jump to last post 1-3 of 3 discussions (11 posts)

A Biblical story of Questionable Facts, just by date and time

  1. dutchman1951 profile image60
    dutchman1951posted 6 years ago

    Somewone please explain this to me:

    Explain David's graphic portrayal of Jesus' death by crucifixion (Psalm 22) 1000 years previous to crucifixion even being established as a form of capital punishment?
    and then written down some 150 years later?

    It is Suspicious at best as Crucifixion would not have been on any one's mind a thousand years before??????
    But yet 150 years after He lived, after the Romans invented it! It is then written down as profacy? Convient don't ya yhink?

    1. secularist10 profile image84
      secularist10posted 6 years agoin reply to this

      As far as I can tell, the only thing relating to a "graphic portrayal" of Jesus' crucifixion in Psalm 22 is "they pierced my hands and my feet" in verse 16. That's it. It doesn't explicitly mention a cross or the concept of crucifixion.

      First of all, "piercing hands and feet" can mean many things. Maybe the author had in mind minor flesh wounds, not a total "piercing." Or it might be metaphorical. The rest of this chapter, AND the rest of Psalm, AND the rest of the Bible, has a ton of metaphorical stuff. How do we know these particular seven words (NKJV) were intended to be literal, while most of the rest was intended to be metaphorical? Why not flip it around? Or better yet, why believe any of it?

      Second, scholars believe that to crucify someone you would have had to drive the nails through the wrists or forearms, not the hands. Driving the nails through the hands would not work because it would not support the weight of the body on the cross. Thus, assuming Jesus was crucified, this is not even an accurate description of his crucifixion! Thus technically there is, ironically, NOTHING in this chapter relating to the actual crucifixion.

      Third, with so many words in the Bible describing so many different scenes and different acts and personalities and lifestyles and beliefs and events, it is almost guaranteed that SOMETHING will resemble actual historical events at some point or another. It is simply the law of large numbers. The same could be said for any large work of literature, like "Crime and Punishment" for example. Yet nobody believes Dostoyevsky was a prophet of God (except my high school English teacher, of course).

      Fourth, this chapter contains a lot of extraneous information that nobody claims relates to the crucifixion, such as this: "Save Me from the lion’s mouth And from the horns of the wild oxen!" (Psalm 22: 21).

      Was there a lion and/or wild oxen at Jesus' crucifixion? Uh... no.

      Christians read into the text what they want to read.

      1. dutchman1951 profile image60
        dutchman1951posted 6 years agoin reply to this

        your not addressing what I asked, the interpretation of that text is the problem, it is taught as it describes parts of a crucifixtion 1000 years ahead of its time, when they had no concept of that for a punsihment. Daniel would not have known this at all. Even just the nails in Hands nd feet parts.

        now, we see it written some 150 years after the death, and after the fact. that The Romans made it a form of punishment,  so in the writings we now have, even though the writer does describe it,  the modern readers reflect it as Profacy..?

        it is very suspicious becuase of this. Suspicions that this part of the story could be man made, not all true? The facts do not equal the story passed around.

        that is the issue I am asking about. The factual History of the time, not The made up meanings of the man made words in the script, written some 150 years later.

        and I entertain nothing to do with Lions, Oxen, nothing but what were the historical facts of the time.

        and yes, Christians read all of this into it, (OX, Lamb- what ever) when they should be concerened with facts. Not obscure meanings, or hidden meanings not there of the words. I agree with you.

        and I submit this example is one of so many,  as to how we get far away from the real words..?

        1. secularist10 profile image84
          secularist10posted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Read what I wrote. I specifically said the Psalm does not say anything about a crucifixion. He did not write "nails" in the hands and feet, he wrote "pierce" which can mean many things, as I said.

          And again, I reiterate, an actual crucifixion would not have nails driven through the hands, because it would not support the weight of the body. The nails would go through the wrists or forearms.

          There was nothing written about the crucifixion 1000 years beforehand.

    2. heavenbound5511 profile image78
      heavenbound5511posted 6 years agoin reply to this

      In June of 1968, bulldozers working north of Jerusalem accidentally laid bare tombs dating from the first century B.C. and the first century A.D. Greek archeologist Vasilius Tzaferis was instructed by the Israeli Department of Antiquities to carefully excavate these tombs. Subsequently one of the most exciting finds of recent times was unearthed - the first skeletal remains of a crucified man. The most significant factor is its dating to around the time of Christ. The skeleton was of a man named Yehohanan son of Chaggol, who had been crucified between the age of 24 and 28. Mr. Tzaferis wrote an article in the Jan/Feb. 1985 issue of the secular magazine Biblical Archaeology Review (BAR), and here are some of his comments regarding crucifixion in Jesus' time:

      At the end of the first century B.C., the Romans adopted crucifixion as an official punishment for non-Romans for certain limited transgressions. Initially, it was employed not as a method of execution, but only as a punishment. Moreover, only slaves convicted of certain crimes were punished by crucifixion. During this early period, a wooden beam, known as a furca or patibulum was placed on the slave's neck and bound to his arms.

      http://www.bible.ca/d-history-archeolog … -cross.htm

  2. earnestshub profile image86
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    Ya gotta love the bible and quoran when it comes to belief. You can make either of them say whatever you like pretty much.

    There is a contradiction or a way out of every position simply because of the numbers as possibilities previously stated.

    Best always to look at the psychology of the statements attributed to the god to see what is really going on.

    No matter who it was speaking to or when in history, psychotic behaviour and words tell their own tale, and it is one of hate fear and loathing, hardly godly traits, more akin to a psychotic depot. smile

    1. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I agree, it really does turn very psychotic?

      thats what amased me about the teaching of that Psalm. back when those folks exhisted, we were far far to basic to come up with all of that crapola, they were hunter gatherer types, fighting for exhistance.  The sophistication of a God and a Gods action came much later after man evolved more.

      you can sit back and see the psychology of control being used to the n-th degree in it, all man made. man watching man develope and deviately thinking how to gain power; to scare and control him.

      If you just think clearly, No Omniscent being would ever need of that.

  3. earnestshub profile image86
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    Exactly right! omni stupid is about where it sat then and astonishingly....... now for many! lol

    1. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 6 years agoin reply to this

      we really are backing up are we not....lol
      Was not thinking like that, but yep, we are

      1. dutchman1951 profile image60
        dutchman1951posted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I hope some will answer here in a conversation and realise quoting scripture, and the personal interpretation of it is the crux of the problem

        1. heavenbound5511 profile image78
          heavenbound5511posted 6 years agoin reply to this

          No the problem is that people do not want to honor God. They do not want to know God- so therefore they do not know God.
          They do not want to understand the word of God- they just want to argue about it.
          Where strife and envy are there is every evil work.
          God has called all people to come and be saved by accepting Jesus and those that answer when He calls are the chosen that chose to trust, honor, and obey God. God can only use willing people- if people would humble thereselves and approach God in the right way God would do mighty things in there lives.