Just for a different twist on all these "discussions". I believe He is the greatest scientist of all time (and beyond). He not only put everything here, but made all the rules/laws by which "scientists" deny Him (and His very existance). Physicall laws, chemical laws, gravity, electromagnetism, time, atoms. . . . on and on..
No wonder He said that man's wisdom is foolishness, and God's wisdom is foolishness to man.
werd! I mean Amen, LOL. I got a bad joke, I told it to BDaz yesterday but not sure if he laughed.
... You should totally see what I created in a lab.... absolutely nothing. really it is quite amazing.
I'll give you some scripture to back that up:
Proverbs 8: 1 Does not wisdom cry out, And understanding lift up her voice? 2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill, Beside the way, where the paths meet. 3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city, At the entrance of the doors: 4 "To you, O men, I call, And my voice is to the sons of men. 5 O you simple ones, understand prudence, And you fools, be of an understanding heart.
. . .
22 "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world. 27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, 29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; F14 And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, 31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men.
32 "Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the Lord; 36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death."
Whethere literally true or poetically true ... there's dare I say it ... A lot of wisdom there
Taken as something like metaphor or imagistic language, and not any dogmatic prancing, measuring, pontificating and restricting, I've got no problem with that.
Some of those preachers, tho, too...and others who think they have all the answers. I'll bet God is just laughing himself sick over them.
From the birth of consciousness, people have had the capacity to wonder where they came from but have not had the ability to explain everything. In different parts of the world and at different times, attempted explanations have emerged. Some of these have taken hold and gained a following. Most of them are mutually exclusive and therefore cannot all be correct. Unique among them is the scientific movement. It is unique in two main ways:
1. The body of knowledge it yields is transitory - i.e. it is constantly being replaced by closer and closer approximations to the truth.
2. It is unique in not claiming to know the unknowable - while all religions make extreme claims about our origins that are wholly untestable.
Science is humble where religion is arrogant.
Yet science is fruitful where religion is barren. For better or worse, the world we now inhabit is the product of scientific invention.
And so we move on intellectually and gain knowledge of the world. Now if we could just disconnect the "lizard brain" of our ancestors we may get the other part of ourselves past the stone age.
True he is the ultimate scientist as well as the ultimate artist.
"Unto Allah is your return and he is able to do all things" The Holy Quran.
But Mohit - aka-dj was talking about Jehovah, not Allah
when will people understand thee is only one GOD and not many Gods.You need a different word or words in that case to describe these different super entities
so many god what has happened to the one God.He has competition
I pity God. he has to fight to claim supremacy-such little power.
So we can agree that He also made scientists? And their brains?
What do you care if this or that scientist disagrees with your religious beliefs? Lots of scientists are religious, lots of them aren't. Why is it so important to you to discredit the entire discipline of science? Isn't that kind of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
I assume you drive a car and use electricity. God didn't discover the theories and the mechanics that provide you with those conveniences, science did. You could pray to God all day to start your car, but if no one had invented a starter you'd be up a creek.
Well God made 'em and science discovered 'em ... one of fhe cool things about life is discovering the mechanisms by which God chooses to operate ... true story ... I've gotten past the weirdness of God speaking to me audibly sometime and I've already lost enough friends because of it ... so just bear with me ... on this.
Your car starting comment triggered this memory:
I was driving home one day when God told me, "Go to the mall and have lunch".
Me: "I hate going to the mall .. besides I have food at home."
God: "Quit arguing and go to the mall, you have work to do."
Me: "Where do I eat."
God: "I'll tell you when you get there."
Me: "It better be someplace I like."
At the mall:
God: "Eat here." (As I approach a resturant.)
So I order a very ordinary mean and eat A friend of mine passes the window and waves to me.
God: "That's why you're here."
Me: "Waving at someone in the mall? That's stupid."
The meal has been completed and I am contemplating desert. The friend sudden sits down at my table and tells me her car won't start. She's late for a meeting with her husband.
Turns out I have jumper cables and am already parked near her. The parking spot in front of her clears out just in time for me to pull my car in front of hers.
On my way home:
God: "I liked watching you help a friend."
God knew all about jumper cables and no doubt could have started it Himself, sent someone else, not let it break in the first place.
But I got to help. Why? Don't know.
Stuff like that happens to me all the time.
And that's really nice, and I'm not even saying that's a bad thing. I'm glad that works in your life and it's a cool story. I'm just saying, you still needed the jumper cables, right? I mean, no need to send the jumper cable inventor to the gallows for heresy, is there?
That's all I'm sayin'.
Well... there was one other time ... but that's a whole diffrerent story... God often does work through the mundane, but not always. I certainly don't deny the visible material realm. I am just often aware of the "more". ... I'm just sayin ...
And yes, I agree 100% that the line between technology and theology is entirely artifical and completey unecessary.
Is anyone out there paying attention? BDazzler and I agreed on science & religion stuff.
See, life is good.
Once, on a whim, I decided to eat at McDonalds, a place I really don't like.
The food was so disgusting I left half of it and walked out.
Just outside the restaurant, I saw a scrawny wee cat with a lame back leg.
I rushed back inside and grabbed the remnants of my burger, still on the table.
I gave it to the cat.
God said - Cheers pal, that's what I'd planned all along
Look back at your story and it's no better than mine. At no time did you know what was going to happen. The 'prediction' is all retrospective (like most supposedly fulfilled prophesy). You are disposed to believe god is talking to you. But in riddles? Why did he not say - Your friend's car has a flat battery. It would have saved you some time and a crap meal.
Must try harder...
I think you don't understand what they are saying. Yes the scientist did those things, but from the things the scientist discovered or crafted with what they have found.... those things were already here.
There are only things not disclosed yet. I mean, to find something a new discovery means it was always already there just not found yet.
Or like the arts. Musical notes have always been, discovering how to put them together and create your own tune is a different story but there isn't even 1 note in existence that did not already exist just left to be understood.
Ofcourse God made everything on Earth today,and it is by his grace that scientists are succeeding in their findings.Big up to you all for understanding God's might.
And what about yesterday? Don't tell me Satan did it yesterday
Whaaaa!!! yesterday is just a memory. lol
Now I am too scared to think about tomorrow in that regard
Don't worry, we have The Spaghetti Monster for tomorrow
plz clarify me more about yesterday,may be i didn't grad u guys,pardon me for that.I'm always learning here,we learn till we die,its only stones and lifeless beings that refuses to learn.Guide me through precious memories,i'm poor and weak in waoo! HP is a great place i see? Loneliness is gone forever,thank u to Hitler for fueling the advent of internet.Huh...God is great brothers.
Misha was making a joke. Your use of the word "today" was a reference to the ever-present enternal "now". The other way of using "today" is to mean "today only".
Sandy turned it around, used your original meaning of "today" and made another joke.
When Sandy makes a joke, though, there's always some truth in it.... so listen carefully to her.
No man, you should learn some more English before picking on serious topics. That's all what I was making fun of.
I know you can do it, I've been in your shoes
Sandra your back look stunning plzzz can u turn so we can see you face,im guessing that u are a gem,my friend here is arguing me.Can u do that plz?
Are u trying to say that she is a vamp?I don't believe u Misha.She's a gem,and she's hiding the beauty so guys at HP don't devlp heartache dreaming of her or how to stalk her.
Whaaa!!! there it is with the vampire thing. I promise I do not drink blood and I love garlic.
Yeah, sure ... I'm thinking about flying west to do research about a new species of vampire that can survive in the sunlight and can withstand garlic ...
plz don't direct any of your comment to sandra,she's harmless.Focus more on your research,i like it.Garlic is much here in my country and its medicinal too.
LOL ... It's OK accofranco!!! Sandra and I are good, good friends and the vampire joke is a very old joke between us.
There is a hubber here named Sufidreamer who has written an excellent article on the medicianal value of garlic.
There are many "inside jokes" between friends here. It is not my intention to exclude you from them.
Yeah BDaz, focus on the research. muhahahaahahah *evil vampire laugh* yes, we hate darkness, and cold, love garlic, gag at the site of blood and fancy ourselves in the mirror often... to make sure we don't have any boogers and stuff.. you know how it is. You are one of us!
Thanks accofranco, that was nice of you.
Sandra u know,i like Misha,people like him will definitely make heaven.He is a humble man,subtle and mild.Do u guys know each other in person before?I guess u two can make a nice match,think about it.
LOL We know each other for quite some time, but only remotely. And we both have kids and families of our own - which does not really stop us from loving one another. Don't mix with lust
O i see! BDazzler im sorry,pardon me ur highness,u know some folks made me understand HP wrongly through their prejudiced selfish posts on my forum topic.But my impression is changing now,i love HP more now.Please always guide through to fame here,i love u all.And i have come to appreciate some hubbers more,AEvans,James,mark knowles,countrywomen,Sandra,misha,pgrundy and many others.Love to u all!
Follow me in rejoicing,i just receive a $235 from a friend who borrowed from me last year and my investment yielded extra $305 today,im happy sipping down some glass of wine with an old friend...
God the worlds greatest scientist my arse. You anemic god -botherers give me the shits with your sanctimonious crap! The bible was written by men, which is bloody obvious because of all the contradiction, threats and fear driven drivel between it's covers.Your omnipotent omniscient invisible friend is a lot of superstitious rot. Am I expected to believe that your god is heavily in to jumper leads but does not mind the violent death of infants. Your ignorance-by-choice makes me want to puke!!
LOL Earnest, thanks for the giggles
Oh, and since I am posting here, I personally don't see any contradiction between god and science - as long as you do not define god as a white bearded man on a cloud cooking sinners for eternal dinner
I have agreed with Misha! It is a real occasion!
Misha I am always glad to see anyone get a giggle. (Laughter is the best medicine) although I can't agree with you on god and science. The world is not 6000 years old, an essential belief for god botherers) the belief in god is an inherent part of our psych. If we did not have a religion we will make one as we are terrified of death, and religion offers a way to supposedly avoid it. Psychology has known about religiosity for some time and Carl Gustaf Jung has written extensively on the subject as have many other good minds.Religion holds the world in an ice age of thinking and the time has come to dispense with these sort of gutless crutches.
Those with open minds may like to read "The hedonistic imperative" or "trouble at the mill"
After all it's only fair. I studied the bible!
To some extent, absolutely yes. But Hedonism and Jungian psychology are just two lenses on the world, also...
No time for a big discussion, but I, for one, admit to being scared of death--do not necessarily even believe in an afterlife--but still 'entertain' a concept of God. Hindus, I believe, do as well, though their ideas differ quite a bit from Christianity and definitely from that of 'Christianists.'
I can't understand why Christains get so much guff, most of them are pretty harmless and I certainly like to hear a nice and kind word over a mean one any day.
If an atheist came to my door with science books and "free" education, I would be thanking them for coming to my door and offering me some free knowledge, unfortunately that kind of education has to be paid for...
So if you want the world educated you better get your kicks on and start walkin like the white bearded invisible God believers do. lol
Well, Christian knowledge is not exactly free, it is loaded...
yeah, yeah, you know what I meant. they are harmless anyways and it makes them happy, so why not let them do their thing. If you don't believe, you don't believe. No need to be angry. I mean it sounds pretty stupid to be upset about something that doesn't exist.
Like tomorrow lol
The hedonistic imperative is about brain chemistry not hedonism, and provides some real food for thought about belief. "Trouble at the mill" is about the difficulty of chemical reactions to empathogens in the brain. Professor Stephen Hawking is a contributer to the site.It is enormous, bigger than the bible! I have been reading for two years so far. The contributers say nothing about religion directly, but it is pretty hard to reconcile with religious belief once you get an idea of brain chemistry and the effect it has on our beliefs.
You are one angry man. I gues three letters push all your hotbuttons.
I read your hub, where you (not too politely) told me to stay away. So, out of respect I did. It's a shame you don't do the same.
If you want to be a bit more "Australian", I welcome the discussion.
aka-dj - you told all nonbelievers to leave you alone, recently, on the religion forum. Yet the Religion forum is a place (officially) to discuss, among other things, epistemology, or the theory of knowledge. This is the Science forum. Do you seriously expect to get an easy ride here when you come in insisting that your brand of non-science is superior to science?
No, not superior. Only a different perspective.
I don't expect an easy ride, but I object to the "colorful language. You did read the first sentence he wrote, ye? I mean I have had much interaction with the the likes of yourself, Mark etc. None of you have reverted to such emotive language.
aka-dj It's true. I don't have any respect for religious crap from those who are so afraid of life they don't have one of their own and have to resort to a mad fantasy. I for one will say and do what I believe is truthful, regardless of your view, and yes I am always angry with those who would retard intellectual growth by trying to get others to believe in a book that promotes a psychotic murderous entity.Beats me how you can read crap like that and not see the madness in what you call god. If the god of the bible walked in front of my car, my brakes would fail! To explain away mans inhumanity to man by creating a monster that all must obey from a book that was written by sexist controlling men and describes a vengeful entity is a weak cop out. Sure I hate it, so should you.
Well, you might want to ask yourself why you consistently get a negative reaction when your "different perspective" seems to be: "Hey guys - what if scientific knowledge is all bull crap - admittedly I don't understand it, but I have this different perspective that there is a magical invisible super being in the sky and all this rubbish you are spending your time investigating is actually explained in this 2,000 year old book that was written by a bunch of arrogant male politicians in the bronze ages. They had no scientific training or knowledge - but you should really consider listening to this because I really, really believe it, even though there is absolutely zero evidence for it."
In fact , you might want to ask yourself why there is a growing number of people who are fed up of listening to what religious people have to say in general - not just their "different perspective," on subjects they are unqualified to have an opinion on. You even started a thread asking us who do not believe to leave you alone. Sorry - we are not going to. I personally am also fed up of listening to people claim to have an answer to the unanswerable, especially when they are claiming some "higher moral authority," and consistently prove themselves to be no better, or even worse than any one else.
Here is an interesting statistic for you:
80% of the US population claim to be christian. 80% of the US prison population is christian.
8% of the US population claims to be atheist. 0.02% of the US prison population is atheist.
http://askville.amazon.com/Religion-pri … Id=8384184
I mean - be honest. You are not really interested in learning anything here - you are just interested in casting doubts on scientific theories because they do not agree with your world-view that we were created in a mythical god's image in our present form. Yet you are quite happy to claim to have an understanding of something that you cannot even describe.
If I genuinely thought you were interested in learning about the way we came to be, I would be more than happy to help - but you have made it plain you see scientific knowledge as an attack on your irrational beliefs and atheism as just another belief system.
You have spent a good portion of your time trying to convince people that scientific knowledge is exactly the same as a faith in a god. Keep on repeating the same hackneyed phrases over and over will not make it come true and oddly enough, might even cause some people to become frustrated with you.
Just read the following, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(biology)
and some of the links contained within.
I draw your attention to the often used words, "theory", believe, and the absolute conclusion, that there is no conclusive, viable theory. Much less an explanation.
How the "heck" can you be so sure you know where you are, if you have no idea where you started from?
Yes I debunk a lot of science, simply because they use the same type of language you hold us guilty of.
They even go so far as to list a link to the "creation myth", as an acceptible, viable alternative.
The incredible complexity of a single cell is beyond our full understanding. It arose from what?
How exactly? The description of this cell reads more complex than software programs to run computers.
Oh and I'm the one who believes fairy tales. Of course.
Like I said.
You are not interested in learning anything - merely repeating the same stuff over and over. Doing so will not make the "theory" of a god any more logical, viable, testable or falsifiable.
You are just repeating the same old "I cannot conceive of anything else, therefore there must have been a god did it."
How does this is any way compare to a scientific theory?
And just because some religious maniac edited the page to say "Creationism is a viable scientific theory" will not make it so either.
Have you noticed how many science pages at wikipedia have been removed from public editing thanks to religious vandals?
I asked to be left alone on the religion forum. You know that it hasn't happened, and is not likely to any time soon.
I see, in your own polite way, you are asking the same of me (and other "religious" types) to do the same here on the science forum.
I don't suppose you (really) expect me to just vanish. (As so many have done since I have been on hubpages).
Actually, I was suggesting you educate yourself.
Religious people have been forcing their version of non science and "higher morals" on people for thousands of years. I do not expect you to stop anytime soon (and I am not saying just you personally). Once they have an irrational belief stuck in their head - they seem unable to see past that. What I am trying to do is educate you to the fact that faith-based beliefs are just that.
If you are prepared to keep on thinking it is some kind of knowledge, all I can do is try to educate you.
LOL This happens occasionally, you should not give any meaning to this
Oh, absolutely Earnest! You mean organized forms of religion, and I depicted those as a white-bearded man...
But we all know there are quite a few things science is not capable of explaining, at least not yet, and most of us who lived long enough had some kind of experiences that cannot be explained rationally - so we all more or less feel there is something bigger than us. Whether you call it nature or universe or god or something else does not really matter
Oh, I think you might appreciate this story from my personal experience http://www.funandsafedriving.com/ftopict-86.html
No kiddin, didn't know you got into motocross at one point in your life. You surprise me everyday! Glad you made the jump. I was gonna post there but I forgot my password and well, I am too lazy to go back and forth to email.
Great story, had me on full throttle for a little bit, the suspension.. I mean suspense was insane.
LOL I did a lot of things during my not so short live to date. Most of them stupid in hindsight, but heck, that's the way we learn
Yeah werd! I learned that sliding down a banister on your bum is a good way to brake your arm.
I learned that you cannot walk off the back of a moving truck and keep the same momentum or not fall.
I also learned that you will inevitably hit the one thing you don't want to hit... what do they call that, fixation.
I read your story Micha, It bought back a few memories for me. The "hand of god" people experience when in danger is in reality the trained automated response of our sub-conscious.
Some people have very little access to this great facility in times of danger. they go straight to panic and usually have an accident. Maybe waiting for god to intervene? I always become calm like you do and seem to have miraculous skills too. After a near miss I have to stop and wait for the blood to return to my brain when fear rises up in me. Too late fear! The job is done!
To earnestshub,if u believe in a god that has the power to harm people,perpetrate their lives,u should also believe in an opposite of this god,that is a kind merciful one,ofcourse thats the principle of life,whenever good exist the opposite which is bad must exist too! So beloved,God is real.I have a book on this,may be i will sumarize it as a hub for hubbers to read and learn.Thanks earnestshub,believe it,he is real,remember the french psycologists that wrote several books trying to misled people that God doesn't exist.What happened when he was about to die? Ask me i will tell you.
LOL I am definitely not obsessed with this I have my own obsessions, and formal religions are not among them. Yet I disagree that they are harmless. They scare people, they lie to people - and this is responsible for a lion share of our current problems IMO.
I know I will be called out on that statement, I won't get into any further discussion of it cause I did not think it through completely yet. Later
Yeah Earnest, we can give it different names, yet we don't really know what it is and how it works - but we know that it affects us and sometimes comes to rescue when we need help
back to the topic of world's greatest scientist lol ... as a NA ...we believe that the *Man Upstairs* gave us everything we need ..on this planet ...we just need to find it
Paraglider, you are on What time? I am in Australia and am having a rather late night it is 11pm here.
You do persevere with the god-botherers no matter how loony.I admire your gentle ways, but alas I am unlikely to ever be that philosophical!
I thought I actually posted something of scientiffic value. IE, the complexity of just a single cell. How there is NO accepted theory as to how life arose. There is even a statement that says, cells come from other cells. So where did the first one come from?
To add to the dillema, cells need oxygen to survive, yet, that same oxygen kills of any exposed amino acids, during it's (attempted) formation into dna. (if I understand the process correctly).
Furthermore a single cell cannot "live", without all it's neccessary component parts, interdependantly carrying out life-sustaining activities. That then says they all had to be present at ONE moment in time, which "kick started" life. A scientiffic impossibility. Give it trillions of years if you like.
OK - Must have been magic then. Screw the science, let's go with "I don't understand, therefore it was a magical invisible super being"
Sounds like real magic from the magical mystery God to me.
I have seem magicians pull bunnies out their hats, heard theories about the anti-matter and laugh because they can't figure out where the mysterious light disappears into when it is gone.
So I am not laughing because they may or may not find out where it is going but laughing because they are chasing ideas that elude to nothing but more questions with more questions in the attempt to in some ways prove that God is not a factor.
Why anyone would think it is wise to find "nothing" is beyond me. *hey guys look what I discovered! Nothing!* The wise man says, look see this light cone... now watch it disappear... the one called stupid for believing in the invisible says.... okay wise one, now bring it back! LOL and the wise man replies... well.. umm.... I know where it went... and um... you see... and... pulls a match out of his back pocket and goes here it is.
sure, the stupid one replies, okay very good, now prove that it was the same light that just disappeared.. . the wise one says, oh well see, things don't just vanishes and um.. well..you just don't understand science and you need to educate yourself.
The one called stupid intervenes and says.. yeah at least I have an answer. LOL. )
I don't understand, but I must have an answer, and the only answer I can come up with is.
A god did it.
Yeah, sounds pretty stupid to me............ LOL
By george I think you got it.
With one minor exception.
Your "magical invisible super being" couldn't create his way out of a wet paper bag, with a knife in his hand, and detailed instructions on how to do it !!!
What science? I just stated the position of "science"on the issue! They don't have clue.
But I am glad to see, you admitted you limits. That's good.
aka-dj and Sandra - the scientific enquiry into the origin of life has nothing whatever to do with trying to disprove the existence of god. It is simply another legitimate field for scientific enquiry. What's the big issue?
I love science. I suppose I can't understand for certain why a person cannot say, God did it and let it be just fine to think? What's it gonna hurt? Nothing. So why anyone would want to say, go get educated stupid... well I am sure you can see the problem now can't you?
I say God did it, saying so doesn't make me ignore all the things that science has discovered but maybe scientist have a problem with people like me saying, wow God instead of praise scientist.
There's no problem as far as I'm concerned. People are welcome to believe what they like. All I ask is that people accept that their beliefs may not be rational. Meanwhile, science will continue to try to investigate difficult questions rationally. OK?
I also love science, its so fascinating and I am a Science graduate .
I think quantum physics is the physics of God.
So why didn't he reveal them to Newton? The guy was smart enough to understand it and it would have saved us 250 years!
Heard the saying "god works in mysterious ways" Its the truth. As humans our brains are too insipid to understand God in totality.
I can write and get ranked with the Holy Bible and Holy Quran but I still cannot understand God in totality.
You are losing me again. You are stating that something is a scientific impossibility, then that science has no clue. Science has many clues, and are ever closer to understanding where we came from.
Merely saying "Oh, I am certain 100% it was a god," is what held science back for hundreds of years. You have arbitrarily decided to ignore the scientific evidence in favor of evolution because you do not understand how a cell came to be in existence.
And I still do not see how the fact that abiogenesis has not yet been explained causes you to throw away evidence that we evolved. And as I said many times, all you have to say is "Oh - that is easy peasy - God did it."
But - if you are going to put that forward as a scientific theory - don't you think you should provide some evidence?
How is God a scientist? Science requires things like falsification, testing, hypotheses and so forth. Let's presume God exists. Does he need the scientific method? Does he need peer review? If you believe in God, perhaps you shouldn't lower him so just so you can feel like the evidence of science you see around you is his direct doing.
To think of God, or beings of higher consciousness or whatever, in that way, is supremely narcissistic, and presumes to be equal to God/being.
Caleb - you are right that Science requires method. But the obvious response to your 'Let's presume God exists' is 'Let's not bother'.
Fair enough. I was responding to the religious folk that feel the compulsion to conflate religion with science in the hopes that it will legitimize their belief. It's a philosophically incoherent position.
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