Money and Writing
76Money Is Everything?
Thanks to Scott.Life and Euro-Pen for thier suggestions. I've added some more comments, and fixed up some problem writing, all except the email. Nothing has changed there.
As I write a lot, on blogs and on hubs, I get a lot of emails. They mostly ask me questions or ask for links or a book reivew. Since I've been writing for a long time, this is common, but this email I got wasn't one that I could keep to myself. It concerns writing and money. More to the point the money that goes, or should go, with writing. The email is in italics below.
"To suggest to such a degree that writers are anyone who writes is absurd. The only possible way to prove oneself as a writer is to make enough money to be self sustaining. Otherwise, there is no hope for the "writing career" of said writer. Only jokers are willing to sacrifice themselves for a dream. These people should have no standing in the writing world.Too many people fancy themselves writers and spend time poking at a computer. In reality they do nothing, not even write. Blogs do not count, as bloggers simply write rubbish. They do not have a job to refer to, other than their dream. I say again it is a dream... no money they are not a writer, they are a dreamer. Dreamers need to come down from their clouds and get a real job. I suspect that writers who don't make money have someone who backs their delusions up.... I repeat again all writers without money are dreamers. Delusional dreamers and nothing more."
Ah yes the dreamers comment, I find it hard to comprehend, or at least it makes me stop and think, why does this email feel that writers who don't make money are dreamers? Is it because they are a lost writer of sorts? It makes sense to ask this sort of question when I get these emails.
It is possible I suppose, after all as dreamers writers create and that isn't per se a bad thing. But if all one does is dream, well the emailer does have point from there. They do make more points, and some of them I do agree with and many of them i do not. Everyone has a voice and everyone should be able to express them. It is the time and the effort that count the most.
I'll go through some good points and some not so good points about this email:
The Good Points:
Writers must write and work for their writing. I feel that this point is overshadowed in the effort to talk about money. Yes, money is needed to live, and there is nothing good about the Starving artist, they don't do their finest work if they are not mentality and physically healthy. To say that you are a writer and then to work in some other medium, but talk about writing, then you're a hobby writer. There is nothing wrong with that, Just tell it like it is.
Money is a need for everyone. I think as writers we need to have a goal of working towards making a steady income with our writing. It may be small at first but, it will snowball. It needs to be at least something that happens on a regular basis. If that can't be done, one must wonder a bit more about their work as a writer, or if this is theirprofession. It is of course, a personal choice, and something it needs to be a choice that makes sense. If you've written say 5 novels and you don't make back your advance, well question your work. On teh other hand, should you make the advance and then some, this is a good thing.
Anyone can write. Anyone, but I don't know who writes small things, Christmas Cards or emails, and calls themselves "writers". I most certainly do not draw and paint and say I'm an artist of that medium. The fact that I enjoy painting but will never make money on that doesn't mean that it isn't something I shouldn't try, and enjoy.
Not So Good Points:
Money is everything. No, it's not, if you write for money you run the risk of writing the same things before because it "works" if you write with a passion and enjoyment for writing a small bit of money in return for your work is alright. As I've said int eh other "good points" the income should be steady. But it shouldn't be everything. In fact it shouldn't be the sole reason to write. If it is... fine, but I might not as a reader want to read more.
Suggesting that Writers don't work. Okay a bit of a good and bad point. Here's my take, if you write and you want to write, don't quit your day job unless there is something to make sure you can sustain yourself. It is when a writer makes a bit of extra money on the side that this might become an issue, after all, it isn't a hobby then, but not enough to quit full time and write. I'd love to do that but I also know not yet.
Using someone else. I don't like the idea of it one bit. I am against it, as a friend of mine said so clearly, it's manipualtions at its finest. There is one proviso that I make to this statement, that is this: Agreed upon sustaining for a period of time between close relations. For example: A one year thing between a husband and wife (or significant long term other) where someone works for steady income and the other writes or does art or something, and begins to bring in money that way. There should be a time limit though, and an acceptance that things aren't going the way they should. That is alright as well.
Not mentioning other ways that writers can make money in this email. You don't simply have to write a book to make money. There is blogging, interviewing, writing, commentaries, ghostwriting nothing is ordinary, but also if it pertains to writing it works. In fact all of these methods can produce a steady stream of readers, and income. It takes some planning, and a good business plan, and a marketing plan.
One final Suggestion:
Start writing, and write with an intent to publish and to make money. Decide how much you want and aim for a bit more than that. We aren't dreamers us writers, but we should take the time to make our dreams a reality.
Dream and create, and work hard at what you do. Enjoy every moment, and write about it. Some moments aren't great but some are better. Money isn't everything, dreamers are needed.
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Everyone was doing it. My online friends. My online nemesis. They all knew how, but I didn't. I was afraid to ask, because the answer might be something like:
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Does the writer of the email have a point
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Comments
well put well put, of course I need to hear more! The pens are a means of my way of encouraging people to write.
I am proud to call myself a dreamer a shout it from the rooftop!! every successful person had a dream and went for it. That's like saying Martin Luther King was JUST a dreamer. dreams and hopes are the foundation of all forward progress. I pity the soul that is afraid to dream. there's is a soul that will never realize its true potential. Love your work, I am now a fan.
Keep it up Scott.Life, your dreams will come true! I do love the Marin Luther King comment, very apt, and he changed the world.
well Rebecca, my ole man is ex seal and our son is marine...shall I point them in the direction of that emailer and let my guys uhhhh "talk" to him?
awwwwwww please???? :)
Hey Scott, Rebecca had me at her FIRST hub!!!
DirtDog I shout it as well! Dreamer I am!
RNMSN, naw we'llbe nice, they are very much annoyed with me for putting this out on a hubas is! haha, they thought I would keep it quiet
The person who wrote that comment may have had a mouth full of sour grapes.
yes you could say that, I took out the worst of it...
this hub is in the running for hubnuggets. Thanks to all.
Hi Rebecca E; Interesting topic. Published writer doesn't mean, they can make full time living from their published work. Many of them can't even sell their published work. I personally know some writers in this situation.
Writing is not a problem for a writer, selling the published work is the difficult part.
Similarly not every artist can make their living from just selling their work. Many famous artist died poor but became famous after they died.
exactly my point with this hub, it's important to think in a different light than just money and wealth. But at the same time it is something one should aspire to.
Hi Rebecca, congratulations for being a Hubnugget Wannabe! :D While the links are being fixed, let me also just say, I loved how you were able to make money and writing work together. Love your suggestions as they are practical while not giving up on one's dreams.
To vote for this hub, click here: http://hubpages.com/_hubnuggets10/hub/hubnuggets-0
That letter writer is full of BS :) Some of the greatest writers in history had to have a full-time regular job before they became published writers able to support themselves. And I'll join the chorus of those who love dreams (I'm probably a bit of one myself)
Excellent hub.
Okay me to I am one of them dreamers. Uninvited Writer you are very right.
Ripplemaker thanks for the comments!
Rebecca,
I sure hope this emailer was not attacking you with their vile typing.
It is okay to express one's opinion, but who are they to decide who is and is not a writer? Who is to say that a person can only be called an actor if they are in a one-man play, or an artist can only be called a painter if they are an impressionist. Every medium of creativity has MANY forms, it is in our best interest to learn to respect and appreciate all those, so that our own creativity can grow.
Thank you for posting this email, regardless of the backlash you might receive. It was helpful for me to find my own opinion regarding how to define a writer.
Blessings,
Leslie
believe it or not leslie they were commenting about a comment I made on a blog of mine that anyone can be writers, just need confidence.
Rebecca, I would like to on record and join the chorous, nothing wrong with dreamers. And there is nothing wrong with writing for the joy of it rather than the job of it.
Good hub, and congratulations on your wannabe nomination.
Hey, aren't we all dreamers? But not all writers write for the money. Many writers write because they just love writing. Not everything in this world is about money. If we dream to become writers we dream because we love doing it and not because we are supposed to make lots of money. I pity the guy who emailed you that message. Perhaps he ought to know what life really means. Thanks Rebecca E.
Was Van Gogh not an artist? Yet he sold exactly one painting in his lifetime and DID NOT support himself with his art.
We do a lot of things in our lifetimes. Sometimes we get paid for them, sometimes we don't.
Arbitrary labels, like arbitrary labelling people can, in the immortal words of Kurt Vonnegut, "take a flying **** at a rolling donut; they can take a flying **** at the MOON!"
It's interesting how people that write, or write on a regular basis all share the same point of view. Keep them coming!
Great Hub and congrats on nomination as Hubnugget wannabe! I just want to be a bit of a nitpicker, though. As a writer it is quite important, as other Hub writers have noted, to get the grammar, syntax and spelling right. Little things can take away one's concentration from the real issue at hand. My examples from your Hub are these:
You wrote "per say" when what you meant was "per se"
You wrote "then your a hobby writer" when you meant "then you're a hobby writer." This is one of my pet quibbles - a professional writer should know the difference between "your" and "you're" - because it is a big and meaningful difference.
Then some stylistic issues like your sentences "There is one proviso that I make to this statement, that is this: Agreed upon sustaining for a period of time." These are clumsy constructions and you might find it helpful to read these over to yourself and see if you can re-phrase them to read more smoothly and naturally.
Sorry about the nitpicking, but I have been an editor so these things stick out at me like sore thumbs!
The point about writing and making money though is not what the email writer wrote. T.S. Eliot had to work at a bank to fund his writing. Wallace Stevens had to be an insurance salesman to fund his. If making money was the only measure of being an artist Vincent van Gogh was a delusional dreamer.
Well, actually, he was! And being a delusional dreamer does not disqualify one from being an artist also.
Thanks for sharing your interesting thoughts on writing. You're doing well!
Love and peace
Tony
I guess I have to be the all time dreamer then. I love writing, here on HP and on my blog, have published a couple of books but definitely can't make a living from that. At the moment. Maybe, one day...
Thanks to all.
Big thanks to tony mac 04, I'll be fixing them soon!
cindywine, keep it up, you'll do well.
Thank you for publishing this Hub!! Who is this "writer" to say all someone is doing is dreaming if they write. I know plenty of authors who would be very offended by a comment like that one..it offends me. Sometimes, all we have are our dreams for a sense of hope.
As far as I feel writers are writers not money are writers.
The viciousness of the writer of your email shocked me. For one thing, to me a hobby writer IS a writer. The person who gives his or her Nanowrimo novel to the world on a privately owned website without earning money on it, without even putting ads on it -- is someone who chose not to put it in the marketplace. It could be called a hobby. But that doesn't mean it isn't a novel.
It's not even a guarantee of quality.
A good many classic novels were self published at their authors' expense in times when that was a much more expensive proposition than it is now. Anne Frank's diary was published posthumously by her father, one of its greatest tragedies is that she didn't survive to write the novels she made me want to read. She was a writer.
Her dad was also a good editor, but that's not my point.
She's flat saying that you can't call yourself "a writer" until you reach a point where you're earning a full time living on it? That's snobbery, plain and simple.
A good many of my favorite authors never earned enough from their famous novels, novels still in print, to live on. They liked the lifestyle of their full time science or engineering jobs and kept a dual career. Another great writer among them died while living on $5,000 a year from his continued productive efforts -- living so far under the poverty line that he had to crick his neck to look up at it. Does that make him more of a success than a writer who doesn't quit being an engineer and lives on a five or six figure engineering salary?
Does someone who donates all the proceeds of his or her novel not count as a real writer? That's happened too.
The point of that email is snobbery and discouragement. Turning "dreamer" into an insult is sabotage -- if we weren't dreamers, we wouldn't be writers.
The term for what she's talking about is "full time professional writer." A smaller subset than "writer," one that's a lifestyle choice rather than a category in and of itself. The publishing industry's economics are such that a person who writes only one good novel in his or her lifetime will not have a career on that novel. His or her publisher won't earn anything on it.
The marketplace is dictated by economics. Professional editors have a great deal of skill. Even with that, I've seen a lot of crud in print and I have sometimes read better in less commercial contexts. So the only thing "the money" means even if you draw the line at publishers that pay large advances vs. small press that pays none or smaller advances, is a certain minimal level of quality -- and mass distribution.
If you have high quality, the Internet is mass distribution for free. If you have some reason not to choose the lifestyle of "full time professional writer" that doesn't mean you're not a writer.
You're a novelist from the point you finish a novel, as Chris Baty of http://www.nanowrimo.org says. Not necessarily a good or great novelist, not necessarily a paid novelist, but when it's in your hands as a printed manuscript or sitting on your hard drive as finished files -- then you're a novelist.
That's where I stand on it. I don't draw that line about people who sketch or paint either, if they sketch or paint they're artists. If they sing or play an instrument, they're musicians. If they get out and dance, they're dancers.
There is no reason to humble the dreamers of the world or the students in this untaught profession. If we had schools of novelwriting the way there are good art schools, there would still be a vast number of new professionals every year who taught themselves, just as there are all sorts of successful professional artists who taught themselves.
Where does this definition leave the journalist? The blogger or website owner who IS earning enough to live on? The numerous fiction authors whose magazine articles and nonfiction books provide the lion's share of their income? Even if you want to be a full time professional writer, that just means "all the things I do for money involve writing for it."
I have one bit of advice for anyone who does have an economic subsidy -- a spouse, a pension, savings, whatever, to let them go full time ahead of the point when writing income meets their chosen lifestyle. It is chosen -- at the time I read of that writer's death I was living under $5,000 a year as a street artist and doing better than when I had a job.
My advice to dreamers who want to become full time professional writers is to put in 40 hour weeks, if you have the time for it. Ten or twenty if you don't, if you're holding down another job to survive. It's amazing what you can produce in a 40 hour week. Most of the people I've known who had trouble with it have the same trouble any self employed person does.
Time management, distinguishing work-time from all the other things that need to be done. If you can schedule 40 hours in a week for doing the work, production goes way through the roof. That includes sticking to trying to do it during those rotten hours of block or rumination when nothing's coming out and it'd be so much a relief to just clean house or punch in at an office.
Self employment skills are something completely different from the ability to write fiction well. They're needed by anyone who wants to become a successful full time writer. But if the point of doing it is the writing itself, then where you send it and how you choose to live really doesn't matter as long as you make it available to readers some way.
If you sit on it and never show it, then you may wind up like poor Anne Frank with posthumous recognition and not a dime of royalties.
I'm not disputing that it's important to shoot for the goal of full time professional, or that it's a bad thing to do. It's a good thing to do. But part time professionals do just as well and sometimes better. The number of completely unpaid brilliant writers is thankfully low, there does come a point of success when if nothing else, someone offers some money for it and the offer's decent. When works go far enough over that minimum-publishable bar, it will attract publishers.
Every now and then a Print On Demand success gets swept in by the big publishers who offer to buy it out at the point when the numbers without their distribution are comparable to a big success in their distribution. I haven't heard of anyone who turned down that kind of offer.
But I have known some writers who are making a good living on ebooks and print on demand books in their chosen genres.
Snobbery about full-time vs. part-time vs. volunteer just seems like snobbery to me. Your position seems more moderate, so I thought I'd post mine in a comment to give the full range. I do not believe it's right to discourage dreamers.
It only hurts them and does not add one grain of praise to anyone who's achieved more. It can also turn around and slap the critic in the face once they do achieve something public because greatness and mediocrity all look the same while learning.
The email reflects an "all or nothing" attitude that discourages Americans from going into any of the arts. Either you're a superstar or you shouldn't even try. That's what's delusional to me, because anyone who ever did become a full time professional probably didn't start there.
That kind of discouragement is wrong. It's cruel and pointless.
If anyone wants to be a writer, then write. Finish something. Write the things you want to write, the ones that matter to you. Decide how you want to live on the basis of how you want to live, not on what this email writer thinks of you. There's always going to be someone petty and cruel in this culture to run down anything anyone does.
Last... when did believing in yourself become a delusion? Everyone who is today a full time professional writer had to go through a time in life when they wanted to do that and had to believe that they could. This statement in the email implies a threat to lock up anyone in a madhouse who even thinks of going out for the job, unless they already have it! Do you see how ridiculous an extreme that is?
I'd rather be generous to the hobbyists and turn "Amateur" or "Professional" into categories -- self defined on
Blessings to you Rebecca E. for such a lively Hub!!
Alas, I do not understand the angry tone of the person who emailed you!!?? It reads like a very personal experience!!?? Maybe referring to themselves, or, maybe referring to a 35 year old adult-child still living at home, not helping with chores or rent, because they are "dreaming of writing the "Great American Novel!!"
We are all writers!! We learn to color and scribble at a young age and eventually turn our efforts into letters, numbers and sentences!!
As a publisher in California, we make a loose distinction between writers and authors, the same way it is done in the art world!! Someone goes from being a writer to an author once they have sold a piece of their work!! Even if it is just for pennies to begin with - it is something to celebrate!!
I am a bit confused by the person who sent you the original email that sparked this debate!! The writer adamantly protests "rubbish" being written by writing rubbish themselves!!??
Congratulations on being a HubNugget!!
Blessings always, Earth Angel!!
Hi Rebecca You hit it right on the head. You write for passion, to express feeling, to show a point of view and if you stick at it you might make some money. If you don't then you keep on trying until you do.If people recieve a moment of pleasure reading your hub then you have achieved something special, you have made someones day. regards brownlickie.
Beware! The writer of that email is obviously trying to sell you something! Even a so-called failed writer is a writer of some sort. Hobbyist writers are perfectly cool too. Somebody ought to take that guy's keyboard and whack him over the head with it. Later!
Writing is a skill. Anyone who is good at it can consider themseleves writers. Some of us don't need the money due to good investments. I have on occasion been paid, however.
it's important to know why you're writing, and you've all made some excellent points. If you write do it for passion, and if, if money is needed that will come to.
But don't make it the number one thing, write for you.
I agree that writers write. Many great writers had to write some things they weren't especially proud of to bring the money in to live on. To make money as a writer, you have to write what a lot of people want to read. Very few poets, for example, bring in the cash of a best-selling novelist. Many writers got their start by writing for magazines like True Confessions before they got published in the Saturday Evening Post. (Yes, I'm in my sixties. ) They churned out romance novels or formula mysteries to make money while they worked on what they hoped might become the Great American Novel.
Is someone who uses writing skills to write letters to special friends not a writer because the readership is small? The letters I wrote in my younger days could have filled several books. Some were several pages long and dealt with topics important to the recipient. Many writers write letters, but they normally only get published after the writer is well known for more public work. Some people write regular letters to the editor of their local or even larger newspapers. Are they writers?
What about academic writers who publish papers for literary, academic, or technical journals that have little readership, but maintain their reputations in their professions? Are they writers just as much as John Steinbeck? How about ghost writers that get read a lot and make money, but few know who they are?
I don't think money is the determining factor. I think a writer is someone who must write because there's something he or she wants / needs to say -- whether it's to one person or to the world at large. And if that person then actually writes, and keeps writing, he or she is a writer.
Many people who had no intention of becoming writers kept journals in their youth and young adulthood and wrote letters that changed people's lives. They had day jobs or had given their lives to serving others in the professions. Later in life they became known as writers when they drew on those journals and letters and turned them into books. In my opinion, they were writers all along -- just not published ones.
excellent points WannaB Writer, keep them coming.
The writer of the email seems to be one hurt and angry person, maybe no one ever encouraged them or praised them. I don't begin to know what enraged them so, but it seems to me that the outburst says more about them and what they feel a writer is than it does about what a writer actually is.
have a nice day
maggs we are right to suggest this. I feel they are hurt and angry as well.
It's funny how people feel about writers and writing
informative article.
Thanks so much stars439, I'm glad you found it to be this way.
Rebecca E,
This was an interesting peek at the warped hateful nature of one sour grapes sort of person. Perhaps they were having a bad day, year or life. When they say "Blogs do not count, as bloggers simply write rubbish" isn't it true that they were responding to something you wrote in your blog? If they truly believe their own statement then they waste their time reading rubbish and further take more time to knock down others who do have a dream.
Strange world it is. Nice to have found others who write because it is what they are inside, writers, whether we earn dollars for our art or not. In my case, not, but hopeful. Still it's not the main focus, just a side bonus of our trade. Money is not everything.
As Paradise7 stated the Vincent Van Goghs of the world are not measured by their income or sale of their works but by their true art and creations.
Happy writing to you.
They were in fact responding to writing in general, from my understanding they wanted to be a writer, but didn't get the advance they felt their book should have gotten... IT is sad to see people so bitter, but they also don't believe that anyone should feel positive about writing.
I find it hard to believe that people like your commenter can make such stupid comments and actually believe they are saying something intelligent. As PegCole says it is a strange world indeed.
Excellent take on writers and writing!
very interesting person, I am amazed at the bile this person has.
Dirtdog says:
3 months ago
Well put in a sence of action . how dare that author in away disrespect the regard of writing for money as If one writes an doesn't make a substainable ammount of money one necessarily isn't a writer . hubub Hang him out to dry !
Some write for the pure pleasure of it. Some write for the act of being noticed an getting they're thoughts out there so to speak .
I myself in a since have made some money from my work but have never published a book . but in all my blogs having given a great sense of accomplishment an the reward of a check from google is the iceing on the cake .
Reader responce to me seems to be very fulfilling an associating an in relating to others do give one a reality of prosperity an fulfilling that empty void of alone .
Great picture of the old pens rebecca .
I personally collect Cartier pens . They truely are magnificent indeed .
Also in possesing a Cartier Watch . A Pasha chronographer glansing at it in my travels an refering to it in my writing it gives one a sense of being in the mainstream an actually puts one in a place of realising that time is essential it all has an effect on all of us in away an the realization that each an every one of us has our own special place in time .
The clock is alway's ticking away the last moments of time for us all. Be it as it may there eventually is an end for all of us in our writing an of course in our life .
Cheers to you rebecca
With all due respect Sincerely Dirtdog