Should we remove swimming pools from society?

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   JaxsonRaineposted 11 years ago

   In 2010, 209 children from age 1-12 died from gunshots(including accidents).
   In 2010, 723 children from age 1-12 died from drowning.
   
   Should we remove swimming pools from society, to save those children? Would it be worth it to save just one child?

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      Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Swimming pools kill more kids than guns huh? Probably we need more guns to pertect them kids innit kun?

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         JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I'm trying to be serious here. Why are we more concerned with kids who die because of guns, and not as concerned with so many more kids who die because of pools?

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            psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            We aren't.  In most states pools are more heavily regulated than guns.

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               JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Since it isn't working though, why not remove the pools?

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                  psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  You are making a straw man argument. 
                  
                  A fence and locked gate is the best way to protect everyone.  And a gun safe and trigger lock would have a similar effect.  Which is why I accept the parallel and think both protections should be mandatory.

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                     JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Does putting a fence and a locked gate prevent kids from drowning all the time?
                     
                     If not, what do we do about the ones who still die?
                     
                     Besides, a gun safe and trigger lock is a different topic, with its own negative consequences.

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                        psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        A child proof fence and child supervision would prevent every drowning caused by unsupervised falls into the pool.
                        
                        If the child drowns as they are watching, that is the parents responsibility, not the community's.
                        
                        I also do not think that the existence of one stupid and avoidable way to die means we have to be "fair" and legalize the keeping of assault rifles, rabid weasels and cyanide covered lollipops.
                        
                        Instead we should do the best we can in every area, as the opportunity arises.

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                           JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           Requiring supervision doesn't mean the child will be supervised. That's the point. Just because we have rules doesn't mean those rules will always be followed. If the rules aren't working, how far should we go to save one child's life?
                           
                           If you look at a society, and see Cause 1 responsible for 100 children's deaths, Cause 2 responsible for 500 children's deaths, and Cause 3 responsible for 4,000 children's deaths, why is there more outrage about Cause 1 than Cause 3?

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            Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Intention. Trying to be serious? LAWL That would be why you need to hide behind a fake user name and avatar.
            
            Untry.

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               JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Just because I understand the risk of putting personal information on the internet has nothing to do with this.
               
               Are you not concerned about the children dying?

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               EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Why not try and answer his point, instead of going off on a straw man tangent about fake user names?

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         whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Neither swimming pools or guns killed anyone.

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            Any Other Voiceposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I think it was people that caused death in both situations...either to themselves or to someone else?
            
            Oh, I know! People should be banned!

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      rfmoranposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Every summer I am revolted by the expected news reports of a kid drowning in a pool. It is one of the most important responsibilities a parent can have. Many deaths occur at parties, where all the adults are standing around talking and drinking, assuming someone else was looking after the kids. No they shouldn't be banned, but parents or guardians need to get their acts together.

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      Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I love the way the gun lobby diverts logical discussion by coming up with silly arguments.
      
      In Australia, there was a similar mass shooting in 1996.  As a result, the government banned semi-automatic weapons.   Civilians still have guns - they just can't have semi-automatic ones.  We haven't had another massacre since 1996.  Doesn't that sound like a simple solution, which still allows citizens to hold the kind of guns envisaged by your Founding Fathers?

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         JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         This isn't a diversion, it's a different topic. I only included the stats on gun deaths to give a sense of comparison for the number of children who drown every year.
         
         I'll discuss guns with you in one of the gun threads.

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         whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Why do you assume the illegality of semi-automatic weapons is the reason that no other attack took place? I assume you have proof that that is the reason.

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            Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Because no other measures were taken to prevent them, and we can see how mass shootings have continued (and escalated) in America, where nothing was done.

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               whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               That's not proof that is an assumption.

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               JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Other thread, but they haven't escalated. Only media coverage of them has escalated. They have actually decreased in occurrence.

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      Uninvited Writerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I think the timing of this post is incredibly insensitive. How many of those children were held under water until they drowned?

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         JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         So children who drown aren't as important as children who are murdered? THAT is insensitive.
         
         This whole 'sensitivity' thing makes no sense. This discussion isn't harming anybody. It's actually a good time to have it, because we are all thinking about the value of human life, especially children.

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            Uninvited Writerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Everyone is still hurting from this... at least those of us with a heart.
            
            I was not saying that and you know it.

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               JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               So? Why does this thread stop you from hurting?
               
               I have a heart, but I can have a heart and have a discussion.

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      Don Wposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Comparing swimming pool deaths to gun deaths is a false analogy. So let me make your analogy more accurate in the form of a question:
      
      If you knew of some swimming pools that were designed and built specifically for the purpose of drowning people as efficiently as possible (including children), and some of these pools had been used to drown children, would you want them to remain open? Even if the number of deaths caused by them was much less than the number of deaths caused by something else.
      
      And by the way, what's your data source?

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   knolyourselfposted 11 years ago

   Rather I would remove children from swimming pools if must go to extremes.

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      JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      How do you do that?

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         whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         By taking freedom away from them how else?

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            JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Locking them up? Putting tracking devices on them? I don't see how it could be implemented.

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               whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I don't know you would have to ask someone in favor of such a thing.

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   psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

   We should require they always be fenced and that parents supervise children within the fence.  Which most states do.
   
   Y'know, like a gun safe and trigger lock--but compulsory.

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      JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      And yet they still die. Rules and regulations don't always do what they are supposed to do. What do you do then?

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   tussinposted 11 years ago

   It's more logical to look at percentages.  What fraction of children who had guns aimed at them died from gunshot wounds, and what fraction of children who entered a pool drowned?

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      JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      How about, what fraction of children who were in the vicinity of guns?
      
      Really, it doesn't matter what the fraction it is... does the fraction matter to those 723 dead children?

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         tussinposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         It matters to your argement that pools cause more deaths than guns.  My point which you failed to grasp is that the opposite is actually true if you look at death rates per encounter.
         
         Guns cause more deaths than pools because a greater fraction of people die after having a gun aimed at them than die after entering a pool.

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            JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Guns cause more deaths per encounter.
            
            Pools cause more deaths.
            
            You can't change the totals by using a percentage.
            
            I could just as easily say, what percentage of times a gun fires a bullet does it kill a child? I bet that's a lot lower than what percentage of times a pool is used does a child die. It doesn't matter though, more children die from drowning than from guns.

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               mrpopoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Your last paragraph, amended for a pool:
               
               "What percentage of times does a pool kill a child if the child walks by it?"
               
               You have a talent for making straw man arguments, I've noticed.

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                  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  And for a gun:
                  
                  "What percentage of times does a gun kill a child if the child walks by it?"
                  
                  Looks like a tossup to me as the answer is a flat zero both times.

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                     whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     I have trained my guns to just go off.

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                     mrpopoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     I would rather not amend the sentence to be illogical, but if you insist:
                     
                     "what percentage of times a pool fires water does it kill a child?"
                     
                     The comparison is unfair because if a bullet does not hit a child it won't kill them, but if the child is not in the pool it won't kill them either.

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                        whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Does a pool fire water often?

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                           mrpopoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           No, which is why I stand by my original statement, as the second one does not logically compare a gun's hit % to a pool's hit %.

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                              whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              Does a gun sitting by a pool fire often?

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                                 mrpopoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 I certainly hope not.

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   PrettyPantherposted 11 years ago

   First, I suspect if you were to include children ages 13-17, your numbers would look vastly different.
   
   Second, children are undoubtedly exposed to pools on a much more frequent basis than they are to guns.  As you said in another thread, statistics are meaningless unless you control for variables. 
   
   Third, I've never heard anyone complain that their freedom is being curtailed because they're required to put a locked fence around their pool.  Most people understand that responsibility comes with pool ownership and are glad to take measures to prevent loss of innocent life, unlike some selfish gun owners who balk at any kind of sensible regulations.

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      whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      To which sensible regulations do you refer?

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      JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      1 - It would be different, but I'm most concerned over small children who have no real faculties for protecting themselves.
      
      2 - I'm not talking about rates. I'm talking about raw numbers. It doesn't matter what the rates are, but the rate of how many times a gun is used or how many times a pool is used compared to how many times it kills a child, I'm certain the pool deaths would be more common. Again, in a discussion about totals, the rate isn't relevant.
      
      3 - But our restrictions aren't working. This is supposed to be about drownings, not about guns.

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   whoisitposted 11 years ago

   If outlawing firearms keeps them off the streets then we should do the same with drugs.

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   secularist10posted 11 years ago

   Tussin made an excellent point. It is most certainly about rates and percentages. The percentage killed per encounter or per incident is relevant because it points to the destructive potential of the thing being measured.
   
   If 90% of people who do X die, but only 5% of people who do Y die, which is more dangerous, X or Y?
   
   You say "Oh, but what if that 5% represents many more people than the 90%?" All that means is that if an equal number of people did both, then the tables would turn, and X would be the more dangerous thing, both in proportional AND absolute terms.
   
   So if there were an equal number of "child-gun encounters" as there were "child-pool encounters", then voila, more kids would be dead from guns. Incidentally, the agenda of the NRA and other gun promoters is precisely that--to have guns more pervasive in daily life. But I digress.
   
   We must look at rates.
   
   Here's another one for you. 100% of people who take cyanide die. How many people actually died from cyanide poisoning last year? Probably only a handful. So clearly cyanide is a lot less dangerous than a swimming pool, right? Jaxson, do you see how ridiculous this line of thinking is?
   
   Quick question: who is richer, China or Italy? Well, China has a much larger economy--i.e. more dollars than Italy. So Chinese must be richer than Italians, right? Wrong. Because the rate of poverty is much higher in China than in Italy. It's about rates.

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      JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      If 100% of people who drink a gallon of bleach die, and that comes out to be 1 person a year, then is that a more important topic than something where 1% of people who do X die, and that comes out to 1000 people per year?

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         mrpopoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         People are free to drink gallons of bleach on their own accord.
         
         Unless someone is weaponizing cyanide or swimming pools, I think guns are a bigger threat to individual freedoms.

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            whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            A gun ensures our freedoms.

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               mrpopoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               ...how?

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                  whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Well lets see, guns were used in the American Revolution and other wars in our country. You may have noticed our military are issued weapons and not noodles. Was that a serious question? I was robbed once at gunpoint and when the robber started to leave I retrieved my weapon and took my money back and held the person until the police could get there. You see the police are not around when you need them.

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                     mrpopoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     The use of a weapon in war hardly makes it an ensurer of freedom. Or should I put nuclear bombs in that same category?
                     
                     The fact that you were robbed "at gunpoint" should alarm you to its potential in threatening individual freedoms.

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                     Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Good for you.  Did you really need a semi-automatic weapon with a large clip to do that? Or was a hand gun just fine?
                     
                     Banning assault weapons might not stop people killing, but it would reduce the number of innocents they could kill at one time.

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                        logic,commonsenseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        So if they kill the same amount of people, but at a slower rate, it's okay then?

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                           mrpopoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           How would a gun with a smaller clip kill the same amount of people?
                           
                           I would also think it logical that a slower killing rate would naturally result in a lower death count.

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                           Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           It's highly unlikely they would kill the same amount of people - because the slower the rate, the more likely it is that help will arrive.
                           
                           In the recent massacre, if that boy's mother had had just a handgun instead of an assault rifle, how many people do you think he would've been able to kill?

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      JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      No, that proves my point, actually.
      
      It's not about the rate. Cyanide isn't a huge problem, even though 100% die.
      
      The causes that kill the most children are the most important causes to look at.

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         secularist10posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Not if there are countless more children who are not harmed by that cause.
         
         Look, millions of people die from car accidents. Why isn't there an uproar over that? Because we know that, relative to the vast number of car rides that happen every day constantly, it's negligible. The same cannot be said of guns.
         
         Your odds of getting killed in a car accident, on a "per-event" basis are vastly lower than getting killed by a gun, on a "per-event" basis.
         
         This is because a gun is built solely for the purpose of killing quickly and efficiently. A car is built for the purpose of transportation.
         
         If cyanide was as prevalent in the lives of children as guns or swimming pools then yes, there would be many more deaths, and we would need to address that more seriously. Why is it not so prevalent? Precisely because it is controlled and regulated.

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            whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            So if I understand we should have a homicide rate equal to the amount of firearms in this country?

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            JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            So, fewer children who die from causes that are a higher incident rate are more important than more children who die from causes that are a lower incident rate?
            
            And you ignored my argument about how often guns are used, but you keep bringing up rates.
            
            I guess you just care more about 200 children than 700 children?

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               secularist10posted 11 years agoin reply to this

               "fewer children who die from causes that are a higher incident rate are more important than more children who die from causes that are a lower incident rate?"
               
               When it comes to public policy, yes. If you want to talk about personal experience of each family, then every individual is precious. So statistics don't matter anyway.
               
               The rate matters for public policy, and this is why car accidents are not a major public policy concern.
               
               "And you ignored my argument about how often guns are used, but you keep bringing up rates."
               
               I wasn't aware you made any such argument. If your point is that guns aren't used as often, then why would you want to make the problem worse by having more gun use?
               
               "I guess you just care more about 200 children than 700 children?"
               
               Obviously a straw man and offensive. You and I disagree on various things, but I would have expected better from you.

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                  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Ok, I just disagree. I think the raw total is more important.
                  
                  If 1 kid dies a year from cyanide(100% death rate), then I don't think that should be our number one priority.
                  
                  I said what I said because your arguments indicate that the rate is more important than the total, so the 200 are more important than the 700. It's just an extension of your argument. If you don't like it, then maybe you have a problem with the argument. You should be focusing, not on guns, but on things that kill kids 100% of the time, regardless of how many actually die.

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                     tammybarnetteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     I apologize for interrupting this conversation, but Jax you know the percentages per event are the true numbers and averages used in statistical information. Second, comparing pools to guns is also an apples to oranges arguement and you know this as well, a ridiculous comparison.

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                        JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        All I did was give a comparison for a sense of the severity of the problem, in total lives affected yearly.
                        
                        Anything else you try to draw from it is not my fault, that's not what I said or intended.

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                     secularist10posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Jaxson:
                     
                     If you believe the raw total is more important, then you should be focusing all of your energies on car accidents. Tens of thousands of people are killed in car accidents each year. Multiple times more than the number killed by guns or swimming pools combined. Therefore you should be expending multiple times the amount of energy on car accidents as on guns or anything else. You can't have it both ways. The fact that you choose to spend so much time and energy defending guns indicates your political bias.
                     
                     Obviously, if only 1 or 2 people die from something, it's not that big of a deal, no matter the rate. It becomes a public issue when hundreds of people every year die, or more.
                     
                     No, Jaxson, it is not an extension of my argument. It is a demonstration that when push comes to shove, you need to resort to offensive and outlandish remarks because the facts and reason do not support your argument.
                     
                     Final point: why do so few people die from cyanide? Because cyanide is well-regulated and restricted in its use. Why do so few people die from guns? Precisely because guns are regulated and restricted. If, as the NRA (and I assume you as well) want, guns were not regulated nearly to the degree that they are, then the raw number of deaths from firearms would skyrocket. And then what would you say? When guns were worse both proportionally and absolutely?

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                        mrpopoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Aging is a bigger cause of death than car accidents, but I agree otherwise.

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                           secularist10posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           Unfortunately there is not much the law can do about that, lol! If only...

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                              mrpopoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              The law certainly can't, but we can surely focus our energies on fighting against aging.
                              
                              This article had some interesting points in the matter: http://www.sens.org/files/pdf/ENHANCE-PP.pdf

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                        JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        I didn't say drownings were a bigger problem than car accidents. This is just a thread about drownings. We can talk about cars elsewhere if you want.
                        
                        I defend guns for a different reason, so it doesn't indicate a bias as you suggest.
                        
                        Who sets the limit for how many deaths are 'important'? You said hundreds, so if only 199 kids were shot and killed every year would that no longer be important? I'm really not following your logic here.
                        
                        And yes, it was an extension of your argument, until this post where you changed your requirements. You said the rate was more important than the total, which means that the group with the lower rate and higher total is less important than the group with the higher rate and lower total. It's perfect logic stemming from your statements.
                        
                        Final point. When states loosened gun laws to let people carry around everywhere, did homicide rates skyrocket? Nope, they went down. When the assault weapon ban ended, did rates skyrocket? Nope, they went down.

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                           secularist10posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           The real thrust of this thread, as per your OP, is about public safety, so that is the issue I'm concerned with.
                           
                           I won't get into the relationship with homicide rates here, there's plenty of evidence out there to contradict your position that guns go hand-in-hand with safety. And I am in the middle of writing a hub on that, probably post that in a few days.
                           
                           "Who sets the limit for how many deaths are 'important'? You said hundreds, so if only 199 kids were shot and killed every year would that no longer be important? I'm really not following your logic here."
                           
                           Then just take a step back and try to grasp the larger point I'm making. It's not about a specific number, but rather a general range.
                           
                           If 1,002 people die from X, and 1,003 people die from Y, which is worse? Well, technically Y is worse, but that seems a rather dumb calculus, don't you think? They're both pretty bad. Bean counting is pointless. It makes a lot more sense to look at general totals. They are equal, for all intents and purposes.
                           
                           You are trying to twist my arguments with this "requirements" mumbo jumbo. I've been talking about general trends, patterns, risks. That's what public policy is about. If you really did not understand my earlier statements, voila, I have clarified them for you.
                           
                           Have the last word if you want.

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            wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            "Look, millions of people die from car accidents. Why isn't there an uproar over that? Because we know that, relative to the vast number of car rides that happen every day constantly, it's negligible."
            
            I would have to disagree with that statement.  The reason there isn't a bigger uproar is that we want cars, or at least the vast majority of Americans do. 
            
            An awful lot of Americans don't want other people to have guns, so the uproar is not so easily ignored.  If a majority of the people didn't want cars in the country, you would find a huge uproar to begin the process of getting rid of all cars.  Limit them physically to 40 MPH, impose additional restrictions, limit them to a 2 person capacity, etc.  Just like guns, you would find ever increasing pressure to outlaw them.

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               secularist10posted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I doubt that. People see cars every day, and they use cars every day, so they understand on some level that cars are not that dangerous, on a proportional basis.
               
               Cars are built to transport. Transportation contributes to economic activity, leisure, job creation, creativity, and countless other social goods. Guns are built to kill. Killing contributes nothing to humanity, in fact it takes away from humanity (except in the rare instance of self defense).

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                  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I stand behind what I said.  If the majority of citizens hated cars as much as guns are hated we would seen a growing list of reasons to outlaw cars.  It's the way people seem to be made; if I don't like it you can't have it.
                  
                  Cars pollute
                  cars use valuable petroleum resources
                  cars are dangerous and cause deaths
                  drunks use cars to kill with
                  the energy to build cars could be used better elsewhere
                  cars allow criminals to escape
                  cars require massive expenditures in roads
                  roads destroy the landscape.
                  
                  The list of reasons goes on forever, and doesn't need to be true or to make sense to be used as a reason to outlaw cars.  Any more than the idea that guns kill people is used to outlaw guns.  They are usually an excuse, not a reason

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                     secularist10posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     So you don't think people think rationally about the good of society overall? Everything they believe just comes down to what they want for themselves?

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                  SmartAndFunposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, I think the intended use of the object definitely comes into play, as does a person's control over their own life and the situations they put themselves in. Pools are intended to be used for recreation, exercise and cooling off in hot weather. Deaths that occur are in pools are accidental or negligent at worst, with the rare exception of someone drowning another intentionally. Pools are not murder weapons. Pools cannot be hidden under an overcoat, snuck into a crowded building and used to intentionally murder a large number of people within minutes.
                  
                  If I choose to allow my child to swim in a pool, it is up to me to be responsible and watch him like a hawk so that he does not drown, make sure that he has learned to swim well, has safety equipment, etc. I have a certain level of control over the situation. However, when it comes to a deranged individual with an assault rifle, someone can murder my child even though I am right there with him being a responisble parent, and even though I have not put him in a statistically dangerous situation, such as at school. Murderers with assault rifles take away any control that we have over our own lives and the young lives we are responsble for. Pools do not.

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                     secularist10posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Very well said.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago

   Do the benefits outweigh the disadvantages? In both cases, yes. And both cases need lifeguards.

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   ftclickposted 11 years ago

   Nope. Just add more laws for both. You are giving more fuel to "Lawyers" to drum up some laws that pass in the middle of the night in local municipalities.

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      Castlepalomaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      We better include floods, floods is the leading cause of natural death.
      
      Lets get rid of doctors, cars and worst of all supermarkets, just to be on the safe side.

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