The Non-Meaning of Existence

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   A.Villarasaposted 11 years ago

   Some scientists, with astro-physicists leading the charge, have gone out on a limb  to say flatly  that the formation of the Universe had nothing to do with God(or any such Supernatural Being), but  with the simplest  mechanics of quantum physics involving sub-atomic particles i.e photons, electron, neutrons (and their elemental structure called quarks)  interacting  in some ways to produce what we now perceive as the cosmic world that we now inhabit. If as they aver,  an M theory (unified Theory)  could explain everything that  happens in the Universe, with that theory basically infering that the Universe was not any grand design by an intelligent entity. If so, what that does mean for our existence, except that we are just  a happenstance formation of Hydrogen/Carbon/Nitrogen that happened  to evolve into a volitional, sentient, creative,  beings whose existence may not mean much.

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      Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Nothing else.  That's pretty much it.

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         A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Then why are you smiling? Seems to me that one should be morose after being told that life is as empty as a tin can.

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            Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Actually quite the opposite.  I'd rather decide my own "purpose" than have one dictated to me.

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               A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Of Course, being human,  you  have the cerebral capacity to design your own utility, irregardless of  what learned men of science (your fellow humans I might add)  say, i.e that there was no grand design or purpose for the big bang, and every event that followed  thereafter down to the creation of life on earth.
               
               Which lead me to a rhetorical question. If  the formation and evolution of life on earth (or any other planets out there that might be located in what scientist call the Goldilock zone of   a solar system much like ours) was just a random event, albeit a lucky  one, why even produce a specie (Homo Sapiens) that  evolved with the brain that  has allowed  it  to ask the when and the how, but most importantly the why of his existence?

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                  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  LOL
                  
                  Your question is meaningless. There is no reason. You think your question has some importance outside your own mind?
                  
                  How arrogant.

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                     A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     And I suppose that is the reason why you exist..because from your perspective your life is as meaningless as the air that emanates from your posterior.

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                  Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Why must there be a why?

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                     Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Because Ron, all questions do have answers.

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                        Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Because everything happens for a reason?

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                           Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           That's one way you could look at it. I prefer to look at as, a question asked must have an answer. If you can ask a question regardless of how (in)sane the question, it can be answered, accepting the answer is another story.

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                              A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              Did you just suggest that humans asking why they exist is an insane question?

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                                 Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 Nope. And only your skewed perception would think that.
                                 
                                 I did say that all questions, regardless of whether or not said questions are insane or not, have answers.

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            DoubleScorpionposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Life isn't empty, unless you live it that way.
            
            Only death is empty...well not really empty, just the end.

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               A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               When and if you live a "life that is full", and death ends it, is there somehow, something to look forward to?... you know a  kind of  light after you crossed the bar.  A very wise man, Lord Alfred Tennyson, seemed to think so.

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      paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I likewise think that we are even less than trivial in the grand scheme of things. Sure, from our perspective, we are important. But as relates to the universe, our importance is ranked right up there with bacteria.

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         eternals3ptemberposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Yeah but when we're gone, bacteria will live on... So maybe even less xD

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         A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I am now hearing a lot of halleluiahs from my petri dished bacterium friends after they read your post.

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      Living Well Nowposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Why ask why?
      
      Purpose inheres in the mind. Your existence doesn't require anything more than having parents. Your existence has nothing to do with meaning. Meaning is something you give to your existence, not the other way around. You were brought into existence by two intelligent entities. Isn't that enough? Why add a third, or a fourth, or a fifth, or ...

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         A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Humans have the temerity and the perspicacity to continually and persistently ask  not only the when and how  and most importantly the why of things.

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      kessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      This present existence operates in this way...
      Death unto death, Life unto Life. Or
      Ignorance unto ingnorance, knowing unto knowing.
      
      So therefore it is no surprise that many will only accept that the ignorance of death is the ultimate initiatiating cause of  their existence.
      
      They are death and will their lives will be the fulfilment of their  father Death. So their sense of purpose for living will never transcend the grave.
      
      Those of life will know that Life which is knowledge is the initiating cause of their existence...this existence they also know, was already present at the moment of initiation of this present existence and would remain even the curtains are drawn on it.

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         Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         

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            A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            A very skeptical canine.... priceless.

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               Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               He is puzzled by Kess's post.

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                  eternals3ptemberposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Or he's wondering where the ball went:
                  
                  *pretend to throw the ball*

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      soumyasrajanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      There is another piece of statistics which might interest you in this context. That also does not have any controversy about creationism or evolution etc.
      
      I am not trying to make any statement against, God playing role in any of this - at least  as far as I know  in science one generally does not study  such questions which you are sort of wondering about -- "God  or some supernatural being has some thing to do with creation of universe or not"
      
      Simply because as far as I know,   currently used tools in science are enough to study such question - for example in Physics time being one tries to study  only objects moving at most with speed of light. (One assumes in physics models that nothing travels faster than light -  essentially that says  these models are not suitable for studying universe in which some thing can travel faster than that)
      
      So I do not know on what basis some body said the following
      "Some scientists, with astro-physicists leading the charge, have gone out on a limb  to say flatly  that the formation of the Universe had nothing to do with God(or any such Supernatural Being)" 
      
      What ever models are used in science for universe - scientists are quite aware that they leave a lot of questions which do not have clear answers.
      
      Generally at least good scientists are much more careful about their statements - they make statements only after a proper study.
      
      But this information again coming from science which has less to do with God questions still may be quite interesting  while considering such questions - role of humans and how important they may be in universe --
      
      "if you took the entire population of humans, and squished all the space out of them, they would fit inside a sugar cube
      
      the nucleus of the atom compare to the atom is like
      a nickel compare to a baseball stadium"
      
      and the basis for such statement is
      "Most of the occupied part of an atom is in the nucleus, which is about 10^-5 times the diameter of the atom, and 10^-15 times the volume. If the nucleus were 100% full, the atom would be 99.999,999,999,999,9% empty space. We don't know how much of the nucleus is empty, but I would guess it is about as empty as the rest of the atom. In that case, the atom is about 99.999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,9… empty space."
      
      link for the above interesting discussion is
      http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index … 908AAMpnj9
      
      
      Wonder what do you feel about it-
      this whole universe it seems consists of mainly empty space - matter - substance in human beings all  of them joined together is just a little larger than sugar cube?
      
      Does it imply how much really human being matter in the universe?
      If not them who matters may be question?

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         A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         According to the same astro-physicists (Stephen Hawking being one of them) the universe is expanding (Hubble proposed the idea, and has been proved correct via measurements of the difference in the visible light spectrum emanating from distant galaxies)  i.e galaxies are moving further apart from each other, and what is making them so is the  presence of "dark energy" in what seemed empty space between those galaxies.
         
         Now they are also proposing the possiblity of not one but million other universes(multiverse), thus the potential for intelligent life on other solar/planetary systems is multiplied by a factor too unimaginable to contemplate. Thus Humans in their  earthly  corner  located in a distant arm of the Milky Way Galaxy holds no claim to being the center of the universe or any universe for that matter.

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            Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            No, just a bunch of gullible people running around rampant claiming humans are special for some odd reason.

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               soumyasrajanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Yes I agree - nice

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               A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Rare is the human who does not look at his existence in an egoccentric manner. Man's ego has been bruised enough by the realization that he is not the center of the Universe, and now to be told that his formation was never an intentional event, but rather the result of cascading events that , in all its multiplicity and complexity  had randomness written all over it, starting with the Big Bang down to the  formation of galaxies and the star systems that form those galaxies. to the initiation of  intelligent  life on a  small planet  humans call  home. It's just too much to take, and for those who believe in Divine Intervention,  the probity of these  scientific theories are suspect, to say the least.

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                  Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  To say the least.

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   Cagsilposted 11 years ago

   Last time I checked, you give your life meaning.

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      A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The last time I checked I still do.

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         Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I guess the bigger question is what meaning are other people perceiving about your actions versus what you think your own actions mean?
         
         Are they both the same? Or different?

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            A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Your question is irrelevant. Meaning,  as with beauty is always in the eyes ( or in the mind) of the beholder. What matters most is, if my intentions and actions led to a result that is acceptable (morally, ethically, or aesthetically)  both  to myself and the people perceiving my actions.

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               Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               *shakes head side to side - palm to face*

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                  A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Explain why you think my answer to your question stunned you to disbelief.

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                     Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     First you make the claim that the questions I posted were irrelevant. Then you proceeded to tell me that "meaning" is like beauty, as it is in the eye of the beholder- which isn't truth. Purpose works like beauty because it's suited to the individual. Meaning isn't.
                     
                     
                     Edit: the questions were quite relevant. If you had the ability to see past yourself, you would have understood the questions and their relevance.

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                        A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Now it's my turn to be stunned. I still maintain that your question is irrelevant.....for the same reason that you think I don't have the ability to see past myself. My answer infers that in all matters of human interactions, what might be meaningful to me may not necessarilty be meaningful to you... thus the subjective nature of "meaning" and the  intentions and actions  emanating  from it.
                        
                        If you disagree with that formulation... it's your prerogative. But to infer that I am being narcissistic by  labeling your questions irrelevant  is stunning.

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                           Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           You must spend an awful lot of time being stunned. "Meaning" and "Meaningful to me" are not the same thing at all. The former is constant (except where religious zealots such as yourself are trying to obfuscate and prove their mental superiority in the face of overwhelming evidence against), the latter is subjective to you.
                           
                           It is a concept and personal to you only. Like a god.

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                              A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              You are spliting hairs..parsing words.    I did not even know that you are capable of doing that.

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                                 Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 Not really.
                                 
                                 Sorry you didn't understand. Your self righteousness probably got in the way again.

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   Disappearingheadposted 11 years ago

   For a blind universe to produce a wonderful sentient bunch of beings that can marvel at its glory, but then one day they have passed into nonexistence; seems like the universe is playing a sick joke, made sicker because it is oblivious to our existence.
   
   It makes no sense to me unless there is a God whatever flavour religion one chooses to follow.

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      Living Well Nowposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The mind needs a brain to function. When the brain dies the emergent property of mind goes with it. What seems sick is for entities beyond the natural - gods if you will - to allow physical suffering and pain if the physical form is unnecessary.
      
      And what of our evolutionary ancestors and animal cousins? Are they just a means to an end who pass into nonexistence suffering pain and death as we do? We marvel at the numinous and we are repulsed by the cruelty and evil. Are gods who are oblivious to the starving, diseased infants and children who wants for food, water, shelter and love worthy of worship? Where were the gods during the Holocaust? The Rape of Nanking, the Trail of Tears? What a wicked, sick, cruel game existence would be if gods were real.

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         A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         The gods  you are referring to do not exist.... but have utility in the narrative of man's creativity, by conceptualizing his existence via mythologies and theologies.
         
         If those mythologies/theologies lead to ideas and ideals that make his existence more meaningful and fitful, then they have served their purpose

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            Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Hitler believed he was doing God's work.
            
            That the sort of thing you are talking about?

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               A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Hitler was delusional. If you did not know that...how come I am noy the least surprised.

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                  Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  You're not helping your case with such a statement...

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                     A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     You dont know Mark Knowles, do you?

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                        Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        No, not personally...I do recognize self-inflicted wounds when I see them posted though
                        

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                           A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           Thanks for your concern, but I'm not suicidal....metaphorically or otherwise.

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            Living Well Nowposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            And what if those mythologies lead to hate and intolerance? Does it matter if they originated in the Stone Age, Bronze Age or New Age? I think not.
            
            Let's assume gods exist. Whether there are .1, 1, 10 or an infinity^10 of them doesn't matter. Why bring into existence a universe with 100 billion galaxies containing an average of a hundred billion stars so that 13.7 billion years into its expansion, a great ape, on one of the trillions of planets, could branch from the evolutionary Tree of Life and form hundreds of religions and thousands of religious sects that deny the existence of the other's gods?
            
            Now, in order to get to this perfect place in time - call it the Cheshire Zone - billions of years of evolution had to occur leaving the fossilized remains from the ancestors of those great apes - including fossil fuels, which will only power the apes' technology to spread their beliefs for a few hundred years. After that, the limited resources will lead to a drastic reduction in the apes' population and evolution will bring to an end the species of homo sapiens.
            
            As we leave the Cheshire Zone, the planet the apes live on will warm and the sun it revolves around will grow larger, enveloping the extinct apes home world until it is blown away with sun's outer atmosphere 5 billion years from now. Forty billion years after the gods brought the universe into existence, it will die. Even the subatomic interactions between matter will cease. And for what purpose? So the unknown gods could be worshiped by long-extinct apes who existed and suffered as a species for 5-7 million years on one of trillions of planets?
            
            Why?

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               A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Man made mythologies (and theologies for that matter) have in fact been used by humans to inflict pain and suffering on his fellow humans. Man's earthly history is littered by layer upon layer of the debris and detritus of the wars that man has waged on each other based solely on myths and religious beliefs.
               
               I would argue that,  in this our century,  myths and religious beliefs have become less and less a factor in the chaos that man has brought upon each other. Ideologies, be they political, cultural/tribal, and economic  have become the central  etiologies of almost  all of the major wars  (W W 1and W W 11) and regional wars (Korea, Vietnam, The Balkans, The Middle East) of the 20th century.
               
               Now that we are at the dawning of the 21st century, it looks like  more of the same.
               
               Your allegorical tale is not too allegorical since it has happened here on earth, and maybe somewhere else in the universe, where similarly predisposed  supposedly intelligent entities exist. I must tell you though that your script would make for a blockbuster Hollywood movie... titled, "The Apocalypse 2"

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                  Living Well Nowposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I appreciate the comment. The "script" isn't just my opinion, it's supported by facts.
                  
                  Best of luck to you.

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   Druid Dudeposted 11 years ago

   Al...Cag thinks the universe revolves around him. Meaning and purpose is suited to the individual...he doesn't get that you said the same thing. 'Eye of the beholder' IS the individual.

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      Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Hey Druid, do me and yourself a favor.
      
      Quit talking about me and making false statements.

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      Druid Dudeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Just going by what you said. And don't threaten me pal.

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         Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Threaten you? WOW! Talk about absurd.

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            Druid Dudeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            My point, exactly...that's why you shouldn't do it. So you don't deny that I was only talking about what you said before.

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               Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               The fact that you claim I made a threat is what is absurd. Do you even think? WOW!

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   Druid Dudeposted 11 years ago

   You are attempting to change the focus here. I stated an 'opinion', that Cagsil thinks the universe revolves around Cagsil...you got bent. So...get bent. Easy enough. Spend your whole day that way.

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      Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I got bent?
      
      I told you to do me and yourself a favor. Quit talking about me and making false statements. How is that a threat? Answer the question.
      
      You're the one baiting people in the forums. Not me.

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   Druid Dudeposted 11 years ago

   Do what I do...blow it off. You still haven't denied that the statement you made concerning the forum subject was totally in agreement with what A.V. was saying, and that you simply were not comprehending. Just admit it. I said that about you and the universe because SO MANY of your statements tends to support this observation. Move on.

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      Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      

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   Druid Dudeposted 11 years ago

   Now, back on subject. A.V. I still maintain that mankind has set itself upon a mission: To rise above what we were, to quell the animal nature, and become more than the sum of our parts, this is why the search for God lies, not in the past or in some man written book (Although, there is much there that has been overlooked) but, rather in the future, further down the path away from our primitive beginnings, away fro the Garden. Our path is forward, into the unknown, continually striving to rise above what we are. We were the meal, now we are the chefs. We, as carbon based life have been, and are, under pressure, and as such, our 'purpose' is to become 'more perfect' as a diamond of a lifeform, surpassing all man has ever done...to find that there will always be more Everests to conquer, more frontiers to cross. Cross them all, and new ones will appear. That is why, as evidenced by the Olympics, that man is faster, better than ever before. The real test is for us to live on this finite planet. To continue, things really do have to change.

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      A.Villarasaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Well said Dude and I can only say Amen.

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   Druid Dudeposted 11 years ago

   Mark, your attempts to categorize that which defies categoration is really lame. I'm surprised that you can see someone elses righteousness through the self righteousness which is blinding you. Someone discusses a real aspect of existence, and all you can do is focus on religion. I still think you would fit in real welll in a church setting.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Sorry you didn't understand. Maybe lying about being a Druid dunnit?
      
      
      
      How brave of you to be yourself - oh - wait.................. LOLOLOL Dun I defy categorization? Iz I too hard fer yer ter unnerstand?

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         Druid Dudeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         So...is Ice Tea lying...he obviously isn't ice, and I'm sure you'll agree that he's not tea. Did Buddy Holley play with 'Crickets'? Were the Beatles insects? Hell, even the 'Beach Boys' weren't really beach boys! You focus on some of the most idiotic stuff. GROW UP.

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            Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            How brave of you. Well done you DRUID you!
            
            Same as Ice Tea I guess......... Like Lady Gaga prolly.
            
            Little wonder your religion causes so many fights.
            
            What is your name again?

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