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What Defines A Christian?

  1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago

    There's a lot of going back and forth about how Christians are this that or another. Yet no one ever pins down exactly what specific belief it is that makes Christians delusional, or hateful or whatever. The fact is that not all Christians believe the same thing, and not even members of our own religious group can pin down exactly what makes us Christian, what defining characteristic.... So let's hear your opinions... what exactly defines a Christian or even Christianity.


    Short Definition:

    Chris·tian·i·ty noun: the religion that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    OK, that's pretty concise and I'll venture to guess that most people will say that's a defining characteristic. Note that it doesn't say that it says strictly adheres to every single teaching of Jesus Christ, just that the religion is based on them. It also says nothing about the old testament or any other part of the Bible except the teachings of Christ.

    So basically, by this definition, anyone who's religion is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ is a Christian.

    Let's go from there...

    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I have been told by some Christians that you are not a true Christian, if you have not been baptized (as an adult) and have not given up your life for him. Is this true?

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        That eliminates quite a few denominations including Catholics, Presbyterians and Methodists.  Many of which are likely to be surprised that they are no longer Christian.

        It also eliminates me from the Christian pool.

        Demmit.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
          Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I consider it to be it to be an unfortunate belief based on inadequate understanding...don't you?

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            No not really... I just believe it to be someone mistakenly believing that their denomination defines the whole of Christianity.

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              Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Totally agree with that. Our denomination defines nothing having to do with salvation.

    2. Claire Evans profile image87
      Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Deleted

      1. Claire Evans profile image87
        Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Your definition is correct according to what it is officially defined as but it is more than just following the teachings of Christ.  It is believing that Jesus is the son of God.  Anyone can follow the teachings of Christ like to love your neighbours but this is very secondary to accepting Jesus as the son of God

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          There are lots of denominations that don't believe that Jesus is the actual physical son of God. Once again you are confusing the teachings of YOUR denomination with the whole of Christianity.

          1. Claire Evans profile image87
            Claire Evansposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Like what denominations?

      2. bBerean profile image61
        bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Based on that definition, a self proclaimed "christian" may be a worshiper of nature who feels they are following Jesus example and becoming closer to nature by wearing sandals and eating fish.  No need to actually believe in God, Jesus as a historical figure, let alone as God Himself, Creator and Savior.  No need to believe in the bible, sin, the need of salvation, or the gospel message.  Anyone who finds deep meaning in a single quote from Christ can and may claim to be a follower.

        Actually, I think your definition is pretty accurate in terms of how loosely "christian" is now used.  Of course this makes the term close to worthless in describing what the person claiming to be one may really believe.  No surprise though, since Jesus told us the day would come when all sorts of people would claim to follow Him, while in reality not even knowing, understanding or accepting who He is, why He came or what a relationship with Him consists of. 

        Christians, by the OP's definition, may not even believe in Satan, but if they did they might realize that creating a plethora of false versions of Christianity is a brilliant way for Satan to cause confusion and undermine the gospel.  It is to be so pervasive a deception that Jesus questioned if when He returned He would find any genuine faith.  It is kind of like those who believe god is everything and everything is god, which as an equation cancels out and equals zero, rendering the whole concept meaningless.  If everyone who is moved by and embraces any small aspect of Jesus teachings are "Christians", those truly following Him become a proverbial needle in the "Christianity" haystack.  Their voices will be drowned by the masses espousing whatever versions of "Christianity" they have assembled for themselves to pacify what their itching ears want to hear.

        Anticipating the next question, "who gets to decide who is Christian and who isn't?" Jesus does.  So in the meantime, that nature worshiper and anyone else who wants to, will continue to claim to be Christian, just as Jesus prophesied.  It's just another sign of the times for those with ears to hear.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          That was a wholly judgmental post. Almost everything in it. To top it with "Jesus will decide" was just icing. You do realize you just said, effectively, that unless they believe the teachings that you have been taught, they aren't Christian...That they are evil and tools of Satan.

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You can't trust a heretic. I bet she/he isn't even Catholic. Talk about perversion. lol...

          2. bBerean profile image61
            bBereanposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Well, although you labeled me a "heretic," it seems you, at minimum, agree with the first 2 paragraphs of the post that garnered that response from you.

            At least we agree on something.  wink

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
              Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              It was a joke, but you know that. I got it from what you said about all the splinter groups perverting the religion. Are you Catholic? If not then by definition you are part of those splinter groups, what ever your beliefs are.
              Then again by definition you are a heretic. wink

              As am I, of course. More so because I was born a Catholic and became an atheist.

              But I did like what you said about the belief that everything is god and god is everything. You are so right. If all is god there is no god, as god is defined by Christians as something above all else.

              Which makes Pantheism an atheistic belief. The Catholic Church agrees with us too.

              I'm glad because that was my intent when I helped create Scientific or naturalistic Pantheism.

              No, I'm not a  believer in Pantheism, though I am a Pantheist. I don't actually believe anything. I weigh probability. As Paul Harrison once told me, even in the religion I helped found I am a heretic.

      3. Cgenaea profile image59
        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I imagine that this forum is possibly born from the unanswered question that I posed to you the other day.  Jesus gave specific qualifiers of salvation but they are listed biblically.  How does one find out what those qualifiers are if we who call ourselves Christians first tell them that they cannot trust scripture?  There is a uniform document that spells out for each of us what the Lord requires.  But I am finding that many Christians are more and more reporting that "leaning to your own understanding" is best. How can that be? What is the "thing" that drew any of us? It was not a "talking donkey in the middle of the street" for many of us. It was the reading and the hearing and the doing of biblical text.  Jesus started his ministry on earth with the recitation of WRITTEN words of God. How can we not? For me, the worst statement of "Christianity" is "put that bible down and feeeel your way" we must hear it and do it as written.  It is imperative we understand what he wants. We cannot without biblical text. To say it is tainted is to say that Jesus was wrong.

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          Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          This is something that has always troubled me as well. How can ppl say they want to follow Jesus, but then discount the main recording of his life and work? It is like saying you want to write like Shakespeare (we use that example a lot) but saying you don't want to read his writings.

          It's at this point you are creating your own god. You are making Jesus a god that is comfortable to you. Yet the first commandment is to have no other gods before you. Either God is who He is, and He is to be accepted on His own terms, as any of us would want to be, or He is our own creation. To me that is an absolute danger... recreating the Creator to fit into your box. I personally could no more discount the Bible when it comes to God than I could discount oxygen when it comes to breathing. It would have disastrous consequences.

          1. A Troubled Man profile image61
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            And yet, all we have are disastrous consequences from those who think the same way, from those who follow the Bible rather than follow Christ.

            1. Cgenaea profile image59
              Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Christ followed the WRITTEN documentation of God. He repeated it a lot.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Thank you for proving my point. smile

                1. Cgenaea profile image59
                  Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh THAT was your point??? Kudos!  wink

          2. Cgenaea profile image59
            Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Yep. He warned the scribes. He warns us too.

          3. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
            Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I wouldn't use the Shakespeare one too often. We're not sure Shakespeare actually wrote what is accredited to him.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
              MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              LOL, I actually watched a literature professor and a forensic linguistics professor almost come to blows over that once.

              Which, of course, has nothing to do with the Bible... although that forensic linguistics teacher had some interesting thoughts on that one too...

              Ah, there we go... full circle.

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                With religious zeal, no doubt. Most people are drawn to authenticity. For them a perfect forgery of a Picasso has no value even though the paintings are identical. Just so a Christian would be appalled to learn that the words of Jesus were actually spoken by another before him or in place of there actually being a Jesus. Same words, same meaning, but of far less value for them somehow. 

                The brain is amazing.

                Makes no difference to me, I never liked Picasso. But a master forger, now that is a person with real skill.

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              Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Yeah, Ive heard that too. Of course Shakespeare is just a name... whoever wrote it... they are that man's work... we could call him Bob, but then... could be a little confusing. We could go with "the artist formerly known as Shakespeare."

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                But would you say the same thing if you found out that Jesus never existed? The messages would be the same.

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                  Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  That is true. If Jesus never existed, most of his msg. would still be the same: "Love your neighbor, help the widow and the orphan" etc... all good stuff... of course the stuff about "I (Jesus) am the way, the truth and the life, no man can come to the Father except by me." would change dramatically... especially concerning salvation.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                    MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    To some of us, salvation isn't the point.

                    I never desired a savior. I wanted a role-model.

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                      Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      I understand... and to some of us salvation is everything.

                    2. Chris Neal profile image82
                      Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      I never desired a savior either.

                      Still...

                  2. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Not really. The idea that no one can come to god except through Jesus could be interpreted to mean that we are to emulate the ideal of Jesus. Jesus could just be metaphorical, a parable designed to show the way to a better world and to god. No real Jesus even needs to have existed for the message to be carried on.

                    A lot of religions teach the same thing, that only by being kind to all living things, living in peace, can we get to god. The messages are basically the same. The benefit for man kind would be the same if more people actually followed such teachings,

                    1. tammybarnette profile image60
                      tammybarnetteposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Accepting Jesus as the Son of God, born of the virgin Mary is the foundation of faith. Jesus was God in human form, there is no room for interpretation. To be a Christian is to accept this fact by pure faith.

        2. DoubleScorpion profile image84
          DoubleScorpionposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Ok...I have a question...And this is not to just you, I am just using your post as it has the wording that i wish to base my quesion from....

          Why would Jesus (God), need to use the written word of God to explain himself??

          And to answer the OP...Christian means little Christ or Christ-like...So that to me would imply one who lives their life in replication of how Christ lived his. So I think to how the bible descibes his actions...(The four Gospels, as most Christians feel these are by eyewitnesses, Not Paul's letters) And I don't know very many who actually live this way...There are many who follow the teachings of Paul (Christianity that ATM was refering to) and completely fail to follow what Christ preached. As many who are Christian say...The Bible is the error free word of God and by such, it should be quite easy to read and understand what Jesus said, did and taught.
          Jesus was a Jew and followed the scriptures and law of the Jews (The Old Testament) and he said that not jot or tittle would pass away from that law until all that he had spoken of (the fulfillment of the Kingdom of Heaven/God) had come to past. So I am curious as to how many Christians are following the Old Testament laws that Jesus is speaking of or are they following Christianity that is found in Paul's teachings?

          I am thinking there are Alot more Paulians than there are Christians

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            jot or a tittle. smile


            Jesus came to fulfill the law. He was the completion of what God began. God saw that man constantly failed to follow His law, so in His mercy, He sent Jesus to pay the price for our sin. Paul's teachings are God breathed so Im not sure what the actual issue is there.

            As far as it being inerrant, yes, but is your point that inerrant equals simple?

            1. DoubleScorpion profile image84
              DoubleScorpionposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Yes. Jesus came to fulfill the law...That is said alot...But I am curious if Christians actually know what this means...Before I say what is taught about this phrase in religious classes, we'll see what is offered...

              So now there is mercy...So is God Just or is he Merciful? One can't be both as mercy is a suspension of Just...Also if God is unchanging...Why would he be Just in his actions for sin in the Old Testament and then Merciful to sin in the New?

              If Paul's teachings are from God, why do they differ from what Jesus taught?

              Inerrant should mean that there would be no need to "interpret" as it should be read and understood by anyone...Also error free means that nothing should contradict and the Gospels do...If someone needs to go to school to learn apologetics the explain the contradictions then the bible isn't error free...

              Also if there is mercy and Jesus fulfilled the law, then why do we still follow the "ten commandments" (and I say it as such as these are not the actual ten commandments as per the bible)...Why do we still hold that homosexuality is wrong? We don't stone our kids for miss behaving, we don't stone people for working on the sabbath (Saturday btw). There are plenty of things in the Old testament that we don't do now, but cherry pick what we use from the OT to condemn others though

              1. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                The old test... was God showing how serious he considers sin. It is worthy of death. The powers disobeyed the law secretly whilst exposing and "punishing" others. They were no longer worthy to carry out the orders. Mercy came with Jesus.  The new test... he SHOWED us what it all means. The words do not SPIRITUALLY differ. It is STILL WRONG to have other Gods before him and not love your brother as yourself, etc.
                You need faith to get spirit which you also need to understand.

                1. DoubleScorpion profile image84
                  DoubleScorpionposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  So God Changed in how he deals with sin.

                  God Changed...

                  If you can have another God before God, then there must be more than one God...or is it things we hold(worship) over God. If there is more than one God, how does one know which is the right one...If it is things we hold in worship over God, then the average American (about 99%) is worshipping other "gods"


                  Oh and the "Powers" you spoke of which disobeyed God, where chosen by God to lead...To include even Moses...which is why he wasn't allowed into the promised land...But God didn't kill him for sinning, he still allowed him to lead...he was just not allowed to enter the promised land...Others who sinned God killed...

                  1. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    And now you judge God. selah

                    You seem to want to argue over "words". You must use spirit to find out what it all means.  God does not change. His nature and his law are forever. He did change the way he dealt with sin for the sake of man. No one can do it all.  We ALL have sin and without faith in the sacrifice we are truly dead (spiritually) he has a reason for doing A then B. Since my brain cannot fathom the entire picture; spirit relies solely upon God who does know and understand all of it. God does not and will not change.  The spiritual know what that means.
                    Yes, we have many "Gods" e.g., mom, dad, son, daughter,  teacher, preacher, boss, house, car, clothing, sex, drugs, SELF. Nothing and no one more valuable...
                    Not even we treat all of our children the same. We know our kids. We know their capabilities.  As such, God deals with us according to our faith or lack thereof. Oh an as God, he gets to do it like he wants. We have boundaries. Or not...

                    1. DoubleScorpion profile image84
                      DoubleScorpionposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Nah, I am not judging anyone or anything. I am pointing things out based on your words.

                      If it is true that God's Nature and Laws do not Change....Then he is still the same God of the OT and the Laws of the OT still stand...

                      So as a true Christian and following God's laws we should still be doing as the OT law states...Jesus was the sacrifice, so animal sacrifice is no longer required for forgiveness of our sins as was required, but the Laws that dictate what is sin are still in place...

                      Working on Sabbath= Stoning
                      Adultery= stoning
                      Disobedient Kids= stoning
                      Fornication=Stoning
                      Teaching religion other than God's Laws (OT) = Stoning
                      and the list goes on...

                      You keep speaking of spirit to find out what it all means...But then say that no one can know or understand God's ways as his ways are not our ways...Which is it?

            2. Cgenaea profile image59
              Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I have noticed that we consistently speak along the SAME lines. The spirit agrees with spirit in weighy matters. That is why the CHURCH was instructed to not argue over words. That is the thing that breaks off a new denomination.  God has one mind. His people do too. My example is the confrontation of Jesus about the petty bicker about his followers "working" on a sabbath to eat. It was NOT that he "disagreed" with the law... he knew what it MEANT. Not ALL is "expedient" for each and ever little... the CHURCH was warned. God has ONE mind.

          2. Cgenaea profile image59
            Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            EXCELLENT QUESTION!!! smile
            The WRITTEN is WRITTEN for all to see. Jesus told us what it all means together.  He fulfilled the law.  He displayed the law of God. Paul agrees with God. He does not differ from Jesus. He had the spiritual discernment that I keep referring to. Paul knew what the words meant. He was CHOSEN BY GOD to tell us. Paul by the spirit knew the MEANING of scripture.  God allowed him to tell his side of the story.  Paul knew the way. We get a good glimpse of his entire before and after. He was a great example of how to "get" it.

            1. DoubleScorpion profile image84
              DoubleScorpionposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You didn't answer my question...

              I asked...
              Why would Jesus (God), need to use the written word of God to explain himself??

              And Paul used the Old Testament as well...As the New hadn't been written yet...And yes, what he taught and what the Gospels say of Jesus is not the same.

              How did Jesus fulfill the Law? What is meant by that?

              1. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Jesus needed the word of God to explain himself because spiritually, he IS the word of God. He came to DO the word correctly. He came to show us PERFECT and then be sacrificed to atone for ALL sin and act as the only "bridge" to God. The curtain to the "private" dwelling was rent. Jesus is NOW the way. 
                Paul was helping to write the new testament.  smile he KNEW what the OT "meant" he does not differ spiritually. The "meat" is there. 
                How did Jesus fulfill the law??????? He DID it... He SHOWED us what it ALL meant. He cleared all misconceptions concerning it. Spirit knows. God knows spirit.  Jesus displayed for the church God's intent. They no listen...

                1. DoubleScorpion profile image84
                  DoubleScorpionposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  So Jesus, The word of God,  ...needed the written version of himself to explain himself?

                  Jesus came to live the law (The Old Testament law perfectly, But he broke some of those as well) and to fulfill this law just that, not that he did away with it in anyway...This statement also means that Jesus was to fulfill the prophesies of the Messiah...According to Jesus and the Gospels, the Old Testament laws are still very much in place and never went away...(The Gospels were written for Jews (Christian Jews) NOT the Gentiles)...Paul's letters were written to Gentiles and they differ from what was required of the Jews...So it would seem that the rules for Jewish Christians following what Jesus taught was different that what Paul taught to the Gentiles...

                  Pauls was not helping write the New Testament...He was writing letters of instruction or inspiration to the Churches he started..He had no Idea it would become part of the Bible that we know today. Paul never met Jesus...His whole teaching was based on his interpretation of the Old Testament (Guided by God if that is what you wish to think)...But as I have said before, Why does God's word need to be "Interpreted" is can be plainly read as to the meaning if one knows and understand the context of the audience of the day and how authors wrote in those times.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    So Jesus, The word of God,  ...needed the written version of himself to explain himself?

                     Now if that does not qualify as an argument over words... What was given to the Jews was totally misunderstood by them. They wrestled with words too. wink Jesus tried to show them. They mostly refused and killed him. But he got the points across to Paul and Paul broke it down in his letters. And maybe he did not KNOW he was writing scripture but God did.
                    Jesus did not break the law. He knew what it meant (broken record syndrome starting) smile Jesus DID the law perfectly.  He had the correct interpretation of scripture.  He was a master at knowledge of God's intent.

                    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                      Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Some say He was God. Do you?

                    2. DoubleScorpion profile image84
                      DoubleScorpionposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Jesus never talked to Paul...Paul states he never actually met Jesus...So Paul "understood" the Written word...While all the rest of the Pharisee's did not...(Paul was a Pharisee)...

                      Ok so Jesus did the law perfectly, So why are we not still following that law as Jesus did,,,?

      4. Slarty O'Brian profile image86
        Slarty O'Brianposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Them claiming to be christian defines them as such, No other definition is possible, The loosest definition would be a follower of the words of Jesus. That can mean anything including those who call themselves godless Christians who like the idea of love and peace spoken of by Jesus or attributed to him, and ignore the religious teachings.

        Every christian I have ever spoken to has their own angle on the religion and in fact their own version of the religion, bar none. So if they say they are christian they are christian, what ever that means to them. There is not one Christianity, there are thousands of versions out there, one for every claimant.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I tend to agree.

          I might argue about specific points, but the only time I've ever said someone wasn't a Christian was to prove a point with irony.

          Mother Theresa- Christian.
          Westboro Baptists- Christians

          If I had to choose who was the best example of a Christian, I'll go with John Stewart and say Gandhi. He said Gandhi was so ***king Christian he was Hindu. I agree.

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      Emile Rposted 3 years ago

      What specific trait is associated with blonds? I know a lot of people who say they are blond, although I don't consider them to be blond.

      You can't fight preconceived notions. Especially ones that make people feel good about themselves.

    4. wilderness profile image97
      wildernessposted 3 years ago

      Can't go with you on this one, Melissa. 

      The "religion" that was founded as being based on the teachings of Jesus includes murder, torture, slavery and other things unacceptable to modern people.  Even if those are removed from the religion (and for the most part they are seldom seen today), the organized religion itself still contains much that is simply wrong in today's world.  And finally, if we leave out the idea of the organized religion and leave it up to individuals to decide what Jesus taught we will have millions of different concepts of what Christian means.  We see it all the time as Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses or whatever other belief system does not agree with the speakers and those believers are not "real" Christians somehow.

      So maybe a Christian is just anyone that believes a man named Jesus Christ walked this earth approximately 2000 years ago, was the son of God (or maybe God Himself - this is a little fuzzy) and taught people of the time how they should live and what was necessary to enter heaven one day.  Perhaps the idea of Christ being crucified, being dead for several days and coming back to life should be included as it plays such a massive part in the myth.

      Any specifics on what Jesus said or meant with his words are open to interpretation by every Christian; only the belief that Jesus was here and was a god is necessary to be a Christian. 

      Would Christians accept that definition?  Doubtful, as one must believe as they do to be a "real" Christian but perhaps, with time...

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Your statement is a little convoluted, making it sound as if the religion was based on these things. No matter what group you choose throughout time, they all have ppl within them doing wrong. Mankind does as he wills. Christianity itself is pure.

        James 1:27
        Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Does that mean that you view a "christian" as one that does deeds acceptable to you as charitable without regard to their belief in Jesus or God?

          Problem is that Christianity is NOT "pure" no matter how you look at it.  Every single Christian has a different idea of what it means to be Christian - it is as mixed and jumbled as humanity is.

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Would it matter what the civilian thought the law was or would it matter what the judge thought the law was? To be a Christian means to be a follower of Christ... even without a dictionary, it would be hard to argue that much. It's in the name.

            It is up to each believer to seek the truth, I would agree with that.

            Mt 7:7
            Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

            1. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              A "follower of Christ".  As one cannot literally follow Christ around the country, that leaves following his instructions/words as recorded in the bible.  Unfortunately, those words mean different things to different people and Christians go off on their own personal path. 

              Which is why I said that only a belief in Christ as a God is necessary to be considered a Christian - not following interpretations which vary radically person to person.

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                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                The Bible says they will know we are Christians by our love. This might cause some Christians to think they should become a little "airy"... if you know what I mean. It causes others to pretend to be loving in public and act like the devil in private. Christians are human... they are not different in the trials they have to face than anyone else. Sometimes they will rise above and draw strength from their savior and love as they should. Sometimes they will fail. They will go thru times of great trial and suffering... they may even fall away, but it is ultimately God who is responsible for their salvation. On my own, I am not inherrantly good. Not at all. But reaching out to God and recognizing His answers to my prayer, I am able to truly love ppl in most circumstance. But never think you'll meet a perfect Christian... the only one ever was Christ.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Exactly, which is why you fail at emulating Christ.

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                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Some days I don't fail... though I wouldn't expect you to know that. You'd have to be following me around and that would be... wrong.

                    1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Sorry, but your posts show you know nothing about Christ and more about Christianity.

                2. wilderness profile image97
                  wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Then there are exceedingly few Christians in the world.  Or the bible is wrong (or at least the understanding of what "love" is).

                  As a usable definition of what a Christian is, it is a total failure.

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                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Maybe you don't hang out with a lot of true Christians. I have met many and they are lovely ppl. I can always find something wrong with them if that makes you feel better... lol. But that's the point... Christians are sinners saved by grace. They're never gonna be perfect. No man is sinless save one. smile

                    1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      There's a perfect example of Christianity and not Christ.

                    2. wilderness profile image97
                      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      "True Christians".

                      Thank you - I do believe you have just made the very same point I did early on here.  You don't believe as I do, you aren't a "true Christian".  A 100% subjective evaluation of a person and their love - how they treat other people - should never be the deciding factor of whether one is Christian or not.

                      "We see it all the time as Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses or whatever other belief system does not agree with the speakers and those believers are not "real" Christians somehow."

      2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I had a couple of reasons for posing this question and a couple of theories as to how it would play out. My main theory was that Christianity was going to end up being defined by the "Born Again" standards by both Christians and Atheists. I've read through the thread already and I'm dismayed but not surprised to find that as true.

        Slowly, but surely, the definition of Christian is changing to exclude everybody who doesn't go by the fire and brimstone teachings of that ONE subgroup.

        The side effect is unfortunately if you claim the title Christian, you are automatically assumed to go by the teachings of that denomination... even though many traditional Christians don't. As a matter of fact, the whole Born Again thing is relatively new to Christianity in general. Yet older, more established denominations are being ignored in the mix.

        I personally find the whole "Born Again" thing to be bunk. The same with fire and brimstone.

        The second point/theory I was making/test was that with all the arguing about Christians being this or that from BOTH sides on this forum, neither side has the slightest idea of what a Christian IS. I'm curious of how, with this vast gulf of ignorance, how anybody can attack any faith another based on the title. I also don't understand how anyone can defend an entire faith either.

        Since nobody can really agree what it is... except by their own viewpoints or viewpoints of one denomination... it would stand to reason that all sweeping statements either way are stereotypical and innately bigoted.

        1. 0
          Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          *Blue emphasis to the above added by Beth


          You realize that you have set yourself up as judge and jury, judging not only between the denominations, but between the beliefs of the believer and non-believer? You are giving just your opinion (in blue) just as others have given their opinion.

          Some of us *do indeed agree, because we have found a common denominator (the Bible) to build a foundation on. That is not a statement to tear down *anyone who disagrees, simply to say that not everyone is loose-cannoning it. I put my belief wholly on the Bible as the inerrant word of God. I believe that Jesus is the son of God and that we must place our faith in him to have eternal life. Do you believe differently? That is your right and you have the right to share freely your beliefs as well. I feel good about that.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            No, I didn't set myself up as judge and jury... I was pointing out that I believe it is bunk yet I am still a Christian. Therefore can that be used to define Christianity?

            Yes some of you do agree and have found a denominator.... that's why denominations are called denominations. Other people of different denominations obviously don't agree...or they would be members of YOUR denomination.

            I believe Jesus was the son of God in exactly the same way as I believe that we are all the children of God. I don't believe he was the actual biological, genetic son of God, no. My denomination, and several others don't believe that.

            Otherwise, I have absolutely no idea where the hostility is coming from. Unless you truly believe that everyone with a different opinion isn't a Christian... in which case everything I said applies to you.

            1. 0
              Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Ack! Hostility... Im sorry... I didn't mean to come across as hostile at all. It's terrible the way tone is not transferable. No, not hostile, I just meant you, like others have your beliefs and they are simply that... your beliefs. And I fully agree with you on the denominational thing. I highly doubt I share the same denomination with even the ppl whose beliefs I tend to agree with.

          2. A Troubled Man profile image61
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Sorry, but Melissa is doing no such thing, she amongst the other few here who try to emulate Christ don't judge others at all, that is the point. It is YOU and the others who follow the hate cult of Christianity that judge others.



            Exactly. You don't build your foundations on Christ, you build it on the Bible.



            And, that is part of the hypocrisy of Christians who say they follow the Bible, who say they believe it is the inerrant word of God, they cherry pick the Bible to suit their version of Christianity rather than getting the full meaning out of Christs teachings an "understanding" how He actually would have liked folks to behave.

            1. 0
              Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Good morning ATM. I know that you would probably like it to bother me that you would consider some Christians and others not, but to be totally honest with you, you are probably the very last person on earth I would go to to ask their opinion on matters of faith... no disrespect, it just seems an obvious statement considering.

              So post away! I'm just here for a while. smile

              1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Notice you have nothing to say about the points I made? You obviously think they're true. lol

                1. 0
                  Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Is that what you say to yourself? "If she does not respond the way I want her to, she is in agreement." lol... Gotta go to work. Have a good day.

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You're not even responding to the points, yet again.

            2. Cgenaea profile image59
              Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Cherry picking is what you and YOUR chosen ones do. "Take this; Oh! And strike that, it just does not make SENSE."  All of it is necessary for rePROOF. It is cherry picking that troubles you. But it won't be recognized until you have faith to receive the spirit to guide your studies. The brain cannot fathom the father's will; it is too busy with the "worldly/selfy" desire.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Yet, another believer who follows Christianity but not Christ. He would teach you many things, that is, if you were actually willing to learn anything.

                And, you have nothing to say to the points I made, you too, must think they're true. smile

                1. Cgenaea profile image59
                  Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  See? You can't even recognize that your points were responded to. Without spirit you are handicapped in this conversation.  You want to talk bible w/o the tools for proper discernment?  ...won't fly.

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                    A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Sorry, but since spirit has never been shown to exist, your statement is obviously nonsense. For Beth to have responded to the points made, she would have to utilize both reading comprehension skills and syntax, but as we both know, most Christians here have yet to even learn how to use a dictionary.

                    1. Cgenaea profile image59
                      Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Brutal... the claims that you assert are so off-base. I know that I am capable of dictionary reading.  I don't believe you make those claims with knowledge being at the top of your list of "things" to obtain.  Of course we can read a dictionary and decipher how them words go. smile however, we have another ability in addition.  Oh!!! Is THAT your issue?  I know something you don't.  Don't sweat it! It's yours! Just ask. Now since we all know that you have already decided that God is NOT what you want,  "What the hell is your problem?  smile oops wrong OP... LOL

      3. Chris Neal profile image82
        Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Actually, Christianity specifically repudiates murder, torture and human slavery.

        This explains a lot.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          See that's an issue I have... it really doesn't.

          All those things can and have been done by Christianity. All those things have been opposed by Christianity as well.

          Which again goes back to my point that there is no definition of what a Christian is except personal or maybe denominational definitions. So how can you defend a whole faith... when you can't even define it?

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Of course it doesn't repudiate murder or torture.  If it did we would not have abortion doctors or gays killed in god's name, yet both have happened several times in the last few years.  One gay man near me was drug for a mile or so behind a car and tied to a barbed wire fence to die.  Or were those killers not "real" Christians after all?

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
              MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Of course Christians have bombed abortion clinics and of course they have killed gays, blacks, Muslims.... (you name it) in God's name.

              The were absolutely Christians.

              I'm not a big believer in pretending that someone in the same faith as me can't do bad things.

              I will also say that they ABSOLUTELY did those things because they faithfully and religiously believed that was what their faith said to do. It was absolutely their very Christian beliefs that guided their hands.

              No argument here.

              I have seen things done by Christians so devout that they were literally incapacitated by it. There is no way on Earth that I could deny that they believed every single word of the Bible and were acting completely on their Christian faith when they did those terrible things.

              On the other hand, I've seen people equally devout turn away from terrible things for the same reason. I personally know I did. I've told the story before, so I won't bore you with it.

              So my response is yes, Christians can/have/will do horrible things because of their religion. They are Christians... we don't get to say that they aren't just because they do things that other Christians don't agree with... or else no one would be a Christian.

              And yes, Christians have also can't/haven't/will not do horrible things because of their religion. Its hard to judge those numbers because "Christian Doesn't Blow Up Building" doesn't make headlines very often.

              1. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                My point is" no matter what they believe.  They are NOT doing it in the name of God. The spirit of God was shown by Jesus. He said bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you... also, love your enemy. Also do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Also, ye who is WITHOUT sin, cast the first stone. The "killing Christian" is not following Christ. They thought that thing out. Spirit was NOT employed. They know we are Christians by our love.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Melissa is correct, they were behaving that way because they followed Christianity, just like you do. That is why you behave the way you do as opposed to someone who actually tries to emulate Christ.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You sit on the seat of judgment very often.  Are you looking to be God?

                    1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Hilarious. The one who calls us evil says I am sitting in judgment. lol

              2. Chris Neal profile image82
                Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Of course the fact is that people can try to make religious books say whatever they want them to say. And as someone who tried to figure out whether Islam was truly a 'religion of peace' (in other words, from personal experience) someone who is only passingly familiar with the Bible, or the Koran, or the Bhagavad Gita, can assume that reading certain passages out of context absolutely confirms whatever they already think about it (such as that Christianity endorses slavery and genocide.) I've made my statement and I stand by it. If someone wants to debate verses, I'm all there, but blanket statements meant to be self-evident are bad debate, bad logic and bad history.

                Now, having said that, even people who are very familiar with the Bible, or the Koran, or whatever, can have a difficult time and it's also true that many times the person's own bent seems to inform their opinion as much as a straight reading of the texts. I'm not at this point debating who is a 'real' Christian or not, because I think that a great many people who I generally don't agree with make great efforts to figure out what Jesus actually meant by different things He said and did. As these forums demonstrate, nothing is easier than to decree who makes the grade and who doesn't. And Jesus warned us about that.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Or, more precisely, the religious books say what they say based on the actual words written there.

                  ...

                  Sorry Chris, you have already failed miserably to defend Christianity regarding slavery, murder and genocide. The words are there far all to see, so it would be you who is trying "to make religious books say whatever they want them to say."



                  Or, was it actually Christianity that warned us about that? smile

                2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                  MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  But, but, but...

                  I was actually responding to your quote:

                  "Actually, Christianity specifically repudiates murder, torture and human slavery."

                  Which is a blanket statement.

                  I'm not sure that Christianity can specifically repudiate anything. It's not organized enough to have a platform of any type. There are no set values that every single member agrees to. Christianity, as a whole, has no opinion... so it can't take a stand against anything.

                  So you can honestly say that Christianity has caused YOU to repudiate murder. You might even say that your specific church repudiates murder. But it would be a stretch to even say your denomination of Christianity repudiates murder because with very few exceptions denominations aren't organized enough to have a standard set of values/philosophies.

                  Now, with that being said, the issue I have with denying that Christianity can produce individuals who do horrible things in God's name is that it is excessively dangerous to deny that it CAN happen. Instead of looking for the warning signs that these people are becoming dangerous in their zealotness, you separate yourself from the zealot after the fact.

                  If, for instance, a parent reads Deuteronomy 21:18-21 and takes that verse literally. And his her elders also take that verse literally, then how can you claim that they were not true Christians? The were doing exactly what the Bible told them to do. The were following God's word to the letter.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Christ is the firstborn of Christians. He had specific instruction.  Those who follow Christ follow HIS commands. There was no Christ in the OT. Only promises of his coming.
                    ...goat blood everywhere
                    Following God to the letter requires spirit. Jesus has it.

                    1. Chris Neal profile image82
                      Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      +1

                  2. Chris Neal profile image82
                    Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Touche. However, I was really thinking about a certain blue tinged person whose stuff I no longer read when I said that.



                    I understand your point and to a certain degree can get behind it. Where I was coming from, though, was Christianity as a philosophy, not as an organized religion. And those who've truly studied Jesus (and Paul and Peter and John and Jude and James) know that Christianity does repudiate slavery and murder. "Christianity" (for the sake of argument) may indeed have no opinion but Jesus, and Paul, and Peter and James and John and Jude, definitely did.



                    I agree, any belief system CAN produce individuals who do what most people consider horrible things, whether or not the system in and of itself promotes those same horrible things. And for the record, Christianity does not. Your point about Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (and I've discussed the applicability of OT verses to Jesus' teaching elsewhere) actually goes to illustrate what I said about people who don't know Scripture very well. Of course people will do it, and I would be slow to say they aren't 'real Christians' even though I don't think any REAL Christian would actually do that, since Jesus didn't tell us to do that. I also, apart from my personal loathing for George Tiller, do not condone having him shot down in cold blood and don't believe that God literally told that person to shoot him.

                    As for the 'following God's word to the letter,' I know this will seem like a No True Scotsman statement to some people, but which part of God's word? The part meant to apply specifically to Israelites five thousand years ago or the ones meant to apply to all followers of Christ for all time? I ask that as a way of pointing out that sometimes people aren't really doing what they think they're doing.

                    1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Even though it's written right there in the Bible, Chris will spin it out of control.



                      Or, the fact that it has happened, repeatedly, and continues to happen to this day.



                      Uh no, it is the religion itself that teaches and causes good people to do horrible things, that is the point.



                      Chris is in serious denial of facts.



                      And, you do. lol



                      But, that is the issue, there are so few that actually attempt to emulate Christ, but instead follow Christianity, the hate cult.



                      No, it doesn't seem like a No True Scotsman fallacy, it IS that fallacy.

            2. Chris Neal profile image82
              Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Sure about that?

    5. A Troubled Man profile image61
      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago

      There are those who attempt to emulate the man who was said to be Christ and there are those who speak from the religion formed over the centuries called Christianity, the religion that causes good people to do bad things, that teaches bigotry, intolerance and hatred. The amount of folks here regarding the former can be counted on one hand, while the rest speak from Christianity.

      1. 0
        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        That is probably the first thing you have ever said that I, for the most part, agree with (I realize you count me in the latter group, but that's ok, I still agree with you.) smile

        The part I disagree with is the part about the religion itself causing them to fail. As I said, the religion itself is pure... it is to be Christ-like. Where we (Christians) fail is when we allow our flesh to take the lead. Christ tells us to crucify our flesh and to let his spirit reign within us.

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          The religion was founded in the early first few centuries and included torture, murder, etc. as a way to enforce it's beliefs on the populace.  This is "pure" and acceptable to you?  Or has the religion grown with humanity to become what it is today?

          Or is our disagreement just semantics on what "religion" means?

          1. 0
            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Whose teaching is acceptable concerning "religion"? God or man?

            1. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              It being as man is doing the teaching, it had better be man.

              While many claim god is teaching that is not so; preachers tell us how to live, the words of men 2 millenia ago and recorded in bible tell us, etc.  So those teachings had better be acceptable to man.

              And even if god is doing the teaching when it comes time to convert that teaching into actions, those actions are either acceptable to society in general or the student will rot behind bars.  Murder of abortion doctors, for example, is not acceptable whether taught by man or God.  Neither is torture or murder of gays or with holding medical treatment from children.  Although people will claim God told them to do it, society will punish them for it.

              1. 0
                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I could hardly move on past your first sentence as that is where I disagree. It is God's word first, man's interpretation second. Then there's the whole issue of whether or not a man is lead by the spirit or flesh concerning interpretation.

                As far as issues like murdering abortion doc's etc. It always goes back to God's word... and God's word on a whole, not dissected into to verses that can be twisted to support an argument. As soon as you are in violation of God's word, you are no longer following God... as in the examples you provided. At that point, you are no longer discussing actual biblical Christianity, you are now discussing men using God's name to do their own will. This is a common occurrence with any authority from Kings to judges to police officers. Anyone with any affiliation can use the name of someone in authority, but if their actions don't reflect the desires of the person in authority, it is nothing but a lie.

                1. wilderness profile image97
                  wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  As god's words are subject to interpretation by man, it is thus man that is doing the teaching.  Whether men 2,000 years dead or the preacher telling you what god wants.  Now, you can claim God will tell you what He means, but that is worthless as God tells everyone something different.

                  Beth, while you know better, you have fallen into that enormous trap that only you know what God wants - that everyone else either listens to what you have to say or they aren't Christian.  Which is what I said in the very first post in this thread; either get the interpretative values out of the definition or it is of no value as every person will have a different definition.

                  1. 0
                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Huh... thank you for revealing a part of myself to me that I was not aware of. Is it ok if I disagree... cause I kinda do.

                    1. wilderness profile image97
                      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Sorry if that offends you, but you are in very good company here.  Or at least have a lot of it.

                      Your own posts here, talking of "real" Christians as opposed to those that profess Christianity but are not "real" is a strong indication.  That you are only too happy to pop out with quotations and your personal interpretation is another.  Other interpretations are obviously wrong and should be ignored, right?  And indeed, one can often tell a "real" Christian by their interpretations and how they follow what you think the bible says...

        2. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          No, where you Christians fail is when you follow Christianity. Those who are in that category do not know Christ, they only know Christianity.

          1. 0
            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I suppose that is one opinion.

      2. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
        Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        @ATM
        Whom do you know who emulates Christ?  - you have met and know someone?? I am very surprised by this admission! So, even if the story of Jesus is unbelievable to you, you like the main character's attributes?

        1. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I would say Mo, Deepes and Melissa are the only ones here who I would place in that category, the rest of the Christians here follow the hate cult that is Christianity and it is usually those who call these folks non-Christians, yet they are the ones who mostly try to emulate Christ.

          I would apologize to those who I may have missed in that former category.

          1. Cgenaea profile image59
            Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            To emulate Christ is to do as he did. How many times did Jesus tell you that what was "written" is not trustworthy??? We as humans tend to agree with those who agree with us. Hmmm... Mo, Deepes, and Melissa... a VERY telling statement ATM.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Which is pretty much the opposite of you do.

              1. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Your "spiritual glasses" are foggy. smile example please...

                1. wilderness profile image97
                  wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Do you have possessions?  Are you an itinerant preacher?  Have you destroyed temple gates?  Do you do miracles?  Have you healed people?  Do you hold open air "church" services, preaching to hundreds or thousands?  Do you go town to town preaching?  Have you given away everything you own?

                  No?  Then you aren't emulating very well, are you?  More like following what you perceive as instructions from Him.  Or does "emulate" mean to pick those actions/characteristics you find easy and useful and do just those?

                  1. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    See your spirit is... ok, listen. God gave Job a lot of stuff. Do you think he was not a follower of God because of his worldly possessions??? Jesus knew what that word MEANT.  And as for your questions; I am as poor as sandcastles. smile but that is not what makes me a "true" follower.  God does not require us to have nothin (as I)  smile He just requires that not even material comfort come BEFORE him.
                    The term cherry pick is too loosely thrown around. Doing as Jesus is more spiritual in nature.  We do not always do as we should. All humans falter there. God looks at the heart (intent/will/motivation).

                    1. wilderness profile image97
                      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Got it!  (I think, anyway)

                      "To emulate Christ is to do as he did."  actually means to choose those "spiritual" characteristics you find right (never having read His mind or even spoken with Him) and declare that those same characteristics are yours.  That you will try to let those things control how you behave.  If your intent or motivation is pure, the actions won't matter.

                      Kind of what I said, isn't it?  Cherry pick which things Jesus did that you like and behave accordingly?  That "spiritual" is suddenly insterted into "To emulate Christ is to do as he did." doesn't indicate general acceptance of His actions; it indicates cherry picking which ones you will emulate.

            2. 0
              Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              "VERY telling statement " of what exactly??

          2. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
            Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            How kind of you to apologize to me!  Uh no, my intuition tells me you aren't.
            humph.

    6. Cgenaea profile image59
      Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago

      Beth... Beautiful!!! Simply marvelous!!! I am so happy to have had the privelege of reading each and every one of your posts here! I see your "light". I have no idea what denomination you are. And I have NO IDEA what "kind" I am either;  but you are speaking my language!!!  (so to speak wink )
      ...just like Jesus.  smile
      The bible is the common thread in my OPINION as well. I absolutely loved the part about the spirit's interpretation as opposed to the fleshy interpretation.
      AWESOME

      1. 0
        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks Cgenaea, keep the faith.

        1. 0
          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Having read through the thread, I think you missed ATM's point. Those who follow the example of Christ are what the definition originally meant. The religion that has built up is completely removed from what the term implies. And, rightly so. Religion has put him on a pedestal. On display. God incarnate. So far above humanity that his example means nothing because we are so far beneath him that we can only beg his mercy. A pity. Because, if he was God  incarnate, his whole adult life was spent hanging out with the common man. On our level. Why? I think, simply to lead by example. To make his words secondary to his works. It was only through his works that his words were deemed worthy of memory.But if he was God even his example wasn't good enough. Humanity jumped straight in to find a way to go back to religion. So many sit around attempting to find something else that God meant because whatever they believe he did while he was here wasn't quite their cup of tea.

          Christian, or little Christ as the name means, was simply people attempting to walk in his footsteps before any of what you claim the Bible was put together. That Book pulls you away from the meaning of the word. It gives you excuses to ignore the meaning of the word.

          It's funny that those on the outside respect the example of Christ more than those on the inside do.

          1. 0
            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this
            1. 0
              Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Actually, I can broadly sweep most of the Christian community by their defense of their religion. By the references they go to in their Bible is support of their beliefs and by their actions

              I would agree that I can't know who outside of Christianity respects the example if Christ.

              1. 0
                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                If that is how you judge, it's your prerogative. smile

                1. 0
                  Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm not sure labeling it judging is fair. I attempt to look at what someone considers to be one and one, and what their take on two is. And compare it to the values I place on the same conditions. But, even though I'm not happy about the term, it is judgment.

                  I simply hate to see the name of a man whose example was so impressive be used in the manner it is. Religion seems to think he was special, yet we keep seeing a 'yes, but' argument. I can't seem to fathom how anyone can believe God exists, God chose to walk among us, God did a whole lot of  to shit as  example for us since everything written had been perverted in practice; and then turn around and use the perverted interpretations and write more contradictory crap behind him.

                  According to religion, the whole visit was superfluous.

                  1. 0
                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You have examples in your mind, but I can't address them b/c they remain in your mind. You'd have to share specifics for me to understand where you are coming from.

    7. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 3 years ago

      wilderness posted
      The religion was founded in the early first few centuries
      =====
      Me      According to scripture  ( IMO)  this much is true, The religion was founded in the early first few centuries!  There were no "true" Christians until after Christ died.  He had his disciples that followed him around everywhere he taught, but I'm not sure many of them truly believed he was "THE" Messiah. They hoped that he was (?) but did they truly believe? 
            According to scripture, It was only after they saw him after the crucifixion that they were convinced.These believers didn't kill anyone.
      For 100 years the Jewish people went through a tribulation such that would never happen again.
      They were being tortured and killed in ways and numbers far exceeding the of the Holocaust.             It was only after "The Government" established "The Universal church" (326 AD) that Christianity became the oppressors when it was officially declared to be the only acceptable religion for the Roman Empire. And even then, it was the political aspects of the religion which wanted to conquer the whole planet.   The common people just wanted to eat. They did what it took, they followed orders from those in charge, in order to eat. 
           A few hundred years passed before another institution, similar to the first, rose to power that was friendly to the first.
        In the beginning Islam was very tolerant to Jewish believers and Christians. 
        BUT ...  politics enters into the game, and we had the crusades.
        In many ways they have never ceased, though they have subsided. 

        Isn't  this what was prophesied in Rev. 13?   (almost 240 years before it began)
         

      ==============

    8. Cgenaea profile image59
      Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago

      In addition; God did not expect his words to be remembered or quoted correctly by Moses. He gave him a WRITTEN report.  He also allows his spirit to abide within the faithful to assist with proper discernment.  As was already stated, we need the spirit of God to properly interpret his written words.  Flesh has a different desire than God has. One must be on HIS path of truth. None of us possess a true path to God within ourselves. It takes spirit which ALL who truly follow by faith possess.

    9. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago

      LMAO...

      So after 6 pages, we've got a general definition of "A Christian has something to do with Christ."

      And the more specific definition of "A Christian is someone who thinks exactly like I do" from some and "A Christian is someone who doesn't think like you" from others.

      Everyone is arguing specific points of theory. Are those specific points deal breakers? In essence is everyone that disagrees on those specific points in any way, shape, or form no longer a Christian?

      Because just from the representation here, it seems to be a case of everyone has their own view...

      So is only one person in the entire world a Christian?   That should make St. Peter's job pretty easy... although Hell is going to be nothing but asses and elbows.

      1. Cgenaea profile image59
        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        The "way" is narrow. Only a few find it.
        ...asses and elbows it will be...

        1. DoubleScorpion profile image84
          DoubleScorpionposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Melissa,
          We all know what it truly knows what it means to be a Christian...However, since many of us don't wish to live that way, we bend the "rules" to meet how we wish to live and call ourselves Christian and all others are wrong, because if they are not wrong, then we are not Christian...And as Christians we live in fear of the Hell that we have created as punishment for not living as we should...

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            *grins* I don't believe in hell.

            1. DoubleScorpion profile image84
              DoubleScorpionposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              LOL...It is a real place...Our english word Hell is just a form of the Hebrew and Greek words used for Death and/or the Grave....And since we all die, sooner or later...we are all going to hell...LOL

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Oh, in that case I guess I do believe in Hell.

      2. Cgenaea profile image59
        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago

        Leaving it is an acceptable option.  We are not forced to DO it.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
          Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, God is beyond intellectual comprehension. We are lucky to have Miss C who is so full of faith. Thank You, Miss C for sharing and attempting to inspire others in the belief of God. "Knock and the door will be opened." Knocking with faith does the trick.
          Learned a lot From Miss C.

          1. Cgenaea profile image59
            Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            To God be the glory. Tears (you ALWAYS sting my eyes smile ) thanks. But I cannot take the credit. I am an empty broken vessel.  God is a whiz at using broken pieces.  I love his style.  You shine just like him wink

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
              Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I know you know I speak to yer Soul and not yer Ego. I keyboard to educate others, but my aim is to inspire and encourage.
              Just workin' for Mr. Triple O. (see above.)

              1. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                smile he is pleased

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Thank You!

            2. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Pass the Ritalin.

              1. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Sorry, what time do you usually take it??? We can wait.

          2. A Troubled Man profile image61
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Ah yes, I thought I heard the sound of knuckles dragging and banjo's picking.

            1. Cgenaea profile image59
              Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I do believe you.

      3. Cgenaea profile image59
        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago

        Listen very carefully: Christians do NOT kill, torture,  maim, rape, or ANYTHING of the sort in the name of God. That is NOT the nature of God. Old Testament... pesterment... smile  His nature is love. He hates sin because of it. He punishes sin.  HE punishes. He...

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
          Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          ...wants to help us in His way and in His time. If we are open to His help it will come. Without His help we...

      4. 0
        Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago

        Wow!  An interesting, and revealing, discussion to be sure!  Having just finished reading through the thread, I'm going to toss out a few thoughts.

        Labels are so, so, so, so messy!  My daughter has one Caucasian parent and one African-American parent.  Is she white or black?  My husband was raised in the Southern Baptist church.  My chosen denomination is Catholicism.  Which of us isn't a "real" Christian, since the doctrines of our respective churches' are often diametrically opposed?  We have identical beliefs about Jesus, he and I, but completely different views of communion, baptism, confession, etc.  I don't talk to folks about Jesus unless they ask.  Does that mean I don't evangelize, and if I don't, does that mean my faith is phony?

        I know folks who are Jewish - members of God's chosen race - and don't believe in God at all.  So, is Judaism a racial or a religious identification?  I know Christians who are both devout and gay.  So, which is it?  Are they not "real" Christians, or not "really" gay?  Pagan naturalists who don't recycle?  Are they not really nature lovers?

        THIS is what makes defining and labeling such a huge PITA!

        To ATM, thank you for sharing your opinion that I try to emulate Christ.  I do try to the absolute best of my ability.  To those who scoff a bit and imply that you feel that way because I, and the others you mentioned, ''agree'' with you, I might suggest they get to know us a little better...lol  I disagree with ATM - often - but I like him and respect that he often makes astute observations about human behavior and about the faith that I espouse.  Melissa and Deepes and I don't always agree with ATM OR with each other even.  Oddly enough, we've still found a way to enjoy each other and our discussions.  We also don't always agree with other believers.  We generally find ourselves castigated and judged by extremists from all sides - Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, etc.
        I can only speak for myself here, but at the end of the day, I'm at peace with myself and my God, and what others who don't know and love me think or say of me isn't something I spend a lot of time worried about. 

        It's nowhere near impossible to define a Christian, but it's certainly impossible to agree on any one definition.  To more fundamental, evangelical Christians, I'm headed straight to hell because I'm Catholic and I was baptized when I was three months old, and not as an adult.  And they didn't dunk me, they poured water from a pitcher onto my head.  Still others call me lukewarm and wishy-washy because I don't talk to anyone about Jesus unless they ask me about him.  Oddly enough, I've often seen more Christlike behavior from my unbelieving brothers and sisters than from my family in faith.

        There's so much I could say on this subject because it's so near and dear to me, but I'm working on blowing up the internet with the length of this forum post, and I want to leave some room for the rest of you to continue the conversation.  wink

        *I want to add something - I'm also in fellowship with other believers who truly WALK their faith.  They are charitable, kind, compassionate, loving, and wonderful.  They give without expectation of return and love without judgment.  It is these people who keep me from being ashamed to call myself a Christian.  Sadly, they're the ones no one ever mentions.  WHY?  Because they're too busy living their faith to defend it or argue about it.

        1. Jerami profile image79
          Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          WELL  SAID  !!!

        2. Cgenaea profile image59
          Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          The bible is the common factor. We learn all about Jesus, his sacrifice, his commands and his mannerisms in the holy bible. If you feel that the information contained therein is fallacious,  where then do you go??? Secondly, those who do read the bible and realize that we still kill the sinner is WRONG... it is written that the Christian's example (Christ) killed no one and admonished that even those who persecute you are to receive your prayer.  Also, according to the bible,  not everyone who calls themselves Christians makes the cut. It takes the killing of "self" and a desire to do the will of God. I cannot call myself a car because I stand in the garage.  The bible teaches us how to properly become folloers of Christ. And the bible tells us that we can never be perfect in it. The heart is considered by God. He knows who means to follow and he knows who is just trying to be "fashionable" smile our instruction comes biblically. The Lord says, "learn of me." How may we do that without biblical text?  The understanding of it is spiritual. The bible says, "Lean not unto your own understanding; in all thy ways, acknowledge him, and he will direct thy path." Jesus is the ONLY example of how to live the life that God desires. A big problem we all have is that we fail to follow.  We prefer to lead.what we want (our desire) usually runs parallel to what God wants.

          1. A Troubled Man profile image61
            A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            That is why you follow the hate cult that is Christianity, you do not actually follow Christ. Big difference.

            1. Cgenaea profile image59
              Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              How do you know?

              1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Everything you write here is all about Christianity and the Bible, and nothing about Christ himself. You don't know Christ, if you did, you would discard the Bible in the trash and start living as He would have liked you to live.

                1. Cgenaea profile image59
                  Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  You know Jesus? How did you find out,

        3. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I think her ethnicity is defined as bi-racial (if I'm currently up to date on my racial terms), but her race is human.



          Doesn't matter how you were raised. What matters is what you believe.. Besides, whether you are a "real" Christian or not will be figured out when you get face to face with God



          You don't evangelize, and your faith is not phony. But that's a different story




          You said a mouthful here.. I think the key thing here is that even though we don't always agree on stuff, we're not here hurling insults at one another, condemning one another anywhere, nor blatantly picking fights with one another. We respect one another's beliefs (or lack thereof, in ATM's case) and can move on with no hard feelings. Last time I checked, Christ did not condemn those who disliked what he had to say (Thinking about his rejection at Nazareth where he helped who he could then went on his way). He didn't even condemn those who turned him over to be crucified ("Forgive them, Father. They know not what they do"). IJS




          Which is interesting in itself because... You know what, nevermind.. Not relevant

          1. 0
            Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            No, no!  I need to know what's on your mind here.  It can't be irrelevant! tongue

            You're such a tease!

            1. 0
              Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              That's what I do wink

      5. Cgenaea profile image59
        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago

        In addition... the bible says that there is no "in between" category.  You are for or against.  He pukes lukewarm.  There is no mistake about sin. We all know what they are. Sin is sin. From white lies to murder. It is all death to spirit.  But we ALL do it. The difference between the yeas and nays is spirit.  "God just gon hafta deal with me like this cuz he made me like this (sinful)" is UNacceptable.  Taking in the spirit of God is the ONLY way to be acceptable to him. His spirit makes you sorrowful for sin. He can change the habits of a repentant heart. A humble spirit is key. No big I's or little "you's" ATM smile I AM NO BETTER. Whew!!! Maybe you will hear MY story one day. But I make sense out of the scripture,  "He who is forgiven much; loves much." or something like that.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          That is why we don't follow the Bible because it is teaching people to act exactly like despots, you are either for or against. That is not what Christ teaches.



          Again, that is the hate cult called Christianity speaking, that is not what Christ would say or do. You need to unlearn what you have learned and start looking at the bigger picture.

          1. Cgenaea profile image59
            Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Have you read and understood the words of Jesus?

            1. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You need not ask ridiculous questions that have obviously already been explained to you. Try paying attention.

      6. Cgenaea profile image59
        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago

        The BIBLE shows the error in thought word and deed.  I aint speaking my opinion.  I am mostly quoting scripture.  The bible is judge. It is written.  It is not written for just me; It is written for my brother too.  When one does not believe it, and they keep hearing it; seems like they should walk away. I would not join a conversation about Elvis sightings. Especially not to post to the conversants that they are delusional.  It is funny to watch. I know scripture cuts. Is that why you did not read your first paragraphas you typed it?

        1. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Apparently, you did not read it either.. Just as you can quote scripture of what the bible shows the error in thought word and deed, your brother can also pull scripture that can justify their actions.. Since both of you are quoting scripture (which is God's word) which of you is correct?

          I read my first paragraph, did you? or if you did, did you really understand it? or did you just judge it to be wrong (as you so often love to do)? I was asking a simple question as well as making an observation as to how dangerous it can be for you to come along speaking about God's will when your brother is also acting in God's will

          1. Cgenaea profile image59
            Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            You may not use OT sin-pymt scripture to justify wrongdoing. You cannot marry 700 wives. You may not steal, kill, idolize, lie, etc. You may not stone your sister for sneaking her boyfriend in her bedroom window. It is WRITTEN.  plain as day. Jesus told us what to do. Now if I decided that darn Jesus was too soft and I wanna grab some stones, Im WRONG. If someone tells me and I refuse to hear. I am at fault.  And I have consequences to deal with .

            1. 0
              Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Of course.. We are in agreement here.. But this is not the only area where there may be issues with you seeing something as wrong where another sees it as right.. Even look at the OT.. You quoted "treat others as you want to be treated", yet you accuse me and others of bending to get along when we treat the atheists here with the respect we want ourselves while you pull different scriptures that allow you to justify your own behavior as "giving it straight" and pointing out their evil ways. And for the principles that you fall short on, you and others fall back on the Christian insanity plea  "I'm a sinner, this is why I need Christ" Instead of taking responsibility for that sin and striving not to repeat the behavior

              1. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Treating others as I would want to be treated is my "thing" smile so please, if I one time utter the words that God is imaginary and only for the delusional,  please give me scripture that combats that thinking. The word of the Lord is paramount to me; not ME. I am not on trial here. The word of the Lord is. We will stand firmly planted on that; or not. Respect to evil? Consider that. Jesus did not have one who stated, "your God is imaginary." When he spoke the word of God, he was firm in it. Thou hypocrite was spoken often to the ones who interpreted the words of God incorrectly.  Now totally dismissing the word of God, I don't remember reading.  God's word stands forever. I remember that.

                1. 0
                  Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Exactly why I used it.. But it is obvious that it totally missed you. SO on that note, it is obvious that we both have our truths about what is in the bible. All I was doing was reminding you to make sure you were flawless before trying to point out anyone elses flaws. But apparently this concept doesn't apply to you since you are so far above everyone else that you can point out others faults but refuse to look in the same mirror

                  1. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Again; I am not on trial here. It is the word of God that is being picked at. I cannot be flawless in light of scripture;  the scripture tells me that. I am not giving my opinion,  I stand behind biblical text; yes, it hides me smile I cannot be held accountable for biblical text. They are not my words. Truth stands.

                    1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      That is what is called, 'the last bastion of a coward, the last refuge of a scoundrel'

            2. 0
              Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Jesus also showed us what to do as far as treating others with love and respect.. This is what some of us here do, yet you and some of the others accuse us of bending, ear tickling, and (my personal favorite) watering down the bible in an effort to be liked. I don't know how many of the others here "like" me nor am i really concerned about that. I do want to be respected even in disagreement. I respect quite a few people here that I personally do not care for. But I still show them the same respect they show me (and in come cases still more)

              1. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                God is no respecter of persons. His word stands forever.  We get with that or we do not. No in between. Respect for God is important;  or not. Hmmm respect God or man...uh I guess you know where I stand. And I know where you stand. Jesus did not kindly whip the wrong doing in the temple. That would not have been Godly.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Christ was a respecter of people, Christianity is not. You can either follow Christ or follow Christianity, but don't make the mistake that they are one and the same.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Surely you jest smile

                    1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                      A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Yes, I understand you believe this is a joke. That is why you don't understand, because you follow the hate cult of Christianity and not Christ himself. That is the real joke.

                      1. Cgenaea profile image59
                        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        And you follow...???

                      2. Cgenaea profile image59
                        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        And you follow...??? Help me out here.

                2. 0
                  Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  On the contrary, you have proven and shown that you know and understand nothing about me, yet still claim more truth than I do about God (which you said yourself before you don't even know or understand his mind).. They hypocrisy is so funny.. your words are hot but your actions are cold. And you have the nerve to call anyone else tepid?? There is nothing further for us to discuss.. I know you stand on the side that Christ spoke against as well.. The prideful ones that claim moral and spiritual superiority over others. But that sin of pride is every bit as evil as that which you accuse others of.. As such, you are the same in God's eyes

                  1. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You have failed to recognize my humility in light of the words that I speak that are  in the bible.  I am not the one I elevate in these conversations. I am a sinner too. But I recognize truth and stick with it. I can't waver because scripture slaps my face at times. It is all good. I agree with God. He has ONE voice. "Learn of me"' is a directive. Where must we learn? The "faulty" bible???

                    1. 0
                      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      I know there would be a "but" half way through that post followed by an I am right and you are wrong. Glad you didn't disappoint.

                      You started by saying he has failed, followed by look how humble you are and then a but... I am right because the bible says so.

                  2. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Pride? It goes before destruction.  I am sure that statement is correct. Pride works against God. What you see as pride is actually scripture.  I stand firmly on it. When I am wrong I stand corrected. But I have seen no correction for the bible in this conversation.  The bible is right. You quote it. You know. I have not boasted about Genaea. I simply quote scripture and point out errs concerning the understanding of it. My directive. Now if it is your directive to soothe the heart of the unrepentant unbeliever; you are doing a fine job.

            3. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Is that what you actually believe Christ was trying to teach people? No wonder you don't understand Him.

              1. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                It is no surprise that you understand him as you do.

        2. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          The Bible is not the judge, that is not what Christ taught. You are only following the hate cult of Christianity, you are not following Christ. The Bible is Christianity and Christianity is a hate cult.

      7. Cgenaea profile image59
        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago

        Agreement

        1. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Care to elaborate? Yes, I agree with some of ATM's points, but not all of them.. I agree with a lot that you say, but not all.. So is that telling as well?? Or is it merely the concept that a Christian can agree, have good conversations, and get along with someone who has a different belief (or lack thereof)?

          I'm trying to get a clear understanding of what exactly you are saying regarding what is "Very telling"

          1. Cgenaea profile image59
            Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            He stated that three people actually exhibited Christ-like behavior. The three he named seem to be of the opinion  that some of the bible is falsified information and not trustworthy in some cases.  But what could he know about Christ?  He does not believe in any of it and biblically, that is almost as detrimental as half believing it.  Agreement. We tend to side with those who agree with us.  He picked the three Christians he "liked" best... consider that.
            Jesus was not "politically correct". The people hated him because he gave them truth they were not ready for/ did not want. I can expect no different. I think the bible says that you are blessed when people hate you for his namesake (or something like that) I forget what it says about those who "bend" to "get along"

            1. 0
              Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Unless I misunderstood the question, let me remind you of the question that you asked ATM in the same post that prompted this discussion





              So was this a sarcastic and rhetorical question that you asked earlier? Because if this was a valid question (which it is because Christ did mention somethings about what is "written" is not trustworthy), then why would this be an issue? Obviously, you don't follow all of the bible as well, so what does this say for you? It says that either you have not read all of the bible, or it says that you also discard scriptures in favor of what you want to do when it suits you. Let me use another quote of yours from an earlier response to this thread (page 10 to be exact) and show you how you don't follow them



              "Bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you.. Love your enemy""

              Looking back at some of your posts to ATM, Rad Man, Melissa, Me, Mo, (the list goes on).. Your very words to each of us contradicts these scriptures as there is little to nothing even reflecting the love of Christ in your speech


              "Do unto others..." Well, you might actually follow those considering that you have been getting back exactly what you have given to others. You have been condescending and attacking to others in your posts yet call others evil when you feel that they are attacking you.


              "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".. Let's see.. considering all of the stones you have been throwing at others, either  you are without sin , Which would make you Christ (who is the only one without sin),  or a hypocrite considering this statement



              If you are a broken vessel, then you are not perfectly sinless.. Which means you don't even follow what you supposedly "believe" or don't trust in it enough to follow it "in come cases"







              He also picked the three Christians that treat him with the respect that they want themselves. Unlike those Christians who demand to be respected for their beliefs yet disrespect him often.. consider that




              But he still treated them with respect when he did it. He also did not tall anyone names or beat them over the head with his words. When they were not accepted, he shook the dust from his sandals and moved on to the next thing. He did not stand there and keep hurling insults... Do you emulate that behavior??



              Once again, here you are implying that we "bend" to "get along", which is a judgmental statement (Which goes against Matthew 7:1-5) Yet another example of you not following the Word. I can show you biblically where the actions of myself, mo, and Melissa line up with the bible when it comes to our treatment of ATM and the other nonbelievers here regardless of how they speak to us.. It's all over the new testament.

              1. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Ok, feeling.  That's good. smile I have no doubt that all of my posts are acceptable. When we have gone back and forth from the utterly silly to the very close to blasphemous my words are warranted. Truth out-trumps feelings.  Unless you forgot,  Jesus actually whipped a few people for changing the purpose of the  house of God. No, I am not God. I can't be. But, again you have "judged" my actions and "thown stones" smile sorry to have hurt you.  Truth stands.  A scripture that says by Jesus that it (scripture)  is not trustworthy is funny.  But you failed (with all your quotes and citing of scripture) to cite. I definitely missed that word from Jesus.  But I do understand your obvious anger toward me. Popularity seems to be important to you. You should have MANY "points" now. And you may even feel better about your agreement with your clan. Truth stands. It is written and will not pass away. Even if it convicts. (Which is supposedly what happens every now and then.) Laying down to wishawash to be liked is dangerous.  (That is written too) is that the part you deem unfit???
                It is perfectly ok to call it as you see it as well. But your bias is showing.  Jesus told the truth. Hurling insults is NOT what I do. But being constantly attacked for "complete faith" is what I get. That attack is always met with firm truth. I'm sure it causesva few bruises.
                I am clear because the word of the bible is used to do the whipping (that is exactly how it works) I have thrown no stones; but scripture. Yes, I know you were cut a time or two. Please give me an example of a stone toss and I will point out its verse and chapter. The posters here can get brutal. They make completely false statements about God, scripture,  and me. I simply allow the evil's velocity to bounce off me, and yes there is usually harsh consequence to the insult hurler. I am not contending with those who want God. We are handling poisonous material.  Biblically. Bless them that curse you is different from the battle with evil forces that blaspheme and disrespect the father.  I can handle everything that is said about me. smile it worries me not. But I am glad that at least this is not your brand of quarrelsome, I cannot handle the argument with a "Christian" it becomes a petty war over words which breaks one denomination from another because as we know God's children are divided enough already.
                To me, all of scripture is needed for reproof. Please do not neglect the word of Jesus that stated that some of it is tainted or untrustworthy. I need that.

                1. 0
                  Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Here are three examples here of judgement you have shown me... At no point have I shown you any anger at all. If you misinterpreted anything I've said as me being angry, I'm sorry, but that's a misinterpretation (Which can happen when you are reading words)

                  As far as popularity being important to me. You have no idea of what is important to me other than my belief in Christ and the Father. I try to emulate the example of Christ. That people have received it well is only a bonus (just like Christ gaining followers while he was doing his work was a side of him living a life helping others)


                  I hold no bias toward you at all. Nor anyone else. I understand the difference and respect the differences of belief even in disagreement of application. you did not cut me with the bible.. I believe the bible..

                  Here in itself are three examples of you giving a judgmental opinion of me with no understanding of me and my beliefs. Same as you have done with others

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                    MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Dont forget..

                    "Cherry picking is your "baby" you want the entire kingdom to fit into YOUR box. You do not hear "lean not unto your own understanding." Your argument confuses you."

                    "smile he really likes words"

                    "Seems as if you do a bit of fantasy as well"

                    "You sit on the seat of judgment very often.  Are you looking to be God?"

                    "You re reading the bible with bias against it. That is what confounds you. You are severely mistaken in your Godly opinions and you refuse to learn of him"

                    "The Lord could walk into your house and perform 2 miracles. In your line of thinking,  you would call him David Spade. "

                    "You sure take a lot of time and patience to respond to posts. You don't use much creativity though. "

                    "The three he named seem to be of the opinion  that some of the bible is falsified information and not trustworthy in some cases."

                    "He picked the three Christians he "liked" best... consider that."

                    (This one was particularly funny to me... )

                    " And you may even feel better about your agreement with your clan."


                    I'm gonna stop here... only because I generally ignore her posts and actually reading them in detail is making me want to be an atheist to avoid guilt by association.

                  2. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You call that judgment?  That was opinion.  I am not judgmental.

            2. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, the Bible is falsified information, it was not written by Christ, it was written by other men well after Christ was gone. The three I named are folks here who also understand this and realize that whatever is written in the Bible cannot be taken as truth. They also understand that being a Christian does not mean following the Bible, that it actually means to follow Christ in how He behaved, in who and what He respected, in what He understood about human nature, that we all possess traits for how to get along with one another, but we just have to use them rather than turn to scriptures for advice. That is what he taught.

               

              Obviously, I know and understand a great deal more about Christ than many of the so-called Christians here, who only regurgitate verses from the Bible rather than understand what Christ was trying to teach people.



              Exactly, you side with those who also regurgitate the Bible and who don't actually understand Christ, that is entirely the problem.



              No, I didn't. I picked the three Christians who understand Christ and understand that Christianity teaches good people to do bad things, that is why they don't follow it like you do. They may not ever admit Christianity is a hate cult, but in their minds, they know it to be true based on how so many others who follow it and how they behave as a result.



              Again, try to get away from what the Bible is saying and try to figure out what Christ was saying. You might actually learn something and begin to garner some respect for a change.

              1. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                You have said a mouthful.  I hope your people are listening.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  It's too bad you aren't listening.

            3. 0
              Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Oh, Cgenaea, I do wish you would refrain from making statements about those of us you don't know.  You have absolutely NO idea what I believe about the Bible.  I have never - here or anywhere else - flatly stated or remotely implied that any of the Bible is ''falsified."  If you'd like to comment on what I think, say, or believe - then ask me so you aren't just pulling your own assumptions out of thin air.

              1. 0
                Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I don't think it's thin air she is pulling them from.

                1. Cgenaea profile image59
                  Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Right! Though I detect a faint sarcasm;  I know YOU know where I pull them from. You do know the word of God. I have not lied. I told the truth.  Regardless of the fear of upsetting my "brother"the word of God does indeed upset many.

              2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                As her religious philosophy seems to be that she is the only true Christian... she must make assumptions.

                After all, it is burdensome, even for one who considers themselves God, to know the actual philosophies of those that are evil... which seems to be everyone but her.

                I'm sure she's basking in the adorement of all those beneath her, however. Her posts are so frequent and long that it seems unlikely that there is much more time to do anything BUT bask in said adorement.

                I wish that I had that amount of free time, alas being evil has me so busy that I think I'll have to settle for basking in the adorement of those in my real, horribly ungodly, life.

                1. Cgenaea profile image59
                  Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  I have PLENTY of time... smile The Lord made it so. I am grateful to be able to be free and available.  You are not correctly seeing me and what I do. You see scripture.  That is where your problem lies.  You attribute my words to me because scripture shows us our state. That is unsettling for some. And since I'm the one pointing out scripture it is assumed ti be my words.  I say often,  it's not what I say, it's not about me; scripture.  My start with you; my end... scripture.  That is the place that tells me all about Christ.  By the way, what tells you about Christ?

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    So you admit to be unwilling to think for yourself? Tell me what do you do when you are confronted with conflicting biblical information?

                    1. 0
                      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      You haven't been listening.. There is no conflicting biblical information.. She knows and follows all of the bible and is allowed to tell us how wrong we are as long as she backs it up with scripture but we cannot tell her where she is wrong and use scripture because whatever scripture you and the other atheists are dismissed because you lack the spirit to understand and whatever scripture another Christian brings up doesn't apply to her because it was talking about someone else.. I do wish you would pay attention

                      1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                        A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        Ah yes, the mental disorder we lack, I forgot about that.

                      2. Cgenaea profile image59
                        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        The bible corrects all who listen.  That is what the written word is for. You tell me that I am not as kind asJesus was with sinful thoughts and ideas. But I am. He did not pet the sinner.  He rebuked. He expects us to do as he did. Jesus was kind to the sinful woman at the well. But what do you believe his response would have been if her response was. Sin no more??? God made me sinful.  Or, aint no God, Man!

                      3. 0
                        Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        Yeah, Rad.  Sheesh.  Keep with the class!  wink

                    2. Cgenaea profile image59
                      Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Try me... see what I do with biblical "conflict"  smile
                      I admit that I am unwilling to "think" for myself.  God has the final say.

                      1. 0
                        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        Matt 19:26 says “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.“
                        Judges 1:19 says “And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.”

                        All things are possible = could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley. Meaning not possible.

                        Matt 13:31-32: ” “the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed which…is the least of all seeds, but when it is grown is the greatest among herbs and becometh a tree.”

                        The mustard seed is not the smallest seed and never becomes a tree.

                        But since you admit to not being able to think for yourself. Why bother?

                  2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                    MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Maybe you should use all that free time the lord gave you to do something useful. Volunteer work pops to mind. Healing the sick, feeding the needy, etc.

                    Or is the spirit of Christ telling you that he would rather you sit on your butt all day arguing in a small, hidden religious forum on a writer's website and telling others that follow him that they are wrong?

                    'Cause the spirit of Christ tells me to get off my ass and do something useful most days.

                    1. Cgenaea profile image59
                      Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      The spirit of God directs me because I acknowledge him in all I do. I am RIGHT where I am supposed to be. smile now if he directs you to get off your butt... do.

                      1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                        MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        So that's basically saying you do absolutely nothing to help anybody. Do you really believe that's the spirit telling you to NOT help anyone and NOT do charitable works?

                        Jesus REALLY tells you to not do anything but argue online? Or does the bible say that?

                        Or can you only find that passage in the bible that says "Sit thee on thy ass and judge my followers on Hubpages" only appear when you are reading with the spirit?

              3. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Ok, I'll bite. What do YOU believe my error is concerning the scriptures? Please give an example.  Do you too believe that I am in err for consistently quoting scripture? Oh and where do you see me as prideful or arrogant.  Specifically, please. Anyone else willing... please. Specifics

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                  Motown2Chitownposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  There was no bait to bite at, but, uh...okay.  I said nothing to you regarding your errors about Scripture.  I have no issues with Scripture no matter who is sharing it.  Again, you seem to be seeing things in what I'm saying that simply aren't there.  If I feel discomfort with what you have to say, it's because of the superior and condescending tone in which it is delivered.  And true humility (since you've pointed out SEVERAL times how humble you are and how it's all about God) doesn't generally lead a person to repeatedly point out how humble he/she is.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Well, when my actions are deemed ungodly,  I need to check. The bible is superior and actually can feel a bit condescending. But that is my bent; scripture.  I can't quote scripture with an unsure voice.  I don't know how. I quote scripture.  If misplaced,  I will correct it. Since you have no problem with scripture (that I speak) then I see no problem we should have between us. Thanks for the response, I needed to know. I am not beyond reproof.  The word of God is.  I always check myself. So far, the spirit approves.

                    1. 0
                      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      The spirit approves? Of course your spirit approves as it is the one you listen to telling you that you are correct. Question is though, which spirit are you listening to? Also you are talking about the spirit, but have you checked THE WORD? We have tried to show you where the word shows you wrong in how you apple but you dismiss our showing of the word as not applicable to you because you are following the spirit.

                      1. Cgenaea profile image59
                        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        You are calling me puffed up because I have no sugar to sprinkle on the words of God. You tell me that I err in my tone??? But NOT the words of the bible.  My "tone" is faithful.  Not wavery. I can handle that. Now do you have ANY example of my superiority sound???

                    2. JMcFarland profile image92
                      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      But you only quote the parts of the Bible that you like and that you agree with.   You do not heal the sick.   You do not give all that you have to the poor.   You do not reach out to others in love.   You spend your time telling people who have devoted years and years or research and study that they are wrong while simultaneously admitting that you have never done that level of study or research.   You contradict yourself from sentence to sentence within the same post and talk yourself in circles then call other people names when they point it out to you.   You set yourself on a high horse in judgements of atheist and believer alike.   You are not a follower of Christ.  You're the equivalent of the priests that Christ called vipers and hypocrites,  so obsessed with the letter of the law that you completely miss the meaning behind it.  According to scripture,  jesus said that in the same manner you judge others,  you shall be judged.   In light of that,   I feel sorry for you,  so obsessed with trying to be superior that you've lost sight of the message itself.

                      1. 0
                        Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        I presented this already.. She said it didn't apply to her. It was for those who misinterpret scripture.. Or something like that..

                      2. Cgenaea profile image59
                        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        You back to God? smile congratulations! I speak whatever word necessary or expedient at the time. I "like" it all.  I have not held anyone to my standard.  I speak from the bible.  I believe what I say wholeheartedly.

                2. 0
                  Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  No one has said that you err in presenting scripture.. Where the error lies is in the tone in which you present that scripture. you present it in a tone of superiority over others. You also have repeated dozens of times how humble you are. Who are you trying to convince, us, yourself, or God? True humility does not need repetition as it shines through no matter what you do. To constantly tell others that they are wrong and you're right does not show humility. it shows pride and a desire to elevate oneself above where they should be.

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You hit the nail right on the head. I notice this often and not just of her. It goes to show the lengths the mind will go to get what it wants. She wants to feel righteous, superior and humble so she convinces herself she is all three. That's why there is so much conflict in what she says and does. I'd be willing to bet that if we looked into her life we would find all kinds of things the God of the bible doesn't like.

                    1. 0
                      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      No need.. She has revealed some things herself.. Then of course, like some others, instead of taking responsibility for those actions and turning away from them she falls back on the safety net of the Christian insanity plea: "But it's okay.. I know I'm a sinner, but I'm saved by grace." the problem is that God is not pleased with someone repenting of a sin then going right back to doing the same thing.. The bible mentions this.. It's like a dog returning to its vomit. They take in so much of what tastes good they regurgitate it to purge it then returns to eat the vomit no matter how tainted it might be because they still remember how good it was to them the first time

                      1. Cgenaea profile image59
                        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        It is such a blessing to see this type of conversation. We all are sinners, is that your point?  Telling the truth of scripture is likened to vomit licking??? smile I cannot be sinless without the spirit of God to "cover" me. The sacrifice is what that was all about. The bible says that he who says he has no sin is a liar. I tell the truth.  No sugar.

                    2. Cgenaea profile image59
                      Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Yes!  That is so with all of us. When you believe,  your outcome is different.  Speaking the word of God without bias and unfettered does not equal superior mindset. I am sure that the bible is powerful.  I speak it. How do you find a superior tone from me? I speak bible.  I do not speak genaea.

                      1. JMcFarland profile image92
                        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        That's a deliberate lie,  and everyone recognizes it but you.

                      2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                        MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

                      3. 0
                        Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        You speak nothing but Genaea. Everything you preach works for you. Are you holier than thou? I seem to remember you have a bunch of dogs and a bunch of children, but no husband. I'm not judging as my beliefs don't judge, but yours do.

                  2. Cgenaea profile image59
                    Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Now, if I say you are wrong;  there is scripture to back me up. I do not pose as authority. The bible is superior to me because that is where the unmistakable truth is. I have no truth. That is why I do not give my "opinion" so much. I cannot speak of myself. I would be dead at hello. smile  I speak bible.  You know,  they told Jesus he was acting superior too. smile he told them the truth.

                    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                      MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      You never answered my question... so I'll pose it again...

                      Why are you ignoring the word and the spirit by not spending time doing good works?

                      I think we can all agree that Jesus's spirit and actions were all about helping others. I can also pull plenty of the word out saying that you will be judged by your works.

                      So why are you exempt from that? Is the spirit telling you something contradictory to the slew of verses that instruct you of this... Is the spirit telling you to NOT do something that Jesus specifically said to do and showed with his actions?

                      1. Cgenaea profile image59
                        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        Sorry.  I am right where I am supposed to be. I must've forgotten to state that earlier smile this is good work. You all seem to be on a path to correct me where I am wrong. I want to be right. I need correction for my evangelism to transform into ministry. Any suggestions?  Be "nicer"? Unsurer? More flexible? Please show me the way to truth.

                    2. JMcFarland profile image92
                      JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      You use scripture to prove that you are right,  and others use scripture to demonstrate that you're wrong.   You ignore that scripture in favor of your own interpretation.   Why do you think that is?   Because you're looking for justification for your own behavior so you listen to your own spirit?

      8. Cgenaea profile image59
        Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago

        Hmmm whatever happened to that first paragraph...

        1. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Let me quote the bible here..  Iron sharpens iron..

          Besides, you believe in treating others how you wish to be treated.. I'm sure you also believe in reaping what you sow.. You planted a negative seed. You are now reaping the harvest.

          1. Cgenaea profile image59
            Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Planting a negative seed is what I refuse to let go without biblical correction. I am harmless;  the word of God harms... "self"
            Lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he will direct thy path. I firmly believe that is true. I acknowledge God; not feelings or popularity.  Jesus was hated for his truth.  I am also "hated" for his truth.  The bible told me I would be. It seems by that statement that if I am "liked" for the word of God, I am telling it wrong. But that may be a bit hurtful to some.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You wouldn't that because you don't know Jesus, you only know Christianity.



              No, you are not hated by anyone. The Bible says that because Christianity is a hate cult and teaches people to hate others for not following it. It is no different than a despot telling his followers that everyone will hate him for his truth.

        2. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Notice that the Christian will never allow themselves to act or behave like Christ, but instead they will turn to the Bible, the hate cult of Christianity and shift the burden of responsibility over to it. They will even admit the Bible does indeed does the whipping, that it tells of harsh consequences to those who refuse to follow it, that they are evil.

          Again, this is not what Christ taught or wanted of his followers to behave.

          1. Cgenaea profile image59
            Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Do you not know that Christ upheld scripture?  He also told us how it is to be regarded and considered. I am not at fault for using scripture.  It is my directive. Feel as you wish.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              That is impossible considering scriptures was written long after He was gone. You are not listening to Christ, you are only listening to Christianity.

              1. Cgenaea profile image59
                Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Oh!!! Now I see... Jesus said, "it is written" a few times. He even sat in the temple with the priests poring over those written words. You are yet mis-taken.

                1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Do you actually even know what you're talking about. It doesn't appear like it.

      9. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago

        You know it is very telling that someone who professes to follow Christ and be judged by their fruit will ignore requests to show that fruit.

        Jesus spoke of such false prophets.

        You will know them by their fruits... or lack thereof.

        I encourage all reading this who want to walk with Christ to carefully consider any one who professes to speak with the spirit of Christ yet has nothing but words to show. Christ warned over and over that words without deeds were empty.

        Anyone who professes to know the will of Christ, yet shows no Christlike behavior, is surely speaking with a forked tongue.

        1. Cgenaea profile image59
          Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Can YOU give me an example of my ungodliness?

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
            MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Can you give me an example of Christlike behavior that you exhibit?

            I haven't even made the suggestion that the fruit you bear is rotten... I'm saying you don't seem to have any fruit at all.

            1. Cgenaea profile image59
              Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Wow I remember saying that... I guess you do too smile uh, I speak truth. It has been admitted by my opposers. I just don't put enough syrup on it. That is not a problem.  This conversation is brutal.

      10. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago

        And you realize that we are encouraging her behavior by responding to it?

        Maybe if she didn't get the feedback/conversation that she is obviously desperately seeking, she would be forced to leave her computer screen and actually seek meaningful relationships with others.

        I really do think some volunteer work would help her. She could grow spiritually-which I think would be very very good for her- and actually find some companionship and proper social interactions. There seems to be a disconnect between what she thinks she sounds like and what she does sound like.

        The only way to help with that is to have human contact.

        Anyway, I'm going back to not reading her posts now. I do wish you all would stop quoting her. I keep finding myself being drug back into her drama.

        1. Chris Neal profile image82
          Chris Nealposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Although I think I know who you're talking about, I don't for sure. I am only responding because it reminds me that since there is a person whose posts I don't read, whenever I check back into this forum I get lost (back around page 13 was the last time I could easily follow) and it makes it difficult.

        2. 0
          Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          But as Christians, we are called to help each other if our actions are not lining up. We are not encouraging her behavior, IMO. We are more trying to show her a different way to present the truth as well as show her how our method of reaching others is lining up with the word of God as well as opening minds without compromising our beliefs or the word. It is up to her whether she recognizes our efforts or not.. Either way, We did our part to have open dialogue. This turned into more of a discussion rather than a battle

      11. 0
        SirDentposted 3 years ago

        Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
        Joh 14:7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

        Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
        Rom 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
        Rom 10:15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
        Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

        Who has believed?  Who has obeyed?

        The Word of God is like a sharp two edged sword, meaning it cuts both ways.  It hurts when you are cut.

        You want to know what it takes to be a Christian?  Unwavering adherence to the Word of God.  A life of dedication to God, through Christ Jesus.  He is the daysman Job spoke of, the one who can reach down to man and reach up to God. 

        You have asked what good deeds Cgenaea has done, but if she tells you, then you will say she is bragging.  None of you really know what good anyone has done but just doing good deeds does not make a person righteous.  You can only be righteous by confessing Jesus Christ as your Savior and doing His commands. 

        Recently my son went to Columbus, Ohio to help take and distribute items in a homeless camp.   He can't wait to get to go again.  This is a good work for him to do.  He is only 16 years old.   He was baptized at age 10.  When I see how people are treated in this thread, I wonder, what would I do if my son was the one being treated like this? 

        Here is the gist of it.  God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  John 3:16  God gave  everything for all men and women, ever boy and girl.  He chose all to be saved, but will not go against your will to save you. 

        Many of you are against preachers because you have a rebellious spirit about you.  Rebellion is wrong and a sin in the eyes of God.  The first sin committed was rebellion against God by Satan.  Look where he is now.   Stop stirring the pot and if you believe in Jesus, that's great.  If you don't believe in Jesus, that is your choice.  He still died for you that you might have life and life more abundantly.

        1. Cgenaea profile image59
          Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          You are always on time!!!  I hate I didn't see this earlier,  but it is great to have this fire-quenching word of God now.  I felt kinda bloody smile he knows! He understands! He sends comfort! Awesome God! smile
          I am so glad to be his.

        2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          No, actually I wouldn't have said she was bragging. I asked a question, fully expecting some sort of answer. As there  was none, I assumed that there ISN'T one.

          I don't really consider, IMO, evangelism as a good work in and of itself. See, THERE is why I spurned the Baptist Denomination. To me the entire philosophy says "You don't have to do anything but believe... and all it takes to be a good Christian is to make more Christians that don't DO anything.

          It always seemed to focus on doing the bare minimum to save your own ass. In this case the bare minimum seems to be flapping of a cyber-tongue.

          It takes NOTHING to copy and paste a verse. NOTHING. And to speak it takes even less.

          To me, Christianity has to be more than that. A Christian should be compelled to make the world a better place... not to save their own soul, not to gain followers, not to earn a place in heaven or avoid hell... but just because that's the ESSENCE of following Christ. Otherwise, why bother?

          Faith, to me, should be about being a better person. THAT is the reward, not everlasting life. What good is that if it means heaven will be filled with selfish, lazy people who cared for nothing more than ensuring their own cloud.

          How is that Christlike?

          Now, to that end there are a few Bible verses that really have changed the way I live my life. And while I rarely throw verses around online (after all, there are plenty of free Bibles at the touch of a button) I'm going to quote one.

          James 2:14-17
          "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

          That's pretty powerful. Faith-without works-is dead. It doesn't describe the works as preaching either. It specifically describes them as giving food and clothing.

          Why are you trying to help those in need by speaking hollow words? They mean nothing to those who are cold with their bellies empty. Even if you COULD go to heaven just by speaking those words, even believing them, to what ends? What good would it possibly do to ensure a place in heaven if it meant that you left another person cold and hungry?

          That whole thought process, which I DO believe is the spirit of Christ guiding me, is the reason I will never set foot in a Baptist church again. They were telling me I didn't have to help those people, that I just had to believe. The were telling me something directly opposite of what Christ had shown me.

          1. 0
            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Faith without works is dead. A very basic teaching.
            The Bible agrees with this point of view.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image61
              A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Works without faith is far more important and actually gets things accomplished. The Bible is obviously wrong about that.

              1. 0
                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                opinion, once again

                1. A Troubled Man profile image61
                  A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Fact.

      12. 0
        SirDentposted 3 years ago

        Eph 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
        Eph 1:19  And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

        no one can understand the Word of God until the eyes of understanding have been opened.  Sp many claim this and claim that but most have no clue what it entails.  They rely upon their own private interpretation and get others to agree with them.  The Bible states, Many are called but few are chosen.

        Have you ever thought about what that really means?  Many are called, Jesus calls out to many, in fact He has called out to everyone who ever lived and are alive now for it is not the Father's will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 

        Have you ever noticed how the prophets of the Old Testament lived?  They kept to themselves almost constantly.  Why is that?  is it because their messages were constantly rejected?  is it because no one wanted to be around them?   They lived what they preached.  Isaiah went naked as a testimony against Ethiopia. (just one example) 

        out of here for the night

        1. 0
          Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Thank you for your contribution.

        2. Cgenaea profile image59
          Cgenaeaposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Niiiice...

      13. 0
        Beth37posted 3 years ago

        I am going to take one recent catastrophe, Katrina.
        I am going to point to the help of the church... God's church, not a specific denomination, to show clearly that the ppl of God, though never perfect, make great effort to be the hands and feet of God to a world in need.

        The methodists:
        http://www.umcor.org/UMCOR/Resources/Ne … --Teamwork

        Northridge Church (no clue, Christian or possibly non-denom?)
        http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/67725841.html

        Catholics
        http://www.americancatholic.org/news/katrina/

        Apostolic
        http://www.nac-usa.org/connect/mission- … elief.html

        United Church of Christ
        http://iym.quaker.org/programs/ClearCreek_Biloxi.html

        I do not belong to any of these denominations. The list goes on and on as I know ppl who personally went down there, with their children, and sacrificed their time, finances, and even safety to serve those who were hurting. I do not agree that the church does not put their faith into action.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          LOL. Sorry, but your religion has nothing to do with people sacrificing their time and effort to help other people. The list goes on and on...

      14. 0
        Beth37posted 3 years ago

        The facts speak for themselves. Have a good day ATM.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image61
          A Troubled Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, they do, despite the fact you believe otherwise.

      15. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago

        I'm sure that the food is just as nutritious whether it comes from the hands of a Christian or an Atheist. Warmth is warmth no matter who lights a fire. A house built by an atheist provides exactly as much shelter as a house built by a Muslim. A coat provided by a Hindu covers just as well as a coat provided by a pagan.

        Faith doesn't change the effectiveness of good works, it doesn't change the outcome a bit. Those in need are helped by the act... not the philosophy.

        1. 0
          Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          The point of the post was to refute the implication by ATM, that Christians had only faith, but no works.

          And though I agree with your main point, I would say that the motivation of love, or concern for your fellow human being is a much valuable gift then someone who might serve for less noble reasons... and of course there are those who would.

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            If the motive of helping others is to secure a good place in heaven then that's selfish, if the motive is to help other at the expense of one's self then that would be noble.

            1. 0
              Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I doubt the motive would be to help others at the expense of oneself, though that could certainly be the outcome of serving others. I agree with your first statement though.

              1. 0
                Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                You don't think someone would help others at their own expense?

                1. 0
                  Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Of course I do... it's just not an actual motive, it's an outcome or a result.

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    The motive being to help someone in need.

                2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                  MelissaBarrettposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Most help that is given is at the expense of one's self. I can't think of one instant where it's not.

                  1. 0
                    Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    There are some people who think that by doing good deeds they are getting a better place in heaven. So they are doing deeds for personal gain. For some it's best they continue along this path as they are at the very least attempting to help others regardless of their misguided reasons.

                    I could be wrong but I also believe she is suggesting that only Christians of her nature can be compassionate which I have already shown her that is not the case, but she is sticking to it.

                    1. 0
                      Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                      Ephesians 2:8-9
                      8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
                      9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

                      As you can see by verse 9, earning your way into Heaven is in direct opposition to the teachings of the Bible.

                      And yes, you are wrong about the latter. Its no more my belief than the point I was trying to make which was simply that I believed it was better to serve out of love than to serve for any other motive.

                      1. JMcFarland profile image92
                        JMcFarlandposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                        Vs.

                        Titus 3:8
                        James 2:14-26