The Burden of Proof is on Believers

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Valerie Fposted 14 years ago
Again with the blanket generalizations. Sigh. Some believers have Scripture and some facts. Some believers have Scripture, facts, and logic. Why should those who use them be lumped in with those who don't?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Um - what definition of the word "facts" are we using here? Your irrational beliefs are not backed up by any actual facts, so I assume you mean "assumptions in a religious book"?
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well I guess it is still open to anyone who wishes to contribute facts to the contrary. Not bible quotes though.
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Rhianni32posted 14 years ago
The burden of proof rests upon each individual making up their own mind as each of us decides what "proof" is and isn't.
To some a 10 time forwarded chain email saying God is real is proof enough yet on the other hand God could appear in front of a person and they still wouldn't believe it.

Neither side has proof at to the first origin of life. Evolution as an adaptation process from life evolving into new sure that seems pretty proved. But until scientists create life then the theory of an asteroid crashing into the Earth bringing amino acids to start life is as proven as a bearded white man waving his hand and creating everything.

Creationists currently have the biggest trump card in...
"Why couldn't God use evolution as the tool to get everything where he/she wants it?"

I've read and been in many religious threads and they always seem to turn into a "You are wrong so therefore I am right" debate. That seems rather ironic in a thread talking about proof. The proof of an idea being right is independent of other ideas being right or wrong.
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Rhianni32posted 14 years ago
One last thing...
In times like this I prefer a quote I heard from the Dali Lama in his "Path to Tranquility" book paraphrased..

"What science proves to be non-existent we must believe to be non-existent.
But what science does not prove to be non-existent is different and we must be open to the POSSIBILITY of it existing"
(capitalization emphasis is mine).
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atomswifeyposted 14 years ago
It took scientists centuries to discover the conditions necessary for life to be sustained: water, light and atmosphere. But in the Bible’s story of creation, the requirements are all there, written thousands of years before science even began.

Can any of you explain how that was possible?
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  David Bowmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps you should re-read the creation narrative. God creates the universe and the Earth before he creates light.
  
  Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
  
  1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
  
  1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
  
  We know that light existed long before the Earth came to exist.
  
  Then in Genesis 1:5 it states "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."
  
  How could there have been an evening and a morning if he created the sun and the moon eleven verses later in verse 16?: "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."
  
  In verse 1:11 it states that plants were created. This is before the sun was created in verse 1:16. Modern science tells us that the sun existed long before plants. How could photosynthesis have begun without it?
  
  Yes, Genesis is fraught with things that contradict everything we know about the sequence of events that took place on Earth.
  
  Now I think you're the one that has some explaining to do.
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Lee Booleanposted 14 years ago
Yikes, isn't it weird how Everyone in creationism is an expert and people who studied for years adit that we are just starting to understand?

Nobody ever said that we now know everything about how we got here, which is why you can study the subject at just about any university, and expeditions are still getting funding.

Science has never claimed to be complete or infallible, which is why its so "easy" for it to be debunked, scientists expect to be scrutinized, and unlike some people, don't stick their fingers in their ears and start singing hymns when somebody questions them.

the theory(ies) of evolution are not a straight line, but as far as observation goes, its more sensible to believe there is a cycle of life, of which man is part than to think that we were put here as is and wreak havoc as we feel our deity sees fit. Its time for mankind to grow up, online technology, the same that gives the faithful their daily dose of smoke up the naught, is making borders disappear. Its vital that we find some common ground, but that common ground will never be religion, since "facts" will always prevail like "Our god is the only real one and knows everything". Your magic book was written over Milena, many parts were not good enough for print. What you have is a best of album, not proof! The Lord of the rings is also consistent, over three very long volumes, its not magic, its good penmanship!
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
“The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: Be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge.”
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Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago
A minute ago you were laughing at me for saying the earth is an oblate spheroid.

Now you have cut and pasted some one else's words that agree it is indeed an oblate spheroid.

And you (some one else) is arguing that a model representation of the earth can reasonably use a sphere instead of an oblate spheroid.

But the bible is written and does not have pictures or models in it. And it says the earth is round. Which is neither a circle, nor a sphere.

So - even though we both agree that the bible is wrong - you are arguing that it is actually right. And you had to steal some one else's argument at that.

Why?
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No no no Mark, I said the earth is not an oblate spheroid and I stand behind that.
  To say the earth is an oblate spheroid one would have to agree then that it is shaped like an MM. I do not agree with that, the earth is not shaped like an MM. It might be slightly shaped like one, as in after you measure it but it is not shaped like an MM!
  
  Too, as I stated in another post, when you factor in that melting glaciers are to blame for the for growth or bulge in the equator, then you can assume accurately that the earth's round shape or perfect sphere described in the Bible has since then somewhat, changed into a SLIGHT oblate spheroid. But all of that is really ridiculous since we cannot see the earths Oblateness or flatness as it can only be measured. And the shape then that we see and reason is that of a sphere!
  
  But in Biblical reference to the term "round" the Bible would be true. But you could I suppose argue with it and say its false since it did not give any specifics to the measurments of earth. Though I think one could argue, that if they had the capabilities and knowledge to perform such a task, that perhaps back then, not experiencing the climate changes which we do now, due to global warming etc. That they might have concluded for themselves back then that the earth was a perfect sphere even in measurement of it.
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atomswifeyposted 14 years ago
Also, when you factor in that
Accelerated melting of Earth's glaciers is to blame for the gain in equatorial girth, then one can assume that the shape of earth has changed as a result.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
@atomswifey
You wrote
Billiard balls, marbles, ping pong balls, and other smooth spheres are the best representation of the Earth's true appearance.
hmmm, ok Mark and Liam, and you were saying????

I think, only in first grade you can compare Earth with a ping pong ball !
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So you would then use the MM shape as a model for the earth? I think you should run with that then tantrum! You could make a fortune I am sure in the "globe making" industry with that! LOL
  
  It's appearance, how it looks is that of a perfect sphere!
  
  Oh my gosh I think I have a headache in my eye right now over this debate which is so completely stupid I can't even begin to rationalize why I am even engaging in it!
  
  LOL
  
  I am going now
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Better have your blood pressure checked. Nothing's that important you know.
  
  Hope you are feeling better. I say this as a humanist, not a christian. See I can still care about others without the threat of hell hanging over me. Go figure.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
The burden of proof is not on the believers. Believers give our burdens to him. The only burden on believers is supposed to be to set an example
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There you go. And by the example being set - what is a reasonable conclusion?
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My conclusions comes from what I have seen and heard.
  My conclusion comes from my personal experiences and happenstance.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  You guys don't believe in straight answers do you?
  
  Oh well - at least it causes plenty of fights.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do not have any conclusions that will satisfy you.
  I do not have anything that could possibly convince you of anything. I can not convince you that seafood is delicious unless you already believe.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am not looking for conclusions that will satisfy me.
  I do not wish for you to convince me that seafood is delicious.
  I already know that some of it is and some of it isn't.
  I do wonder why you are trying to convince me that the invisible pink sea horse is really there if I wanted it to be hard enough.
  And the seafood actually exists.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do not care if you believe in pink horses, or if you like seafool at all. Why do you care if I believe in pink horses or a God that does have relationships with some people
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Because those people keep telling me I am a fool and will live in eternal pain if I don't start believing. They also push this silly garbage at me every day - in the street, on the TV, with leaflets on my car, starting numerous forum threads, etc etc.
  
  And this ridiculous belief is responsible for holding us back from our true potential. Plus I do not like being spoken to in such a condescending tone as comes from people who think they have an invisible super being speaking into their head.
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  video lostposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  you people already showed your true potential in the highest number of crimes. be proud of it
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Making it legal to have sex with children and rape women does not really count as reducing crime.
  
  Most of the muslimists I have met in person are homosexual. That is a crime in your culture is it not? Why are there so many homosexual muslimists in that case?
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  video lostposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There are no such kind of Muslims and if there are then they are name sake, they even join the filthiest of all organizations called as Freemasonry.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think that a true believer would try to beat their beliefs into any body,s heads. A misguided Christian might? Like I've said before "believers" should get their story together before we post it on every tree and telephone pole. That is who we should be working on
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Can you name an atheist society that has met its true potential- in any good way? There was extreme regulation of the arts and media, forced abortion and sterilization, rampant child abandonment, grisly persecutions of Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, and political dissidents ranging from false arrests and engineered demonstrations to outright murder, and allowing people to starve while maintaining a facade of prosperity, among other things. I agree that there is something holding us all back from our true potential. I have just seen too much evidence that it's politics and greed rather than religion.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There has never been an atheist society. But if you want to talk about christian societies let's talk.
  
  We can start with wiping put the indigenous populations of the USA, Australia, and South America. Taking children away from their parents to be "adopted" by good, upstanding white christians.
  
  Then we can move on to slavery etc..................
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  video lostposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You forgot. MATERIALISM, HUMANISM, COMMUNISM, SOCIALISM CAPITALISM are all the societies who belong to atheists and are responsible for WW1, WW2 and even for the future WW3.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes all but a handful of extremist muslims have the truth, the rest of the planet is wrong, because your delusions say so!
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Sorry sock puppet, We have the most reported crimes, not the most crimes, or crimes per capita.
We do not hide behind lies. Try to pull your stats out of your fundamentalist religious based societies and they do not even have a list half the time.
Condemning the whole world, now that should work as a peace strategy. Your ignorance and lies about science have been pointed out before. You are an apologist for hate and fear.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
In 1994 Stephen Hawking argued that there is 'no place for a creator', that God does not exist. In his quantum cosmology.
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  video lostposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  any reference ???
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Onusonusposted 14 years ago
All I need is Abraham and his big jagged rock.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
We are proud that it is public knowledge in our free society. Something can be done about things that are known.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
Mark; Next time they accost you
ask them if there is only one truth
Why are there 10,000 different versions of that one truth
That might make em stop and think???
Probably not !
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't work. They are immune to any suggestion that they are wrong and will defend it to the death. Literally. This is why I think religion is such a very bad thing. I read that book and came to a completely different conclusion than most "believers" seem to have come to.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
If we could get rid of 9,999 of those 10,000 different interpretations you wouldn't have as much ammunition to fire at us ya think
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I bet you have the best one - right?
  
  But to an extent - the fact that you guys are always fighting over which is the best one make it pretty clear you are all wrong.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
I gotta get up in a few hours so ... later
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
tell em that they should read scripture about sowing seeds on barren soil and that they should quit wasting gods seeds. Sinful to waste Gods seeds
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Doesn't work. They do not listen. I have been trying to tell them that for ages. But - using "scripture to interpret scripture," you can pretty much make it say whatever you want.
  
  Just on this thread - a whole new meaning for "turning the other cheek." Which does not mean turning the other cheek and asking for more. It means violently arguing against a perceived attack and passively/aggressively pretending to "forgive" the other person.
  
  I keep on saying - if christians behaved the way their book tells them to - we would not even be having this conversation.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If everyone was who they wanted to be or say they are this would be a better world.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Agree.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Amen to that....oops
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's never meant asking for more. It's not very Christian to request that someone continue to sin.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  Guess you haven't read this one then. Or you are too ignorant to understand it. Good luck joining the armed forces to kill people by the way. I hear that is a very christian thing to do and I hope it works out well for you. More souls for jesus. I assume any one you kill will go straight to christian heaven?
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have read it. It says explicitly to go the extra mile for someone who asks for help, to give extra when someone asks you to give, but not specifically to ask that a person who assaults you does it again.
  
  And once again you jump to false conclusions, your tendency to ignore possibilities in attempting what passes as deductive reasoning, your flagrant bias proves you are not a very qualified judge of rationality. Maybe I'm not looking to go into active combat in the first place. Maybe my intent is to help victims of war and natural disasters rather than to kill. If I have to kill at all, it is only to stop a greater evil in progress.
  
  Let me tell you something about most of the military I've been privileged to know. They willingly put their lives on the line not for signing bonuses, a GI bill, personal advancement, to engage in gratuitous violence, or whatever, but to protect you and defend your rights, including your right to behave like an ingrate and repeatedly talk out of the wrong orifice.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That was an awful comment to make Mark!
  
  First of all, you should be grateful there are people who bravely put themselves in harms way to protect and serve us all!
  All of the freedoms you enjoy today are because of that service!!!!! If the criminals of the world were left to their devices YOU would not even be here! Remember that!
  
  Of course it also true that without God's love and mercy you would not be either!!
  
  As far as whether or not she is to be put into the position of having to defend herself and her country against OUR enemies, the Bible is clear on this,
  Those that live by the sword shall die by it!
  
  VALERIE:
  You continue in your pursuits to serve, protect and defend, and remember that there are a great many people all over the world who will stand and support you! People who unlike Mark here will APPRECIATE your service and dedication!!!
  
  I have some scripture for you as well:
  The Bible has established that lawful force to exercise authority, up to and including deadly force is acceptable.
  
  In Romans 13:4 God's word says that the government is a minister, a helper to those who do what is good. But to those that would do evil, they should be afraid; because the government does not bear the sword for nothing.
  
  In the time that the book of Romans was written the sword was carried by the Roman soldiers. The Roman soldier was charged with protecting the citizens of Rome, and upholding the laws of Rome. In many ways the Roman soldier was the equivalent of the modern day military service people and law enforcement officers.
  
  The Roman soldiers were given the authority by the Roman government to use force, including the sword which represented deadly force in order to exert the Roman government's authority.
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Valerie Fposted 14 years ago
Thanks, but I'm not going in for the appreciation, either.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I realize that. My dad served 20 years girl.
  I grew up in a military household.
  The service you provide is for your country, not the appreciation from it.
  
  But it really gets to me when people like him who obviously do not know a thing about that kind of dedication and love, criticise it.
  
  Plus, I thought his comment was so very wrong on so many levels! I don't think many people would disagree with me on that either.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I would.
  
  Jesus did not say "turn the other cheek" then blow them away with an M-16 or AK-47.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was also speaking to people who were not in those positions to execute those rights which are in fact, GIVEN BY GOD!
  
  Oh yes, God Himself in the scripture I quoted and many many more gave that right to governing bodies, to the people who wear those badges of honor, those badges of courage.
  
  You people really do not make any sense to me!
  So I suppose a police officer shooting a drug dealer is wrong too???
  
  Please!
  
  Get over yourselves!
  
  You people who think you are in such a high moral authority???! And then quoting scripture you yourselves have no clue about nor do you even believe in!!!!
  
  Self righteous hypocrites all of you!
  
  And if I sound too harsh, too bad! The truth is the truth!
  I call them as I see them!
  
  You Liambean along with Mark I am sure would not have the guts nor the fortitude it takes to fight a fight like our soldiers are! And so you stand on the sidelines and scream in your so superior tones how immoral it all is! Like oh yes, you are so perfect and righteous in morality that you can stand in judgement of any them? Please!
  And too, even to the degree that you even challenge God Himself??!!!
  
  Give me break!
  
  Righteous anger??? You best believe it!!
  
  Why don't you use those knees God gave you once in awhile and bow down on them and beg, yes I said BEG for mercy from the God who created you?
  And while youre down there thank Him too for ALL of the brave men and women who fight, and DIE for you!!!!
  
  The arrogance on this forum staggers me
  
  And before you even think of it
  I already have...
  
  YOU: "and you call yourself a loving christian?!"
  
  Me: "Absolutely!!!!"
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  well, actually, anyone, when confronted with a threat to their personal safety, or to their family, home, or property, would have no problem manning up and defending it. that is the survival instinct kicking in. i have and have had loved ones in the military, and even if i didn't, i appreciate their sacrifice and thank any soldier i happen to meet.
  
  but God is removed from the affairs of Man, remember? he does NOT intervene, as he allows them to exercise their free will.
  
  if i saw foreign tanks rolling in right now down my street, i would get my guns out and prepare to defend not only myself but my neighbor. humans are just like that in a crisis - we help each other. or we could just start praying, but i prefer the direct, proactive approach.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And God says in His word that there are those in authority and those who exercise and are given that authority to carry out mans justice.
  Also, "Those that live by the sword, shall die by it."
  
  You said it there "as he allows them to exercise their free will".
  If God then chose not let or allow someone to exercise their free will that would be God exercising His!
  As in the 6 day war! Look that up btw, very very interesting things happened during that.
  
  Also, God has exercised His will many a time throughout the whole of creation!
  
  We are to exercise our will according to what His will is. If we don't then that too is our choice.
  
  Just because we have the use of free will does not then BIND God to having nothing to do with us.
  
  And uhm, why not both? Prayer and being armed? LOL
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  well i would feel a lot braver with a rifle than a prayer book
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To cosette: thats probably because you do not fully understand the power of prayer.
  
  Again, look at the miracles that took place during the 6 day war.
  
  And I would pose to you,
  What if you had no rifle? What if you did and it jammed? what if you ran out of bullets? Any one of those things has happened and does happen so, what then?
  
  I think most people put into a life or death situation call out to God for help. lol
  
  For some people sadly, it is the only time they ever talk to Him.
  
  And please for everyone reading this, dont slam me with "well I almost died and I didn't!"
  lol
  I said, MOST people not all.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just saw this. I'm a U.S. Army veteran. Honorably discharged. I advanced four pay grades in three years. I'm also fifty-seven. I've seen a lot. A LOT!
  
  One thing I see constantly is someone like you who thinks s/he knows every damned thing while demonstrating that s/he knows absolutely nothing.
  
  I don't steal. I don't cheat. I don't take what is not mine. I work for what I have and work hard at that. And for all of that I don't need a personal savior to do the right thing by my fellow human being.
  
  There's nothing superior about that. Nothing. In fact it costs me a lot, because, quite frankly my dear, I'm in the clear minority.
  
  So the next time you decide to tell someone who and what they are, you might ask before leaping to conclusions.
  
  WRONG!
  
  Why would I challenge what I don't believe in?
  
  No I challenge you who feel you are not doing your duty to god unless you are telling the rest of us that we MUST believe, we MUST bow to what we think is imaginary, we MUST see things as you see things. We MUSTN'T do anything of the sort.
  
  YOU ARE WRONG.
  
  I live in a free country. I can believe as I wish. If you don't like that then it's just too damned bad.
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  um...you are quoting "cosette" but i didn't type that. you got your quotes mixed up.
  
  please correct that. i wouldn't talk like that to a fellow hubber. thank you.
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This did suggest to me that you think people join the military to commit reprisal killings, against Jesus' prohibition of retaliation.
  
  I did not know that you took the verse out of the context, removing it from the preceding two verses in Matthew which made it clear that "turning the other cheek" prohibits retaliation.
  
  Considering one of my favorite canonized saints put up a fight when a neighbor tried to rape her, it's easy where I get the impression that the Christianity makes a distinction between fighting in defense and fighting in retaliation.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That it suggests something like that to you does not mean that I think people join the military to kill others. M-16; AK-47? Whose military anyway?
  
  What I was saying, and you apparently missed, is Jesus did not say turn the other cheek then kick some ass.
  
  I joined for a lot of different reasons. Killing others was not one of them.
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I hadn't finished the post you quoted.
  
  Turning the other cheek and then kicking some posterior is not turning the other cheek. It is retaliation.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then where did you get this idea?
  
  Where do you get this?
  
  Did Jesus say you are allowed to keep someone from hitting you? Where.
  
  Did Jesus say you should defend others with violence of your own?
  
  Chapter and verse please.
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The very definition of retaliation itself- striking back after the fact. You're not turning the other cheek if you hit back.
  
  John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."
  
  Luke 22:35-36. Even those who do not interpret the verse to arm up literally take it to mean Christians have to be prepared to encounter hostility.
  
  Also, funny thing about the Church canonizing a saint who fought off a rapist, if Christianity is so opposed to fighting in defense.
  
  John 2:13. Jesus himself used physical violence to drive the moneychangers out of the Temple.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You've taken the verse out of context. Here are the verses both before and after the one you quote.
  
  12: This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
  
  13: Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
  
  14: Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
  
  In this context it's quite clear, to me at least, that he's not talking about self-defense.
  
  Funny thing about that particular verse. Jesus was telling his disciples what was going to happen, in a round about way, when the Sanhedrin's guards arrested him for heresy. When he was arrested there was no violence from Jesus. In fact Jesus' actions told the disciples to "back down" during the arrest.
  
  A little farther down in that same chapter this;
  
  47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.
  
  48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?
  
  49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
  
  50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
  
  51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.
  
  Jesus stopped the violence by healing one of the very people who'd come to arrest him. That's an interesting act of self-defense.
  
  In fact, consistent with his message all along, to love your enemy; to love each other.
  
  Jesus never said he was the son of god by the way, always referring to himself as "the son of man."
  
  Funny that you are citing "The Church" so many religious freedom seekers were trying to get away from when they came to this land.
  
  John 2;
  13: And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
  
  14: And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
  
  15: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
  
  16: And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
  
  The scourge could just as well have been used to drive out the animals not necessarily the people. Regardless, Jewish law forbade merchandising within the temple. Jesus didn't kill anyone certainly and the people he was driving from the temple had broken Jewish law by being there selling goods.
  
  I think you are bending these passages to justify an attitude of retaliation when the message is quite the opposite.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ok look, In the old Testament we learn of an eye for an eye. In those times that was the law.
  But then God seeing that this was not just or right for everyone made it so that those in authority and those subject to that authority would each have a place, not being condemned for their actions in executing or otherwise exercising that authority as it pertains to the laws of man!
  
  Christ did not stop the vilolence when He was arrested! The vilolence continued. And it continued as a result of Him being the messiah. The saviour. Jesus KNEW this violence had to take place. "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed".(Isaiah 53:5) Jesus used their violence with a purpose.
  Peter lopped off that ear without giving any regard to that purpose. He jumped the gun so to speak.
  Did Jesus turn to Him and say, Peter! Don't do that! You should "love" this soldier? No. He simply picked up the ear and healed the soldier. Moving on with what had to come, His purpose.
  
  Then in Romans we see where God instructs yet again about authority, rulers, government, law enforcement having the right to bear the sword against criminals, law breakers and those that choose to take swords against will die by it!
  
  Everyone has their place in the Bible
  1. Those that are in position of authority, that write or constitute the laws
  2. Those that the authority uses to exercise or execute justice, those like law enforcement officers, and those that serve in the military
  3. Those subject to that authority (the rest of us, in other words)
  
  But I challenge you on this even further
  Can you find me one single scripture where Jesus said to any one of the disciples, any one person ever that the roman empire or the roman soldiers themselves were wrong for executing people?
  
  When Jesus stopped the people in the street who had cornered the prostitute and began stoning her for her sin, Jesus said, Let he who has no sin cast the first stone". In this case, Jesus was telling those subject to the law (GODS), that none of them were sinless and had no right then to carry out that justice (GODS).
  
  Now if the case had been that the law of land had been that one could be arrested for prostitution, or even killed for it, stoned for it, would Jesus had said the same? Only if it was the same group of people enforcing that justice. Not though if it had been a soldier/law enforcement officer, those put into that position to carry out justice (MANS) according to the law (MANS)
  
  So, in short an examination of the Biblical teachings pertaining to those in authority, those executing that authority and so on, you will find that they are justified in their actions!
  
  Now, as far as Jesus calling Himself the "the Son of Man" I could on and on with this post but I will not. Look for yourself:
  http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/son-of-man.html
  and here
  http://www.egrc.net/articles/director/a … _1101.html
  
  And as far as Him not calling Himself the SON OF GOD? I befg to differ:
  
  Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
  
  "I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
  
  And then,
  Taken from http://douglawrence.wordpress.com/2009/ … on-of-god/
  
  The name “Adam” means “The Man”.
  
  In Genesis 3:15 God promises to eventually send a redeemer who will be the male offspring (son) of Adam … “Son of (the) Man“.
  
  The Hebrews would have no doubt that Jesus, applying this term to himself, was most certainly declaring himself to be none other than the promised Messiah.
  
  But the Jews (or the gentiles, for that matter) would probably not have expected the Messiah to also be the Son of God, since that detail wasn’t clearly defined, according to their limited understanding of the OT scriptures, which described God as “one”.
  
  Jesus personally set that matter straight when he described himself as the Son of God … and that was enough to get him crucified … perfectly fulfilling God’s salvific plan.
  
  Do you see?
  It was Jesus saying He was the Son of God which got him executed. Saying he was the messiah, claiming to be God.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  so God made a mistake then?
  
  ok, God did instruct his children to pay Caesar's things to Caesar and God's things to god (to respect and obey the laws of the land), that's true. now how about this?
  
  Luke 23:34-35 - i'm sure you are familiar with that scripture.
  
  someone needing forgiveness implies that they did something wrong, right?
  
  AND the Ten Commandments are in the new testament, one of which is Thou Shalt Not Kill.
  
  well how were Adam and Eve supposed to parent the human race then without sexual desire? if they hadn't eaten the fruit from the tree would they just wander around the garden admiring the flowers and tending the animals but not having sex? wouldn't they get excited watching animals going at it?
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Gee thanks a lot cosette. I just had to clean coffee off of the screen and keyboard laughing at your response.
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not talking about self-defense either. I'm talking about the defense of others.
  
  Oh, and Wordscribe, the onus is upon anyone with a position worth supporting to back it up as much as they can.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
What if a sky fairy intervened????
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  RKHenryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh now that's funny.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
Well I almost die ,but I didn't !
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  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I so held onto restraint and didn't say that..
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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Valerie Fposted 14 years ago
To turn the other cheek means we're not allowed to seek reprisal, even proportionate reprisal. We're not allowed to demand payback. It doesn't mean we aren't allowed to act in defense of others. I am allowed to keep you from hitting me. In fact, putting one's life on the line for others is,well, rather strongly encouraged.

As for my role in the military (assuming I get through basic training), don't act like all any of the military does is active combat. You'd have to be willfully obtuse to pretend there aren't plenty of support roles outside of combat, or that those people in BDU's rescuing people and delivering supplies in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina weren't National Guard.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  More BS from the peanut gallery.
  
  There are a number of schools of thought on "turn the other cheek." None of them mean for you or anyone else to defend themselves. One is that if you are slapped backhand turning the other cheek means you'll be slapped with the palm. A strike that would have been delivered between equals. Another school of thought was "in the face of violence to not retaliate OR defend yourself." Many early* Christians took this later stand.
  
  I was in the military. You aren't telling me anything I don't know. Once again an assumption that makes an "ass" out of "u" and "me."
  
  And who, pray tell, is the obtuse one here? It sure as hell isn't me. I do know this. The fastest way to start a war is to hand a fanatic a weapon.
  
  The solution is two-fold. Don't allow fanaticism or don't give them weapons.
  
  I might also remind you that Jesus said Mathew 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" - King James Version
  
  Good luck with basic. Maybe you'll learn some humility in there too....hopefully.
  
  * Early as in first or second century A.D.
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As for learning humility, I'm not sure you did.
  
  That being said, it lists right in my own New American Translation Matthew 38-39 directly under "Teaching about Retaliation." There is a difference between retaliation and defense, which is why in the early Church, even before Christianity was legalized in Rome, it was permissible for Christians to serve in the military. There are also enough passages even in the Gospels to prove that Christianity was never meant to be a strictly pacifist religion.
  
  And you still haven't taken back your own assumptions about why people enlist- why there are even Christian chaplains in the armed forces. Are the people they serve "not true Christians" for being in the military? Who are you to judge their relationship with God?
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I made no assumptions about why people enlist.
  
  If you feel I did then once more QUOTE ME! I repeat. Show me where I made the assumption that people join the military to retaliate. You can't. I never said any such thing.
  
  I'm not going to sit here and let you play "Glenn Beck" with me. It's not cute, not clever, and certainly not honest of you to do that.
  
  I know why I enlisted and no I won't share that with you; you haven't earned that from me.
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Valerie Fposted 14 years ago
So, Liam, you of all people should know better than to assume that people join the armed forces to conduct reprisal killings.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I never said any such thing. And if you feel I did I insist that you find it, quote it, and explain how you got "join the armed forces to conduct reprisal killings."
  
  And since you won't be able to. I expect an apology.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And this really looks like a bad joke, after what you just said
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You Madam, are a liar.
  
  See 9/11 thread. http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/21295
  
  Good luck with the non-reprisal killing. Hope that works out for you. How many dead people do you expect to get?
  
  Jesus would be turning in his grave. If he had one.
  
  People like you have turned what could have been a positive force in the world into a violent, hate-filled fanaticism, and the sooner you realize that your ridiculous beliefs cause nothing but strife and conflict - the better for all of us.
  
  Armies exist for one reason only - to further the economic goals of the richest 0.0000001% of the country they act for.
  
  And you are either lying to yourself or being wilfully ignorant if you think any different.
  
  Be all you can be?
  
  A grunt shooting people for oil money?
  
  Jesus would be proud of you. Do I need the sarcasm smilie?
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cosetteposted 14 years ago
liam, please edit your post.

you are saying you are quoting me (cosette), when you are actually pasting someone else's words and attributing them to me.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for clearing that up, I was utterly surprised
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mikey9923posted 14 years ago
liam Quick question who or what do you belive in. Because being in the armed forces for that long . You must of been in some hairy situations. So who did you ask for protection? It couldnt br GOD because you stated that you dont belive in him.So who did you ask?
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I asked my brothers in arms for protection and asked myself to do the "right" thing to make sure they were protected by me. Once again the "golden rule." Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
  
  You have to understand something. Once you join the military you have little choice in what you have to do. Little or no choice in fact. The strongest person on the planet is not the one who can kick ass or pick up a rifle and blow someone out of their socks.
  
  The strongest is the one faced with that choice who refuses to participate. Refuses to injure or harm another. Refuses to perpetuate the wrong thing that someone else started.
  
  THAT is what Jesus was talking about.
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cosetteposted 14 years ago
FOR THE LAST TIME I DID NOT WRITE THAT - ATOMSWIFEY DID. PLEASE EDIT YOUR POST AND READ NEXT TIME BEFORE ATTRIBUTING OTHER PEOPLE'S WORDS TO ANOTHER HUBBER.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Damn. You are in one damned big hurry aren't you? Lighten the "F" up will ya?
  
  If fixed it. Now go take a chill pill.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  this happened to wordscribe as well. Pacal Votan did the same thing to her. I wonder if it's not on purpose ?? People can't be so dumb ?
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, when you have
  it's pretty easy to lose track of who said what.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually I may be impatient too, but I think apology is in order.
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  haha...i just thought atomswifey sounded a bit unhinged, heh. i'm SO not like that...
  
  i guess i don't.
  
  when i see starving children in Ethiopia i think they must pray in their own way, yet God ignores them.
  
  why is that?
  
  or Adam Walsh - i bet he cried and prayed for his mom or dad to save him but God ignored him too, yet he helps people with trivial things like finding their wallet as another poster said, or helps football teams win the super bowl or tennis pros win Wimbledon, because they always thank God at the end.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thankfully no such horrible entity exists.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
@ liambean
maybe you should buy a new pair of glasses ? .You wouldn't like this happening to you
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No I wouldn't, but I wouldn't expect an apology either. In fact, I'm rather put off that cosette didn't even give me time to correct my error before insisting that I fix it THREE TIMES IN A ROW.
  
  So no, no apology.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You had time enough to mend it before. you should have read first what you wrote.. Your reply is rude and selfish.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No I didn't. I was still editing the offending post. I finally get it the way I want it and I've got someone screaming at me to fix it. I don't apologize to screamers. They have their own reward.
  
  You have a problem with that? Too bad.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't have any problem you being rude doesn't bother me. That's your PROBLEM
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't have a problem being rude. Sometimes it's just the thing to do. Of course you claiming I had time enough to fix things, when I didn't, is equally rude.
  
  Your problem.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  so childish !! Are you in prep ?
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You have a reading for comprehension problem? Look back.
  
  No childishness is you insisting that I apologize. You know, kind of like cosette insisting, three times, that I fix things before I even saw her first post about the problem.
  
  This is a forum on the internet; not a telephone conversation.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Really ?... I must have a comprehension problem
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That your problems are not my problems is good enough for me. Now kindly go scold someone else.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just as you said. I'll go when I'm ready
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My my my. How adult of you. I'm not telling you or even asking you to leave. Just to heap your scorn on someone else.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Umm, I thought better of you. I still do in fact. Take a chill pill and come back tomorrow, hope you'll change your mind
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'll leave when I'm ready. I'm not ready.
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mikey9923posted 14 years ago
AH Liam for a man who doesnt belive in Jesus how would you know what he was talking about ; ) .. I am not trying to change your mind or anything like that we all have our own beliefs . I myself am a Christian and have been for 16 years. And i ve learnd that i can only speak of GOD and hey if you follow then great if not well aslong as i spoke about him. Oh by the way my brother inlaw is a christian as well and he is actualy a seal for 6 years now i belive. He has faced many things as a seal.And he told me that the Lord put him there to protect and thats what he does.heres a good read for its called Theres no atheus in the fox hole.. not sure who the author is
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Studying all three religions for over thirty years. Also, I was baptized and raised a Christian.
  
  So with clearly more experience in this area I must ask; why do you think YOU know what you are talking about?
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mikey9923posted 14 years ago
Guys please read the SHACK an awsome read . and it totally pertains to what you are talking about
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  actually, i have that book and i read it and i still feel the same way.
  
  *snicker*
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Paradise7posted 14 years ago
Hey, you guys!! Heads up!! What was the question???? That's one reason I don't visit the forums very much. The whole original intellectual or religious question gets entirely lost in a meaningless and tedious exchange of personalities. People get way too hot, too personal, and the same couple of people keep going back and forth for pages and pages of replies, until the discussion is entirely meaningless and a complete waste of time for anyone else.

So. Is the burden of proof on the Believers? I would think that depends on the context of what is being decided. I don't think in the normal course of things a religious belief is subject to scientific proofs. I don't see why it should be up to science to prove or disprove any part of anyone's religious belief system. I don't see why it should be up to Believers to scientifically prove any part of their belief system, either.

I do know scientists are interested in some sort of quantified proof of an afterlife, or God, or a soul, and have experimented with measuring human beings that are in extremis and then immediately after death.

21 grams are completely unaccounted for. Science can't explain it. It may very well be the weight of the soul, passing from the body, going home to God. Or, it may not.

Scientists would like the answer to the life-after-death question; and not only as a matter of scientific curiousity. I'm sure we all wonder what the exact truth of the matter is, and I'm sure we won't find out until, hopefully, much later...
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mikey9923posted 14 years ago
To cosette.. ok sorry : )it just put alot of things into perspective to me . maybe because i am a parent. I think the book can be more appreciatedpertaing to age and where you are in life and in the Lord ya know
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL We got yet another ASS - u - mer here
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  no, it's ok. i liked the book, actually. it was really interesting the way he portrayed God and Jesus, and riveting when he depicted the events that happened in the woods. it just didn't make me understand why God permits evil, although it may have scratched the surface a little.
  
  p.s. i am a parent
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  mikey9923posted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  mikey9923posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  well dude i cried when i read this book LOL...but i totaly understand that feeling. But the meaning of the book is that GOD doesnt allow evil.Its the world that allows that .And GOD does not stop it because the things he does in our life can never be understood by our carnel minda. He just wants us to trust in him. I think thats what the book represented > the relationship with him and trusting in him. He wants us to know that everythiung he does or lets happen has a meanining. Look at adam and eve . he could of stoped them ; )
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  because he didnt doesn't speak well of him. after all they were his own Creation. Maybe God is a sadist
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe God, if s/he exists, is a sadist, or even sadomasochistic gets my vote.
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  mikey9923posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thats the best part we can think whatever we want,God gave us free will dude!
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My free will is my own. Hell, even if I lived in an oppressive society I would still have the right to think as I wished and believe as I wanted to believe. No one gave it to me though. It was mine all along.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No DUDE, your criminal did not give me anything.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Double sadist then. He knew they were doomed and then he gave them free will ??What for ?
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Bam! Exactly!!!
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Paradise7posted 14 years ago
God, you guys are still going on...and on...and on...I give up this whole mess. It's a complete waste of everyone's time, including yours.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why are YOU wasting your time here?
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LiamBeanposted 14 years ago
cosette: That I attributed a post to you from someone else was a mistake and I apologize. But please know that it was a mistake and not intentional.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Liam for not ruining my faith in humanity
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Having time to actually catch up with all the keerap posted here helps a bit.
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
I can relate
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sometimes posting here is like hitting a hornet's nest with a stick. Too many hornets; not enough stick.
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cosetteposted 14 years ago
thanks liam. i just saw the thread getting longer and longer and the quoted text getting perpetuated and thought well people are going to think i believe that when i don't, and i thought i would use caps to grab your attention, and well, you know the rest, and i apologize for that. i don't mind being called on the carpet for stuff i do say, but stuff i didn't well it makes me all tense and whatnot

well, then that proves that prayers are ignored...the man in the book didn't have a lesson to learn, like Adam and Eve did. they had to learn obedience to God, and when they didn't his punishment was WAY HARSH. if we parented our children the way God parents his, we would be carted off the CPS.
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Unfortunately your name is still in the stuff others quoted from me. Damn!
  
  This is going to sound weird I'm sure, but I do believe prayer is helpful. No, not because someone "upstairs" is going to hear it and answer it. But because surrendering yourself to your situation is the first, best step in getting yourself OUT of a situation. That often sounds like prayer.
  
  ATOMSWIFEY. I was calling YOU on the carpet for assuming so much about me and actually knowing so little.
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  know what? i actually believe that too... prayer is a silent meditation to help us cope with monumental problems. cool!
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  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Great! I've done it many times. It's cathartic.
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  mikey9923posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  AHH Liam thats very cool! i knew u had to be talking to someone ; )
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mikey9923posted 14 years ago
OK . No argument hear> why are you so irate about other peoples beliefs. You have yours and we have ours.If you gave me who or what you belive in i wouldnt try to bash it. I really wouldnt care in all honesty . Its your belief.It doesnt affect me at all what or who you belive
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not irate at all. I'm giving my opinion. I'm sure I'm entitled to one ??
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mikey9923posted 14 years ago
he gave them total control over the garden of eden. The animals the trees the wind everything. They could control everything . But GOD could not control there free will.That is why he sent Jesus to take authority over there sin.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How can God couldn't control the free will that was given by him ?? Isn't god all powerful??? Give me a break !!
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  mikey9923posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He could if he wanted to . But GOD doesnt want people controled. He wants to know that you want to trust in him and love him because you want to . Not because he tells you to.Thats why free will is so important to GOD because the people who belive in him. He knows that they truly belive in him and not because he controled there will
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  mikey9923posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Tantrum whered ya go dude! im gonna head to bed . Thanks for the convo...
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cosetteposted 14 years ago
haha...."double sadist"

i am sure that Man, being the inquisitive sort that he is and of an exploratory nature, would have wanted to see what was beyond that Habitrail called The Garden of Eden...it seems cruel that God would instill in us natural pleasures of the flesh, healthy curiosity and an instinct to examine and analyze ourselves and our world, then punish us severely for it.
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  mikey9923posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  GOD never gave us pleasures of the flesh. Not until the apple was eaten was when we beagan the sin of the flesh.but he did give us curiosity. Hey thats why we are all hear going back and fourth with eacother tonight
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  smokenchicposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know about that, for I believe he told eve that because of her listening to the serpent he would multiple her pain in child birth. So I would image that meant she could bare children before the sin was committed. Unless they just magically appeared...lol
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Valerie Fposted 14 years ago
I believe the correct way of phrasing that is that God "will not" rather than "could not" control our free will. It's not free will if it's externally controlled, and the main requirements of Christianity, namely to love, would not be possible for us without free will.
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  mikey9923posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  YES! : )
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LiamBeanposted 14 years ago
Have a pleasant and peaceful evening all. I'm tired and hungry. Tomorrow?
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Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago
I agree with atomswifey,

Christianity is a violent, hate filled religion that has caused and will continue to cause nothing but conflict and wars until such time as we destroy ourselves. Just like I learned from reading the bible.

And one of the main reasons I am an atheist. Nothing to do with the fact that evolution proves there is not a god. That came later in my life.

Thank you for reminding us all of the true nature of your beliefs, aw.

And for goodness sake - show just a tiny bit of respect for everyone else by editing your rants and quotes properly.
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1. 80
  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It certainly is now, at least, most "Christian" sects are.
  
  The word in the New Testament is diametrically opposed to the attitudes of most "Christians" today.
  
  I'm equally guilty of this.
  
  By the way. In only one instance did Jesus "admit" divine origin. That during his questioning by Pilot. In all other cases he referred to himself as "son of man" which, since neither Hebrew nor Aramaic have prepositions, could just as well have meant "son of a man."
  
  In that one instance Pilot asked (paraphrased) "are you the king of the Jews?" Jesus' reply was tantamount to "if you say so." Hardly an "I am god."
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You say, "In that one instance Pilot asked (paraphrased) "are you the king of the Jews?" Jesus' reply was tantamount to "if you say so." Hardly an "I am god."???!!!
  
  What?!
  
  John 18:33-38 (New International Version)
  
  33Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"
  
  34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
  
  35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"
  
  36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
  
  37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
  Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
  
  38"What is truth?" Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, "I find no basis for a charge against him.
  
  Did Jesus claim divinity? Let's look at the NT scriptural data...
  
  (1) The early creedal formula "Jesus is lord [kyrios]": 1 Cor 12:3; Phil 2:11
  
  (2) The title "Son of God" ("Son of" implies "of the same nature as."): Mt 11:27; Mk 12:6; 13:32; 14:61-62; Lk 10:22; 22:70; Jn 10:30; 14:9
  
  (3) The NT calls him "God": Tit 2:13; 1 Jn 5:20; Rom 9:5; Jn 1:1
  
  (4) Absolutely, universally supreme: Col 1:15-20
  
  (5) Eternally preexistent: Jn 1:1; Phil 2:6; Heb 13:8; Rev 22:13
  
  (6) Omnipresent: Mt 18:20; 28:20
  
  (7) Omnipotent: Mt 28:18; Heb 1:3; Rev 1:8
  
  (8) Immutable: Heb 1:11-12; 13:8
  
  (9) Creates (only God can create): Col 1:16-17; Jn 1:3; 1 Cor 8:6; Heb 1:10
  
  (10) Sinless, perfect: Heb 7:26; Jn 8:46; 2 Cor 5:21
  
  (11) Has authority to forgive sins: Mk 2:5-12; Lk 24:45-47; Acts 10:43; 1 Jn 1:5-9
  
  (12) Rightly worshiped: Mt 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; Jn 20:28; Heb 1:5-9
  
  (13) Speaks the unique, forbidden divine name: Jn 8:58
  
  (14) Called "King of kings and Lord of lords": 1 Tim 6:15; Rev 17:14
  
  (15) One with the Father: Jn 10:30; 12:45, 14:8-10
  
  (16) Performs miracles: Jn 10:37-38; and throughout all 4 gospels.
  
  (17) Sends the Holy Spirit: Jn 14:25-26; 16:7-15
  
  (18) The Father testifies to him: Mt 3:17; 17:5; Jn 8:18; 1 Jn 5:9
  
  (19) Gives eternal life: Jn 3:16; 5:39-40; 20:30-31
  
  (20) Foreknows the future: Mk 8:31; Lk 9:21-22; 12:49-53; 22:35-37; 24:1-7; Jn 3:11-14; 6:63-64; 13:1-11; 14:27-29; 18:1-4; 19:26-30
  
  (21) Is Lord over the Law: Lk 6:1-5
  
  Now what were saying again???
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  80
  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's an interesting translation. Not King James for certain. Not the Amplified Bible either. Seems someone has taken liberties with the bible and given it a whole new spin.
  
  Cute. Inaccurate as can be, but cute.
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  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  King James version:
  
  33Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
  
  34Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
  
  35Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
  
  36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
  
  37Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
  
  Here very very clearly Jesus was tell Pilot He was a King but not of this world!
  He was proclaiming His divinity!
  
  To man, a King is a royal figure, a ruler over a place on earth. Jesus was telling him the then that in that respect, he is a king of the Jews and as well a King in the Kingdom of Heaven.
  
  But again you were saying the amplified?
  OK here it is:
  33So Pilate went back again into the judgment hall and called Jesus and asked Him, Are You the King of the Jews?
  
  34Jesus replied, Are you saying this of yourself [on your own initiative], or have others told you about Me?
  
  35Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Your [own] people and nation and their chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?
  
  36Jesus answered, My kingdom (kingship, royal power) belongs not to this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My followers would have been fighting to keep Me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, My kingdom is not from here (this world); [it has no such origin or source].
  
  37Pilate said to Him, Then You are a King? Jesus answered, You say it! [You speak correctly!] For I am a King. [Certainly I am a King!] This is why I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the Truth. Everyone who is of the Truth [who is a friend of the Truth, who belongs to the Truth] hears and listens to My voice.
  
  38Pilate said to Him, What is Truth? On saying this he went out to the Jews again and told them, I find no fault in Him.
  
  39But it is your custom that I release one [prisoner] for you at the Passover. So shall I release for you the King of the Jews?
  
  40Then they all shouted back again, Not Him [not this Man], but Barabbas! Now Barabbas was a robber.
  
  38Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.
  
  Both translate into the same thing! LOL
  He in no way denied being GOD!
  In fact he solidified it through His own words.
  And too, he even challenged Pilot to hear the truth about it!
  "Everyone who is of the Truth [who is a friend of the Truth, who belongs to the Truth] hears and listens to My voice".
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2. 56
  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
  Yes Mark, Christianity is all about hate and violence etc. You can stay under that delusion if you want to.
  
  But it is not Christianity that has caused wars, violence etc. Mark, it is lack of belief in Christ, in God who is love personified that has caused, is causing and will continue to cause that.
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  80
  LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So the Crusades weren't Christian in origin? How interesting. Everyone in Jerusalem was slaughtered by a bunch of non-believers. Wow.
  
  I'm impressed. I get a new edumakashun every day here.
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LiamBeanposted 14 years ago
To the "Christians" here.

All of your replies, responses, objections prove to me the one thing I've known all along. You don't read (or know how to read) the very book you claim inspires your faith.
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58
Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago
atomswifey - this is the last response you will get from me, as I may as well be speaking to a brick, but please have some consideration for everyone else by cutting down the size of your posts.

And I don't know where that mickey mouse bible for dummies came from but - do yourself a favor and get an education.

ciao
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
I can't believe what believers believe!!!. It's like a HUGE fairy tale or tail?
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1. 0
  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  hmm...i was always taught that they only realized they were naked when they ate the fruit.
  
  i always thought it was really mean of God to make Eve's childbirth hurt just because she ate the fruit. i thought wow, even my own mom, who hits me, wouldn't do something that mean (vindictive).
  
  i was really interested in mythology when i was little. my mom had a set of encyclopedias that were all about the Greek and Roman mythologies...i was fascinated by them. in Catholic school, we were taught that the Bible was true but deep down, it seemed like mythology too.
  
  just not as fun to read.
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video lostposted 14 years ago
I just proved that to you right now. It's only that you read it
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1. 0
  wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I will make sure to contact all scientists since you deserve a Nobel Prize. And to think, after all these years, with all the scientists at work, it was done on HubPages by videolost. Congratulations... I'll be expecting to see your name in lights. Wow, you'll be RICH!!!!
  reply report
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  video lostposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No thanks, keep your money and your noble prize, i dont need them.
  reply report
59
Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago
URGENT message to all believers at the link below.

Please read BEFORE you reply in here again.

http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/21507
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1. 0
  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  well, all i have to say is this: i have never been able to get a straight answer from anyone about pointed, specific questions i have had about scripture, even in school where you go to be taught the bible. what you get is a lot of indoctrination and admonishments to stay away from sinful activities, and questions are shot down. why is that?
  
  in these threads, some people are seeking answers, like myself, and i asked a couple of questions and pointed out a few problems with the bible, and they were not addressed at all, which tells me that you guys don't know, or you realize that there is no decent answer, so you ignore questions and then post a thread calling for all good Christians to not only ignore "non-believers" but you single them out by name. just because someone disagrees with the bible or questions the bible doesn't mean they don't believe in God. maybe they do, just not the one you do.
  
  i am not in these threads to fight with anyone. i am here to discuss these topics because i am interested in them and i am surprised that grown men and women have to be herded like sheep and told what to say and who to talk to, and as faithful messengers of God, instead of attempting to talk to someone seeking answers, they act all smug about their faith, as if they are in God's inner sanctum and the rest of us are a bunch of idiots. i don't think Jesus was like that at all.
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  57
  video lostposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed Cossette,
  
  Jesus (peace be upon him) was not like that. He never claimed DIVINITY, TRINITY, CRUCIXION and things like that. He was just one of the mightiest messengers of Allah.
  
  Regarding the answers to your questions, they are obviously there in ISLAM, QUR'AN and THE TRADITIONS OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD (peace be upon him).
  reply report
  0
  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  maybe so. i have been attracted to eastern religions...
  reply report
  57
  video lostposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What are your major questions ??? can i have a look
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  59
  Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  They were named as such for mockery.
  
  Perfectly willing to talk to the sincere though.
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  56
  atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  cosette I cannot speak for shaul, only myself.
  It is not that I am choosing to ignore anyone who is seeking.
  Not anyone!
  I am under the impression however due to their remarks that the certain ones I myself have come into contact with on here are not really seeking.
  Their only intentions are to mock and blaspheme.
  This is evident in how they present themselves when in discussion about God.
  They do not merely, ask questions or debate their own beliefs. They mock, they blaspheme, etc.
  They call God if He exists, (their words) a psychopath and other extremely negative conotations. They are not seeking Him because their pride stops them from doing that. They think they know He does not exist without really knowing that. But they have convinced themselves this is true.
  
  No manner of speaking, writing etc. is going to change that right now. And especially not so if we engage them in further debate and arguement. That only supplies them more fuel for their fire. That is all it accomplishes; Further debate, further argument.
  
  I am making the choice to not argue is all I am saying. Let them think what they want, believe what they want. God will show them, He will guide them, it is not up to me or anyone else for that matter. We are only to drop seed, not tend their garden.
  
  Now, having said that, if one or more by chance happens to ask me a question, I will do my best to answer. But I will not argue or debate with them any longer. They either accept my answer or they don't.
  Now as far as you are concerned,
  I am not aware of any questions you have asked me, where I did not answer. But if there are questions you have asked of me, and I did not, please let me know.
  reply report
81
earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Quick folks! Last chance offer!!!
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81
earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Providing you can get past this sock puppets hate list.
So far it includes just about everyone!
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0
Crazdwriterposted 14 years ago
OMG he posted that on here too? Wow he doesn't want friends does he?
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81
earnestshubposted 14 years ago
No you are not. You are only willing to talk to zealots like yourself.
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