Wordscribe 41 said:
The following post is in response to a statement made by another hubber and the many posts I've read using logical fallacies:
"the burden of proof" is NOT on the believers. There is no burden to prove He exists because it is by FAITH that we believe. It is by faith we called on to believe. The "proof" you seek in order for YOU to believe, you already have known. It is as God stated in Romans, since the beginning you have known God is. it is really the indoctrination of sin which deludes you to Him as of now. It is your lack of faith which demonstrates exactly what God said it would..”
This first paragraph that you wrote, says it all; So Well said, and soo true.
Rubbish. She said that and then went on to explain why it is a ridiculous argument.
The burden of proof IS on you if you do not want to be laughed at.
Your choice sunshine. Every time you tell me there is an invisible god - I will laugh in your face.
Unless you prove it.
Thanks for clarifying, Mark. Yes, the paragraph in question was written by atomswifey: She said: "the burden of proof" is NOT on the believers. There is no burden to prove He exists because it is by FAITH that we believe. It is by faith we called on to believe. The "proof" you seek in order for YOU to believe, you already have known. It is as God stated in Romans, since the beginning you have known God is. it is really the indoctrination of sin which deludes you to Him as of now. It is your lack of faith which demonstrates exactly what God said it would..”
I purposefully omitted her name. However, with the current shenanigans on another post and the lack of restraint in calling out particular hubbers, I am no longer worried about revealing her identity.
dutchman, I'm not irritated by your mistake. I just completely disagree with atomswifey's statement and continual condescending stabs. So, I'm free to say (in the most mature manner): "Mommmm, Dadddd!!!! ATOMSWIFEY DID IT!"
I know who said it. I have given up speaking to that one after the whole oblate spheroid discussion - I can only conclude a mental age of about 2.5.
As to the original thought behind this thread. Why can they not see the irrationality of their argument?
If they want people to stop laughing at them - they need to put up or shut up.
Although - having said that - I have no problem with some one telling me they believe in god. I don't care what they believe.
I do have a problem with this same person then telling me that they know what this god wants me to do. I have never heard a more ridiculous notion.
Honestly, Mark I'm baffled myself. The oblate spheroid discussion was highly indicative of what we're dealing with here. Absolute inability and unwillingness to listen to any reason, logic and facts whatsoever.
Agreed, I'm fine with people telling me about their belief in God. But, it's their perceived ability to somehow "read into me" as a person, give me that sad "I'll pray for you" look, tell me I'm just too blinded by "sin" to be "open" to receiving God and his will for me (lmao), that really gets my goat. Oh, yeah, I forgot about the part where I'm going to Hell for an eternity.
I'm over it. Logic won't prevail here, it's obvious.
I don't even know why they feel the need to tell anyone about it. If I believed something that daft, I would be keeping it to myself.
I am slowly coming around to the idea that they are suspecting they are wrong and persuading a few people to jump on the bandwagon might make them feel better.
You know - like people who have just had a baby. They look like shit, haven't slept in weeks, are at each others throats - yet are trying to persuade you that you need to have one.
Perfect analogy. After I had my twins, hadn't slept in months, was covered in puke and crap, I said: "DON'T DO IT!!!" to all my childless friends... One look at me and they were sexless for a looonnnggg time, my friend.
I've often thought the same about keeping it to myself... I also find they are the ones with the hubs about Jesus, the bumper stickers, the tee shirts, the ones putting fliers all over my car, on my house.... UGH!!!! I don't advertise my atheism that way. Why should I? Remind me when I get a chance to share with you a lovely little treat I got in the mail about some inane mathematical equation relating to "666". Another example.
My wife's mother died a couple of years ago. She was a Buddhist and after the funeral, a kind christian soul took the trouble of writing her husband (my wife's dad) a letter explaining how terrible it was that his dead wife was now going to burn in hell for all eternity for not believing.
Quite apart from the fact that he did not even know these people (he just saw the funeral notice) this guy also put his actual name and address on the letter.
Unfortunately for him - my wife's father is a security guard at a local mental hospital and takes a certain pleasure in the physical activity he gets involved in - so he paid him a visit.
These people do not understand just exactly how offensive their beliefs are - and never will. I can understand why the Romans used to feed them to the lions.
THAT, is so horrifying. Stooping to all new levels... I'm going to have to shake that one off for a minute... WT??? Bet you would have liked being a fly on that wall with your father-in-law that day. I can live vicariously through my own imagination...
hypocrisy seems to plague a lot in your place.
They have been shown the proof of the argument by both you and Mark, but refuse to read or understand it. None so blind and all that. Interesting that the non believers overall seem to know the bible and quoran as well or better than the zealots do, yet the zealots only look at a religionists view of science, and these "scientists" are getting thin on the ground.
I'm gonna tell the twins you said that! (When they turn 21)
I'm also guessing you would not give them away now, although I would take $5 each for my two at the moment!
OK two bucks and my watch and glasses back!
SHHHH... not a word until they're of age. Or until they've been through it themselves. No doubt, my kids are the light of my life, Earnest. But, the first year was BRUTAL... I still have nightmares about those days. One night we were convinced we had triplets. I'd fed both twins and Carl said: "I'll go get the third one." He left the room, I waited for the third baby to come in. What's taking him so long, I thought?... He came in and said: "We only have two." True story.
though neither one of you may believe me on this, you might though, who knows, but the truth is I think that is really terrible as well.
I think it was a horrible thing to say to anyone. And not at all the christian perspective at all!
God is the judge of all.
I think you both will find in reading what I have written in response to damnation that it is not for me tell you whether or not you WILL be damned.
Belief is a choice, and God is the judge.
I cannot tell you, Mark, you are going to hell. What I can do is say, in truth, Mark repent or you will suffer the consequences.
In other words, lets say, you Mark were to die today, can I say then, you are in hell? No. I cannot because I would not know if in that hour you did not recieve Him.
when Jesus was on the cross, there a murderer next to him. He said to Jesus, "remember me when you enter your kingdom". Jesus response was "today, you will be with me in paradise".
Even a lifetime of sin and disbelief, of crimes and evil deeds were not enough to break Gods love and forgiveness. It was the murderers faith which led to His reward. And that was all it took.
It was not right in any way shape or form for the one sending your father inlaw that letter! It was evil in fact!
For one to so horribly and down right evil to say something like that to your father inlaw, it is they who should fear judgement for it!
That is how I see it anyway.
Sorry you had that experience, honestly.
Yes - but you have proven your opinions to be of zero value.
You also do not live up to your word. In fact - I don't think you are capable of that. Turn the other cheek does not mean attack some one. Jebus would be turning in his... Oh yeah.
I really put no value on your opinions whatsoever - but I do thank you from the bottom of my heart for proving that the christian religion is hate filled garbage.
Tell me about "circle" proving that the earth is not an oblate spheroid again - that was the funniest one. 'specially when you started to explain that it was global warming that changed it from what it was last week when the earth was created.
Suffer consequences? How would you know anything about that? No offense - but having the power to change your size and actually choosing to do so are 2 entirely different things. You need to change or suffer the consequences yourself sweetheart.
Come back when you have made some changes - I might be more impressed.
see, this never made sense to me. why should a low-life murderer/criminal who spent their entire life sinning suddenly be granted the keys to heaven simply because they give themselves to God during their final hour and a person like Mother Teresa, who devoted her entire life to the service of others and is now beatifed and one step short of canonization share the same equal footing?
why even have the 10 commandments at all? this says you can be bad all of your life; be a sinner and break all the commandments but as long as you receive Christ in your dying breath, all is forgiven.
I love how you ignore all of my questions, atomswifey. that tells me you don't have any good answers because you are a blind faithian who parrots what your pastor tells you, instead of examining and analyzing and thinking for yourself.
Ok, I will answer and explain as best as I can.
God is all loving and merciful to the greatest extent that beyond even our own understanding He loves and is merciful to anyone, even a murderer who asks for forgiveness is given that forgiveness. Whether they are a saint like mother Theresa or not, makes no difference to God because it is not by works that we are saved. It is by grace, His love that we are.
God hates sin, But loves the sinner.
Forgiveness, his Grace is granted to everyone equally. Jesus said
There is but one way to the Father and that is through me.
The murderer had the faith, He believed in Jesus as His saviour. He acknowledged his place in saying, "when You enter your kingdom, remember me."
He knew He was not the one to save Himself. He knew he was guilty, and that only Christ could save Him.
Now as far as what other rewards the murderer received from God, I doubt it was any.
And far as Mother Theresa is concerned, she was adorned I am sure with many crowns.
The Bible tells of those kinds of rewards and who they are given to.
But the gift of Salvation is given to us all! If it wasn't, Not even Mother Theresa would have gotten in.
And why even have the ten commandments? what is the first Commandment?
I am the Lord your God.
Acknowledgement of Him as being your God.
The murderer on the cross did that and that is all that is required to receive salvation.
The Bible says, Once the son has set you free, you are indeed. As far as the east is east and west is west.
Once a sinner comes to believe and accept that forigveness, they are then clean and pure in the eyes of God. That kind of awesome love, we as humans cannot understand. We even so much as "hate" someone who cuts us off the freeway! LOL yet alone love them.
Do you know when you are going to die? Does anyone? Maybe sometimes that is true but not always. It was easy for the murderer to accept because he knew he was about to die right? Wrong. If it was that easy for him to believe than why was it the man on the other side, not to believe? Both knew they were dying. Both knew Jesus was said to be the messiah, the difference? One chose to believe Jesus was the messiah, and the other did not.
Again, it is not by works we are saved, it is by faith.
Hope that answers your questions
so basically someone could be standing there mowing people down with an Uzi, then turn around and say "By the way, I believe in you, God" and he acquires salvation.
well thank you for your reply.
Mother Teresa would not have wanted forgiveness and salvation withheld from any repentant sinner. She did not do background checks on the pariahs she served, after all.
You also misunderstand the meaning of repentance if you think you can just go on misbehaving all your life, then simply ask to be let into Heaven. Genuine repentance requires a complete change of heart, a recognition that you've done wrong and, given the chance, you'd change. It's not just playing some "get out of jail free" card.
that's exactly my point. that murderer next to Jesus decided right then to repent. anyone would with iron pegs hammered into the palms of their hands.
and i do NOT misunderstand the meaning of repentance. my point is the man next to Christ did in fact play his get out of jail free card. true repentance and remorse takes a lifetime, not a few minutes right before you die.
He did not play a "get out of jail free card." Do you think Jesus, being God Incarnate according to most Christian denominations, would not have recognized insincere repentance?
And who are you to judge the sincerity of another person's change of heart when they are physically incapable of showing it by any other means? I find it interesting how Christians are accused of looking down upon others on one hand, then told it makes no sense that we don't think we're any better than any other sinner. Read Matthew 20: 1-16, the parable of the workers in the vineyard.
It seems you also think salvation is something you earn by doing good works. Christianity does not teach that, but only teaches that faith is proven by works. If you can't physically do anything to prove the sincerity of your repentance due to say, being crucified, God still knows your mind, your intentions. Salvation is not something you earn any more than a drowning victim earns being rescued. Why should it matter to you that someone accepts rescue later than others- as long as they're saved?
Honest question, have wondered about this for a while. Based upon an actual person, who I will call Sharon P. Sharon was 62 years old, and was an nonbeliever in God her entire life. Since she was in her 50's, she'd had a drinking problem, something she attempted to control, but found self promises of abstinence to continually fail. When she was 60, her loving husband passed away and she found herself in severe despair, depressed and drinking even more.
She finally became so sick and tired of being sick and tired that she reached out for help from Alcoholics Anonymous. She began attending meetings and was quickly struck by the fact that's it's a spiritual program, with 4 out of the 12 steps mentioning “God”, one mentioning “power greater than ourselves”, and one mentioning “spiritual awakening”. She was scared, she didn't believe in God, but felt comfort in hearing the stories from others in the program who were once atheist, too but had “spiritual experiences” that had helped them come to believe. She was told and began to believe that the only way she could be free from her alcoholism was by turning her will and life over to the care of God.
She tried everything to become a believer, made a choice she'd set upon the journey to accept Him into her life. She asked for forgiveness. She rigorously worked the 12 steps. Said the Third Step prayer daily: “God, I offer myself to Thee- to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!” She started going to a Christian Church, read the Bible, went to a study group, prayed, meditated, got help from clergy... Sharon did everything humanly possible to accept Jesus as her Saviour. She felt her life truly depended upon it.
Much to her consternation, she felt nothing, nada, zip. She STILL didn't believe in God. She did, however, manage to put together some sobriety, and thought that maybe this was indeed a form of Divine intervention. Others pointed out the same thing to her, while she entertained the idea, she just wasn't able to wholeheartedly accept it was God's work as much as she wanted to. She even told people without God, she'd still be drinking. But, despite all of her efforts, she just truly didn't FEEL OR BELIEVE it. She stayed sober a while, continued her spiritual journey, and one day relapsed. Kept going to AA, and church though. Kept doing what she had been doing all along. Kept relapsing, kept trying to find God, kept praying, asking for help, asking for forgiveness, etc... Was back and forth between sobriety and drinking. Pleaded with God to help her. Got on her knees to humble herself, thoroughly willing and completely open to having Him come into her life. She could not come to believe though she desperately wanted to.
Unexpectedly, she was in a tragic and fatal car accident. I don't know what was going through her mind as she came to realize this was her end. But, I know she didn't believe in God. Did Sharon go to Hell? If God is omniscient, He knows she wasn't truly a believer, but she did her darndest, didn't she?
Do you know if she didn't believe in God at that last moment? You probably couldn't have. I have even less reason to know where her soul is and I would actually consider it sinfully judgmental to guess that any soul is in Hell.
And by the way, you don't have to "feel it" to be a believer. The statement that "she didn't feel it" is just too vague. Was she faking her way through church and paying mere lip service to the Higher Power? Or was it genuine, but she, like any believer, had doubts or even what Catholics call a "dark night of the soul-" when believers find their prayer life difficult, unrewarding, and when they either give up all faith in God or they move on to a better and deeper faith and understanding of the virtue God calls us to- faith demonstrated by works without taking the possibility of reward for granted?
I don't know, and I will not venture a guess.
I don't know at the very last moment, of course. But, I did talk to her the day before and her battle continued with her lack of belief. "Didn't feel it" means she just really couldn't believe in God. She never stopped trying, but never believed. Kept waiting for acceptance of Him. Does that make sense? She desperately WANTED to believe, but she really couldn't believe, had too much doubt. I know it's a tough question, thanks for trying.
actually i have no doubt that that guy was sincere.
"who am i to judge"? well, i am not being judgmental...i just can't understand why a person can live a whole lifetime being a jerk and then at the last second, if he accepts Christ as his savior, he gains entrance into the kingdom of Heaven. so, does that mean someone like Adolph Hitler won't go to Hell as long as he had a sincere, repentant moment at the end?
that doesn't seem very fair.
they should toss out those commandments then and just insert a new verse "Thou can sin to thouest heart's content including adultery, murder, fornication, stealing from thine neighbor, and committing thouest most heinous acts. but accept Jesus as thy savior, even in thine's dying hour and thouest will be saved."
when i was a girl, we had to be circumspect in everything we did or we would be called "sinner" by our parents and those nuns, and spanked or admonished to go pray and show our repentance. pleasures like dancing with boys, music, wearing makeup or even barettes in our hair was considered sinful, as well as the usual sins like lying, being selfish, etc.
so why did i have to suffer all of that when i could have just lived a hedonistic life, as long as i had a sincere change of heart at the end?
you and atomswifey seem to take my questions as hostile, when all i want (all i have ever wanted) is answers to questions i am never going to get.
Eh, actually you are being judgmental. If you were on a sinking ship and you whined that some people were being rescued that didn't deserve it, that is judgmental. You should be happier that people are being saved.
And living a hedonistic life deliberately thinking you can just repent at the end is ridiculous, because you are taking God for granted and assuming you'll have plenty of time to make a "sincere" repentance. If you recognize what you're doing is wrong, and you just assume you can be Reconciled later, you're only compounding the wrong by deliberately persisting in it. The Bible warns repeatedly against deliberately putting off repentance.
It's also judgmental to assume you're never going to get answers when I have answered them and you've just repeated the questions.
Let me repeat. If you only repent because you're dying and scared of Hell but you never really wanted to give up your sinful ways, it's not repentance, and it's not sincere. If you recognize the evil of your ways, wish for Reconciliation with God not out of fear for your own soul but out of an honest desire to do right, even if the only chance you take is on your deathbed, better late than never.
And how am I supposed to interpret complaining that God is unfair for rescuing people who you don't think deserve it as anything other than hostile? If you weren't hostile, you wouldn't be calling God unfair.
Now answer my question. Is a firefighter unfair for trying to rescue everyone from a burning building, regardless of what they'd done?
Here are some thoughts that may assist you with an understanding of how things came about. The bible says that God created the Heavens and the earth so that everything that science finds upon this earth is nothing but evidence of His creative power. Yes, even gravity of which in the person of Jesus He defied when Jesus was taken up into the clouds after His resurrection. Jesus also walked on water.
Here is a thought question. There is more water on earth then there is land, so why does the water not overtake the land? God says in the bible that He gave the water command that it should not overtake the land.
In science it is said that atoms make up matter and that atoms cannot not be displaced or destroyed. I submit to you that God knows the composition of matter and understands how to re-structer atoms because Jesus showed up in the room with His diciples after His resurrection without using the door to get in. All the proof that you need of the existence of God is displayed in Jesus. He demostrated who God is with every healing that was completed by Jesus. Have you ever known a mans hand to be whither from birth and restored by the power of a word to be restored. Life and death is in the power of the tongue. God said that He spoke this world into existence and I agree with this position because it makes sense. Better sense than the therory of evolution. Once again when I bite into an apple, organge, or peach they all have the seed withing themselves to repoduce even as the bible declares it. It also says that everything produces after its own kind and would you know that it still occurs today. Monkeys have Monkeys and not a man child. I submit to you that before there was written record man did not have to write anything down becuase they came fresh from the hand of the creator with great minds and great memories as is demonstrated by there ability to recall all of the names associtated with their generations. How is it that people can accept the testimony of a science book but not accept the testimony of the bible? There is no other book that expands 1000 of years, have several writers and yet is an harmony with itself. Simply Amazing.
Mr. Tantrum I am new to this Hub business and so i need to explore more about how it works. If you have some suggestions i am open to learn how it works thanks
If you write a couple of hubs and come back to post in the forum ,people will give you more credibility. Welcome and enjoy
Mr. Tantrum thanks However if you can present those steps i would appreciate it very much.
Pretty much any question you might have can be answered in the "help" tab above. Good luck.
Ask Mr. Knowles (I rarely use Mr. with someone I know). He's something else.
Now I better duck and run cause I put Mark on the spot. Hehehehe.
As you well know, wordscribe and many others have provided plenty of evidence in the form of scientific proof which you apparently avoid like the plague!
I agree. There is NO Burden of Proof on the Believer in Yeshua HaMachiach or the Yahweh, the Lord God Almighty. It is not our place to force anything on any other individual. I'm surprised at all the energy that has gone into responding to this article. It makes me laugh! Laughing is Good!!! People waste so much energy on stupid stuff, while life passes by!!
We just have to live our lives. God, Himself, takes care of the rest. We just have to "tell our Story", the Way He gives it to us. There is no debate.
Love Always and God Bless!
Hello wanta answer cosetts question or at least express my opinion. Yea I think that a murder can be given salvation the same as Mother Teresa. Salvation is said to be for the asking. However I think that Mother Teresa is sittin at the banquet table having many people serving her. On the other hand the murderer that truly repented is possibly cleany porta toilets out back someplace. Salvation is for the asking, Rewards are earned. My thoughts
in that case i am going to start sinning and not waste any more time being good.
Gotta love the Simpsons. American straight talk at it's best!
There is plenty of scientific links from unbiased science sources that make the strongest of cases for a planet that is at a minimum 13 billion years old, not 6,000
There is strong evidence of evolution across the sciences, and strong evidence in psychology to support a predisposition to religiosity.
From that point on, if one does not see, then one has chosen to deny truth, and feel safer quoting from a self ousting lot of dribble about hate and fear.
More like 4.5 billion for earth and 13 billion for the universe. However if you believe god created everything in six "days"then there's only one logical question to ask. "What is a day to one who never dies?"
you are lying, sorry about your connection with Crusaders
Of course, literalist, young-earth creationists make up only a very small minority of believers.
The psychological evidence to support a predisposition to religiosity does not disprove the existence of God, however, as evolution doesn't either. You might interpret it to do so. The believer would be inclined to interpret evolution and that we have evolved to believe in God as further proof that God exists.
Yes they might, but that would involve avoiding strong proof that oppose such a conclusion.
Psychology is also supporting the existence and influence of God as is modern science, take for instance the following.
Antony Flew (Professor of Philosophy, former atheist, author, and debater) "It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of Deoxyribonucleic acid: the chemical inside the nucleus of a cell that carries the genetic instructions for making living organisms.DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design." (a)
(a) Atheist Becomes Theist: Exclusive Interview with Former Atheist Antony Flew at Biola University.
The Freudian myth, a corner-stone of the atheist dogma since early twentieth century, has been invalidated by empirical data. Patrick Glynn, of the George Washington University, explains this fact in his book titled God: The Evidence, The Reconciliation of Faith and Reason in a Post secular World : The last quarter of the twentieth century has not been kind to the psychoanalytic vision. Most significant has been the exposure of Freud's views of religion (not to mention a host of other matters) as entirely fallacious. Ironically enough, scientific research in psychology over the past twenty-five years has demonstrated that, far from being a neurosis or source of neuroses as Freud and his disciples claimed, religious belief is one of the most consistent correlates of overall mental health and happiness. Study after study has shown a powerful relationship between religious belief and practice, on the one hand, and healthy behaviors with regard to such problems as suicide, alcohol and drug abuse, divorce, depression, even, perhaps surprisingly, levels of sexual satisfaction in marriage, on the other hand. (b)
(b) Harun Yahya
I saw the Simpsons last night, and we get a double episode tonight including one new one Whoo WHoo!!
Lucky you. The Simpson's are right up my alley at this particular moment. Had quite a day... Get myself WAY too involved with my kids' school. Suddenly I am WRITING a play to be performed by some kids at the assembly on Friday. A fundraiser thing. Yikes.
Every time you get done over for your crazy beliefs you come back with some inane crap like " Your dog eats poo," or some other ninth rate crud like this. Speaks volumes!
Sorry about your connection with psychosis!
I love the way the sock puppet says "have some guts" when he is losing, yet won't even show himself!
I already replied to your "so called proof", usman. Now, enough with the bullying. My belief system can beat up your belief system.
He gets nasty please allow me to take over from you
Hi Mohit. I know.... Good to see you here. Your presence is always welcome here.
Debate with me.Have you seen god?
You may see magic all around you and sense a divine presence but have you seen the Light?
Are you enlightened?
Def of "enlightened"
Mohit is holding the "light post" and those are his followers.
And his prophet has the sign in his hand.
If my work is ranked over Jesus words the Bible and Muhammad the Quran then how can I have a prophet to follow?
Who should I follow?
Bulldust and unsupported propaganda from start to finish. Prove any of it!
This is his favorite site: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/quotes.html
So, let's hear the rest of the argument about Flew. All you gave us was a quote.
not just the quote, the meaning of the quote as well which is pro God
So, Flew's pro God. Good for him. And I should care.... why?
because he is a famous non muslim psychologist who said the above after an extensive research and analysis. He is comming towards the truth - ISLAM.
Towards the truth, he is still on the path and converts as he doesn't know or understand god.
You are a Muslim but have no idea about god apart from what you have read or heard.
LOL, he's a philosopher, not a scientist (or psychologist). He has some argument about DNA (which you still haven't shared), but isn't qualified to make DNA creationist arguments. And, for every atheist scientist who's become a theist, I can cite 100 who went from theist to atheist. But, it matters not. This provides no proof of anything.
Truth always bites you kind of evolved things
OK. I believe you would have read all of it. I guess we disagree, but who knows what will come up for examination? More data is on the way every day now.
And I look forward to seeing it. Unfortunately, I think when most or even all prove "scientifically" that there is or isn't a God, they jump to a religious or philosophical but otherwise extra-scientific conclusion based much less on the data than on their subjective interpretations of it.
No baby-throwing here. I'm just being an equal-opportunity skeptic again.
sometimes i feel some people want a god on anatomy table to believe he exists ! after that they will state that they found somekind of alien who can create !
some never stop giving order "if you are there then show me yourself ! " if they saw him they will say it`s some kind of phenomena ! " or " there must be a scientific explanation! "
in quran allah say "And even if We opened unto them a Gate of heaven and they kept mounting through it, (14)They would say: Our sight is wrong - nay, but we are folk bewitched."
"Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they are not the ones to believe, unless it is in Allah's plan. But most of them ignore (the truth)."
Say: "Have ye any (certain) knowledge? If so, produce it before us. Ye follow nothing but conjecture: ye do nothing but lie."
Wordscribe, You're right there is no way I could prove God to you without some kind of physical or scientific evidence, even then the skeptics only following their nature would still question the validity of that evidence and this would just go on and on and on. Funny thing is I realize its not my job to prove anything there is no burden for me and this is no court case. Your beliefs are your own and for you to decide all anyone can do is present you with an opinion for or against and then the burden lies on you to decide one way or the other, and as faith by its very nature is a matter of heart and belief not logic or mind, I see where this presents a problem to the logical minded person. There are many Laws of Physics that rely totally on theoretical lines of thinking yet can never be proven or dis-proven by the science we currently know.Does this mean its wrong, not at all it just means we have yet to explore it fully. There are many evidences to the existence of God. Based on eyewitness belief alone it is a veritable mountain of data. In court where the burden of proof rests on the prosecution, one witness can convict a man to death, and here you are surrounded by billions speaking to the existence of God.
I know that this doesn't really prove anything in the technical sense, In the technical sense can you prove you and I are even here right now or just a figment of someone's dream? No you can't beyond a doubt. Someone will still doubt the outcome of anything you say you can prove.In the end we are just talking in circles as you have said before yourself so why then ask for proof of something you know can not be proven? Yes you know it can't that's why you asked, if it could be proven it would rock you to your core and force you to examine all of your life and your choices it would also be scary. Just as thinking all of my life is a pointless exercise in wishful thinking. I do not believe in a traditional heaven though or afterlife. I believe that after my death I will return to the energy and mass from whence I came. Scientifically this flesh before my eyes is nothing more then energy in motion and form moving through larger fields of energy and form, this is a notion of Quantum mechanics and physics. In reality we are all made from the stuff of stars and will return to that source again. God, Universe, Infinite intelligence its all the same, one source. Any way This turned into a rant, I support your beliefs and drive to ask why even if I can not agree with your conclusions.
'k, i believe this also (except i believe that after returning to the starstuff, we come back on Earth for another go-round).
is this from a particular religion or just another random person sharing a similar belief? if random, where does it come from?
wow. maybe i am a Buddhist or whatever religion teaches this and don't know it.
It is a view given in the Huna belief and also based on The Perception of the Law of Attraction and the Law Of Vibration. It is also expressed more or less in the Bible again and again. "From dust you came and to dust you will return." Many eastern philosophies also share a similar concept. This is also a theory of physics. Basically stating that at its most base level everything is energy, displayed in the equation E=MC squared. Einstein was a proponent of Quantum Physics and authored many basic tenants of that discipline. On a side note, this random sharing is an illustration of The Law of Attraction in effect, as thoughts emit frequency that attract similar frequencies and thus similar thoughts, Happy people attract others who share their view, as is also illustrated in the fact that miserable people who gripe, moan, and complain all day only bring more things to complain about into their lives.
wow. i always took dust to mean dirt. it's funny though, my instinct always told me something else - stardust or starstuff. in fact, when my son was a newborn, i was looking into his eyes and i welcomed him and told him he was from the stars and i swear he understood me because i could see it in his eyes and it made me weep. well anyway thank you. off to Google that.
Einstein's equation reveal that energy can be converted into mass and mass can be converted into energy. The bible's verse "from dust you can and to dust you will return" is from Allah who is telling you that he created man from dust and after death he will be turned as dust. It does not say man was created automatically by dust or that the material - dust or star is the ultimate power behind creation. By the way stars also die, do you know that ??? remember ... BLACK HOLES
Qur'an, Ch 3 - THE FAMILY OF IMRAN, V 59-60
V 59. The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.
V 60. The Truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.
In contrast, the belief of life and death which you have is the pagan one, the one in which material is praised (materialism), the one in which human is praised (humanism), the one in which nature or mother nature is praised, all these are not new and belong to all the esoteric organizations including Freemasonry, Ancient Egyptians and Hindus in the east.
Qur'an, Ch 27 – THE ANTS, V 66-69
66. Still less can their knowledge comprehend the Hereafter: Nay, they are in doubt and uncertainty thereanent; nay, they are blind thereunto!
67. The Unbelievers say: "What! when we become dust,- we and our fathers,- shall we really be raised (from the dead)?
68. "It is true we were promised this,- we and our fathers before (us): these are nothing but tales of the ancients."
69. Say: "Go ye through the earth and see what has been the end of those guilty (of sin)."
Islam is very new compared to Hinduism which engulfed Islam into its philosophy. The truth is what Hinduism is about and there are many highly revered Muslim saints in India.
Hindu comes from Indus-Industan- Hindustan, the people residing by the river Indus.
The first church ever build is in India .
The Parsees fled Persia when they were being crucified by the Muslims to India as Indians or the Hindus were very broad minded people, and understood god to be in all things.
You can worship god as you deem fit.
Belief is not always blind, the belief with logic reveals the real picture. Science, Reason, Logic, Common Sense and Judgment is not deserted in Islam.
Qur'an, Ch 21-THE PROPHETS, V 67 "Fie upon you, and upon the things that ye worship besides Allah. Have ye no sense?"..
So as per logic and common sense if an atheist does not want physical proof and agrees blindly or logically for GRAVITY, SENSE, SMELL, THINKING, SOUL/SPIRIT (POWER BEHIND NEURONS) then they must not ask the same in case of ALLAH.
Similarly, if they can not think of a computer system arising by chance or evolution from a heap of silicon, copper and gold then why they propose these false theories for the creation of the universe, humans and animals ??? The process of creation by a scientist in case of computer or by Allah in case of universe (from nothing) and human (from material) is undeniable. Therefore, the scientific and logical persons like Stephen Hawking and Einstein were agreed upon the existence and influence of God whether in the form of theism or pantheism.
Further if you analyse theism (believed and practiced by Jews and Muslims exluding deviated ones or name sake) and pantheism (believed by Freemasons, Zionists, Hindus, Idol Worshipers, Satanists etc), the true one from both of these type of beliefs of God is THEISM
Incredibly well stated, Scott. Bar none the best address of this entire issue set forth "from the other side" (). Thank you for your response. We see things differently, but what you propose here makes a lot of sense.
Love in the quoran.
Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”
Lovely! I guess that got changed to assist the taliban in their campaign of cutting off body parts!
these verses talking about being hard DURING FIGHTS so don`t mention it "UNCOMPLETE" and "IN THE WRONG PLACE" to give wrong ideas this hurt the credibility in your writings & if we knew that the used weapons there were swords (sorry no guns at that time !) there is nothing weird about the parts mentioned cause that`s what swords do !
"Science, Reason, Logic, Common Sense and Judgment is not deserted in Islam."
Total bulldust! You would not know science if it bit you! If you knew anything of science you would not be putting this crap up here.
Oh no, belief is not blind but to try to convince another why I believe when they can not see the world as I do, I must appear blind in their eyes. While the verse about dust may indeed appear in Qu'ran it is also found throughout the Christian Bible. Which was authored and published long before the Qu'ran and in fact studied by the Prophet. On the subject of Science though I know from history most of what we know in the west as science and math are in fact borrowed from Islamic and Arabic principles encountered in the east during the crusades, and long before Islam or the crusades a man named Alexander marched to the plains of India and brought back much knowledge and wisdom that would be absorbed by his empire and the Roman one to follow. No one civilization has claim to the truth and source of knowledge. All have built on the work of those that came before them and those they conquered or traded with.
As for Einstein's equation the fact that anything can be converted into another form such as water being converted to ice and steam indicates that theses two forms are but another expression of the substance, as matter is merely an expression of energy, not a completely different substance if such a thing were possible then alchemist could indeed convert Lead to Gold. They can not however because Lead and Gold are not the same, but ironically both can be converted into energy.
It seems you are a bit confused about religion and science. Scientific knowledge is of course from one civilization to another. But the religious knowledge is from Allah (God) to different civilizations at different times one after another in succession. Even the first scientific knowledge was also from Allah to Adam (peace be upon him).
Qur'an, Ch 2-THE COW, V 31-33
31. And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."
32. They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."
33. He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"
The religious books and scriptures mostly came one after another in succession from the same Allah. The new one automatically outdates the previous one along with the testification that the prevous one was also from Allah just as a latest medical book outdates the previous one but does not say that the prevous medical book not even existed. Naturally the doctor has to follow the new one, no matter some portions of them will be same.
Qur'an, Ch 3-THE FAMILY OF IMRAN, V 3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
Now again, you travelled a lot but it does not mean you know a lot. Travelling is not directly proportional to learning / knowing. Why are you twisting the meaning of Einstein's equation. He did'nt say any thing can be converted to another form. Matter and Energy are not the two different forms of each other. These are two different things. Gold and Lead are the two different types of elements they can not be converted to each other even Einstein could not do that. Therefore, i will be gratefull if you do not twist science for justfying your own arguments just as wordscribe or any other atheist tries to do for justifying atheism or any other God less theories of life.
As you are convinced that belief is not blind then something correct after being observed as per logic must be presented to others just like a scientist when comes up with a new theory, he goes on to present it in front of others. After the presentation, if some one likes he / she can join you and if someone does not like, he / she is obviously allowed not to join you.
Qur'an, Ch 2-THE COW, V 256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
Now, if Islam claims to be the ultimate final way of life then as per logic, science and common sense it presents the whole of mankind the clear signs to believe. If we say there is something wrong with Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Atheism, Evolution, Materialism, Humanism then we have some valid reasons for that which we frequently present to others. And if some one does not agree with some reason or without any reason then there is no compulsion at all.
Here in this forum, i presented and discussed with wordscribe and others how she was lying about Stephen Hawking, how she turned her face after my logical reasoning and how we can not escape the influence and existence of Allah-THE ONLY ONE GOD WHOSE DESCRIPTION IS EVEN THERE IN BIBLES AND HINDUISM. AMAZINGLY THESE BIBLES AND OTHER MAJOR SCRIPTURES KNOCKED ABOUT PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH) AS BEING THE LAST AND FINAL MESSENGER TO BE FOLLOWED.
Your mission to spread your beliefs about Islam and religion are your own, as for my quote about Einstein I was replying to anothers statement about the subject, you think because you can quote the Qu'Ran that you are wise and educated, my friend you are confusing religion for wisdom and knowledge. You are only illustrating Wordscribe's point for her and making yourself look ignorant and a bit of a zealot, while I do appreciate you insulting my inteligence you need to get the facts straight my friend Christianity predates islam by 600 years and Judaism 1000, Hindu's nearly 2000, your Allah is just another name for something you obviously can not grasp or understand.That you can ignore historical truth and claim to be a man of truth and science is laughable. You need to get your head out of the QU'RAN and catch up with the rest of the modern world and Physics, matter and energy have indeed been proven to be one in the same. Einstein's equation is nearly 75 years old, time and math have moved on, when will people like you?
Snipped for the sake of brevity
I just wanted to post something so my "new" avatar shows up. Steph and I will be back there before long though.
Scott I do like your posts. They take a bit of concentration and for that reason may be "pearls before swine*" to those you are responding to. Still, I find them interesting and, in a round about way, humorous.
* Nothing like using biblical phraseology when posting to this forum.
Why thank you, I must admit that most of the debate going on is humorous when you stop to think about it, I mean really whats the point of it all? People believe what they will, since I believe in God, I have to respect his authority. So I leave it to him, in the mean time since I am surrounded by people he created then I should respect his creations. I have no illusions that i am fighting the good fight on these forums, it's entertainment and a chance to read some other ideas.
It seems you came here upon request of wordscribe in order to defend the filthiness she postesd against the concept of God. Your this very reply in which you made Einstein's equation to be 75 years old and rubbish proves that you are out of descent statemements along with some proof.
By the way something old like Hinduism does not proves that the oldy is more authentic and reliable. A latest Benz car is more outstanding as compared to 40 year old. So now, you take off your old clothes and try to educate your mind with the help of Qur'an - THE LATEST AND FINAL MANUAL FOR THE ULTIMATE AND ONLY ART OF LIVING FOR MANKIND.
What is does mean is that Hindus knew god and spread his knowledge many years before Muhammad came on this planet and Islam was born.
God doesn't change with time so don't compare him with a car which does have a life span.
God is beyond time and many Muslim mystics came to India as they were greeted here with honor.
A man of god is respected irrespective of which religion he is born into.
What you need to do is meditate open your mind , come across god for yourself and not only read about him from the Holy Quran .
Then you will be a man of god who can spread god knowledge , right now your knowledge is very limited and fanatical.
The Quran says to respect all prophets equally something you are not doing as you don't understand the prophets, religions or god.
My work is written now which means fifteen hundred years after the Holy Quran and is ranked over the Holy Quran as well. This DOES NOT mean I am greater than Muhammad or any of the prophets.
This completely ignores the Baha'i faith and their own "last prophet", Bahá'u'lláh. I would hazard to guess there will be more "great last" prophets to come.
We have also seen Guru Nanak who is considered a prophet by many including me.Then we have had many great masters like Sai Baba and Osho who were also great enlightened masters.
God will keep sending messengers till this ugly mess of my prophet or religion is the best stops.
If we say there is something wrong with Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Atheism, Evolution, Materialism, Humanism then we have some valid reasons for that which we frequently present to others.
You are a Muslim but have no idea what enlightenment or god is. My father is a Hindu and mother a Parsee and I am enlightened so you are way of in your philosophy as currently you cannot teach me about god while I can teach you.
So it doesn't make any difference at all as to what your religion is or isn't in order to know god.
The Quran instructs to respect all prophets even those not mentioned in the Holy Quran equally.
No, there is no further Prophet to come. Even according to Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity the last and final Prophet, RISHI or AVTAR is Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
The more I live and travel I am constantly forced to step outside of what I know and believe and examine things from another view. The truth being I don't know everything. For all the religions , faiths, philosophies and ideas there is one common denominator in all and that is man. So I study mankind to seek the truth. Somewhere in all of us, in our dreams, our hopes, and our needs in the most common of threads and questions. I think all of religion is but an expression of this question;"Do I matter?"
I believe all of us want to know the answer to this question. Am I more then a biological process and machine that is born, grows, consumes, then dies. Do I matter? That's a heavy question because if the answer is no then what's the point. Why would you try to do anything, why would this pain be worth it. Why would any of this ordeal we call life matter too. If life doesn't matter then there is nothing.Many do not like the idea of God because the idea that you are a slave to fate bound to one destiny no matter what you want or feel is deeply troubling and unsettling. Once again, if I don't matter and its not up to me then what's the point of going through all this life?
Predestination is not an idea of God though but of men and religions made to keep the masses subservient to those in power.
I throw that all out right now because it is contradictory to the notion of a loving God.For those of you that are opposed to God then at this point it doesn't matter. Let's talk about what does.
You matter, it's not an idea but a fact. You are here right now and you are aware that you are. This life is your life to decide and direct. No matter what you worship or believe the simple fact is when you decide that you are in control and start making decisions and taking action to have what you want, you start getting what you want. It's that simple. Why would any God or source give you the ability of mind and action to pursue what you want and desire if said being did not want you to use it. If they wanted you to use it, then who is really in control of your life? You matter now because you are the sole person responsible for the outcome of your fate.
It is a fallacy of religion to paint a portrait of the almighty whatever sitting up above you somewhere judging your every action and mistake. You are an expression of creation and so a being of creation, as such creation resides in you not above or around you. It is part of you and within you.It is up to you and no other to create the life you want.
People misquote the bible all the time and it infuriates me, in their drive to deify Christ they also downplay his tremendous teaching and philosophy about life. They sell themselves short of a great resource of practical wisdom shared by others throughout time. Many Christians rail against Buddha, Hindus, and Muslims, yet What Christ teached and urged is found in all these faiths, and philosophies. Discounting any one religion is to block yourself off from tremendous opportunity to grow and discover more truth.
Thank you for your comments. I'm not trying to sell anyone on any faith, because I guess for as much as I believe in God and Jesus I am also a student of the world and men as a whole. I see alot of Christ in other faiths, and alot of other faiths displayed in Christianity once again the common thread being man's questions.
Hi Earnest!!!! Lovin' your new avatar. And rather enjoying mine, myself. I feel somehow FREE. Might have to switch around more frequently. Hope you're well.
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