How do you know God exists ....?
If God is outside the realm of existence then He cannot manifest Himself here on Earth.
I have a very different way of looking at the whole thing. Of course I believe that the Buddha was the one who transcended the cycle of existence and achieved Nirvana (which is not existence nor non-existence.) However, once the Buddha did that he could no longer have any influence over our realm of existence.
This basic principle is why the Dalai Lama had to take a solemn vow to not achieve enlightenment until all sentient beings achieved enlightenment. In order to be in this world and have influence over existence you must still be in the realm of existence.
To put it in other words: In science there is the theory of multiple dimensions. Say 'existence' is one dimension and 'outside of existence' is another dimension. It is theoretically possible to move between dimensions but not to be in both dimensions at the same time. If you exist you are in 'existence', if you are enlightened you are 'outside of existence'.
So if God is 'outside of existence' He cannot have influence over our world.
Of course I don't believe Gods or heavenly beings are 'outside of existence'. I believe Heaven is just another transitory state of existence that we all move through during the cycle of birth and death. As such Divine Beings can exert some influence over our world. However, they did not create it nor do they choose where my life may take me. That is purely determined by my actions. I believe they do intervene on some occasions because they choose to and that's where 'miracles' come from.
But I would like to put a little perspective on my belief.
Say I was walking through the woods one day and saw a creek overflowing. A small stream branched off and was heading straight for an ant hill. I saw the ants and felt overwhelming compassion for them and didn't want to see them harmed so I dug a trench around one side of their hill to divert the water. In doing so I saved all the ants lives.
I was able to do that because on my level of existence I have the power to save ants and avert disaster in their 'world'. To them I may have been a miracle or a God...but am I? No.
I did not create the ants or their 'world'. I simply have the power to influence it in some pretty dramatic ways.
This is exactly how I see Divine Beings. From their perspective, from their level of existence they have the ability to affect our 'world' but they did not create us. In fact they were us, as we all move through these levels of existence at one point or another. As such they are still bound by the physics of the universe.
Once you make the decision to leave the cycle of existence and achieve enlightenment you can no longer exert influence over this world.
Therefore God as an omnipotent being who created the universe but is outside of the universe cannot possibly exist or non-exist.
That is my belief. Sorry for the long post!
Every religion will tell you to take out the time everyday and meditate.Focus on getting enlightened-becoming one with god and not on the behavioral pattern that will change automaticallly after enlightenment.Religion has everything to do with God.They are the teachings of the Prophets-the enlightened ones-the God-man.Like I said before dont blame the religion,its man who is to blame.
All religions are about knowing god.Spirituality ,religion and god all the same thing.
Each needs to find his or her own proof.
I never believed Krishna or Zaratushtra or Jesus till I came across God for myself.I was practising one pointed concentration while sailing in the merchant navy.Was trying to improve my concentration powers when I entered into a state of samadhi or got enlightened in the middle of the Atlantic ocean.
One merges with the light or god which is a state of absolute bliss.Now I am a poet/philosopher with abook called "Ponder Awhile" in which I share my story.Have al ook
http://www.amazon.com/Ponder-Awhile-Moh … 1419646729Dear VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA- according to Patanjali -the founder or father of Yoga meaning union with God-seven breaths of one pointed concentration will get you enlightened.
Interesting. It was reading the bible that made me understand that god is a man-made idea.
oh Mark you know that many of us believe that to us God Exists , why do you try to discredit those who are young in the word of God and choose to believe? Be nice as they are only trying to make their point known.
All clear now. Thanks for that.
LOL. Clear as rose colored crystal.
More like mud
jings
But to be serious for a sec, did anyone postulate an antichrist before christ? An ante-christ, if we can pun about it?
What's an 'energy record'?
What history is not 'past history'?
Let's at least try to make sense.
And god said unto Moses - Come forth! - but he came fifth and was disqualified.
Thom, you sly devil you (and I use that term in a way you will no doubt not interpret as a belief in god) - You already know the answer to this question
He doesn't exist. And never did other than as a word used to attempt to describe the absence of understanding of the universe.
As humans, we only understand what we can control. Before we learned to control fire, it was considered a god.
As our understanding of the physical universe grows, this word can only become more and more useless.
But - It makes no difference if He is there or not. None. If the only proof in god is faith, as the christians profess, how can it make any difference if He is there or not. You can still have faith regardless.But - It makes no difference if He is there or not. None. If the only proof in god is faith, as the christians profess, how can it make any difference if He is there or not. You can still have faith regardless.
What would be the purpose of faith if you have no doubt that God does not exist. Isn't it a bit of a misnomer?
My interpretation of faith, is believing in something you don't fully understand. So would this mean you have faith in evolution or the Universe, or Life etc? Or faith that, if you are wrong about the existence of God, that you will undoubtably be Ok?Faith is believing in something that cannot be proven. If god is proven, that means that there is no need for faith. Without faith, god is nothing. You can still have faith - whether god is there or not. (see the other thread for arguments against evolution, which proves that their version is not true. )
Are you starting to see the circularity of it?
I believe I am alive. I believe that evolution happens. I believe that the universe exists. But I can see it, feel it, smell it, taste it.
I believe that the sun will come up tomorrow - but only because I have watched it come up every day for the last 46 years
Paraglider - too rightBut this is subjective right? What is proof of God's existence...if it is what Yourself can see.
I have no need for faith.
I know the Universe exist because I can see it. I can not:
touch it, feel it, move it, taste it, or hear it or change it.
I know that evolution happens because I can see it. I can not:
touch it, feel it, move it, taste it, or hear it or change it.
I know that WE exist because I can see it, touch it, feel it, taste it, move it, use it, hear it, change it and love it etc.
But I can not:
Physically feel what you feel, what you taste, touch, hear, see, etc. that belongs only to yourself, can not be transferred not matter you do. I can't feel love the way you feel love.
I know that God exist because, I can see it, hear it, and feel it, taste it, use it, and love it.
but I can not:
change it, or transfer it to you as in to make you know what I know.
So since I have seen and heard God. God does exist. But what exist to me, is mine and mine alone. You can not see what I see, hear what I hear, know what I know, love what I love the way that I love it, feel what I feel etc.
What is funny is that you believe in what you can see because everyone else can (theoretically) see it as well. So I wonder what the bigger illusion is: What you think you see, or what you think you can't see?
It is more logical to me to believe in something I can feel.
No one can see God for what it actually is.
Can you actually see evolution for what it actually is???Cannot be proven. As I understand the meaning of god (or at least the christian, do-as-I-say, not-as-I-do-version) proof discounts faith. Therefore faith in the christian god must logically be un-proven. This is what they themselves preach. The minute it is proven, faith is destroyed. Whoever thought this one up was a god-like genius. No amount of logic or understanding will make it not TRUE.
It is fair to say there are other reasons that I believe the sun will come up tomorrow. But one of the main reasons I expect it to is the fact that I have personally watched it do so for my entire life.
I also believe the light bulb will come on when I hit the switch. If it blows often enough (as is happening in my house at the moment) I am ambivalent. It is probably going to come on, but I fully expect it to blow at some point.
I also have a box of spare ones handy in case that happens.I don't see anything in the theological definition which says that one can only have faith in something which cannot be proven.
The dictionary doesn't say that, which is why I am referring to it as a straw man.
Of course. But that's not what we are discussing. We are discussing a period of time BEFORE something has been proven, but during which time it is not theoretically impossible to prove, just practically not possible at the time due to lack of technology or similar constraints.
Well, I am not a believer in anything which is theoretically impossible to prove.
I do believe there is a genuine phenomenon occurring, which can be generally labelled "spiritual experience", and I believe that phenomenon is natural and will eventually be fully explained.
It hasn't been yet, though, so that particular belief of mine is based on faith.
You are missing my point.
I don't really care about the ins and outs of the current state of cancer research.
I used that as a EXAMPLE of something I consider to be an article of faith.
By cataloguing the lack of evidence for this belief you merely highlight my point that it is an article of faith to believe this at this juncture in history.
My point is that my article of faith is not unprovABLE, merely unprovEN.
Unprovability is not a requirement for faith.
Those who say it is deserve the mockery that Douglas Adams sent their way.
I don't think the buggy-whip manufacturers were interested in giving up their major cash cows, nor the coopers, nor the masons, nor the purveyors of snake oil for that matter ...
Conspiracy theories are naiive.
JennyLOL
No - but the buggy manufacturers and road building companies and government were quite happy to shift their focus from making buggies to making cars - regardless of the impact on the whip manufacturers and coopers. You are just looking too far down the food chain.
Didn't want to make an enormous quote quote
And a conspiracy theory ceases to become a theory when the evidence proves otherwise. See injecting American servicemen with various disease and exploding nuclear bombs with people deliberately placed to be able to measure the effects, Erin Brockovic, deliberately sacrificing troops and civilians in the hope of starting wars, etc, etc, etc.
I have first hand watched several conspiracy theories turn into facts.
Refusing to accept the way things are is naiiive.
based on the circumstances of life all together, no one knows anything at all, the only things we know or think we know are measured by what they produce as long as the results are somewhat consistant.
Math at some point is only good for measuring how long the day last or how many days you lived, but when you die, what difference did it make? Lifes is the joke. Everything we have or think we know is just a means to pass time away cause what else would we do?
Ok, then we are on the same page as far as what exist to what our own individual selfs know.
But how can you actually see evolution for what it actually is?
If seeing it is only through what it produces, then that is an illusion to what evolution actually is.
As I said before, I don't have any need for faith.Well we can keep this up as long as you like.
No. You have no idea what I have or have not EXPERIENCED.
Why do you pretend-religious people insist on shouting at everyone and TELLING THEM HOW IT IS?
Please do not wish me the best again. It doesn't really work when it's a standard "have a nice day." Version.
And the fact that I am convinced there is not a god means that I can accurately say that you do not exist for god. Because there is no god. Simple huh? If you just think about it.
i.e that you are wrong. It will all become clear. And the keys to not being a condescending so and so come from an awareness of this also. Keep on trying - you will see the LIGHT. (There's even a song about it.)
May you get all you deserve in this life.
Misha - the 70's.Mark Knowles wrote:
Well we can keep this up as long as you like.
No. You have no idea what I have or have not EXPERIENCED.
Why do you pretend-religious people insist on shouting at everyone and TELLING THEM HOW IT IS?
Please do not wish me the best again. It doesn't really work when it's a standard "have a nice day." Version.
And the fact that I am convinced there is not a god means that I can accurately say that you do not exist for god. Because there is no god. Simple huh? If you just think about it.
i.e that you are wrong. It will all become clear. And the keys to not being a condescending so and so come from an awareness of this also. Keep on trying - you will see the LIGHT. (There's even a song about it.)
May you get all you deserve in this life.
Misha - the 70's.[/quote
Mark, if you had experienced God, then you wouldn't be telling us there was no God. Therefore, it was a safe bet to say you had not experienced God.
Nor have I told you "how it is" to use your words. It's impossible for me to tell you how it is...I told you it's not transferable, you can only experience it.
As for wishing you the best, I would not deign to tell you what to write or what not to write. I choose that for myself as well.
As for your convictions about the non-existence of God, a member of an isolated tribe in South America might be "convinced" that there is no city called Chicago. That belief by the tribal member, who has never experienced Chicago, doesn't make his erroneous belief true.
You call my clarity condescending. And you call me a "so and so." Maybe the South American tribal member would consider you a condescending so and so for insisting that Chicago exists.
You've asked for evidence of the existence of God while at the same time insisting there is no God. If you didn't want an answer to your question, and were merely posing a rhetorical question, you should have said so. Otherwise, please don't complain when the answer is given to you.
I've provided you with the method for discovering the evidence yourself.
To make that discovery, you have to use the right tools, i.e., you can't weigh yourself with a tape measure. Likewise, you can't prove or disprove the existence of God with the mind. The proper tools are joy, love, forgiveness and gratitude.
The best to you.
Kelley Eidem
If I was to believe so strongly and so vehemently and so unquestioningly that god existed then I would also believe that his / her / its non existance is not possible. But if that eventuality was to occur then I believe that the universe would plunge into infinate chaos, and that is how you would know.
Or maybe nobody would answer my prayers.....Ok, I was reading a hub from commentonthis7. He said that Adam was created by God,and Eve was created from Adams rib. He said they didn't have belly buttons.
I said however, if they didn't have belly bottons, then we were not created in God's image.
He said that our belly bottons were made after Adam and Eve having children. So I do say, it was a process of evolution.
So another tasty tid bit woud be to say, we are still evolving into God's image.
Hmmmmm.....LOL.
sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
0So check it out Thom.
Mark says that God does not exist.
I say God does exist.
Mark says " " does not exist. Because " " is nothing, doesn't exist.
I say that " " does exist because " ", that doesn't exist, still exist in it's space. That
" " is still something.
I said that you can not actually see evolution for what it actually is. You can only see it through what it produces. What evolution produces is consistancy.
So I am pretty sure that we are actually thinking the same thing. What Mark has is nothing and I have something. ( not in a biblical sort of way)
Radically, even though we are speaking in exact opposition of the outcome. We are actually talking about the same thing. But neither of us can define what it actually is. So then it is the Alpha and Omega.
It's almost like Mark and I are playing Alpha and Omega.
Of course this may not make sense to anyone but Mark, so it really is funny. LOLOL.
The only thing my mind can not comprehend is nothing because even nothing is something. That is God to me.
You know plus other stuff, that everyone is capable of doing whether believing or not believing.
Or as I like to say, there is no such thing as nothing, so I think in Marks terms, he is also saying there is no such thing as nothing. But this nothing is what I call God which is always something.It is funny. And that's the point LOL
Doesn't help Thom's question though. If it was gone - would you notice ?I think the better question is...if I was gone, would I notice. LOL
Graceful Guardianposted 16 years ago0I know, were gonna write all the same things here that we wrote there. LOL.
Excellent. Another fascinating thread. I have been away from my computer for a few days (preparing the house, nursery, etc. for the arrival of the next generation of believers
).
Thank you.
I would respectfully disagree with the premise that God cannot be experienced in any sensory way whatsoever. I believe He can. If by sensory you mean seeing, hearing, touching, etc. I can give examples of hearing and feeling Him. I must admit, I have not seen Him yet, but it's only a matter of time. Whether these examples satisfy the asker or not is another matter. I will give a few if you want...
If God ceased to exist, so would we and everything else. In my opinion, nothing exists apart from Him. I don't know if we would know, we just wouldn't be.I second that. The Holy Spirit does not happen inside your head. Actually, your head gets in the way.
That is true.
LOL Thom, is it your response to Mark's Atheism Rules! thread? You have quite a lot to catch up with - his thread is approaching 1000 posts fast
I have not read your thread anyway, so I'm heading to the first page now - to see if I can add something meaningful by chancesandra rinckposted 16 years ago0Welcome back Misha. How was your weekend? I only saw that post too late LOL
They tell me it only hurts the first time - that right? Thanks Mark
It did not hurt even the first time. Some interesting experience - I think I'll post something on this later...Glad to hear it. I narrowly avoided the same thing a few years ago. 120mph in a 55 in Loooziana. 1 in the am. The cop looked at my paper English drivers license and said, "What's that then boy?"
After I explained that this was indeed an English driver's licence I could see the cogs whirring and he finally came to the conclusion that it would be too much paperwork. he handed it back and told me to slow down. Whew !
I wasn't so lucky in the wilds of Virginia. $650 fine for 95 in a 55.
it wasn't sarcasm, obviously I am in the same number as you. I just want to know what happened. I wonder because you are talking exactly like I was talking just a few months ago.
I am your friend if you can believe that.
sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0Guys,
You both intrigued me. I'm dying to learn how that happens. Could you share? Just one example, pleaaaaase..titlef this God that you believe in so strongly and so vehemently and so unquestioningly suddenly ceased to exist, how would you know? >>>
The question implies we are separate from God, which is what many religions teach; that God is somewhere above, and we are in this planet (below), hence the separation that humanity experiences. I believe we are all God; every part of creation IS God. If God ceased to exist, we will all cease to exist as well, and never know. At least this is what I believe.
(like this cool shades smiley, LOL)Thom – I disagree with Peter and Sandra – of course LOL
What they and every other religious person is attempting to describe is an awareness of and connection to everything around us that is deeper than the usual five senses. Not a god. No greater purpose. Or porpoise. Or rules that must be followed. No requirement for you to pray for some one else.
We no longer feel this connection on a daily basis, having spent an awful lot of time physically cutting ourselves off from the world we inhabit. (see ipods, air-conditioned cars, heated offices etc etc etc)
This is not a connection to god. And if this is the name Peter and Sandra have given this connection, then in their words, it is not possible to exist without this. It just is. I don’t know what would happen if you took this away, but the only way I can see it not existing is if everything ceased to exist at the same time. I guess this is what they mean by saying that if god stopped existing, they would also.
But in my understanding of it, there is no need for rules, no need or requirement to preach, no need to give it a name, no frustration that others cannot see what I see. No need to help other people find it. No rules!
This woman, Judith Anodea has some stuff worth reading:
http://www.sacredcenters.com/index.html
If you ignore the flowery, new-agey, health and healing of the planet stuff it is palatable and interesting. The “Wheels of Life,” is a good place to start. I have not read the book Jenny mentions, so I can’t comment on that one, but I would suspect the goal is the same, even if the method and explanation differs.
What needs to happen is for a person to experience this connection themselves. And to the extent that no-one else can feel it for you or with you, it happens in your head. Even if you and I sit and look at something – I cannot see what you are seeing, or feel what you are feeling. (Well, I can sometimes, but that’s a whole different discussion.)
It seems to me you are similar in outlook and experiences to me, so I will try and explain it in ways I understand it. Might help - might not LOL
What needs to happen is an alteration of your consciousness. There are lots of ways to achieve this, but many of the old ways involve a degree of physical discomfort or repeated behaviour. Many religions have rituals to help you achieve this. Mantras that you repeat over and over and over. Chanting. Wearing a hair shirt and whipping yourself. The Latin Mass. Sweat lodges. And on and on. They are all striving for the same thing. The Christians call it a connection to god, the American Indians call it walking in the spirit world, the Yogics call it Kundalini rising. On and on. The Martial artists call it Chi development (And this particular connection is quite different to the others) Not quite all the same, but similar.
It doesn’t require faith, although a determination that it cannot happen will certainly get in the way – In that, I agree with Peter and Sandra – if that’s what they mean?
Sometimes, this connection also happens by mistake and it can freak you out LOL Also, it is possible to be in the presence of some one else who can “Turn it on,” for you. Sometimes unbeknownst to them.
It requires some effort on your part usually. Some people spend years practicing yoga and never make the connection. Although, as I understand it, just attempting is also beneficial.
Jenny believes that this will some day be measurably by the god, “Science.” But I am not so sure. For me it is not necessary to measure it, or give it a name and convince any one else of it. You either feel it or you don’t. And you can choose not to. And, like Peter’s and Sandra’s god – it is there whether you are aware of it or not.
I won’t bother sharing any anecdotal evidence with you – But I will say that you can make the same connection in plenty of other ways. A good bottle of Tequila and too long in a hot tub on a starry night can do it LOL
I myself found it from a combination of years of Martial arts practice, years as a massage therapist and an openness to whatever was out there. There are easier ways if you are looking for it. I wasn’t.
It’s hard to explain something you cannot sense using the usual senses. But, have you ever had the feeing that some one was watching you when there was no one around? Or become anxious for no reason? Or had the hairs stand up on the back of your neck without knowing why? Our sympathetic nervous system is more closely locked into this awareness than our parasympathetic one. (Of course Jenny will probably beat up my rudimentary scientific explanation lol)
But this is the defense mechanism part of this connection. I think much of our day to day stress comes from the fact that we rarely use our sympathetic nervous system. And when we do, it is often at an inappropriate time when we are not actually threatened. Most of the traditional ways of making this connection play into the parasympathetic nervous system, but using this one makes a very strong connection.
So, long answer short – no one can explain this to you. You must experience it for yourself. No faith needed. LOL And you may need to explore a few avenues of approach before you find the right one.
And it doesn’t matter if you don’t. You are certainly not going to hell if you don't lol.None of this. This is all stuff that has been added by the person doing the experiencing. My personal thinking (I hesitate to use the word "belief,") is that this is a straight-out throwback to a time when we were able to sense predators, prey and were more in tune with our environment than we are now. It just is. Watch a cat stalking something. No matter how silent, the something somehow becomes aware of the cat - sometimes
Me too. This is all just added stuff. Nothing mystical about this connection. And it is very much a this-worldy connection.
If you mean thinking the same thing as your partner, or both deciding at the same time that you want spaghetti bolognese for dinner. Or finishing each other's sentences - Maybe.
Jenny made some good points too. I certainly feel better having made the connection, but I do not feel the need to give it a greater purpose or ascribe it to a "creator," or make up terms that are meaningless by themselves.
The book I suggested is written in a way that appeals to the western mind. Try it - all you will have wasted is a few quid.
But there are definitely things you can do to make this connection if you want to. No blind faith, no needing to listen to some one preach about what you should or shouldn't do.
And even if you make the connection it is real easy to fight it or allow yourself to be distracted away from it. The Christians will tell me I am denying God and some of them will tell me I am going to hell when I do this. But if they had a genuine connection - they wouldn't be saying these things. Jesus - if he even existed - probably had a strong connection. I think he is a made up construct/amalgam to try and explain this and give the church some degree of power over you when you feel this. But I am aggressively antagonistic towards the church and am prepared to accept that I might be overdoing this
I personally choose to turn it off most of the time because it is so strong for me and I am so aware of the "invisible," connections that I am almost unable to function on a day to day basis. Instead I channel the energy in other directions. Such as writing prolifically on the internet LOLLOL
Cannot. Don't need to. Don't want to. Not important.
Neither will I be telling you what you should be doing. Nor asking you for any money, tithes etc.
Nor telling you that this connection in any way shape or form has told me how you should live your life - or even how I should live mine.
Don't care if you believe it or anyone else believes it. Won't be going to war over it or burning anyone at the stake who doesn't believe it.
Are we seeing the difference yet?LOL - Cop out. I think I explained myself very clearly. This is what a tithe is:
A tenth part of one's annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax, especially for the support of the clergy or church.
That is different to giving to charity. You used the word tithe first.
If you had said, "Give 10% of my earnings to charity," I would not have mentioned the word.LOL - Cop out. I think I explained myself very clearly. This is what a tithe is:
A tenth part of one's annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax, especially for the support of the clergy or church.
That is different to giving to charity. You used the word tithe first.
If you had said, "Give 10% of my earnings to charity," I would not have mentioned the word.
And you know what happens to prophets?
Still formulating the correct response.
Mental institution? Jail?LOL
I don't want to end up nailed to two pieces of wood.
I have no Father to resurrect me.
Sounds to me like you have reached a very deep, peaceful, joyous and continous trance state to me and that you are practicing carefully to sustain this state of mind.
Chances are if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck but isnt a white duck it might be the ugly duckling instead!
Interesting that you promote this Eckhardt guy, sounds like a cult leader to me hmmmm.
But I digress w/e floats ur boat.
Imo the kind of meditation you are practicing and studying does not raise traditional intellectual cognition (that related to IQ concepts) at all, only bodily and emotional cognition, and I would like to add at the cost of the intellectual cognition if it is not done in moderation!"This state I am talking about is ALWAYS available, reliably joyous, and completely trustworthy. Unlike any other human being"
I found this interesting as I was digging.
What you have just described here is a mere altered state of consciousness which I have experienced many times, before and after I was "religiously" inclined. Except that now I interpret it as a feeling that is deeply satisfying and connects me to other things/people and not as some sort of objective "spiritual" force outside of my own mind or experience.
Surely if there is any evidence that this exists outside of my own mind other than the fact that we are all part of the universe, then I will heed the facts and take them to heart.
My understanding of "spirituality" is completely subjective, e.g. I feel it exists but I know it is more of a "self contained" experience.
Dr. Persinger I think his name is, does tests on "spiritual" experiences that are quite interesting. I have found him to be a source of good information.
Perhaps the mistake people make is taking this experience to be dogmatically true in one form or another and then persecuting people who do not adhere to "spiritual information" that was "discerned" while in this trance. For me, this is the true definition of madness, joy experienced and "lessons" learned that get translated into misery for other people who do not believe similarly.
I am willing to bet that if the human organism could be genetically modified in such a manner that this trance state was unattainable, there would be no "God" talk possible except by those who were still unmodified. That would suck though, because then one could not experience the joy that is inherent for being in this state for hours or even days at a time.
I definitely would not call this state "true being" or "permanent". Most people who practice trained forms of dissociation that I have heard or read about suffer from withdrawals if they become psychologically and or physiologically dependent on the trance state for emotional and psychological ability and/or daily functioning. I have read about people who practiced this state suffering from migraines when they could not get their "daily meditation" in, after years of practicing and seeking it as much as possible.
Just like anything else, moderation is key. Nature is such an exacting taskmaster when the human organism does too much of any one thing. People delude themselves by "thinking" otherwise, but the human organism can become dependent on just about anything, and indeed is dependent on several things just to continue to exist on a day by day or week by week basis.
Would this spiritual experience be considered "necessary" for the human organism to psychologically survive the harsh realities of life? I think there is a very good case that could be made that it is necessary, as some of the best ways of dealing with stress and finding emotional joy include going into the exact state your describing Jenny.
I have been there many times and will be there many more, supposing I don't get hit by a steaming mad 800 pound gorilla.
P.S.
I usually have three rules of thumb that I stick with when examining the frequency with which I attain or try to attain any one thing:
Balance through moderation
Asserting will when balance is lost by spiting myself and abstaining from the thing in question
Doing the contrary action if it is not harmful so as to promote balance.
For me balance is key in all areas of life.
Doing this enables me to try to avoid egregious transgressions that will result in my own nature taking me to task for what I have done to unbalance one part of my whole body (the mind being but one part of the body and not separate).
When I find it is too difficult to restore balance, I at least admit I feel that way about it and do not attempt to rationalize my actions (such as smoking).
This is my own view of things and I think it is safe to say in the "religion" forum that this "obviously has no more weight than you want to assign it".
/me grins mischievously
Well guys,
You finally got to the core of it. And it appears Mark is pretty much as "religious" as Sandy or Peter - just calling his experience different names. I strongly suspected this before, but I think this is the first time Mark stated his experience so clear and unambiguously.
And looks like Thom and myself are the only real "atheists" around - i.e. those who did not have such an experience as you guys describe. I don't know about Thom, but I kinda feel jealous and disappointed - why it is you guys are already there - and I can't, despite many years of working of it? What I am doing wrong? IDK, and this frustrates me a lot
I don't think it should frustrate you, Misha. Each of us are what we are. We see the world/universe/life/religion all differently. I'm a pagan living with an atheist husband and raising agnostic children! LOL
In my opinion, an atheist is one who thinks along tangible and proven terms. A fundamentalist is one who think solely along the lines of faith. Then there are those of us in the middle. I'm an evolutionist and have a great love of Anthropology and Biology. I'm also a person who sees the Earth itself as a living entity and has faith in a "Source" with his aspects being the gods and goddesses that I worship. I have learned to divide the lines between science and faith and love them separately.
But then again, I'm not the type of person who requires proof for my own beliefs. They just are. THATS the difference between me and my husband - and between you and others who have had religious experience.
I don't think you should be, in any way, disappointed or jealous. I think one of the atheist's core philosophies is beautiful. Atheists tend to believe that this life is it. From the second we born to the second we die is all we have - and that life should be celebrated and lived to the utmost! If you aren't religious, you just ARENT. Enjoy your life and live it without regret.Oh yes, you're absolutely right. I should have included a tag like "religious fundamentalists" which is what I was referring to.
I agree that atheism has it's more "aggressive" proponents, however, I see most atheists with a Richard Dawkins type philosophy. Intelligent, caring, and good people. It's a shame that others can't look past an atheists lack of faith and see who they really are. Same can be said for us pagans in the wider community as people cannot get over the term "pagan", "witch", or "witchcraft" and accept us as good, law abiding humans with a valid belief system.
Thanks for the welcome!
Thanks KW (do you have a name btw? I prefer to call people by their names
)
I do appreciate what you say - and I pretty much agree to you. I wasn't clear enough in my post, though, and was using words religious and atheist outside of their commonly accepted meanings - which probably confused you.
I am not frustrated about being what I am - but I am frustrated with my failure to experience this feeling of connectedness that guys are talking about. I want to experience it, and I'm working on it for quite some time already - and I still can't get there. This is what is causing frustration... If I understand this correctly, all people are capable of getting there. If I'm not there, I'm doing something that prevents me from getting there - and I don't understand what it is I'm doing or not doing that interferes with the desired output.
Is it any clearer?Misha wrote:
Kitchy Wytch wrote:
My name is Stacy.
Actually you were quite clear to begin with. I understand your frustration at the lack of experience. However, I think that experiencing something you don't believe in at your core is a moot exercise. One has to have faith in order to experience a faith-based phenomena, IMO. If you don't agree with this, then perhaps the answer is not to try so hard. Just let things happen. Join a local paranormal group as a "skeptic" and go on paranormal investigations, etc. Learning to listen with ALL your senses and not just with your logic will help.
In my spiritual Path, the connectedness I feel with the universe is inherent, almost. It all has to do with my world view and how I perceive nature, people, the cosmos, and the spiritual plane. I believe that to be true with all faiths or belief systems. It's all about how you see the world and everything in it.Nice to meet you, Stacy
So, basically what you are implying is that in order to get there I should stop trying, right?No, never guided meditation. There was a period in my life when I meditated quite regularly for long periods - but this was all by myself. And I don't really do this anymore.
As for an open mind - I'm definitely trying. I can't say I'm always open-minded - but hey, nobody's perfect
Just take this last weekend - spending it in jail - first day in the crowded room with lots of sensory information - second day practically locked alone in the room, pretty quiet and undisturbed. Does it seem like a very contrasting experience that could possibly trigger something? Well, it didn't... May be because I was expecting it to?
Not so Misha.
I tried to explain what atheism is in the other thread and this is an excerpt.
Atheism is a critique and a denial of the central metaphysical beliefs of systems of salvation involving a belief in God or spiritual beings, but a sophisticated atheist does not simply claim that all such cosmological claims are false but takes it that some are so problematic that, while purporting to be factual, they actually do not succeed in making a coherent factual claim. The claims, in an important sense, do not make sense, and, while believers are under the illusion that there is something intelligible to be believed in, in reality there is not. These seemingly grand cosmological claims are in reality best understood as myths or ideological claims reflecting a confused understanding of their utterers' situation.
But please don't accuse me of having a religion.I can accuse you of being "spiritual" instead, if that suites your beliefs better
LOL
Slightly better But still not accurate.
I know God exist from His creation (the Earth, the moon etc).
The more one has knowledge, the more one will find God.
He will find God when he is studying the complicated blood system in a human body.
He will find God when he figures out that all the planets will collide into each other without a "strange yet powerful power" that dictates the planets to run on their designated course.
He will also find God when he realizes that there is no way he can created a living thing, even a speck of cell.
And he will find God when the day comesKnol, based on the cars mentioned I guess you are talking to me - and this leaves Thom kinda completely confused
Not to say it does not leave me confused, too. I appreciate you trying to help, I can't understand what you are suggesting, though... What is about this another identity? Sorry, could you try to re-phrase?
LOL Mark, you reminded me of SparklingJewel. You both like to use traditional words in not-so-traditional meanings - and then expect everybody to accept and assume this meaning by default. As much as I admire you both - this is just not going to happen
LOL
You really need to go back and read what I wrote to ThomThere is a difference between wordly knowledge and Godly knowledge. What lives forever is Godly knowledge, and all the knowledge you need to know about God is in your heart.
If Mark was trying to tear down the church I would understand and stand with him, but he isn't, instead he is trying to convince people that there is no God with worldly knowledge because it's easy and pleasing and you get instant results in much the same way as christians believe that the sheer acceptance of Jesus as thier savior will instantly qualify them for heaven.
There aren't any short cuts when it comes to God, these short cuts heed disasters.
Don't like what I said, that's your choice, your life and your understanding. God isn't easy, but God is easy to Love and when you really love God, God loves you right back.
Being able to love something you can't see looks stupid to the person watching on the outside because wordly knowledge that is in the mind says, I can't see it, so she must be crazy, and the ones who see God look right back with Godly knowledge and say, if you only knew.I didn't ask anything of you. And I don't recall you asking anything of me. At least not here.
If you have seen god - you have nothing to fear. No confusion. Everything is clear to you. Yes?
And, whether you like it or not - we both share the same worldSorry - You have lost me. I don't think I have all the answers. The questions - Maybe
I don't recall ever trying to give anyone an answer other than as I see things. Which does not include a god.
The only thing I am sure of is you are angry. And if changing the direction of that anger from the bible or the church to me helps - go right ahead. Not sure I have done anything to deserve it but knock yourself out.
Didn't get the whole veil/fuel thing - sorry.
Sandy,
I long suspected Mark speaks out of what you call "godly" knowledge. And now I'm pretty much sure about it. His knowledge differs from yours though - but I don't think this classifies his knowledge as "wordly". You often struggle with words trying to get your message across, too. This is all because you guys are talking about subjects that don't have words associated with them, and you have no choice but to use metaphors...
My knowledge is definitely "wordly", and that's why among you guys I prefer to listen and ask mostly
*waiting for Jenny to chime in and put everything in order*
She certainly has a way with words.
Ok, Misha. But I would never tell anyone that God does not exist. So if you never see God, don't knock on God's door demanding something from Him that you are already not willing to accept. There really is no God for one who already believes there is no God.
That's the problem when you talk to Mark. God on his book is a fellow on the cloud deciding whether you go to hell or heaven. Like them picture him in churches. Don't tell me you are going to argue THIS god exists
What you call God, Mark calls something else - and this is the whole point of your current disagreement with him.
EDIT: Well, I think it is - he thinks differently - see below I only want to tell you guys that I love you both, and it hurts me when you are arguing like this. It really is not worth it - on my books I don't think so, Misha. Current disagreement based on something else.
Not sure what exactly, but that's OK
sandra rinck wrote:
That's funny because I am asking you the same thing. I fell in love with the world a long time ago, then I fell in love with God. The difference is that I have seen God, and you haven't. I never asked to see God, never desired evidence, never gave it a second thought, but God approahed me anyways, why because I didn't need to have to see Him to believe Him.
This is your world, not mine. I just live hear serving people and get nothing in return. I don't want anything that man can offer me but a smile and a kind word.
Mark Knowles wrote:
I didn't ask anything of you. And I don't recall you asking anything of me. At least not here.
If you have seen god - you have nothing to fear. No confusion. Everything is clear to you. Yes?
And, whether you like it or not - we both share the same world big_smile
sandy wrote:
nope, I have seen God and have everything to fear. And just because I am here doesn't make it my world. We may take up some space in the world together, but we do not share the same world. God gave us everything freely what man did with it is another story, including God.
You think you also have all the answers. You are no better than anyone else who claims to have the answers. Which actually makes you very much like a Christain. No one is going to lift the veil of deception from your eyes, but you are throwing more fuel to the fire.
You said yourself there is a better way, but I don't see you doing it.
That is the whole point ! They are at a crossroad, meeting, pausing, consulting, before deciding which way to go, or for Mark, even just to move on.
IMHO, except Sandy is moving on because she knows there is more to know, she knows wrestling with "demons" within and without, is a next step.
Mark seems to like being where he is, likes to feel he knows enough and theres nothing more important to learn. I recognize his deep core fear, but its his choice staying where he is.
I have hit plateaus, too. I found that pausing too long at that crossroad sets up the human ego for the stagnation and even the fall, again. I have had to retrace acquired attainment many times. eventually I learned.
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