Censorship Why?

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   Poppa Bluesposted 14 years ago

   Okay I get it, it's your site so you make the rules, but nothing stifles creativity more than censorship. I suppose there are other sites where one is free to express themselves and maybe one day, I'll find one. I just think that the marketplace will self regulate content a lot better than a "moderator" will. Offensive or other content not worthy of existence will fall to the bottom of the pile to be forgotten and eventually discarded.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      LOL
      
      So - you are a socialist after all.
      
      

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         Poppa Bluesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         How is that socialist? It's democratic. Socialism is having the administrator decide what gets published and making sure that everyone has publishes equal amount. I guess that explains why you enjoy a favorable view of socialism, you don't quite know what it is.

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            donotfearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            
            

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      Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Poppa Blues, it appears that it IS the marketplace that is censoring us. Google is the monetary force that sets the standards and also lets us earn. I'm looking around for an alternative to Google for other content that I might want to publish that does not meet Google's standards, and it's slim pickings.
      
      One can also publish without monetizing at all, but the truth is that the money and the traffic go together. Google has no incentive to point searchers toward a site that Google does not stand to profit from.

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         Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         If you give it a thought, you will see that it has, in the long run. But then other things equal, site monetized with google probably is likely to win.
         
         BTW a small tip - if you want your brand spanking new site to be indexed fast by Google, put Adsense on it

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            Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Exactly! But when they tell me that my new site violates their TOS, not only do I not get Adsense, I also don't get indexed!

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      2. STAFF

         pauldeedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Google has some power to push back, I suppose, but the real source of those standards are the advertisers themselves and by extension the people to whom the advertisements are aimed.   The larger they are and the more an advertiser pays for a spot, the greater assurance they typically will want that their brand will not be sullied by controversial content.

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2. 71

   AEvansposted 14 years ago

   Poppa Blues,
   
   You are talented and I realize you are venting, but they have to moderate. HP does not go from Hub to Hub asking for hubbers to remove there content. It is writers on HP who fall across the hubs that cause them to be flagged where they have to either be edited or removed. HP does allow writers to be expressive but when we signed-up we had to abide by this sites rules. Your existence is a blessing and your creativity is highly-respected on HP don't let censorship get you down if everyone behaved on HP not wishing to flag everything they read , reading only what they liked then Maddie would not have this complicated job. She is only doing what she has to do and that is enforcing the rules because all of us sometimes forget what the rules truly are. Hang in there you are a very expressive writer and we honestly love having you here.

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      Poppa Bluesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Well thanks for the kind words and the vote of confidence. I really do appreciate it. I only ask if you're going to establish guidelines at least make them objective and not subjective, otherwise there's no way to know if what you're writing is acceptable or not. And, be consistent, don't react to every complaint without at least verifying that the rules have been broken. I know it's easier to just unpublish everything that someone complains about then it is to have to read everything that everyone complains about and then decide if the rules are broken, but that's the downside to censorship, having to have to be the enforcer.

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         AEvansposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Duly noted words are well taken , I am glad that you have decided to continue on with hubpages. (((Big Hugs)))

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         Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Can you explain what's subjective about the rules?  In my experience, most of the people who complain about rules being subjective, haven't taken the trouble to learn about them.
         
         
         
         
         They don't. Generally they don't unpublish until they've checked the Hub.  The exception is if they check two or three Hubs by one Hubber and find they all break the rules - then they'll unpublish the lot until they've had time to check them.

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            Website Examinerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            The OP has left HubPages.

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3. 62

   Greek Oneposted 14 years ago

   I think you should post pictures of woman wearing less and less clothing until we find a pic that crosses the line.
   
   At least then we will be in a better position to know what is acceptable

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      Norah Caseyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Our adult standards have recently become stricter, in accordance with Google's Adsense policy. You can try to do that, but I can't guarantee that it won't result in a forum ban.
      
      We only moderate around 30% of the hubs that are flagged (our automated system takes down the most obvious offenders). I don't have reliable numbers for forum posts, but I would imagine the vast majority of what we come across on the forums are basic spam. So, we do verify that rules have been broken before we take down something. If we took down everything that was flagged, I would imagine HubPages would be fairly dull and empty.
      
      It is easy for us to verify that rules have been broken, and we never base a moderating decision solely on a hubber's flag. If you disagree with a decision we have made, you can contact us.

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         Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         .. to clarify, I was kinda hoping that Poppa Blues would be the one posting the pictures and risk getting banned lol

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   Uninvited Writerposted 14 years ago

   Blame AdSense, if it is not accepted by them, it is not accepted by HubPages.

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      Maddie Ruudposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Excellent summary.

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   bwjnreevesposted 14 years ago

   Can you really make money on hubpages and how? Thanks

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      Website Examinerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You could post your questions in the appropriate forum thread, for a start.

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         bwjnreevesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Im new got direction?

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            Uninvited Writerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Visit this area:
            
            http://learningcenter.hubpages.com/

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               bwjnreevesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Thanks

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6. 84

   Aya Katzposted 14 years ago

   What advertisers think the general public will want, and what the general public actually wants, may be two different things entirely. This issue used to regularly come up on TV when soap companies paid for soap operas. The soap purveyors wanted the content "clean" but the viewers didn't.
   
   BTW, did Poppa Blues close his account because he was concerned over censorship?

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   Aya Katzposted 13 years ago

   I've written a hub about censorship. I've disabled the ads to it, because the first ads to pop up were about "forbidden" topics. I'm really confused, though. If Google doesn't like ads about forbidden topics, why do they run them?

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      Michael Willisposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      lol, good point!!! Maybe they don't want to share the revenue they get from them.

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         Aya Katzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Michael, something like that did occur to me with my hub that got banned from Adsense. It was my highest earner at the time when it happened. But... they disabled the ads, so how did this help them? Didn't they cut off their own earnings, too?

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            Michael Willisposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I just read what you said about Google placing the "forbidden ads" on your hub. It makes no sense for Google to use these ads and forbid others from using them. (or in others words...others sharing in the profit Google makes.) Sounds more like Do as I say, not as I do.
            If Google does not want the "Forbidden Topics" used by us...then Google should not Place those Ads on our Hubs.
            I guess I have been lucky so far as to not have a forbidden ad show up. I know when I have seen questionable ads I will rework text capsule titles and tags to see a change in the ads.

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               Aya Katzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Yes, it does seem two-faced. The irony in my case is that I did not write anything risque or forbidden, but the Google robots interpreted it that way.

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   yoshi97posted 13 years ago

   Ditto to what Paul said. It's the advertisers that drive Google, and Google in turn drives us.
   
   Many big advertisers won't have their ads placed on a site that would make them look like they promote something they never would. For instance, if you were advertising with a pro life banner and you were paying $8 a click, would you want your ads on hubs about abortion?
   
   These are the probalems Google faces, and the simple solution is to provide guidelines to the publishers and then assure the advertisers that those guidelines will be followed.
   
   Each time the advertisers tighten a beltloop Google has a choice of following the lead or seeing the advertising dollars go away. And if Google loses their money then so do we.
   
   Would it be far better to all write uncensored and make $.05 a day or would it be better to hold our steps in line and prosper to $50 or more? While not everyone here writes for money, would it be fair to allow those who don't to kill the possible profits of those who do?
   
   There are tons of internet sites that allow a writer to express themseves with zero censorship ... these sites also offer no profit. Why? Because large advertisers don't want to associate with this kind of material so as to keep their image pure.
   
   Of course, there is the exception of the adult market, but these companies already have lucrative agreements that X article writers out of the loop. They don't need to pay us to sell their stuff ... sex sells, with very little provocation among users.
   
   The solution is a simple one. for all non-objectionable material, place it here. For all material that is known to be objectionable, post it elsewhere and post a link in your profile showing people where to go to read this extension of your content. There is no rule at HP against this and it resolves the issue totally.
   
   There is certain material that Google will not pay you to write, so it makes no sense to post it on a site like this and to expect to get paid for it ... or to expect it to remain posted with no changes.
   
   It's not us versus HP ... it's us versus Google, which is inevitably us versus the advertisers. And I can tell you this ... big advertisers care not how we feel about censorship. For every man, wmoman, and child who screams 'freedom of speech' they retort with 'freedom to determine where they will place their ads and who they will pay for displaying them'
   
   To argue that the advertisers should bend to our will is to hold one's breath indefinitely, as there are always other sites willing to comply and earn the money we might refuse while touting our claim to not being censored. As such, we bite at the rope and silence ourselves, with the understnading that we all hate censorship, but we also hate not getting paid for all of our hard work.
   
   And let's not forget that it isn't censorship unless an activity is banned everywhere, and HP does not ban any member for placing objectionable material on a site that is not owned by HP. As such, anyone can build their own content offsite and do with it as they choose. Just don't place adsense on such a site, as they will pull your account.
   
   (is it just me, or is Paul looking younger these days?)

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      Aya Katzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, Paul is looking good these days!
      
      Yoshi, if you'll read my earlier posts and my hub on censorship, you'll see that I support Hubpages' right to censor our hubs and Google's right to limit our content, if we want to carry ads.
      
      What bothers me is that:
      
        * there is no recourse if they mistakenly decide we've violated the
          policies
        * when we publish without ads we often don't get indexed
        * there is no alternative so far for adsense
      
      I need to carry ads to get traffic. Forget about revenue. And why do they put dirty ads up when my content is clean?

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         Michael Willisposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Did you by chance receive any comments to a hub that could have been suggestive? This is why I monitor all comments. I don't want Google to ban my hubs because someone may leave a comment with words or phrases that could trigger an alert.

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            yoshi97posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Sadly the inevitable truth to it all is this ...
            
            If HP finds material they believe to be objectionable they will rip down your hub, leaving your Adsense account undisturbed.
            
            If Google finds material they believe to be objectionable they will tear away your Adsense account and keep whatever you already have in their bank.
            
            As such, HP is an excellent first line of defense against losing one's Adsense account.
            
            
            Also, it is a bit unfair that Google can display racy material whereas we can't, and I often wonder if they have issues where they have multiple ads on an article that might not blemd well with one another ... such as a pro gun ad versus one for banning guns.
            
            However, that's google's tail on the line - not ours - so it's not a battle we can fight and win. For us, all we can do is submit, or post objectionable material elsewhere.
            
            My purpose in this thread is not to stand up for Google, but rather, to stand up for HP, as they are proactively saving our bacon and it hurts me to see them kicked in the hind end for doing so. Would it be better if HP did nothing and allowed Google to ban member's accounts? I can assure you, given what I have read on the internet, once an Adsense account is gone it's nearly impossible to get it back and Google doesn't give warnings ... if you make a mistake they consider it the beginnign of a crime career and shut you down without any recourse.
            
            You don't get a re-do with Google, so I think we need to be thankful for the way HP looks out for us.

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            Aya Katzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I didn't receive any suggestive comments, although there were some that were spam and seemed to be marketing schemes or scams. I did not approve those, so they did not show to readers. However, I didn't delete them forever, either, in case I wanted to reconsider my decision.
            
            Do you happen to know what status unapproved comments have for purposes of content review by the Google robots?

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               Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Nobody sees them but you and HP staff. Google bot is not a member of HP staff.

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                  Aya Katzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Thanks, Misha. That's good to know!

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   spiritualityposted 13 years ago

   Well, I just got a hub deleted without warning that was clearly within adsense's policy for content, so I don't think it's about adsense at all. This really makes me even less inclined to put my main content on hubpages than I already was.
   
   I don't do adult. I'm not saying it was my best hub ever - it really wasn't very good. However it was also not spammy or anything like that.
   
   I'd advise anybody who has trouble with the content policy on hubpages to move over to squidoo, though they too have restrictions on content. But at least they're clear restrictions. Adult is no go, and so are some other topics.

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      KCC Big Countryposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You should write the HP staff to find out why rather than assuming.  Judging by your hubber score (77) you may have issues you need to address.  There are lots of things that violate the TOS besides adult content and spamming.
      
      I'll pass on Squidoo.

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      AEvansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      HP always gives someone time to correct there hub, I agree also with KCC contact the team directly and ask them why the hub was deleted. Was it duplicate or copied content from another site? If it was and you were not the writer the content can be deleted without warning. TOS is very clear on HP however many do not read the information. I am certain if you e-mail them they will straighten it all out and you will have a resolve. Squidoo does the same thing if it is duplicate or copied content you will find this site to be easier to work with then many others. Keep your head up and e-mail team@hubpages.com

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      Norah Caseyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I don't see the hub you are referring to. You had one that was moderated but then cleared after corrections were made several months ago. Do you have multiple accounts?

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    yoshi97posted 13 years ago

    Being overly promotional will also get your hub axed.
    
    I once had a hub popped down for over promotion and when I looked at the hub and the Google TOS ... well ... I was possibly seconds from getting my Adsense account banned, and I'm thankful to the team for axing the hub before Adsense axed my account.
    
    What most of you don't realize is that Google uses bots to travel your hubs and bots to determine what violates their TOS. This means you can't hide a violation from them forever. And when a Google bot says you did something bad there isn't usually a human committee giving that violation strong considerable thought.
    
    This being the case, it is far better to have your hubs groomed by humans ... humans you can ask, 'What did I do wrong' and humans who will allow you a chance to fix it.
    
    As an exercise, we should all google this: "google disabled my adsense". And when you do so you will be surprised at how quickly Adsense will disable your account ... and what exacly that means to your bottom line of income.
    
    When Google TKOs your account, you DO NOT as a rule get your earned income. As such, whatever sits in your account is given up to them. Trust me ... that would suck for any of us who have worked hard and are nearing a payout.
    
    So, which would you prefer? A slap on the wrist by HP or a loss of nearly $100 income and never being able to use Adsense again?
    
    Trust me ... we should all be praising HP for doing everything they can to secure our Adsense accounts, as the Adsense TOS is a lot easier to violate than one might think.
    
    I wrote up a whole hub on what was and wasn't acceptable by Google, and many of the things amazed even me.
    
    Oh, and HP takes down the hub to stop the violation and this gives you a chance to email them to find out what is wrong, to mend it, and to put it back on line.
    
    As I said, one of my previous hubs violated the Google TOS, and a quick email to the HP team gave me what I needed to mend it and put it back online - and it's made me money ever since.

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       Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Excellent post, worth highlighting.
       
       When the HubPages team takes any action, they're doing it to protect our income and theirs.  They're on our side! 
       
       Bottom line - If you don't like Adsense's rules, start your own blog and monetize it your own way.  There are plenty of affiliate programs out there.

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          Aya Katzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Such as?
          
          I'm planning to stay with Hubpages and Adsense, but anything that I want to say that isn't allowed, I plan to say elsewhere and get it indexed by means of advertising. Are there viable alternatives to Adsense that will help me get good page rank for my alternative content?

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             Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Advertising doesn't get your page indexed and won't do anything at all for your page rank - unless I've missed something.
             
             The main Adsense-type alternative is Chitika.
             
             There are lots of affiliate companies, you just need to find one that advertises products relevant to your subject.  I found mine by googling things like "affiliate belly dance" or "affiliate dance".
             
             Try companies like Commission Junction, Shareasale, Affiliate Future, LinkShare, Clickbank....

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                Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Have to agree with Marisa on this one, Aya - I don't run adverts on my business site, and it still gets picked up just fine. Only an opinion, but I think that if Google started prioritising sites that only carried Adsense, people would drift to other search engines, one area where there is some growing competition.

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                   Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   Another point - many internet gurus tell you not to put Adsense on your blog until it's doing well (for reasons to do with smart pricing), so clearly it's not considered an aid in getting your site ranked.

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                   Aya Katzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   Is there growing competition in the area of search engines, Sufi? I was under the impression that Google had the market cornered.

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                      Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      I wouldn't say cornered - dominant, certainly, cornered, no. However, if it starts pushing customers away, Bing is slowly growing (although it is early days) and Yahoo could easily make a comeback. The way that Microsoft became complacent with Internet Explorer and lost a lot of ground to Firefox is a similar example - it took its dominance for granted.
                      
                      Again, it is only my opinion, but I can't see why Google would spend a fortune on refining their search algorithms on the one hand, and then contradict that by prioritising sites carrying Adsense. My business site is PR4 and has no adverts

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                         Aya Katzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                         What does PR4 mean?

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                            Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                            Page rank is measured from 0 to 10 - 0 is awful, 10 is amazing.  A PR of 4 is pretty good, because the scale is (people think) logarithmic.
                            
                            Google's algorithm works differently to Altavista, and professional webmasters spend a lot of time gaming the system to rank high in Google's algorithm.  Academics and other people writing on "obscure" subjects probably aren't doing that, so they lose out on Google.
                            
                            Remember the Google robots can't judge the quality of content, so they rely heavily on the "reputation" of each site (e.g. the number of other sites that link to it).

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                      Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      There isn't really much competition at the moment, but others do exist - so if people stopped getting reasonable results, there are places they would go. 
                      
                      I have never seen any suggestion that Google favours Adsense sites over others.  Rumours start every now and then - for instance, there's a persistent rumour that "Google hearts Blogger" because it owns it, but anyone who has ever tried to start a Blogger blog will know it's no more likely to get noticed than any other blogging platform!

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                         Aya Katzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                         My favorite search engine is and always was Altavista. When I am looking for something obscure, Altavista will find it, while Google acts as if it doesn't exist. Why would that be, unless Google's algorithm somehow favors those things that sell over pure information?

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                         LoneWolfMuskokaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                         Google makes money when people use Google.  People will only come back when Google consistently finds them what they want. 
                         
                         Having Google ads does not guarantee that so I doubt that they even care about the ads on your site.  They care about whether your site will please the searcher and give them a positive experience.
                         
                         That is why Google is always tweaking their algorithm and is so harsh on those who try to use blackhat SEO techniques.

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                Aya Katzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Thanks, Marisa. That's very useful information!

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             Website Examinerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             There's AdBrite too, similar to AdSense.

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                Aya Katzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Thanks, Website Examiner!

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    kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years ago

    Trust me ... we should all be praising HP for doing everything they can to secure our Adsense accounts, as the Adsense TOS is a lot easier to violate than one might think.
    
    
    true enough Yoshi
    
    Thanks

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12. 0

    Nelle Hoxieposted 13 years ago

    The strategy of posting objectionable content elsewhere and linking to it is also against Google Adsense Program Polices. This is their wording.
    
    
    "Sites with Google ads may not include or link to:
    
    Pornography, adult or mature content
    Violent content
    Content related to racial intolerance or advocacy against any individual, group or organisation
    Excessive profanity
    Hacking/cracking content
    Gambling or casino-related content
    Illicit drugs and drug paraphernalia content
    Sales of beer or hard alcohol
    Sales of tobacco or tobacco-related products
    Sales of prescription drugs
    Sales of weapons or ammunition (e.g. firearms, firearm components, fighting knives, stun guns)
    Sales of products that are replicas or imitations of designer goods
    Sales or distribution of coursework or student essays
    Content regarding programs which compensate users for clicking ads or offers, performing searches, surfing websites or reading emails
    Any other content that is illegal, promotes illegal activity or infringes on the legal rights of others."

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       yoshi97posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       You never link to objectionable material. Your best bet is to place such material on a site and then link to your site (not the material) through your HP profile.
       
       Your best bet is to have a front page that obeys all of Google's rules and link to that. In doing so, you will keep Google happy and be able to tell other hubbers about your site through your profile.

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          relacheposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          You seem to be forgetting that Google crawls entire sites, and will find the objectionable content even if you aren't linking directly to it.

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    Sufidreamerposted 13 years ago

    Aya - PR is Page Rank. A page rank of 4 means that Google sees it as a decent site.
    
    As for the Altavista, I suspect that it may be comparing apples to oranges, as the two search engines use completely different methods to rank pages.
    
    Not saying that you are wrong, because I have no idea about what goes on in the internet world - maybe one of the more savvy Hubbers can clear that one up.
    
    EDIT: Marisa - you beat me too it!

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