctrine #2) Oppression of Desires(undefined) in your life. It is also unattainable by any human being, because scientifically it leads to insanity.
Doctrine #3) Belief in god(100% pure faith) in your life. It is also unattainable by any human being, because no human being on Earth can erase ALL doubt.
That simple conclusion results that the doctrine is false. Since, the doctrine is false, which is supposedly inspired by a god, then the hoax is revealed.
Amazing, isn't it?
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
These phrases are from a previous couple of generations of tradition. Their meanings have drifted in common understanding overtime.
Oswald chambers explained it better than I could ...
"To have a master and teacher is not the same thing as being mastered and taught. Having a master and teacher means that there is someone who knows me better than I know myself, who is closer than a friend, and who understands the remotest depths of my heart and is able to satisfy them fully. ... Full Article"
There are certain social constructs common 100 years ago that mean something different today i.e. "relationship of equals". These are explained by example in this article. If you listen for the tone and the intent, understanding that this was written about 100 years ago (Chambers died in 1917), you can see how he explains word usage of "Master and Lord".
Unfortunately, the "God in a Box" ... "Mc Church" society we as Christians often find ourselves in, often will just stamp out cookie cutter Christians who quote phrases like "Master and Lord" without understanding the depth of history behind the phrase.
There's plenty of blame to go around for that, which is pretty useless really, but the bottom line is, unless we explore these concepts for ourselves in depth we not only will not be able to explain it, when we try, it is simply more confusing.
people allow something they can not see, touch, or communicate with
This does not even closely describe my perceptions of and relationship with God.
However, without a common reference, I can't use words to describe that which someone else has not experienced. If I try to describe the color "red" to someone who has never seen anything, phrases like "warm" would be nonsense. The best you can ever get when explaining an unshared event is an analogy, which is inherently imperfect.
@BDazzler, And if a person has not experienced this dilemma that you speak of, they do not understand this either.
If you've never worshiped another person, then you have never been in love.
You are right, Cagsil, that not all forms of love involve worship. A mother's love for a helpless infant is more attachment than anything else.
But without worship, there is no romantic love. So if you've ever been in love, you know what it is to worship!
1. I think you don’t understand the meaning of the word “worship”; it is to acquire good attributes in one’s own self; the attributes or the good principles which we find reflecting in nature and the Universe.
Don’t you find anything good in and around you?
2. Are all things you observe around; you can “see, touch, or communicate”; surely not.
3. You can have free will; if you don’t harm anybody or you don’t harm yourself in physical, ethical, moral and spiritual realms; this is consistent with the belief in the Creator-God Allah YHWH; rather you would be a more useful human being.
This is all just too fascinating. I learn so much from you guys.
I don't believe in a soul, per se. I believe we are beings of energy and when our physical body dies, that energy goes back into the universe to be redistributed wherever it is needed, therefore, no need for heaven or hell.
You KNOW there is only so much of everything, right? So much water, so much earth, so much energy? So if our energy is not recycled (God is green?), then where does the energy for new life come from? Just doesn't make sense realistically that all that energy in our bodies just disappears.
From a strictly physical standpoint what you are referring to is the first law of thermodynamics, neither matter or energy can be created or destroyed. It can however change forms. Thus the universe is an ever changing matter/energy state.
Assuming that the soul is nothing more than the electo/chemical/mechanical energy used to power our consciousness, there is more than enough surplus energy in our solar system to drive the transformation of raw material (i.e. food/air/water) into consciousness.
The chemical, mechanical and electrical complexity of even the simplest organism, let alone the nervous system organization that allows intelligence is simply astounding. It is true that spouting theological words from 100 years ago does not come close to the awe I feel when I think of the self-renewing nature of creation.
I know people who have been to both heaven and hell, literally, and have presented me with convincing evidence ... consider it a different state of consciousness, if you will, with access to perceptions of certain dimensional realities not normally experienced in the material realm.
Yep…once a fundy gets really doped up on religion…confusion is just around the corner.
I know that it is written that we are to love God with our whole hearts and mind.
And to put no other God before him??
So where did the concept "worship" come from ?
I don't remember reading it in the bible!
Jerami, I do not think it is there either, the actual hebrew words do not mean the same, as modern churches teach it. Very different meanings and uses.
Like everything else... everyone has their own definition of what Worship means.
I don't think that God created us for the purpose of worshiping him 24-7. Unless by worship you mean LOVE and obey
He did not give us eyes that we see only him.
I think that we wants to stay within our peripheral vision while we are appreciating everything that he has given us to see.
He did not give us a mind that we only think of him.
And yet he doesn't want us to ever forget for one moment where our source lies, while we are on our expedition through life.
We are to experience LIFE. But when the day is over, he wants us to be near the correct doorway through which to exit.
It is more like when we take our children to the playground.
And tell them ... Go have fun and remember I'll be right here by the gate. The ONLY way out of here.
If you need me ... cry out DADDY and I will hear.
We do not see absolutely everything that they do, but we look over at them from time to time to make sure that they are OK.
And if we don't see them right away we call out to them hoping that they will answer.
And i they don't answer we go see why they didn't.
If you go to "EXODUS 20" the first three COMMANDMENTS deal with worshipping God.
Also Jesus tells us Thou shalt worship the Lord They God with all thy body,with all thy mind with all thy heart and with all thy spirit, and love thy neighbor as thyself. This is God's first commandment.
I'm not argueing against the faith in God,
I'm only questioning the word Worship.
What is the correct meaning of the word Worship?
What Hebrew word was this one translated from? And how many definitions could have been used implied for that word word?
The key to that question is found in the encounter with the woman at the well (John 4) ... the Samaritans and the Judeans had different worship traditions ...
Jesus told her the Father was looking for worshipers who would worship not in forms and rituals, but in spirit and in truth.
Whatever word is used, it's the spirit and truth of the heart, spirit and soul behind the action that the Father is looking at.
Yes I agree. Don't take our prayers and adoration to the streets corner where it is all for the show.
rituals and traditions are for show.
Well, yes and no ... I have often seen where this is true. But also where it was not. I think it's more complicated ... the church I attend uses contemporary music ... some people are truly worshiping ... others are enjoying a live band ...
The live band is now a form of ritual. Different than the organ music and choir of my youth, but still a ritual.
Any given ritual can be for show, or can truly help someone get into a mindset where they can focus on worship. Only God knows which.
You're right, if it's just for show it's wrong. But only God knows if it's just for show or not. I don't.
that is why it is so hard to explain. Everything seems at first glance to be an oxymoron.
Everything sems to be yea and ..yet not!
It's not true that only God knows. You know-- about yourself! We each of us know if we're faking it.
Used in that context it is possible.
If your wife agrees to it and your children. OK
I miss the good old days.
I have worked in the building trades for many years and have helped build more than a couple of churches.
When well over half of the church, built to worship God, is composed of basketball court, kitchen, rows of offices and all the paraphernalia to hold huge bingo events, I have to wonder just how much "worship" is done there, and just who is being worshipped?
People go to church, and claim to be religious, for many reasons. Worship is just one of them.
no I am not at all confused..urge to have faith on entity other than oneself is there in majority...it may be human or deity...but urge is there..i am fine with people worshipping but not fine when they declare that i am not going to be saved or going to heaven or hell...i dont believe in those concepts..if worshipping is more important than actions for god (if at all god is real) than i dont need that god...
Thats something I don't get. It's fine for you to believe anyway you want. I don't care, but why does it offend you if someone says they believe you will go to hell, if you don't believe in hell.
I mean if someone said I will go to someplace fictional when I die, if I don't believe it, then it wouldn't offend me.
I'd probably just laugh it off and say "Okay, whatever you say." And leave it at that.
Just wondering why does it offend you?
to be honest it doesnot offend me..i actually feel sorry for person who tell me so...instead of living life as human ,he/she limits his/her way of thinking ...viewing everything from paradigm of religion shields person from seeing beyond it...one cannot see that there are only 33% of one belief set , 24% of second and 16% of other set...but world is far more than that...yes i do get offended when people tell where gandhi would go!!!!!!!!!!!!!...that makes me wonder that worshipping a diety is important or actions are important..if god is real for sake of argument ..who would he rate higher...a person who prays daily or person who prays daily but acts to uplift people and person who doesnot care whether god exist or not but uplifts people...if i am god i would prefer 3rd and 2nd above 1st...religion is personal matter and should be confined to personal zone only...as far as i am concerned religion is man made thing..yes it did wonderful things to humans in directing evolution but it is not THE thing...
Okay thanks for clearing that up. Just the way it read in your previous post it seemed to be offend by it.
I however am a believer, notice I said believer, not religious.
I believe I should should believe, although all else says not to.
Perhaps I am wrong, but that is my own personal conviction.
What will happen to me when I die I do not know. As I am not perfect and I feel I fall short most of the time.
What will happen to others, when they die, I do not know. But I do feel there are those, who do not believe the same way I do, who are much better than me. As far as morals, values, philanthropy, etc.
So while I try to be good I am not. And at the same time there are those who are good not even trying.
I guess what I am saying while I feel that I probably in Gods eyes deserve to go to hell. I do not feel that someone who does not believe deserves to go to hell more than me. If that makes sense, if anything, their works speak more highly of them than mine do of me.
i got that and i thank you for your inputs...
as far as works go. People cannot earn their way into Gods good graces.
Zechariah 4:6 "Not by (human)might, nor by (human)power, but by my(Gods) spirit, says the LORD of hosts".
Ephesians 2:9 "Not of (human)works, lest any one should boast".
It does not matter what a person does, if God is not included in the work. Most religions are man trying to appease God, which is man trying to earn their way. But how can we earn something that was produced by the sacrifice of a son. We cannot. Ghandi, Buddha.. it doesn't matter who the person is nor how good their own works are they have to accept jesus under this new dispensation of Grace.
Only John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" matters.
We get into the things of God only by knowing what things God wants us to get into. The spirit of Jesus is forgiveness of past sins and by inviting jesus into our lives our lives become transformed and in tune with god.
There is no trance we can "get into" or channeling of spirits that will produce the effect that repentance of sin will accomplish and there is no doctrine that doesn't have jesus as the center of its core that will allow the father (God) to be known.
You say their works speak more highly than yours but i disagree. If you are born again and saved by the salvation process set forth in Gods word, the lest of your works is greater than any unsaved persons works.
It is all a gift of God and nobody will be able to boast how many wonderful things they did to obtain favor with God.
Luke 16:15 "And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knows your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God".
Luke 13:25 "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are":
well that is loss for religion and god not the human who act in benefit of entire human race..if god cannot respect that..who cares for such god...so be it...according to me gandhi , luther and such great personalities dont need religion or prophet or god ...their actions have been far more greater than all miracles of religion put together and if god or religion cannot respect that...well i wonder what then god would respect...
Are we saying that Gandhi and "Luther ?" didn't believe in God?
That they didn't believe that they were following Gods directions.
you have a point..yes they were doing what they believed was god's way and so were eliminated since their vision didnt fit many people...gandhi didnt believe in christ..he liked christ as person but never got convinced that christ is god..so i was talking in that context...
I have no problem at all! Since there are a huge amount of facts all around us and above us. Evolution would dictate the earth also be UN-inhabitable, but it is unique, because God created it for mankind.
It is a humbling experience to be able to accept the creations of God as creations of God, and so to a creator of such magnitude i am indeed awe inspired.
When I consider that we (all people) could have had a nowhere, no hope false, made up belief, that really only consists of and originates from individual points of vanity... I am indeed beyond grateful that life doesn't end for me here. So i thank God and all his power for considering me worthwhile and worthy to enter into all God has for me, both here and now.
He is worthy of praise (more so that any sports team) and to worship him instead of the dead things of this world, fills me with joy (not happiness which is fleeting and dependent upon favorable circumstance)
Indeed, the God of the bible has taken the temporary, unsatisfying and lustful things of this world and replaced them with permanent, satisfying and decent things that are of Him and by Him and through Him.
Its a much better life.
i have no problem acknowledging God as being far more powerful and amazing and wonderful than I am.
The concept of worship seems like the kind of thing only a man could have thought of. What possible value could a divine being derive from having a bunch of lowly and gross humans bowing and scraping to Him between fits of war and fornication?
Only a man, the vain, selfish, tiny-minded thing that we are, would expect that was the proper way to honor a God.
I expect the original message of some wise and civil philosopher king was more along the lines of, "Be DEVOTED to GOOD." But, in the moronic years that follow, people dropped an "O" out of that, and mis-translated it really bad over several thousand years, and we ended up with "worship God" rather than the original. From there we get all these folks parading about, big fat mouths open pronouncing the words of scripture from the steps of their monstrous churches while the original message lies shriveled and dying in some distant, hungry corner, long since ignored.
Wow. And all this time here I thought we were more than just random dots in the universe slated to disappear from existence when our bodies wear out. Sure burst my bubble!
I agree that we are just like random dots or just like a bubble which would perish just in the wind even without pricking of anything; we are mortals the created by the Creator-God Allah YHWH who is Immortal.
We are mortals, yes.
But our souls are immortal, and will live forever either in "hell" or heaven.
We are the result of creation by God (not Allah).
The fact that God Loves His creation (mankind) so much that He gave His Son Jesus to die for us, is the only reason we ARE more than just random dots. The Bible tells us that God knows everything about us, and cares about us, that we are "wonderfully made" and have a purpose in life.
I don't agree with you; it is a misconception or trick of Paul nothing to do with Jesus. It is an act of cruelty to kill one's son or daughter. Could you kill your son for the sins of man in the street.
You may disagree with me ; no compulsion.
No, I couldn't.
Which is why God provided the perfect Sacrifice FOR US.
God is God, after all. He created life. Who else has the ultimate right to give and take life? No one.
My friend, true worship is not something that can be forced from without. It is an inner compulsion. And it is not limited to a response to imaginary beings.
Remember that scene from Camelot, where Lancelot revives the fellow he just killed in a joust to the death arranged by Guinevere? Remember how she falls to her knees before him, when she realizes he is a far better person than she is?
That is worship. And men and women who are possessed of a conscience are capable of it.
I'd call that being humbled. We could have a semantic argument about definitions from here, so I'll just say that my intent is to say that obsequious rituals and servility in words or actions before an altar strike me as ridiculous. If one is humbled by the presence of overwhelming good in some moment of time, great. Take the spiritual energy from that and go to where it is useful and spread it around. I don't see anything good coming out of ritualized groveling, rolling about on mats or simulated cannibalism. To me that creates an illusion of participation in something rather than actual doing of good. It's selfish, creating the sense of being part of the thing rather than actually being the thing (the thing being a force of good).
Ritualized worship is like ritualized love -- mostly fake.
I agree with BDazzler on just about everything he said. It is all about our hearts. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees (who were the religious of his day). He called them hypocrites on many occasions saying one time..... This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
RELIGION is the doctrines of men. God hates religion and religious hypocrites. He is not looking for religious people who are pious but a people who have a relationship with HIM. And because they do, the grow from faith to faith and glory to glory and like Christ , they lay down their lives and pick up their cross and know that their life is not their own... the kingdom of God is in them. The kingdom of God comes not by observation, but is in them.
There is just so much... I just want to encourage those who have been hurt my churches or religions because God called us to be the church, church is not a building... it is a people of God going forth with the good news of God.
"... the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration."
"To adore... love and respect (someone) deeply."
"To revere... feel deep respect or admiration."
So, worship *does* have to do with love; however, what people have turned worship into is the real problem. To say one loves God, when one secretly despises and detests both oneself and others... or even detests what God has become, or was, or is - that's not worship then.
I think the real problem is the word 'God'. It is all sorts of filthy trash masquerading as something good.
On the one side this word means something which is insanely jealous, as petty as any of the worst of humanity might be, absolutely arrogant, insistent, threatening and damning. When anybody might have questioned its authority, the answer that would come back was, "I am God, I can do anything I wish." (Look at the answer to Job's questions). When asked about how 'He' tended to be unfair, cruel, insane, or despicable, the answer was, "Who knows the mind of God."
On the other side of this word it means absolute love, pure faith, hope beyond all hope, the ability to respond to both the needs of others and their feelings and desires. It says such things as, "Love believes all things... love does not want its own way".
So, the word God is an insanity. To say one agrees with both means one agrees with insanity. To agree with morality is to, either, disagree with God or dispel the evil God and only accept the kind one.
If God is really us, growing up through time, then it makes more sense. WE started out all jealous, cruel, nasty as sin... so yes, you might say religion began in original sin. It was originally sinful.
Now, just possibly, there is just the faintest tint of color in the dawn. I see a dawn coming... but I suspect the sun won't truly rise for another 1000 years. Sorry to tell you this.
The Moslem religion is there to show just how it used to be 2000 years ago. Yech! Yep, that's what Jesus was born into, and if Jesus acted like that back then - you can understand why.
Sorry to tell you, but the Jesus of the Gospels was insane. At one moment he was telling people not to curse, then he was cursing everything from fig trees to Pharisees. So, couldn't have been Jesus if Jesus were truly knowing what God knew.
Anyways, it's nice to see one website where people are, pretty-much, getting along; when Jesus said he had come, not to bring peace, but division; boy was he ever correct. From what I've seen in my life... religion is the real temptation one should avoid. It is the true drug one should be warned about.
But you are doing a fair job of not smashing in each other's faces in the name of love.
"I'm this," some oftentimes shout as if they know which side they're on... as if sides have anything to do with love. Love doesn't take sides; so if God is Love, then God would have to be more loving than the best person you've ever seen or heard of. If God is kindness (where does it say that?); but lets just say that love must have kindness in it, or it wouldn't be love... and empathy would have to have kindness in it or it wouldn't be empathy. And, forgiveness would certainly have to be kind, or else it wouldn't be authentic.
So, if God is the ultimate, and God is kind, then God would have to have no trace of anything that is not kind in Him.
The problem with people is, they have fear.
Fear - Ah. Fear. The ancients knew about fear because they wished to have their bread unleavened. What? Oh, but they understood bread much better than you do, if you don't understand what leaven does. Leaven, and by this I mean yeast, raises fear in the body. It muddles the mind. The ancients knew because they ate both kinds of bread.
They didn't mention that wheat, all by itself, can also spawn fear by feeding yeast. So, even the most holy of bread, Ezekiel Bread, was wrong. It raised fear in the body, Just what is this symbolic, "... leaven of the Pharisees?"
Possibly it was the spreading of fear and terror in the name of love. Recognize it yet?
This group does a good job at not doing that very much. I commend you.
Just a small wind, passing through with a thought.
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