Curious as to what people who are against everyone having healthcare think should be done for those who really can't afford healthcare. What are the other options? Continue down the same road we are on now?
I'm not against it for those who truly can't afford it; I'm against subsidizing it for those who could afford it if they chose to pay for it instead of other crap that they don't need. And believe me, there are plenty of them.
But is there a way of weeding out who is who? If not are we stuck just letting those in need suffer to punish the others?
They already qualify for Medicaid so how are they suffering? This whole thing was about forcing EVERYONE to have insurance, not just the poor. Plenty of people who could have insurance just choose not to buy it for many reasons. Maybe they live in a small town in the mountains and only go to the doctor when they feel like it. Maybe they don't live anywhere near a doctor and never get sick. Some people just don't go to doctors and don't need to. Not everyone is unhealthy. So now all of those folks will be buying something they may never need just so that Obama can feel good about himslef and have a 'legacy'. Worth it? If you're a drug company, yes, because prescriptions are about to explode.
Do you realize that unless you are disabled or pregnant you can't get medicaid over the age of 21 except for birth conrol no matter how low your income is (atleast in SC)? I have a family of 5. We make decent enough money to pay our bills. We have always paid out of pocket for medical expenses. However a few months ago my daughter had a serious allergic reaction. We simply could not afford the specialist they needed her to see (after draining our medical savings on her hospital care). Health insurance would run us upwards of $900 a month, which is more than our house payment. Yet when we attempted to get any form of assistance there was none there. So an entire section of the population who don't qualify for assistance yet can't afford healthcare.
I agree. The cost of insurance is way too high for many families. It is not about not wanting to pay or spending money on other things. People living paycheck to paycheck cannot afford the cost of overpriced insurance policies. I think everyone should have access to healthcare. It needs to be affordable for everyone.
RG, that is exactly what ACA is offering.
The opportunity to BUY IT.
It is not true that everyone will get "FREE" coverage under Obamacare.
You can keep making that claim, but I am going to continue to correct you.
And to all who are dead set against Obamacare who have insurance through their employers, you don't know how lucky you are. And since it doesn't affect you, why would you deny others something that you take for granted as a given?
You have NO IDEA how impossible it is to purchase health insurance as an individual -- even if you are able and willing to pay for it -- if you have a preexisting condition.
And you would be very, very shocked to see all the preexisting conditions that can disqualify you from coverage. It's pretty scary, really.
Thanks to Obamacare, that is no longer going to be a problem.
"Do what the rest of us have done..."
By "the rest of us" you don't mean that proverbial 47%. You see, the Reps are also telling us we should save up for our own retirement. So what happens to the retirement nest egg when sickness or disability raises its ugly head? Before Franklin introduced the New Deal, Americans simply died from sickness or worked themselves into the grave because all their retirement savings had gone to doctors.
Anyone who gets their health insurance through their employer is essentially getting it subsidized now!!
Yes, but the subsidy is paid by the employer, not the taxpayer.
Yes, it's a voluntary subsidy, not a coercive one.
How odd that the same folks who say getting rid of unions and giving employers tax breaks will lower unemployment, but out of the other side of their mouths they say employers should pay for health insurance. Isn't that sort of defeating your own purpose?
What do you say to the woman who lost her health insurance when she lost her job?
I don't think employers should be forced to pay for it; I was simply pointing out that the current subsidy for health insurance is being paid by the employer, but under Obamacare it will be paid by the taxpayer for those whose employer isn't providing or for those who have no employer. I would rather everyone be able to buy private plans at low rates, but that's not what is going to be accomplished under the new law.
Probably not. I wish someone could come up with a law that will fix the whole problem unequivocally in a way that will make everyone happy.
Does the president have control over the cost of private health insurance? If not, would he be wise to draft a plan that depends on something over which he has no control?
Well supposedly there are going to be caps eventually, which I don't think can possibly work. How can you control how much a private company charges for something and then still have quality care? You can't. This is part of the reason so many people objected to this whole plan. It wasn't racism, and it wasn't hatred, it was just plain common sense. It can't possibly work, and in the meantime the problem persists and costs go up for all of us. A big waste.
A lot of what you are saying is based on projections about what Obamacare might lead to. Based on that, I'm not ready to say the whole thing is a waste. There's a lot more to it than what we have discussed.
I've enjoyed talking with you and with the others. I must prepare to retire for the evening and resume this discussion tomorrow, if the good lord is willing and the creeks don't rise.
That employer "subsidy" will soon be counted toward income and then you'll be taxed on it.
We can't pay for two entire industries. If you want healthcare for all - kick the insurance industry to the curb and we'll cut the cost in half.
But this plan is ridiculous.
It's ridiculous because the insurance industry and the drug companies are running everything now. I'm sure you actually believe the that costs are going down, even though it's not at all realistic to think that covering more people who aren't paying wil be cheaper for all of us in the end. Where exactly do you think the costs for those people is going to be paid from? It comes in the form of higher premiums for the rest of us. I know, you just don't believe it. Common sense is so rare these days...
The insurance and drug companies are running everything so that means Obama's plan is ridiculous. I think what we have here is known as a non sequitur.
I'll be sure to pass along your insult to the presidents of the health systems in my region, the hospital directors, the doctors, the clinic heads, and especially to Congresswoman Doris Matsui, who just won reelection here.
They have been hard at work for two years now getting ready for ACA implementation.
I will suggest they abandon their efforts immediately and tune in for further instruction from Rush Limbaugh.
Sound like a common sense plan to you?
MM, we've been down this road before. They're just starting to release the regulations for setting up pools, all the medi-folks in your area may well have been spinning their wheels.
This plan has some big fiscal problems, and denying them won't make them go away.
So far I haven't heard from anyone who can say what those problems are. I've heard conjectures about what might happen and what the plan might lead to. Just spectral scenarios built from pre canned fears. That's not the same as a convincing argument.
We have insurance pools up and running in some states.
I got my husband on in California.
My son is applying in Colorado.
The med-folks in my region determined before the SCOTUS decision that they HAD to go forward with changes to our health care system with or without Obamacare. The system is so broken it cannot continue as it is.
Obamacare just makes the fixes easier and gives them some $ to do what they need to do.
My daughter had preexisting conditions that had 10 years of work with her to help her deal with them. Her employer got the insurance plan he wanted for them. None of her doctors or any Rx were covered. It was so expensive she couldn't afford her doctors and medication and the insurance so she dropped her insurance. How did Pres. Obama help by requiring her employer to provide insurance or hit her with a fine for not having any?
We don't have an answer, but passing a bill no one could or would discuss was not the answer either. We need to have a hard look at what we like about the present bill. So far all the bill has done is cause our company to up our costs and drop our coverage so we are forced to do without or pay more out of pocket.
The only thing that will help is get the majority of the unemployed off welfare and back to work. We have people leaving the service and school without any job skills or ideas of where to get help. Let's fix one thing before we start expecting people to shell out money for something new that we can't afford.
People thought Romney was out of touch with the people because of his wealth. Guess what, so are the people in Washington, D.C. The make over $200,000 a year but don't pay taxes on it. They buy fancy jets to carry all the people they want around with them. We pay for it. They have and insurance coverage they like so they are allowed to refuse to hold themselves to the same insurance they demand the other people have. What is fair about that? How does that make ObamaCare a good thing for the American people?
There are millions of people on the road, even as I type, who have been driving for years and never had an accident. What a shameful waste that they are forced to buy car insurance they don't need. Yes, it is the same as buying health insurance.
When I was three years old, I thought if the houses and trees weren't in my way, I'd be able to see around the world. 26 years later, a doctor suggested I get a white cane. I didn't grow up knowing I'd one day be legally blind. Insurance is something you don't need until you need it, but by then you can't get it for a pre-existing condition.
You're so right in your analogy. I'm sorry to hear about your blindness, it's something that always breaks my heart to hear. I don't understand though why the plans people are being forced to buy in another year or so can't be more like major medical plans rather than the type that make people go for all kinds of crap they probably don't always need. It seems more of a payoff to the drug and insurance community than anything to me. Why not plans that cover something that can't be predicted, like blindness, rather than plans that micromanage people's lives? The costs people are always complaining about, the ones that put people into bankruptcy, are the major ones like cancer or something similar. Or possible an accident or injury that takes a lot of care. So why not major medical type plans? Some people just aren't going to want to be forced to go to the doctor regularly, as I'm sure is going to eventually be required. Some plans already require it anyway...
I see your point and no, I would not like to be forced to go to a doctor. Fact is, right now my medicaid doesn't seem to let me go to a doctor. They give me a list of "health care providers" and none of them is a doctor. Just nurse practitioners. I don't want to bore you with a long string of horror stories. Suffice it to say, I decided not to go to any of them.
This didn't start with Obamacare. Something needs to be done. I just hope that now the people in Washington will stop the politricks and work together to find solutions that work for us? The United States is the only country in the free world that does not have universal health care. Are all those other countries paying for crap, while we alone have all the sense?
Yes, many countries have universal health care. They also pay incredibly high taxes to pay for it. And they wait in very long lines (figuratively) to see any provider. Don't let someone tell you otherwise...
"Simply saying that people have health insurance is meaningless. Many countries provide universal insurance but deny critical procedures to patients who need them. Britain's Department of Health reported in 2006 that at any given time, nearly 900,000 Britons are waiting for admission to National Health Service hospitals, and shortages force the cancellation of more than 50,000 operations each year. In Sweden, the wait for heart surgery can be as long as 25 weeks, and the average wait for hip replacement surgery is more than a year. Many of these individuals suffer chronic pain, and judging by the numbers, some will probably die awaiting treatment. In a 2005 ruling of the Canadian Supreme Court, Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin wrote that "access to a waiting list is not access to healthcare.""
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/com … 1638.story
It just doesn't appeal to me in any way.
As a Brit, I can assure you that it shouldn't appeal to you.
And that is what I have heard from every Brit I have ever met. Unfortunately a lot of Americans are completely ignorant to how it really works and they have a very rosy picture of this 'free' program that helps everyone.
Regular resident of Australia, New Zealand an Argentina all with complete universal healthcare all of them are great comparatively to the US, I wait for when I have business in Aus or NZ for any healthcare needs.
So if you're an American how are you taking advantage of other countries' universal healthcare systems? Or are you a citizen of all of those countries?
Speaking as a Brit I am glad we have a national health service. While it isn't perfect due to the population expanding and there are waiting lists for non life threatening operations. If I were in a serious accident I know I would be treated with the best possible care immediately. They wouldn't ask for my medical insurance or drain my life savings. For that reason I am truly grateful I live in the UK.
I have a family doctor, I make an appointment, I usually see him within 10 minutes of my appointment time. The only time I have had to wait for hours was at the hospital, where they take the most seriously injured people first or at a walk-in clinic where no one has an appointment. I got to choose my own doctor and the government has never once tried to interfere with my treatments or choices.
Our taxes are not as high as the conservatives who don't live here would want you to believe. There are not busloads of Canadians going to the US for treatment. Some rich people have gone to the US for elective surgery because they don't want to wait, or people who need treatments not available in Canada.
There are so many myths. The bottom line is. I have a broken fibula, I got treatment without having to worry where the money would come from.
I do not agree that buying auto insurance is the same as buying health insurance.
Mandatory auto insurance is liability insurance for the most part, so that if you cause someone else harm, they are compensated. And vice versa.
Of course some people do not obtain legally required auto insurance. Just as some will not obtain legally required health insurance. Especially when they realize the IRS can not effectively enforce the law. Unless you have a refund on your tax return.
Well I don't know.. Maybe we should all pay? Oh wait, jobs are completely gone, and everyone's' hours are cut, so no full time benefits. I went into a hospital the other day, someone got charged $1500 for a 1 minute visit from the doctor. A simple diagnosis of bronchitis.
They never loved us.
Universal health care is stupid. Not all people are created equal. We know this. Poor Timmy with cancer is sucking up all the money that is supposed to be allotted to the emergency room for the simple procedures. All you with colds, flus, sprains, aches, insomnia.. etc. You have to wait in line. Here are some cough drops and asprin. Sorry there is just too much demand, and not enough doctors and nurses. They are all currently enrolled in school on waiting lists that are two years long.
I drive an ambulance at a fire dept and we take so many patients to the hospital for the most minor things. We are required to take them if they want to go, and we have nothing to do with payment. Thus, people use the emergency room for stupid things that they could wait till the next day for and just go to Walgreens for some Advil. It's a waste of money, but you can't teach common sense.
What you guys describe reminds me of my grandparents, who died while they were on the waiting list for a retirement home. I always wondered, what are they waiting for? someone to move? Someone to doe?
I am more interested in a plan that helps people get insurance than one that just requires them to have insurance. Why can't we have universal coverage and still have the diversity and availability of actual health providers? Why is there this either/or situation?
Well part of the problem is also that there will be cuts to how much providers are paid by insurance/Medicare and Medicaid. This means that doctors will be making less for seeing more patients, since everyone will be able to go to the doctor with their new insurance. So, many would-be medical students are deciding to go into nursing or physician assistant programs instead. Less liability (gotta watch out for the trial attorneys!) and decent pay. There will be less doctors though. I really don't care, but some people prefer a doctor. Also, surgery can't be done by a PA!
We need not government assistance but homeopathic assistance. The teat of government is full of the formula. There is no substitute for natures natural cures. Sadly, people no longer trust anything that is not packaged, and FDA approved.
I used to feel that way, but have gotten more and more disgusted with the drug companies getting everyone onto their drugs for the littlest thing. I think one of the worst things that happened in the last few years was the drug companies being allowed to market on TV. It's all you see nowadays and it makes me sick. I know the doctors get their little payoff for prescribing the drugs too, but I wish it would stop.
Finally something upon which you and I fully agree.
Advertising pharmaceuticals should be illegal.
They are just as addictive as cigarettes, and sometimes kill people! Plus it's so irritating when I'm watching the news and every commercial is for a drug, mostly for stuff that people could probably just live with. Plus, think of the time wasted in doctors offices by people who go in to ask if some drug they saw on TV can help with such and such....
Well, medical marijuana just lost the election in our state. Now people with intractible pain are going to have to continue going to the pharmacy and buy (legal) cracked poppy.
It's pretty obvious who opposes medicann.
The same industry that wants all Americans dependent on their extended release toxins that dumb us down and turn us into drug-craving zombies.
If you're 60+ and not on at least 7 different prescriptions for high blood pressure, diabetes, high cholesterol, osteoarthritis, early alzheimbers, depression and anxiety (at minimum) there's something wrong with you and you're simply not American!
THere is organized and supremely well funded opposition to any/all attempts to get our citizens healthier, moving from a treatment model to a wellness model.
It's pretty depressing and disgusting once you start looking below the glossy surface.
Yes, like Chris Rock said, the money is in the treatment, not the cure. They want us to think we are living longer, but maybe we're just dying longer.
I hate it when I go to a doctor with a pain and he can't tell me what's wrong yet he still wants to prescribe something. I asked one dr. how he could do that and he told me he was just guessing.
I have not written about my son's ordeal with the western medical establishment between 2010 and 2011.
Suffice to say, their "guesses" all turned out to be wrong. But they sure did a lot of expensive CYA tests on him!
In the end, they said they could not help him because whatever he had did not require surgery!
They simply threw up their hands and declared they were out of ideas on the genesis of his pain. They loaded him up on powerful narcotics and anti-anxiety medications, but warned him he would need to get off them "at some point" because he would develop a tolerance for them and they would not be effective for him in the future if, for example, he got into a car accident.
They offered no suggestions or help on how he was supposed to manage his pain other than to tank himself up on morphine, norco, ativan and I forget what all else every day.
His story has a miraculous and happy next chapter. Which I do intend to write a hub about soon.
Right now, I still get so furious when I think about what he went through, that I can't think about it!
So I absolutely relate to what you are saying, Rhonda D Johnson.
Next time you have a pain, consider going to a naturopath or alternative provider instead. Acupuncture works wonders. Herbs are effective alternatives to pharmaceuticals.
Your son's story makes me want to go around here to this hospital and slap somebody. I'm so glad it turns out well and I look forward to reading your bub.
I live in a small town and we don't have a lot of alternative stuff here. Herbal tea sounds good. Mostly, I need to find something for post nasal drip that sends me into coughing fits. I hesitate to use some commercial spray they have out there.
Thanks. I'll try it. Can they be found in a regular grocery store I do I need to go to a health food store?
Definitely health food store. Better if you could find an acupunturist/herbalist to prescribe for you!
Amen, They have a pill for everything, keep us doped up, uneducated, poor, and we will follow anyone, right...I have severe arthritis in my lower back, they prescribe loritab and percoset, no thanks, I drink a lot water, work out and take tylenol if it hurts, now if it goes out I do go get a big shot in the hip, but otherwise, I refuse to be a legal drug addict...I am all about herbal remedies,etc.
This IS a plan that helps more people get insurance!!
More people eligible for Medicaid.
More people able to obtain coverage who were previously denied.
More young people able to stay covered on their parents' plan.
Tax credits to help people afford coverage.
If they simply said, "Ok, listen up, America. As of January 1, 2014 every one of you MUST buy health insurance -- go get it. Good luck!" without any providions to make sure Americans actually could GET health insurace, it wouldn't be much good.
But that's not the case.
I'll sponsor if you are serious. Just kidding. There is no WAY we can make a dent in their advertising schemes. It's like David and Goliath. They give us false hope.
From what I've read, the whole idea of a government based healthcare system with people waiting in long lines for limited healthcare is based on a myth. The law does not take the responsibility for healthcare away from employers but actually makes it easier for them.
"One independent group actually called this myth the “lie of the year.” The Affordable Care Act puts people, not health insurance companies or government, in charge of health care. The new law strengthens the existing employer-based health insurance market while making the market fair for consumers by implementing landmark consumer protections. Families and individuals that don't have access to affordable coverage can receive tax credits to help them purchase coverage in the private health insurance market. There is no government-sponsored, public, or "single payer" plan in the law."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/healthreform/ … hcare-menu
While at the same time holding insurance companies accountable for waste and fraud. Why do we fear holding capitalists accountable? Wall Street and the Housing industry showed us the dire consequences when they are given free reign to do everything to us that we fear the government will do.
I think the American church is carrying God's money in a leaky bucket. Instead of sitting on gilded thrones, building "Majesty Buildings", and flying around in ministry jets, there should be plenty of medical service for everyone.
Unfortunately, the American Church stands at the vanguard of the battle against aide for everyone.
What baffles me is that while we supposedly don't have enough to go around for our own poor, no one questions the aide we send to other countries.
The concept of ObamaCare is right up front...."The Affordable Healthcare Act"....the title states what one should believe. For many, that sounds like "free" and because the government is willing to make it free if you can quality, then all the more reason that it is free and all the more reason to look for ways to game the system and get it for free. The key word here is free. But as KK Trainor points out, it is not free for most folks and it certainly will not be any cheaper than what most of them are currently experiencing. With a few calculations, one can easily see at least $500 billion dollars in costs that will have to be absorbed by those who can pay. Throughout the recent election campaign, over and over, we heard ObamaCare compared to the model....the Massachussetts Healthcare Plan. If that is the case, why does ObamaCare require 2000+ pages to define and explain and the model is only a 70 page document? In fact, please point to anyone who can explain ObamaCare prior to its implementation. "Pre-Existing Conditions" can be addressed with a bit of insurance industry regulation by the federal government...it certainly does not require the government to take over the entire process to achieve. In doing so, we undermine the medical industry in many ways and still give it no relief in terms of tort reform and litigation. Healthcare is expensive due in many ways to tort yet those who tell you that they are reforming it are the same lawyers who do not want any tort reforms. The foxes are counting the chickens and keeping the books. Ask the folks on Medicare who will see their monthy premiums double in 2014 due to the imposition of ObamaCare how that "affordable healthcare" is working. Oh, and be sure you ask them quickly as many will not be around after they have been denied the services prescribed by their doctor because they are just getting on in years. If we can let the older ones die, our premiums will go down. ~WB
If the Massachusetts model was so great, loo ks like the folks in that state would have supported their own governor in the presidential elections. Apparently they thought Obama was doing a better job.
The Massachusetts model is successful. That's the crazy thing!
But the architect of the plan (Romney) disowned it. Or, more likely, was forced by his party to disown it.
So by supporting their governor, the people of Massachusetts would be saying his plan was a failure.
He sort of put them in a double-bind on that one issue.
But from what I've heard (many college classmates still live in MA), the good people of the Commonwealth had other reasons not to support Romney.
Of course, all my college classmates live in binders. so what do they know?
That's interesting. But if the Reps disowned the MA model, why are they in here attacking Obama's plan?
The Republicans do not want anything remotely related to government run, government sponsored or government anything healthcare.
They want the insurance companies to have free reign to compete. The believe that more competition-- across state lines -- will bring the cost of healthcare down.
There is nothing in this country that free enterprise, unbridled capitalism, can't fix.
Don't you know!
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