Strictly Bible

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   mightyoneposted 14 years ago

   I'd like to know if anyone can show that we are going to Heaven?  There is only one catch - use the Bible to make your case!

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      mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Sorry if I misquote here-"If thy eye be single only then will you enter the knigdom of God"

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         mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         thy eye be single -means meditating on a point of light-one pointed concentration with your eyes closed-here Jesus talks about the inner or third eye.
         Anyone and all can attain salvation or go to heaven.

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            mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            wHERE do you get your weed from.  You know you're marijuana...you sound high.

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               Zarm Nefilinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               "You musta been so, high.  You must have been soooo high....."
               
               From:
               
               Tool-The Pot

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                  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  When you become one with God only then will you understand where I come from, till then it will be a fairy tale for you, a myth.

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                     Zarm Nefilinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Till you understand that I have indeed worshipped "God" before and have found solace and comfort in Him (even though He does not exist), you will keep talking straight out of a little hole in your rear end.

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                        mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        You need to be evolved to understand what I write,its clear you are not.

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               mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Being a poet I am on  a God-high, do you understand,I doubt it.
               Do you understand what I am writing or is it bouncing over your head.You talk about the Bible like aparrot ,first understand what it means before trying to become a preacher.

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                  mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  It is going bouncing over my head...I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers dude.  That's the harshes I 've heard you speak ever.

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                     mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I am explaining the meaning and you went to drugs ,why? I did feel offended-peace.
                     Let me put in in a more simple way.Close your eyes and you will see blackness -now as you start meditationg-relaxing-concentrating you will see only a point -this is what one must concentrate on- this is the meaning of  "thy eye be single" one pointed concentration.

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                        mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Okay, my bad for the offense.

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      sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Here is my case from the Bible.  I have used it to pleade the case that all people go to Heaven no matter what.  Only thing is, no one who reads or believes enough to find this possible, better yet, they would rather call God or Jesus a liar.  So here goes.
      
      From the Bible, "ask and you shall recieve."  You must believe that it is granted.
      
      So, I prayed for all people to be saved or to go to Heaven, and I know it is true because if God said that if you ask you will recieve than I got what  I wanted.  Everyone goes to Heaven. 
      
      Not good enough?  Hmmm...Plus revelations does not say only 144000 people will be saved, it says that 144000 will be chosen to be judges, these are the people from the 12 tribes of Isreal.  And I am one of them.  Want to know how I know?  Cause God told me so.
      
      Oh, wait only crazy people hear from God right?  Well whatever,  He told me I am from the tribe of Gad.  I don't make this stuff up.  Interestingly enough, Gad means "good wishes". 
      So go ahead, poke fun.  It doesn't matter much to me, it would not change my wish or prayer anyhow.  It just amplifies my understanding that most people including myself are incapable of being "good". 
      
      "Why do you call me good, no one is good but the Father."  Not even Jesus was good.  Excuse me, good as in good all the time or perfect.  No on is perfect.  Thus we do no know what we do.  We run around like idiots believing we have it all figured out. 
      
      Oh, and when I say that not even Jesus is perfect, I mean compared the God the one called Father, no one is perfect.  Plus God understands very well all things.
      
      Forgive anyone of thier sins and those shall be forgiven of your.  Retain any one of their sins and those shall not be forgiven of you.  So Jesus forgave us of our sins, all of them.  It cost him his life, but the life we live here is temperary.
      
      The clause to eternal life in this life doesn't exclude the possiblity of death, but pardons the second death which is to cease to exist and becoming forgotten by God.
      
      So make yourself know to God and God will make himself known to you. 
      All people already live in Heaven.  This Heaven on Earth and just so you know, everything done on Earth is done also in Heaven, so even if you went to Heaven right now,  it is not like it would be some magical wonderful place where all your wishes and dreams come true.
      
      We have to build a paridise on Earth and do those things considered good to even see the Heaven that was made for us right here.  Those things start with stopping the cycle of violence and injustice, but we all know how hard that is to do because we are all so different.
      
      So, you can forgive and forget, which is what God would do.  Forgive us of those things we do that God does not like and toss them in the fire to be burned and never thought of again.  Oh, yes,  people do not burn in Hell for eternity.  Bad thoughts or things burn in Hell forever and ever.
      
      Or like in Revelations.  Then the ones who are left took everything and burned it up.  Sorry no chapter number references,  just go read the entire chapter again.  It only takes about and hour. 
      
      It says only two things burn in the Lake of Fire, the great whore and  (darn I forgot) but the Lake of Fire is the second death.  We all, with the exception of one, two and possibley three people will see the first death.  That is death in this life.  Not even Jesus escaped the first death.  What does that tell you?

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         mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         This is pretty good; but we have to remember that Mary had a prophesy in Luke Chapter 1
         
         30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
         31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
         32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
         33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
         
         the Angel told Mary she'd have a son and to name him JESUS, He is the son of the HIGHEST (that's the Father) and the Father will give Him the throne of His father David (that's King David).  And He, speaking of JESUS, will reign over the house of Jacob (that's all 12 tribes, not just the Jews), FOREVER.
         
         So let's find David's throne - 1 Chronicles 29
         26Thus David the son of Jesse reigned over all Israel.
         27And the time that he reigned over Israel was forty years; seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.
         
         David reigned in Jerusalem and so will JESUS (not in Heaven, because this will be Heaven on earth)
         I'm in a groove right now, so let me show you something real quick...
         
         1 Thessalonians 4
         13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
         14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
         15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
         16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
         17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
         
         Paul is talking about the coming of the LORD - that the people which sleep or died, we shouldn’t feel too bad because of the hope of JESUS, He will raise them and bring them with Him when He RE-turns...and some who will be alive at His return will be changed (meaning some will escape the 1st date), and JESUS WILL BRING them with HIM too.  Now check this out...
         
         He will descend (come down) with a SHOUT and the dead in Christ will rise up and MEET the Lord in the air.  Meet, I leave my house and you leave your house and MEET somewhere.  And we will be with the Lord forever.   According to Paul that looks like Heaven; so I was confused too (as you might be); David's throne is not in HEAVEN...it was on the earth. 
         
         So I had to read Acts chapter 1
         
         8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
         9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
         10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
         11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
         
         You might remember this as Jesus was showing Himself to the people after He rose, and was taken up to heaven; the kicker is what the angels said to the people as they watched.
         Why gazes in heaven...JESUS which was taken up to heaven SHALL in like manner COME as you've seen Him go.  Uh oh, His feet were on the earth when He left the people, readers.  And where were they standing?
         
         12Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day's journey.
         On the Mount of Olives...keep this in mind.
         
         Turn to Zechariah 14 -
         
         This chapter talks about the RETURN of the LORD like Revelation does...
         Let's see what it says...
         
         1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
         2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.   3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
         4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east,
         
         Most bible readers have heard of Armageddon, this is it right here in Zechariah (yeah the old prophet had those visions first); but focus on verse 4, where HIS feet shall stand.  Isn't that were HE left?
         
         So Sandy, your beliefs are good; but in a world we live in you gotta give people something substantial to stand on.  You aren't from Gad either, it's a cute story that it means Good wishes, and ask and ye shall receive I believe that 100% - but I can ask to marry you, but if you're married or think I'm grossly ugly you'll say no and I won't receive you. 
         But I hope that this helps dismantle any thinking that anyone is going to heave, at most you'll meet the LORD in the air and come back down to the earth.
         
         Talk to me...
         
         
         

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            sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Whateva!  It is rather astonishing to knowthat people who claim to be followers of Christ or Godd always chose to turn a very good thing into something bad. 
            That is on you.  But because you demonstarted that you neither believe everything you read in the Bible, you also do not believe fully in God. 
            
            How can I say this?  Because if you belive that Gad, who was David's seer was made up and cute, or that not all prayers are recieved, then that is all you. 
            
            The world doesn't need anymore bologna about cautionary statements and disturbing interpretations of what is good, when no one is good. 
            
            You are not unlike most christains who take the Jesus' promise and use it to suite purposes that do not bring forth good fruit.  So,  I do not know what to tell you accept that, I wouldn't be so sure that the Bride automatically means the church or the saints. 
            
            If it were to be like that, then wouldn't it read: The Spirit and the Saints and the Church say Come! 
            
            But it doesn't does it?  No it doesn't.

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               mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               It doesn't say that; however in the previous chapter it states that the Lamb will wed the bride; and the book calls the bride the Chruch.  So reasoning would presume that people part of the bride (church) would want others to come into the church... I don't mean to ruffle feathers, (btw I believe in Gad, I just don't believe you're from the tribe Gad).
               
               I only want to share what I know and what the LORD has shown me through His scriptures.  It will offend people - Jesus offended many people, so bad they killed Him.  The message of love and positivity is good; but the reality is that in the Bible there is a way to cross GOD and get Him mad at you, like not keeping His commandments (and that's what the lake of fire is about).  If the lake of fire is love and positive, I'll stick with hate and negativity.  Sandy, you're great...

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   Inspirepubposted 14 years ago

   Only 144,000 people are going to Heaven (according to Revelations). Your chances of being one of them are fairly slim.

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      tkindredposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Can I buy my way onto the list?

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         Zarm Nefilinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Everyone's got a price, even Jesus.
         
         Falwell took 3 million dollars from Sun Myung Moon.

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         Inspirepubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Let's see ... pass me that camel ... now, where's the eye of your needle ...?
         
         Jenny

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      mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      My chances are real slim seeing no one is going to Heaven - the Lord is bringing the Kingdom here on the earth.  And still no one is using the Bible to show anything.  Shame on y'all.
      
      Rev 5
      9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
      
      10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
      
      I thought I'd lead by example.
      
      mighty

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   Inspirepubposted 14 years ago

   Revelation 7:4-8

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      mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      keep reading to verse
      
      9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
      
      10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

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   Inspirepubposted 14 years ago

   That's the throne on Earth, where Jesus is claiming His Kingdom ...

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      mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      but it says the 144,000 follow Jesus where ever He goes?  How would you explain that?

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         Inspirepubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         The King James version doesn't, and the New International version doesn't. Which version are you reading?

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            mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Very good point Jennny I have also not heard of such a figure.

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               mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               If this is mentioned for salvation then the person who wrote it and the person who believes it are both idiots.Every single human-thing is connected and come from God and will achieve salvation.

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            mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I read the KJ version; what version do you read; let me have it so I can read it.
            
            but it is in KJ version
            
            Revelation 14
            1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
            
            2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
            
            3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
            
            4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

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               Inspirepubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Ah, OK, gotcha. You're talking about a later verse.
               
               So, mightyone, this is where is says that only the 144,000 are redeemed from Earth and follow the Lamb wherever he goes - including to Heaven. Not the multitudes.
               
               The multitudes mentioned in verse 7 don't get redeemed from the earth. Jesus shepherds them right where they are - on Earth.
               
               Note, too, that the 144,000 are all virgins. Once you have sex, it's all over for getting into Heaven.

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                  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Well, that is me out then
                  
                  How about you worthless?

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                     topstuffposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     And also one whom you avoided...think

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                  mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Inspirepub; it is to be understood that NO ONE is going to Heaven.  There are 3 Heavens, the Earth is one, the sky & space elements is the second, and beyond that where the Father is with Jesus at His right hand is 3 according to the Bible. 
                  
                  Jesus will come to earth with the 144,000 and rule it for 1000 years, then after that with the 144,000, then the Father will come to earth with New Jerusalem.  So NO ONE is going to what is the 3rd Heaven.
                  
                  I won't touch that virgin stuff now...

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                     Inspirepubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Hey Mark, I think I have just discovered a whole new species of Christian cosmology!
                     
                     Look at this!
                     
                     NOBODY goes to Heaven. Bummer for all those Catholic schoolkids who did all those Novenas to get the black babies out of Purgatory and into Heaven, eh?
                     
                     
                     
                     Jenny

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                        Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        We seem to have a whole new species of discussion too. One I think I am best kept out of:
                        
                        SJ believes virginities grow back, the enlightened poet is attacking the one who thinks he is mightly,  worthless has come up with a whole new interpretation of the fairy tale which is better than everyone else's and I have discovered I am not going to heaven. Bummer

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                           mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           I have prayed or rquested you do have a spiritual experience, do let me know if it happens.

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                              mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              Everryone including you deserves heaven.

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                        mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        It's only new to your virgin ears.  Just remember since 70 AD we've gotten a watered down ROMAN Catholic christianity.  Like you can't find easter, SUNday (day of the sun worshippers and first day of the week) in the bible, xmas is pagan yet celebrated, so it new because the Jewish people who were suppose to teach the rest of the people didn't do their jobs.  So you are in left field, Mark doesn't believe nothing (and I don't blame him), and a bunch of other people don't have a clue what's going on, like with the E.U.
                        
                        I would be Mark's biggest fan had not the Bible existed.  Preachers preach using the bible; but do not - DO NOT teach nothing in it. So this would be utopia is a disaster on earth.  It's new alright...

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   Paragliderposted 14 years ago

   That's right - the 144,000 are all virgins. Male virgins, not 'defiled' with woman.
   Would anyone like to defend the (human, male) author of Revelation's blatant misogyny?
   
   Something I've noticed is that the book of Revelation seems to hold particular appeal for a certain type of Christian. Usually the type who is morbidly interested in punishing others.

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   SparklingJewelposted 14 years ago

   My studies have informed me that the 144,000 were just the beginning group of souls that came from "higher realms" to keep the earth from being totally destroyed by human "evil". Many more have come to do "God's" work since.
   Also, being a virgin is re-attainable ! Think about it, what does being a virgin mean? I put everything into the the language of energy. If the Source from which all Energy came is pure and created purity and pure souls, but free will actions brought impurity to souls, then all you have to do is "clean up" "clear out" your impurity/energy.
   Geez, guys and gals, isn't that what a spiritual (or even just a secular) life is best about? Clear up your karma and become a virgin again (let that flow of Energy flow purely once again)  
   I am truly not kidding !
   
   Even some Christians have acquired a concept of this...teaching their youth that have had sex outside of marriage, but regretted it and just prayed for forgiveness and changed their actions.
   
   Now though the energy stream may get purer, of course, I don't think in most cases the hymen can be re-grown, etc...but the energy can flow purer again, which is the main thing, right? Material reality is only temporary, it is the energy of soul that will go on eternally, if purified.

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   knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

   'My studies have informed me that the 144,000 were just the beginning group of souls that came from "higher realms" to keep the earth from being totally destroyed by human "evil".' And then there is the concept of the '12 Honest (always) Men'.
   So long is there are at least 12 honest men, God will not destroy the earth.

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   Inspirepubposted 14 years ago

   Cheer up Mark, Heaven is not much fun anyway. It's full of teetotallers and virgins.

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   sandra rinckposted 14 years ago

   P.S, in the second to last paragraph of Revelations, I belive.  It says, "and the holy Ghost and the Bride, said all who want to come to Heaven can." 
   
   So, if you want to go to Heaven, just ask. 

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      mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Chapter and verse Sandy...pleaseeee

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         sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Revelations 22:17 Both the Spirit and the Bride say Come! Anyone who hears should say Come! And the one who is thirsty should come.  Whoever desires should take the living water as a gift."

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            mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks for the reference; we have to find out who ever one is... the Spirit (Angel), bride (the saints or church) because the LAMB marries the Bride right?
            
            Anyone who hears the living water is this WORD, which is JESUS.  Should come to it and deal with it - not come to Heaven.  My other post should clear up the heaven thing.

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               sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Well believe what you want.  Heaven is open to anyone, I mean anyone who wants to come. 
               But I will let you go one speaking non sense and gibberish and denying peoples rights to Heaven.  I will let you continue to turn people from God because you make them feel they have no chance of going to Heaven. 
               I will let you continue to preach falsely to people seeking to hear the word, because I suddenly remembered who goes to the Lake of Fire.  The cowards, the unbelievers, the sexually immoral, the liars etc. 
               
               So fill yourself and the world up with things that push them away from God and I will know that All People go to Heaven or are blessed with eternal life and happiness, because the only ones who know this for sure are, God, Jesus and myself.

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                  mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  The strangest thing Sandy is that I quoted the bible, I read from the direct source everyone refers to when talking about Jesus... so how am I falsely teaching?
                  
                  Oh I know, it's because no one has ever read this book to you.  So it sounds foreign and evil.  All through the bible God's desire is to come to earth - the only one who wanted to go to Heaven was and is Satan; I can also read that.  But reading the bible is irrelevant - because I'm falsely teaching.
                  
                  And I thought you were one of the smarter ones that would understand that I'm not denying Heaven to anyone; I'm just giving the location (on the earth).

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                     SparklingJewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Interpretation of verse, especially Revelations, is subjective as with any spiritual knowledge. It is hard to know exactly what anyone is saying...only God knows for sure!
                     
                     To me, the verse Sandra quoted means: The Spirit is God (or God's highest representatives, Jesus, archangels and ascended souls that mediate The Word, for God, to humanity). The Bride is the wounded human soul ( that seperated itself out from God by being deceived etc ) becoming the Soul/One with God through the marriage with the Lamb, that is the Christ Mind that rose up out of the human mind of carnality. the living Word is the purified desire/emotions that have risen to purity through the raised up mind and soul ( marriage [of the Lamb and the Bride] that manifests in the heart where God resides).
                     
                     I think Sandra's point here is that because all that have sinned, sinned because they were deceived, so they deserve to "go to heaven". But I do have to say that each soul has to learn to believe that, and that it was not their fault, but they do have to take the responsibility for their actions (even if they were because of deception) and CHOOSE to learn. forgive and accept, to be One with God again.
                     
                     The way some people speak about sin and its consequences is usually the problem. When sin is spoken of as if it is a purposeful bad and malicious thing done on the part of a souls decisions (which is evil in my book), as if everyone is evil, then that turns people from God. When sin is talked about as if it was deception and a mistake in discernment and choice, but that there is always forgiveness, with the chance to try again to get it right, than that is ok.
                     
                     As far as heaven goes, I do believe that one definition of heaven can be on earth; in our state of consciousness, as I spoke of in my previous paragraph, for instance. What Jesus talked about, establishing the Kingdom on earth, I believe he was talking about the raising up of the human mind to Christ Mind, which he exampled. And when the soul is healed from her mistakes and unites with her own raised up mind as the Mind of Christ which he exampled as well (the marriage of the Lamb and the Bride) then that is when the Kingdom is on earth as it is in heaven, as above , so below.

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                        mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        "I believe" - "I think"
                        
                        What does anyone in these forums KNOW?
                        
                        Peter, an Apostle of JESUS walked with JESUS for 3.5 years and said the scriptures are of NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION.  It is there for all to understand.

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                           Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           I KNOW you are basing your "knowledge" on nothing more than hearsay. You never met Peter. Peter did not write his book. Hearsay. 200th hand, many times translated to suit the translator  hearsay at that. 
                           
                           That is what I KNOW.

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               mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Many saints have spoken as such- "I am the way" and each is correct in saying that .In one Hindu branch of Krishna -ISCON- they believe Krishna to be the highest entity and one must give himself up to Krishna to attatin salvation,the Muslims believe in Allah all other gods are false.
               I believe this stems more from the fact that there were many false preachers and it was said to differenciate between them.
               
               I was an athiest when I got enlightened ,I would laugh and mock god including Jesus,was asked to leave the Osho ashram twice for disturbing the harmony of the place, basically I was mocking them and telling them they were mad.I told a Christian friend of mine sorry for mocking Jesus a year back, I used to laugh at her for years.
               
               Bramha, Allah, Jevovah, Vishnu, Ahuramazda, Shiva...
               
               
               What’s in a name?
               
               A way to identify the same,
               
               Geography, language is mainly to blame.

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      mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Yes its depends on the self,one must reach the point of I have had enough-dont want anything more.

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    knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

    '"I believe" - "I think"' 
    I know I think.

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       mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Or do you think you know...You know a historian can say, I know Ronald Regan was a president of the US, AND he can open a book and prove it to anyone.
       
       He doesn't say, I believe, Ronald Regan was a president, I think he was a president of the US.
       
       Same with engineers, physics scholars, etc.  Only with religion everyone believes or thinks, or guess, or theorizes, or supposes.  Some things have to be concrete.

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          mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Mighty  one its been nagging me for a few days but do forgive me for being harsh earlier it was my mistake and I should should have elaborated on what I wrote in the first place.t

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             mightyoneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             No problem Mohitmisra; that was my fault; but when you reposted what you were saying it was clearer.  Thanks man.

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                mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Thanks -peace

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    Paragliderposted 14 years ago

    The knowledge/belief dichotomy is important. To believe is to accept as fact something that cannot be proven true. Each belief you hold closes off a little corner of the mind because it prevents further questions. There is no logical progression from belief to truth. Your believing something doesn't make it true. So what believers do is seek the company of, and affirmation from, other similar believers. But, the whole world could believe in the immaculate conception (they don't!) without making it true. It would remain a belief. Alternatively, the practice of meditation might psychologically reinforce a belief to the point where you are certain that your belief is knowledge, but sorry - it's not. You can't generate truth from nothing.
    
    Regarding knowledge, there's a lot of misunderstanding 'out there' on the status of scientific knowledge. Non-scientists often get hot under the collar at the idea that science claims to hold the truth. But that's a misunderstanding. Science claims no such thing (though some scientists might forget themselves and make rash claims - such is human nature). Scientific knowledge is "that which has been proposed, tested, and not yet proven false". Of course, it must be proposed in a testable (logically falsifiable) hypothesis.
    
    People are absolutely entitled to believe anything they want. But the refusal to accept that belief is irrational by definition has been, and continues to be, damaging to society, as it leads believers to impose their world view on others, through corrupt education, politics and official or unofficial violence.

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       SparklingJewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "...you can't generate truth from nothing."
       
       I know that truth is not always Truth. You guys and your concrete physical awareness is great, and has its place in consciousness. But it is not always Truth. Ultimate Truth is the abstract of belief and faith , and testable only individually, within. Sorry, nothing you can ever say will take that away from people. It serves its purpose, the existence of human spirit/soul is undeniable.

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          Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          But 'the abstract of belief and faith' is entirely personal, as is the appreciation of music. Human spirit/soul is a collective term for human feelings. We all have feelings. That doesn't prove the 'existence' of anything. In particular, it doesn't prove the continuity of anything after death, or the existence of anything before birth.

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             SparklingJewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Spirit/soul is more than just feeling...but yes, unprovable in your terms of science...so far. Its tangible enough for me.   I guess you have never given birth to a child That sense of the soul/spirit as it grows inside is undeniable...but only some feel it and sense it.

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    knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

    'not yet proven false' is a good model. So then would knowldege be what can be agreed upon, as proof through the senses, and belief where there can be no agreement based on sensory agreement, as we all see clouds, but can only believe in angels?

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       Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I think that's pretty astute. Let's be mundane for a sec. I am wearing a gold ring. I reckon it's OK to say I know that is true. (Thogh, strictly, I know I'm wearing a ring that I believe is gold). Someone beside me can say - he is wearing a ring that looks like gold. He can go home and tell his wife - he was wearing a ring that looked like gold. Or he can say - he was wearing a gold ring. Whatever he says, his wife cannot know it. She can only believe it (or not). She can tell her friend - Paraglider was wearing a ring that glowed in the dark. She can say anything she wants. It's all moved into the realm of belief. Or, as Mark would say, hearsay.

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    knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

    Some kind of extra-sensory, that might include extended future life. Take away the future. Not cool, at least if used to it.

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    Paragliderposted 14 years ago

    My contention is that you don't lose out on anything when you learn not to confuse belief with knowledge.In fact, you are likely to gain by keeping questions open where there is no reason to close them.

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       SparklingJewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Couldn't possibly understand exactly what you mean...but I do know that I am open to learning all that is new and different, and open to whether/where it fits in with my beliefs. Are you talking as if a belief is a stagnate or constant knowledge? I don't believe or think it is.
       
       The more we learn about others and their life, the more whole we can become if we accept and understand to the best degree possible where they are in their position...but that doesn't mean totally believe or accept it as our own belief; but that it can possibly change where we stand.
       
       Spirit is constant, but individual understanding of It  in others is a state that can always change  the understanding of It in our self.

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       sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       To play devils advocate, Paraglider....what actually constitutes knowledge?  Or would wisdome be a better choice of word.  I really liked your ring analogy, but I don't know if I could call it knowledge or hearsay or belief, just an observation stated in a way that is neither a lie or the truth. 
       
       I think, I believe...spoken like this no statement starting with that could be a lie.  Right?

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          Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I'm using knowledge to mean first hand experience, or something testable. More of this on my "Freedom from Belief" hub
          
          
          It could be a lie, but it couldn't be challenged. E.g. if I say - I believe I'm Napoleon, you don't know if I'm lying or just deluded. But I would know I was lying!

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             sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             LOL!

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