Alien Health

1. 59

   tksenseiposted 14 years ago

   All the BS the pols are selling aside, how (do you think) will any health care reform that may actually happen deal with the issue of illegal immigrants?

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   Nelle Hoxieposted 14 years ago

   Keeping everyone healthy is in YOUR best interest. Sometimes a person might just want every illegal to get booted out of the US. But that's not going to happen.
   
   If you don't keep this HUGE population healthy. You are going to see a rapid rise in infectious disease, for which there may not be the appropriate antibiotic. Illegal alien children go to school with legal American children. You need to keep the whole population healthy.
   
   We also are served food by illegal aliens and come in contact with them every day.
   
   I happen to think extending healthcare to EVERYONE regardless of status is the right thing to do. But even if it bothers you, realize that it is in your own self interest.
   
   (I am also for slamming the borders shut. But that probably won't happen either.)

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      Jane@CMposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with Nelle on keeping everyone healthy.
      
      As far as immunizations go...there are so many American parents who are "conscientious objectors" that you really don't know who's kid is immunized and who's kid is not.

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   2. 67

      mkottposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Agree.  It would be nice to only give healthcare to US citizens only.  But in the real world we do have a very large influx of illegals.  Also take into consideration how much is spent for care of these people once they get really sick.  Better to be proactive on preventive medical care. 
      
      Number of illegals in US, between 12 and 20 million.

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      1. 87

         livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         There is a huge group of people you are leaving out: legal immigrants.

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3. 76

   frogdroppingposted 14 years ago

   USA? Can't say. However in the UK well - I think they've already got that one sorted and in the bag

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      Nelle Hoxieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      What about healthcare in Portugal?

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      1. 76

         frogdroppingposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Well Nelle, here I'm classed as an immigrant. But ... let's just say that I hope I don't get ill.
         
         Can't blame the country as a whole, they've only been pulling the health system up by it's socks since about the mid-seventies.
         
         The health care is good. But - it's more stretched than I'm used to and it's getting it. I'm used to visiting a doctor when I'm ill - not three or four months later when I'm not.
         
         In fact I still haven't been able to register with a doctor since I came here.
         
         I need blood tests every few months - haven't bothered since I came. Plus I buy my medication over the counter, when I know it's illegal to do so.
         
         But - they sell it to me, I need a doctor and don't have one - and I really need the tablets. So ... it's a long way to go before it's ready to be called a health system, IMO.
         
         The guys here are used to it and just get on with it. Maybe I'm just expecting too much

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   zampanoposted 14 years ago

   surprised you ask that question. But anyway helth concerns everyone wherever you are.
   
   You'll have some answers here :
   http://www.euro.who.int/document/chh/por_highlights.pdf
   (2004 file, but still actual)
   
   about healthcare in France :
   http://www.discoverfrance.net/France/DF … care.shtml
   (1997)
   you're going to love it.
   We don't know how long it's going to last in this actual form
   but the equality principle is worth defending.
   
   Have a nice evening

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5. 0

   Nelle Hoxieposted 14 years ago

   So is health care provided at the same level in all the EU countries?

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6. 0

   zampanoposted 14 years ago

   not at all.
   EU is politically relatively recent.
   all states don't have the same level of wealth and development.
   the "best" health regime is the french one.
   then you have good chances of being taken care of in case you have trouble, without anyone asking for your credit card
   in northern countries and germany.
   Portugal and Spain are in the meanways.
   in Eastern europe health system is well behind.
   it will take a long time to level all this
   in UK I don't know...

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7. 67

   arthritickneeposted 14 years ago

   The UK has been addressing the issue of "Health Tourism" i.e. travelling to Britain specifically to receive free medical treatment on their National Health system.
   
   London hospitals have an employee whose job is to check the credentials of patients and charge them for health care costs.
   
   The UK has reciprocal agreements with european countries and some commonwealth countries such as Australia that allow their citizens free health care.
   Others have to pay

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      Nelle Hoxieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      The more I listen to you guys from the UK and European countries, national health care make so much sense. It's all so civilized.

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      1. 76

         frogdroppingposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Nelle - the really weird thing about health care in the UK is ... when you're ill, you get to see your doctor.
         
         Note 'your' and 'doctor'.
         
         Now isn't that a really cool trick

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         sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Oh no............

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   Nelle Hoxieposted 14 years ago

   You can get the percentage of immunized children by zip code. I just can't remember where. We actually used it when we were deciding where to live. There were really high pockets of non-immunized children in the Pacific Northwest.
   
   That lowers what my husband calls the "herd immunity." If a bad infectious illness hits, you want to be in a place with good herd immunity.

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9. 0

   pgrundyposted 14 years ago

   Illegal immigrants are treated in emergency rooms now, and the cost is passed on to insured persons and to the corporations that subsidize employee insurance in the form of increased premiums and increased prices for services. So we're already paying for their care.
   
   If employers had to offer fair wages and were busted when they hired illegals (instead of busting the illegals), it wouldn't be such an issue. Most employers only hire illegals because they can underpay and exploit them, and the government kind of looks the other way.
   
   Also I agree that there is a public health issue. People will come to the U.S. illegally whether we keep them healthy or not. All it will take is one horrible virus brought in by illegals who were denied treatment and it will bite us all in the butt big time.

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      zampanoposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      civilized europeans may be, this kind of situation is also common in europe

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10. 0

    zampanoposted 14 years ago

    frogdropping made a very goog live description.
    I'm portuguese and french.
    I've always lived as if I was at home in all latin countries
    in europe.
    in some few germanic too
    
    as far as I'm concerned I don't WANT to see people starving, suffering, ill
    in any country.
    I want my children and my fellow citizens ones having free access to health care and fine schools.
    I want them to grow healthy and instructed.
    And I'm willing to pay for it.
    For there's a high cost to this.

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    1. 0

       Nelle Hoxieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       In the US we are willing to pay billions for bombers and submarines the military doesn't even want with merely a quibble. But boy talk about billions for health care and so many of us balk.
       
       But I think it is worth it. I should've been a Parisian I think sometimes.

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11. 0

    Nelle Hoxieposted 14 years ago

    I gotta admit though, I've had to see a bunch of doctors lately and in Massachusetts I've seen fantastic doctors within 10 miles of home, within 24 hours. Within a week I had a bunch of tests. Need to have a couple of more on Sept 14. (So far everyone thinks the big C is only a remote possibility, but we've got to make sure.)
    
    But because I've got good insurance in a region known for excellent health care options this system is fantastic. And I know I've gotten some of the best evaluations in the world. But in the US insurance is such a big IF.
    
    I do worry for people who don't have what I have.

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12. 0

    zampanoposted 14 years ago

    wel, US is a much bigger country that plays much bigger roles in this world.
    That sure costs money...
    
    When you hear people talking about these matters over here,
    the debate is almost the same :
    never enough money for health and education.
    
    Anyway, Education is the most important state budget, before
    the military.

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13. 0

    zampanoposted 14 years ago

    All this health system is very nice and shows the level of civilisation that a country has or has not attained.
    But there is one more "information" I'd like to add :
    
    in 2008, the social security budget deficit in France
    has been digged down to around 17 billion US dollars !!!
    And we don't know untill what generation in the future
    we well be in debt.
    This does not mean that a social health system for all at low cost is impossible, but it makes one wonder ...

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14. 60

    jayhewittposted 14 years ago

    Listen we can have better health care its easier to do then it is to talk about it seems, or at least our political system makes it that tough. People don't want illegal immigrants to get covered, but they already do when they go to the Emergency room and you pay for it, so why not fix health care so its cheaper and you don't have to foot such a high bill! O and P.S. Your and immigrant too, unless the gall from "I dream of genie" Just poofed your family here . Tax Soda, you wont notice that horrible 10 Cents after a month and you will go back to chugging your Mt.Dew and hey now you can take that money they taxed you to go get your Diabetes treatment because you cant take care of your self Lower cost:
    Regulation of Mal practice
    Tax on Soda
    Preventive care
    Tax those makeweight more than 250k a year
    Make insurance companies compete
    Alow you to buy insurance from anywhere
    Computerize records
    Add green renewable energy to every building
    Cut wasteful spending
    
    That simple

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    1. 0

       Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Smart guy, .

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       sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       You think too much!

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       cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       actually, i heard last night on the news that they were thinking about imposing a 2-cent tax on every can of soda, since it is considered unhealthy, and they are going to tax it in the same way they tax cigarettes.

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15. 67

    lmmartinposted 14 years ago

    You've all hit on some very good points here: everyone -- citizens, immigrants -- legal and illegal, tourists even those just passing through -- all are potential carriers of pestilence and disease and it is in all our best  intersts to keep everyone healthy.
    
    But there is a bigger picture: the sense of what is right. Does anyone deserve to go without care because of their status in society? And the children -- should any child be needlessly ill, because his parents lack resources or legality?
    
    Those that lack resources are unlikely to seek assistance until they are severely ill, with the resulting care costing more.
    
    The biggest factor in determining the value of universal health care is the preventative factor. When everyone is at their optimal health, epidemics and pandemics become that much more unlikely. And should they arise, the death rate, not to mention the critical care rate lowers.
    
    Like it or not, we are our brother's keepers, no matter where that brother was born. Perhaps we need to stop cost-accounting on a unit basis and look at an overall "keeping society healthy" cost.

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       A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       How very caring of you

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       sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       As long as everyone pays their fair share. No freebies! If our churches and charities want to help off-set costs, Great! People who don't pay their fare share may not be my favorite charity and I'd like to choose who I give my money to.

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          A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          You will get to choose, the government or the government.

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             lmmartinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Don't you think that those who don't pay their fair share, would  if they had a way to do so? I think you've forgotten, or perhaps have never known what desperation is. We are a society, not just a group of individuals and we don't get to say where our money goes. Personally, I'd rather my money went to pay to heal someone than to buy a rocket that killed someone. But hey! I don't get to choose.

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             lmmartinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Don't you think that those who don't pay their fair share, would  if they had a way to do so? I think you've forgotten, or perhaps have never known what desperation is. We are a society, not just a group of individuals and we don't get to say where our money goes. Personally, I'd rather my money went to pay to heal someone than to buy a rocket that killed someone. But hey! I don't get to choose.

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                Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                You do. You (as a nation) just forfeited your right to choose for the illusion of safety.

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                sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I don't want to pay for abortions and STDs. I don't think you know me so I know you don't have any idea what my experiences are. No one ever bailed me out of anything, I've had plenty of doors slamed in my face. I never quit! Now I want you to explain why I should pay for the people in the projects who have never worked a day in their lives. What makes them so deserving? Hard working Americans, Americans, Americans should have health care, I'm for that 100%! I don't want to pay for immoral behavior. If I break a rule and get caught it's my baby not the mean people who won't help me.

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             lmmartinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Don't you think that those who don't pay their fair share, would  if they had a way to do so? I think you've forgotten, or perhaps have never known what desperation is. We are a society, not just a group of individuals and we don't get to say where our money goes. Personally, I'd rather my money went to pay to heal someone than to buy a rocket that killed someone. But hey! I don't get to choose.

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       ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       How do you know the people you put  in charge of such a system will make the right decisions?  Your concept of what is right probably differs from what I consider right.  How do you reconcile the two using a government bureaucracy?  Since when does a one size fits all prescription work for everyone?  Isn't is more important to ensure that people have access to healthcare, rather than simply paying the costs of healthcare.  Perhaps we should look at why healthcare costs are increasing and see if there are any rational ways to decrease those costs.  Like it or not, you can't legislate morality.

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    I agree Misha. Americans can vote. They can lobby and make changes at least in theory.
    The trouble is that every change is opposed by some uncaring self satisfied group of extremists.

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    Mishaposted 14 years ago

    Democracy, Sir

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    zampanoposted 14 years ago

    You don't.
    You just vote your best and wish intensely they behave as good managers and don't jeopardize your money.
    
    That is :
    
    Taxes collected (labour, coke cans, cigarrettes, etc) really go to health budget and not employed to stuff some hole somewhere else.
    People don't go on same checkup twice the same year. They aren't fed tons of medics, which means
    that political managers refrain pharmaceutical labs appetite, that doctors are deeply
    concerned with savings and don't depend on bonus from labs marketing machines...
    etc, etc, etc...
    Generally it comes to resolve our system's deep contradictions, which looks like a job for Ulysses
    It's hard but achievable without being ruinous to the community.
    And it is so nice when you don't need it...
    but you know it is there and you are a part of it
    and that you won't be let down whatever expensive illness
    you and your children may be exposed to.
    (actually this is what I think when I look at my payslip with those 15 lines that detail taxes I'm paying)

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    ledefensetechposted 14 years ago

    You have an awful lot of faith in what amounts to organized Mafioso tactics.  I don't.  I've worked in the government.  I've seen firsthand how unfair and biased the system is when providing services to the mentally ill.  If they treat the least among us to poorly, how do you think they're going to treat the rest of us?
    
    The answer is really simple.  I've written a couple of hubs about it.  Check them out.

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    zampanoposted 14 years ago

    Of course I'll have a good reading of your hubs.
    It's not a matter of faith.
    It's a matter of choice.
    I don't have the choice.
    But I still agree with contributing. I just don't agree with
    many sides of the system's management (as a lot of people also disagree)
    In europe we are used to drag financial ball and chains.
    In an objective manner, we realise the results of health politics.
    Some of them are so positive that we don't argue about it's existence,
    just ways to reform it.
    
    After I said all this, I must pay a tribute to
    sneakorocksolid's honesty. I'm sure that a lot of
    people would speak same way if choice was given to them.
    many people are afraid of being called reactionary.
    
    But these times tend to more sharing.
    And we are not going to start a war about sharing.
    Maybe the contrary would.

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