Do you agree with this statement on society from a famous personage.

1. 86

   My Esotericposted 9 years ago

   " Order is the first need for any society—only then can liberty and justice be reasonably secure"
   
   Why do you agree or why don't you agree?

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   1. 79

      Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Civility and a lack of order cannot coexist. Without civility, you cannot have society. Peace does not come naturally and without it, life would be miserable.

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2. 69

   wrenchBiscuitposted 9 years ago

   To answer this question, I must first look at  another quote by Russel Kirk: “If you want to have order in the commonwealth, you first have to have order in the individual soul.”  In this quote one may feel that "order in the individual soul" implies a "moral code", but this is only conjecture. Consequently, when we look at the statement you are referring to, I cannot see in either quote any indication that Kirk included "moral code" in his concept of "order". Order does not necessarily imply a moral code, as order can be found in the Konzentrationslager, the tax collectors office, or a house of whores. Considering this, I would disagree with his statement, and will amend as follows:
   
   "A moral code is the first need for any society to bring about a social order—only then can liberty and justice be reasonably secure. To institute order without a moral code not only invites tyranny, but guarantees it! "

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   1. 86

      My Esotericposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      How about this from his First Principle - "That order is made for man, and man is made for it: human nature is a constant, and moral truths are permanent."

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      1. 95

         wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         But human nature is not a constant, and moral truths are never permanent nor universal.

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         1. 69

            wrenchBiscuitposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            In order to understand the constancy of human nature, one must first be human. In order to understand the permanence of moral truths, one must first possess a moral compass.

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3. 78

   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

   May I take your order?
   
   
   What is order based On?
   
   "Social order in sociology, history and other social sciences, referring to the conduct of society." Wikipedia
   
   The conduct of society is based on what?
    
   The desire for Harmony?
   
   or something else?

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   1. 86

      My Esotericposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      One of the major differences between Conservatism and Liberalism is which came first, the chicken or the egg.
      
      Conservatives believe that society came first and out of that came the Rights of Man as that society deems fit to give (this includes the religious society)
      
      Liberals believe the Rights of Man came from a "state of nature" which existed before society formed, be it a clan or a nation.
      
      Liberals believe these Rights are "inalienable" while the Conservatives believe they are "alienable" (yes, there is such a word)..

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      1. 95

         wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         No wonder the liberals are so screwed up: the only "right" of nature is to eat or be eaten.  In addition, rights can only be "inalienable" when there is sufficient force to ensure them; something nature never does.

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