Less than two weeks ago, the atheist convention held in Melbourne had both Christian and Muslim protesters wielding signs and chanting their hatred.
Here are some examples of the signs Muslims held...
"Message to Infidel - Burn in Hell Forever"
"Atheism a Humiliation of Reason - Islam is the only Solution"
"Christopher Hitchens Final Destination ---> Hellfire"
"Atheism is the Cancer - Islam is the Answer"
"Atheism is Hellfire - Islam is Paradise"
Muslims there went on to chant "Burn in Hell - Burn in Hell"
Atheists chanted back at them... "Where are the Women" - Where are the Women"
What's VERY interesting about the Muslim protesters is that if anyone else did the same thing at an Islamic event, Muslims would be rioting in the streets, lobbying for being denied their religious freedoms and most likely someone would be seriously injured or killed.
Peaceful religion, indeed.
Videos of these events are available for viewing.
It's sad really. I notice that it's ok for Christians and Muslims of all types to go where they want, and do what they wish. We are not allowed to do anything back to them, otherwise it's religious persecution. It's also religious persecution when you turn the tables on them.
I really don't understand why it is that way. Why can Christians and Muslims go around and attack anyone they wish and blame religious persecution if someone strikes back? Why is it religious persecution when the same thing is done to them?
So, just to clarify:
Atheists had an international convention like say, Lakewood Church, every Sunday (with about 10k + attendees), right? And there were people outside protesting, like strikebreakers or pro-lifers, right? No one was hurt, shot, stabbed, radiated -just the usual name calling, right?
Well, seems that the shoe is now on the other foot, Now isn't it. How convenient when it is the atheist handing out the condescending contradiction and bigotry but when the Establishment growls back, they sob and seek comfort. Pity, really. No really, pity is in order, I suppose.
But, yes, yes, I know, you are working tirelessly, laboriously, voluntarily, without a drop of cooperation (submission), consideration or relief -not even an ounce of kindness or respect from those heathen theists, never mind the rest- to free the world of monotheistic doctrine, as to replace it with your own vile attempt at a doctrine.
Was it not one of your largest campaigners, fundraisers, made the oops a few years back about the whole New Templar, Illuminati thing emerging -finally- from the shadows to become the "summus domme religio" ???
Well, I think then the only logical reason for upset was a considerable amount of lost donations aka tithes to the atheist church, err, organization -which isn't supposed to be organized by its own admission ( lol ).
So, let me ask you this, dear atheist, how does it feel to be just like everybody else? A few steps down the pompous ladder tends to do the trick every time. But, I know that gives you that much more motivation -like your theistic predecessors, whom you studied and now mimic- to become that Romanesque State.
Yeats & Keating! Got to go, my Earl Grey is getting cold.
While understanding that you have the right to say what you want, why give such a hate filled speech?
Christians constantly go around protesting against everyone they feel deserves it. From atheists to gay people, Christians protest against them all. You come into hubpages forums marked for Atheists and continue to slander and hate. I've seen you go to other distinctly pagan forums and continue the hate there as well. All you seem to be doing is being self-righteous, was does nothing to help your cause what so ever.
To further my point, where you might here from atheists, I've never seen an all atheist protestation against anything.
Now since you don't seem to understand what a convention is, it's not a rally like westboro baptist holds before they go marching off to protest, nor is it a church like on Sundays. Conventions are generally held once a year for a great many reasons. You have this Atheist convention, you have a gamers convention, your have business conventions, and many other things. Apparently though, you seem to lack some serious comprehension.
Hate? You see hate in my words. Dear me now I know your religion causes -or shall cause just as many conflicts, as the others.
Pity, you had such "protestantial potential".
My words are bittersweet, yes, lined with sarcasm and truth. Not hate. More like how a person laughs when watching a predictable spoof movie of Zombie Scream, etc.
Out of all that, the only thing that got your focus was the word convention?
Anti-god sakes! How indoctrinated are you into this new religion called atheism? Or is it the League Asus Final Fantasy Twelve Borg Subtitled Neo Minded Generation Z Gamers Deluxe? /am teasing, don't get ruffled, man.
Technically, convention, convene, convent, converge all denote the gathering of like minded persons (or events, extremes) for the purpose of celebrating said like minded beliefs, in one unity/accordance. That is also the definition of 'church'. Not the building itself, but the 'organization' or 'fellowship' of the individuals who frequent the building.
I mean, yeah, it sucks "ya`ll" don't have the flood of cash flow churches do to hold your conventions weekly. But, you'll get there as they did. Chin up!
And, not-for-nothing, why is it always and I do mean always, that atheists specifically name Christianity as their archenemy? I find that intriguing, actually.
There was no name calling, it was pure religious hatred being spewed by Islamic fundies.
Since you were entirely wrong from the get go, the rest of your post is pointless.
The Islamic faith is full of hate, their propensity toward violence is disgusting. I'd have to say that all people are capable of devolving in such a way.
Humans behave that way because religions teach them to behave that way.
No, humans behave that way because they are humans.
It's a mixture of both. Humans have the capabilities of doing it, but the religions can perpetuate the occurrences and influence how it's done.
I agree. But anything can perpetuate the same type of behavior, politics, race, nationality etc.
And, now you contradict yourself. Well done.
Yes, other institutions can influence protests, but religion has a history of perpetuating inequality, bigotry and even violence. It appears that having double standards or being hypocritical is a favored tactic, too.
That being said; and, while I can't speak for Australia, if it was in America, they are completely within their legal right to protest as long as it doesn't get violent.
Though as I said, it's not ok to counter protest. Technically speaking, every protest Westboro Baptist has had, was disturbing the peace, but because it was under the heading of "religion" nothing could be done to stop it.
However, If you were try to go to their church and protest against them, you would be locked up for Disturbing the Peace unless you have "religious" clearance for your protest.
The system is retarded and backwards, even here in America.
Please don't be so dishonest in light of the obvious evidence to the contrary.
There's evidence to the contrary of idiocy being a universal, nay, definitional human quality?
And here I thought we religious we're supposed to be the overoptimistic ones.
I agreed that religion can perpetuate the behavioir, not cause it.
Of course, religions are causing that despicable behavior.
"Faith inspires violence in at least two ways. First, people often kill other human beings because they believe that the creator of the universe wants them to do it... Second, far greater numbers of people fall into conflict with one another because they define their moral community on the basis of their religious affiliation." - Sam Harris
* In 1605 English Catholics attempted to assassinate King James I.
* The KKK are a Christian group who kill or act violent in god's name so they can "reestablish Protestant Christian values in America by any means possible."
* The "Army of God," violently attacks abortion clinics and doctors, including killing them.
* Also, don't forget the 2 Muslim sects that are constantly at odds with each other, the Sunnis and the Shiites.
* Another example -- Hitler thought of himself as a Christian and a savior of sorts that had to eradicate the Jews and others who were different.
Are those enough examples of religion perpetuating negative behavior?
Perpetuation is not cause. And i asked for proof, not examples.
Since those examples are recorded historical events, that makes them not proof?
No, they are examples. They dont prove that religion was the cause of the behavior.
When violence is carried out because of the influence of religious beliefs and/or in the name of the god they believe in -- religion plays a key role in the cause of the behavior.
Historical and factual evidence isn't my opinion. If anything, since those groups state they are doing it for god/religious beliefs, I inferred that what they said is what they believe. I don't think that is a huge stretch...
As A Troubled Man already stated, "Please don't be so dishonest in light of the obvious evidence to the contrary."
I hope you don't mind me repeating that.
There are plenty of studies that prove humans are naturally violent.
I will find some links for you to read.
Maybe you can find some studies that will prove that religion causes violence. I doubt you can, but l will look at them with an open mind.
How one can believe that Nationality, Politics, and the like play a part in human violence and not understand how religion can, is truly mind boggling.
Plays a part and causes aren't the same thing. She asked for evidence that religion causes violence. I doubt anyone could argue that religion doesn't contribute to violence in the world today.
But it does cause it. Westboro Baptist is just a step away from committing hate crimes because of the religious beliefs concerning gays and the like. The 9/11 attacks happened not because these people actually had a beef with the US, but because they believed that blowing themselves up would give them 72 virgins when they got to heaven afterwards. All bombings in Afghanistan happened for the same reason. A belief is something people are willing to die for, which is what makes them so hard to change, and makes them a really bad idea to have.
You mentioned something that I find perplexing in your statement. It's a little off topic so forgive me but...
I find it strange that some muslims think that they will get 72 virgins in the after life.
What good would 72 virgins do in a spiritual world without body?
What in hell did these poor 72 virgins do wrong to be paired with the likes one suicide boomer for eternity?
I think my primary problem with the argument that religion causes violence is that it doesn't factor in personal responsibility. You make excuses for behavior patterns. The religious can then simply say it's what God wants and we are just persecuting them. So, the cycle continues.
Sometimes I wonder if we wouldn't be money ahead to work, instead, within religion to help them understand that no God could possibly want that.
But, you might as well throw the Westboro inbreds out of your argument. From my understanding, that is simply one family being led by an insane patriarch. I'm surprised the Baptists haven't sued them to stop using the same name.
Westboro is far beyond one family, and the family is actually split. One of their kids stands completely against them that I know of. The reason I use them though is because they've had a lot of news surrounding them that supports the point I was trying to make.
Where as I understand what your saying and where your coming from, you have to think of it from a more primal point of view. No one ever wants to do anything for nothing. This is people from all walks of life, not just one or the other. The tendency for violence is there, in every person. The CAUSE of that violence coming out though, changes things.
Why risk your life for something, if it's going to mean nothing? Humans as a species are violent, and we go to war yes. However, no one fights long for something they don't believe in. To further that, almost no one ever risks their life if it isn't for a cause they don't believe in. If you believe God is going to bring you to heaven and give you 72 virgins for blowing yourself up and maybe taking out a few enemies, then your likely to go find the biggest way to blow yourself up and take out as many people as possible. It's the same with anything else. During the Crusades the Christians and the Knights Templar believed they were doing Gods work by Massacring anyone not Christian and trying to gain the holy land. They even preached that to kill and infidel was not murder but the way to heaven.
I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across here but I feel like I'm rambling so I'll stop for now lol.
So far, you have only provided mind boggling denial and dishonesty.
janesix: No one stated that religion is the only cause of violence/bad behavior. But the article is about a religious group and their bad behavior and that led to the discussion that religions can cause bad behavior. You asked for proof that this can happen, and aside from the article, I gave you some decent examples.
I am sure you can find examples of violence or bad behavior that had nothing to do with religion.
I can only speak for myself when I say I've never been naturally violent. At no point have I ever felt like striking someone or causing harm to another person and I did that without religion or religious views.
Religion may not solely be responsible for making people violent, but its one institution that can bring that out and cause people to act a certain way that they might nor normally, or it wouldn't even cross their minds without that influence.
These acts were done in the name of god or because of the religious beliefs held.
violence occurs when (and only when) an individual believes that what they want is more important than the well-being of another individual.
Religion is just the excuse (as is politics, nationalism, simple greed etc).
Any time someone is taught (via ANY doctrine) that they should be prepared to kill for what they believe in and they have a right to do so, violence becomes more possible, more likely.
Regardless of the good those of faith practice or cause, ANY time a doctrine says I can hurt or destroy another it is a detriment to society.
I'm with the atheists on that point.
So you seriously think that if those people had not been religious they would have been being hateful outside that building? Seems like self proof to me.
Er, you said right in your OP that the convention-goers heckled the hecklers right back.
Their inherent superiority did not keep them from stooping to the same level as their detractors.
Poo was flung both ways, ook ook.
You are correct, but the difference is that the atheists didn't protest first, they reacted to being called horrible names. If they weren't being insulted, they would have no reason to say anything back.
Not saying it's right or wrong, but I feel I can safely assume that the atheists would not have gone out of their way to protest the theists.
Oh, I see, you believe the hatred the Muslims were chanting was equivalent to what the atheists were chanting?
I would never condone actions like that, nor would I take (legal) issue with a similarly-minded counter-protest, though I would consider it equally stupid and pointless as what these people are doing.
So, the heckled heckled the hecklers. Great come back by the atheists. I agree that it is sad everyone is so frightened of the radical Islamists that they are allowed to perpetuate hate speech in the name of their religion.
And, if any Christians referenced hell in their protest that is hate speech, too. I hope, in all else, the gathering was successful.
@ts its ok...days of stopping such conventions are over...and another 500 yrs down the line ...people would wonder how such religious believes like heaven,hell,saviour,prophet even existed...
Life in faith and by faith... leave others alone. If you don't come in love to rally, just leave it alone...any time hatred comes out, we lose.
Wow. It's so nice living in a social democracy! Ever since Adolph Hitler invaded the Middle East and murdered all of those Arabs in his plan to take over the world and turn it all blond and blue-eyed, Northern Europeans have been in decline because they're a bunch of racists. Islam has every right to grow and prosper in Australia because of Australia's dark Nazi history. Japan is currently a first world country with a severely declining population and there are no Muslims there because the Japanese have no racist past: All of the things the Japanese did to the Ainu and the Koreans was probably made up by blonds.
Well hmm...very interesting, not very nice! If everyone just quit trying to interfere in each others worlds we'd be alright I think! But of course when we think we need to change other people and our way is the only way than that stars hatred and wars. Well Sorry to see all this hatred!
Good lord, my button wasn't working! So didn't mean to post that many times!
There is a delete option to clean some of them up
If you click "more-->" under your post, it shows a delete option, if it's not too late.
In chronological view it's beside the reply button.
You make an interesting point, but when all is said and done and if people get in trouble with the law -- then they are personally responsible. The claims that they did it in the name of god or their beliefs are still there and most likely still the reason they acted out. It doesn't excuse their personal responsibility, but in cases like this, the beliefs shaped their actions.
If they didn't have that influence, would they still have acted that way? I guess that is debatable, but my opinion is that if they were raised different and not indoctrinated into religion, or a religious group that promotes that kind of behavior, then it most likely would not have occurred. The best evidence I can think of are the fact that most atheists and agnostics don't protest religious groups or do anything beyond protesting -- at least in my experience.
Is there a double standard though? I've seen plenty of angry non-religious picketers with horrible, hateful signs at harmless religious gatherings-- and the members of those religious gatherings have never picketed anyone before in their life!
I have never heard of such a thing. What angry non-religious picketers and what harmless religious gatherings do you refer, exactly?
Well you know we got to love you Trouble! Just came to say hi!
A wedding-- weddings at the Mormon temple in SLC are routinely picketed. I have personally witnessed innocent brides coming out with their new husbands, and get subjected to taunts and signs from non religious people. And for what? All they're doing is getting married and trying to enjoy one of the happiest days of their lives, and they can't even take wedding pictures with their loved ones because they have people jeering at them.
And you have personally went up to each and every one of these people that are doing the jeering and asserting their Atheists? Your 100% positive that they are not simply of a different religion or set of beliefs?
As for a double standard, well honestly, Atheism doesn't have a precept telling them not to do something. Christians on the other hand are told by their leader, Jesus, to turn the other Cheek. Or is it that Christian precepts only apply when it feels good and the rest of the time your free to do whatever?
A lot of them were holding signs starting with "God's not real- you're idiots" and similar things.
So then it's possible that they hold a different religious outlook or belief system and are not necessarily atheists. You just find it convenient to blame atheists then look to other possibilities.
It's possible, but certainly not likely. Atheists have their bad, as do Christians, as do every other group there is. I have considered other possibilities, but having been there, witnessed it, seen many of the people-- even talked to a few and received some of their fliers.... it's most likely that there were atheists in the crowd. Especially when several of the fliers directed me to atheist websites.
Atheists in the crowd doesn't make them all atheists though. Nor does it make an "Atheist" protestation. You've asserted yourself that you couldn't vouch for each and every person. I personally don't believe in the Christian God, and I would make a sign telling people it's false if I was doing a religious protestation. I'm not an Atheist though. So to me, what your trying to imply isn't holding any water. You've turned a couple into an entire group without verifying the entire group was the same exact way.
Einder, I doubt anyone did an 'each and everyone' check at the atheist convention either. Muslims in the crowd don't represent all muslims either. Even if every protestor in any crowd all professed to be the same and think the same, it is hardly indicative of an entire world religion.
I understand that, but there were many Muslims there, so that they could say that there was a Muslim group. Just as there were enough Christians there to say there was a Christian group. There could've been many other groups as well, but they as of yet, have not been identified.
That's very unfortunate, I'm aghast at such a display. Did it make any headlines, like these headlines, for example...
"The protest was response to remarks by Boyd K. Packer, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, on Oct. 3 during a sermon against same-sex marriage and pornography.
Packer said that the LDS Church would always oppose same-sex marriage, that gays and lesbians could change their sexual orientation to straight, and compared homosexuality to “a habit or addiction that is unworthy,” calling same-sex attraction “impure and unnatural.”
The ill-timed remarks come on the heels of the suicides of at least six teenagers over the past month, all victims of anti-gay bullying or harassment.
http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2010/10/thou … y-remarks/
"Protesters marched around the headquarters of the Mormon church Friday night, criticizing the church’s support for a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage in California.
“Separate church and state,” the crowd chanted as it marched, some waving rainbow flags or carrying signs with messages like “Mormons: Once persecuted, now persecutors.”
this is kind of difficult to disregard the brainwashing demand ob submission put on women to get "married". In any system where one group 's rights are ignored, disrespected, other people try to make a statement that if one of them dares she will speak up for herself... the way we say poor innocent bride and not poor innocent couple or men proves says a lot about the condition of the woman looking like a lamb being sacrificed to the pleasure and desires of men, for so called God's purpose. I respect anybody who respects every individuals rights and women or girls are individuals. sorry
Mormons don't respect women and demand they get married? Not quite-- Yes, a heavy emphasis is placed on marriage, but we certainly don't cast out unmarried women or blame them in any respect. Women are just as encouraged to get an education as men and a career and be self sufficient, otherwise I wouldn't be planning on going to law school.
Yes Shanna, that's exactly what homosexuals wish to do, too, but your church leaders don't see it that way as they go out of their way to make it impossible for that to occur.
Do you see the hypocrisy and contradiction in your words?
Your words are full of hate, as you yourself seem to be. You come to an Atheist forum for nothing more than causing problems. You do so purposefully. That's the first sign of hate in and of itself. Then you set about doing nothing but slandering atheists with no evidence what so ever of anything. You pull words far from their meanings in an attempt to convey your point, which is hateful in and of itself.
Don't pity me, I really don't need it. I pity you and all your ignorance. Ignorance is the gateway to being used by others, like you obviously are being used through Indoctrination.
As for your predictable zombie movie, I knew that at least one Christian would show up on this topic with something to say. Your lot is nothing if not completely predictable.
It all got my attention. However, your misconstruing the word convention to serve your personal needs, needed it's attention directed to having an actual understanding of the word, instead of your wishful thinking and flights of fancy.
As for being "indoctrinated" there is no indoctrination to Atheism. It's not something I expect the simple minded to understand though. Oh, and I'm not an Atheist either. I have a belief system, but mine doesn't deal with saying something that is not fact is actually fact without any evidence of it what so ever.
To address your technicality, it again shows your flights of fancy on a word that you have no comprehension of. The word convention is defined as:
1.) A way in which something is usually done, esp. within a particular area or activity.
2.) Behavior that is considered acceptable or polite to most members of a society.
None of your terms really have any relevance to the word what so ever and just belies your lack of comprehension.
As for Atheists having a lack of cash flow, well to be honest, they don't usually steal from the poor to line their own pockets. Instead they work and pay bills and spend their extra money however they see fit. Of course, people with a complete lack of understanding can't possibly comprehend that either.
You really want to know why Christianity is the Archnemisis of Atheism? It's because Christians indoctrinate their young, repeatedly tell their young that the bible is 100% fact without it ever having been established that it is, and they tend to lash out at people around them continuously with complete disregard. They also work at trying to convince others that their esoteric book is an exoteric one on a constant basis. There are also several other reasons I'm sure, but these are one's that I know of which are consistent amongst them all.
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