I firmly believe that it is wrong to bust up unions.
And I think it is pretty obvious that's what the governor of Wisconsin is trying to do.
Okay, you may start slapping me around now.
I also support the Teachers of Wisconsin. And the Firefighters of Wisconsin. And the Police of Wisconsin.
I'm with you, as are the police and firefighters of Wisconsin.
I assume you're a liberal demicrat probably a teacher and probably a union member. As such im sure you also revere FDR who by the way was strongly opposed to public service unions. I'm all for unions if they're voluntary and not part of the public sector workforce.
> I support spell check.
To tell the truth, I probably missed it. Spell check almost certainly caught it. Sigh...
Anyway, I cannot respond to all the comments I have seen here, but I will say this much:
First, yes, I am a liberal and I do usually vote for Democrats.
I read The Huffington Post and The Nation.
I do not revere FDR. I like much of what he accomplished, but I also think he was wrong about lots of stuff.
Yes, I am a school teacher. My wife and I both teach high school German in South Carolina. I have been doing this since 1979. We think it's an important job and we try to do it well.
We do not discuss American politics with our students.
I do not belong to a union. I belong to the Palmetto State Teachers' Association. Why? Well, we simply do not have teachers' unions in South Carolina.
I see a need for unions, though. I think that it often takes a union to prevent the exploitation of workers. Denying bathroom breaks and refusing to pay for overtime come to mind.
Some unions are better than others. I know that. That is true for businesses, too, is it not?
The state employees in Wisconsin have offered to accept Scott Walker's financial adjustments. They simply do not want to lose their unions or their right to collective bargaining. That's what I seem to be reading and hearing anyway. And I support them in this. All the way.
I also think that only unions are left to resist the many billionaires who have thrown virtually unlimited money at Carl Rove in support of an agenda I detest. No other entity is big enough for that job.
I appreciate the remarks you all have posted here and I cherish their right to disagree with me.
And I thank Hubpages for providing this forum.
Now, I am going to find The Ballad of Joe Hill on You Tube now. I like the Joan Baez version the most. ;-)
Have a great evening everyone.
And I will spell-check this before I submit it. I promise!
I support the Taxpayers of Wisconsin. After all, aren't they the ones paying the salaries of the "public servants?"
Why do you support the unions in the first place? Are the robber barons back?
In the case of the teachers, taking off work to protest really shows where their true interests are, and it is not on educating the students. If you are that unhappy with your job, find another one.
Well said and I agree! What a selfish act these teachers are portraying....
The robber barons are back and they are called wall street and their republican cronies.
"Why do you support the unions in the first place? Are the robber barons back? "
Yes, one of them is the Wisconsin governor, who spent his way out from under a surplus and now wants to pay for the tax breaks he gave to his cronies by gutting public employees.
Also, the public employees have already agreed to take a financial hit for the team; they agreed to every financial concession on the governor's list. But that wasn't enough for him. He wants to revoke their collective bargaining rights. That's what the fight is about.
Did the robber barons ever leave?
And I think it's a great lesson to their students, and undoubtedly more important than anything they would have learned in school.
And these teachers teach your kids. What do you think they teach them? Ever wondered why are we getting "entitlement mentality" generation?
oh please.. come on Misha.
the entitlement mentality doesn't come from teachers, it comes from parents who give their kids whatever they want and fail to be consistent with boundaries.
Anyone inside of schools on a daily basis could see that pretty clearly. I agree with you, rebekahELLE.
Sorry rebekah, but I feel that's the same with Government & Government employees. Gov = parents, Gov Employees = children.
Perhaps it isn't the same in all states?
I take it you already sent your check to pay their health insurance?
And many parents certainly are a part of the problem, but if you fail to see how teachers who totally depend on government and demand their benefits no matter what raise students who totally depend on government and demand their benefits no matter what, I can't really help it.
Misha, are you saying that how teachers are paid has a direct influence on how students are "raised"? I don't see any correlation here. I also don't believe it's a teacher's job to "raise" his/her students. I do think, however, that those who raise the children bear the burden for how those children turn out.
Well, I don't think teachers 'raise' students. They teach every student that enters their classroom, despite how the student is raised at home. And it's not an easy job. We have different perspectives politically, so there's no reason to say, if I fail to see the issue as you do...
I am a union retiree also,but someone is going to have to give up a little or the United States will crumble.
I have to pay for health insurance,and so should other Union members.The way the world is turning makes Notridomus predictions more right all the time.
We are the entitlement generation because of the deliberate dumbing down students so they will be happy working on teh global palntation for the multinational corporations. It wa doen through both democratic and republican admins.
The public employees in WI have already agreed to the salary, health insurance and pension cuts. It's not about the budget, it's about not losing their collective bargaining rights. It's odd how those that give their lives to public service are now vilified as the enemy, they didn't create the deficit. Give all the power to corporate America? Who will then be the voice for the students?
The teachers want the public to believe that their collective bargaining rights for health insurance and pensions affects their ability to properly teach the students. I don't buy it. I've never worked with collective bargaining rights and I was still able to do my job properly.
The governor wants to limit collective bargaining to wages only in order to protect the taxpayers against higher taxes now, and in the future, by state employees contributing to their own pensions and a little more to their own health insurance. The governor would rather control government spending than layoff thousands of government employees.
What the governor has proposed is not unreasonable.
I disagree. His position is not reasonable. He is not negotiating. He has made it clear that he does want to bust the union.
I don't consider that reasonable and apparently neither do many of his Republican peers.
The governor has NOT proposed to bust the union! That is only what everyone wants to believe. (good way to get the heart pumping!!)
No he just wants to make it so that the union can't bargain for better working conditions, smaller class sizes, and pretty much anything that people organize to bargain for. That's all.
Really? Then why isn't he entertaining the Republican proposal to put a 2-year moratorium on collective bargaining? He rejected it outright without discussion.
He is showing, by example, what it would be like without unions. Management would say take it or leave it and most workers would have no choice but to take it.
Well said. The Gov. spent a surplus and created this crisis. In spite of this gross malfeasance, the state employees have agreed to all financial concession the Gov. asked for. But that's not enough: he wants their collective bargaining rights.
"The governor would rather control government spending than layoff thousands of government employees."
Then why did he spend his surplus, and more than his surplus, to create this crisis?
He doesn't care about government spending in general, he only cares about spending on stuff like education, police, firefighters, etc.
"The teachers want the public to believe that their collective bargaining rights for health insurance and pensions affects their ability to properly teach the students. I don't buy it."
Except health insurance and pensions aren't the only things affected by a teacher's collective bargaining. They also negotiate how much prep time they get paid for, and how large their classes can be, and so on. You never worked in a union shop so you feel like collective bargaining is unnecessary? Sure, try teaching 20 students. Okay, now teach 30 students for the same pay, even though your workload just increased by 50% (more, actually).
The best thing the teachers could do to underline their point is to only work the hours for which they're contracted. No extra time before or after school, and when the cutoff time arrives, boom, that's it, they're outta there, no papers taken home to correct, no showing up to support the science fair, the sports teams, the school musical, nothing.
The problem with that kind of tactic is this: the kids will suffer, and most teachers won't make the kids their victims just to prove a point.
How many posters here are and were teachers in the public school setting?
it's the most stressful,thankless job that doesn't end when you go home at night or on weekends.
papers are graded,lessons are planned,parents are called and now thanks to the internet and online messaging and grading reports, parents can contact teachers 24/7.
yes, some districts in New York pay very well,too well, but for most teachers, they are getting just enough and job security is non existent....
I was a teacher in the public school system for 8 years and then moved into the private school sector. I moved from the public system because it was the right opportunity that I couldn't pass up, and it was a hard decision. But technically I am not retired, and will receive a rather small pension when I do officially retire from the school system, and I mean small.
The public schools were the hardest years of my teaching career, and it wasn't because of the administration or school system. I take my hat off to the tireless, hard work that teachers give to their students and their classrooms. They are some of the most dedicated people I've ever met. We take more than work home, we worry about the kids that have a hard home life, etc. I will always stand up for teacher's rights.
(I'm not trying to pick on you, really I'm not, but your comments follow the same mistaken reasoning that I hear from the teachers here)
Since when is it the teachers right to force another teacher into a layoff situation? Since when is it considered teachers rights to demand higher taxes from the families they serve only so they, the teachers, don't have to contribute to their pensions and health benefits - like the families they serve?
Just because a mistake was made in the past doesn't mean we have to continue making the same mistakes for the rest of our lives. We're supposed to learn from our mistakes in order to improve our lives and the lives of others around us.
Well, not to pick on you either, but you're assuming that teachers only bargain for money. They don't. They bargain also for smaller class sizes so they can spend more time on each student. Smaller class sizes means more teachers which means more money, but not more per teacher. (Do the math.)
The teachers (and firefighters and police, don't forget them!) aren't the ones forcing the crisis. It's the governor. The public employees have already agreed to all financial concessions. The governor wants their bargaining rights, too.
So in order not to save money but to bust the unions, the governor is forcing the crisis. That's the important part that nobody seems to be getting: the unions agreed to all the financial concessions. The Gov and his GOP supporters are trying to take away even more than what they need to balance the budget (to make up for the shortfall caused by the Gov.'s tax breaks to big corporations and GOP cronies, by the way), and the unions are objecting to the revocation of their collective bargaining rights (that is, their entire raison d'etre).
What I don't understand is how someone can do the math yet not understand the consequences of their reasoning.
The only issues brought up regarding collective bargaining have been the contributions to teacher pensions and health insurance benefits. Neither of these "bargains" affect class size or a persons ability to do their job properly. (which is what the teachers are now claiming as teh reason for their protest - why the sudden change in 'reasons' for their protest??)
Police, firefighters, and EMT workers are unaffected by this bill! (they were at the protest in support of the teachers)
The governor has a job to do. Balance the budget. He came up with a plan and proposed it. The DEMs ran away from doing their part of the job. Teachers protested rather than doing their job. And you want everyone to believe the governor is guilty of forcing a crisis?
Where have you been since 2008? Do you not remember the financial crisis the world has been in ever since? How can you possibly say that because the governor wants to protect future taxpayers from a repeat performance, of 2008, that he is the cause of the financial mess he was elected to deal with? Get a grip on reality, please!
The reality is that Governor Walker will not take calls from constituents or Democratic state legislators, but he will take one from David Koch and talk at length about the "negotiations."
Why is that, do you think?
Wasn't there a post here that said Walker was selling state assets to Koch? If so why wouldn't he take their call? And why wouldn't he talk about the issues of the day we're all talking about? You libs just love distracting from the truth public service unions is corruption its using taxpayers money to support a political party in many cases against the will of union members and certainly without consent of the employers, tax payers!
lol It's not up to me to second-guess the governors intentions and motives. It's up to me to understand what he proposes along with reasons given, and to determine for myself if I agree with his propositions. If I don't, I'll remember come election day. If he does anything illegal, other actions would obviously need to be taken.
Interesting. I thought you're the one who has been so adamant that it is not the Governor's intent to bust the union but to fix the budget problems in Wisconsin.
yeah, that's right. I've reported what I've heard from GOV Walker, not what the teachers want me to believe. I've also reported what the teachers have said. There is an obvious difference between the two - GOV Walker has maintained his stance and doesn't use anger to get his point across. The teachers try to cover up their true intentions/motives by claiming they're only there (protesting) out of concern for their students. I don't believe the teachers. GOV Walker has given me no reason to not believe him. (time will tell if I'm mistaken about the governor. lol)
So, he won't compromise one iota, even though the unions have conceded on everything except relinquishing their right to collectively bargain. One side has negotiated in good faith by making concessions that would balance the budget while Governor Walker stubbornly refuses to budge from his original position, even to the point of rejecting a Republican-backed compromise of suspending collective bargaining rights for two years.
Then, you are presented with evidence that Governor Walker speaks in great detail to David Koch, who is not even a resident of Wisconson, about the problems in his state while not fielding calls from his own legislators.
After all that, you choose to believe Walker's intentions over the teachers.
I'm sorry, I just cannot see the logic in that.
In order to get anywhere one must understand why Gov Walker wants to end collective bargaining rights for pensions & health insurance benefits. He wants to end CBR so that in a year or two, when the unions renegotiate the contract, they don't put the state right back to where they are now. nuff said.
I still haven't heard enough about the "Koch" phone call to make a decision. I don't know why the gov chose to talk to "him" rather than the DEMs (I'm guessing its because he wants the DEMs to come back to work, and he'll talk to them when they do come to work) and, Quite honestly, that isn't my problem - because its been reported that Gov Walker said the same in private as hes said in public. Therefore, no issue for me.
At least the Gov hasn't changed his argument on a daily basis, like the teachers have.
Ah, I would have joined your fan club again, if I could. Woman who thinks for herself is a tresure
Toward the end of the call, the prankster tells Walker: "Once you crush these bastards, I'll fly you out to Cali and really show you a good time."
Walker replies on the recording: "All right, that would be outstanding."
Read the entire transcript or listen to the audio, and ask yourself why Walker would voluntarily supply so much information, with very little prompting, to a billionaire who doesn't even live in Wisconsin, about a subject that Koch should really have no say in whatsoever.
No doubt the phone call was damaging....but, honestly, Koch brothers contributed to his campaign. The least he could do was talk with one of them when they called and be genial about it. Dontcha think? (that's as far as I'm willing to go with it at this time - because his comments were damaging, to say the least)
Just look at his biggest campaign contributors to see what his agenda is. The middle class will continue to disappear.
I taught 22 years, over half of those years in an inner-city public school where I began and ended my teaching career. I loved my kids, and I loved my work.
I hate people assuming I was paid royal salaries - I never was. Even with advanced grad school, my salary never topped 32K. Never. I routinely worked summer and after-school jobs as well as tutoring to earn the cash for the nice things that you learn to appreciate at university but can't afford as a public school teacher - tickets to the live theatre, for example, or a home of your own and maybe a newer used car every four or five years. Hardly lavish!
Stressful? Lord yes. Teachers are on everyone's firing line - the students, their parents, the administration, the central office, you name it.
Teachers are the universal scapegoat. Student achievement low? Lack of teacher effort. Discipline problems? Teacher incompetence. Students bored? Poor teaching technique. Concept coverage off the district schedule? Ineffective planning and execution of lessons. You name it, it's the teacher's fault.
Oh, and teacher dissatisfaction? Why, that's because teachers are only interested in one thing: Money!
Of course: because only the scandalously high salaries and benefits would entice a well-educated woman like myself to spend years with often-surly teens in an effort to teach them information and skills that would enable them get out of the projects, striving to convince them that I was genuinely interested in their welfare and growth, that unlike so many of the adults in their lives - I could be trusted.
I am not the only teacher who chose the profession from concern, caring, and a deep faith in the power of education to transform lives; I am like the vast majority of teachers. None of us are stupid enough to think that salaries and the few enough perks we get make it worthwhile to suffer the abuse heaped on us by students, parents, administrators, and the media. They don't.
Once, a dad happened into my classroom unexpectedly. Hidden from the students by a large bookcase I had behind the rows, he observed class for ten minutes before he came around to call for his son. I followed them to the hall, where he shook my hand. "I wouldn't have your job for anything," he laughed. I believed him. I think he speaks for most of our critics.
See, that's the crazy thing about this. I think you're right - the teachers have become the scapegoats. I think the teachers ought to be paid better than the senators who act like children and run away from a tough decision. Teacher salaries aren't equal across state lines - teachers here earn an average of $52,000/yr which is well above the cost of living of $35,000/yr.
Putting pay aside, however, I still think benefit contribution doesn't require constant negotiation.
We also forget that not only teachers, but also police and firefighters, are going to get the shaft because of this crisis (that the Governor created).
Why don't you talk about why democrats really hate this bill... because it would mean the end of their party! Their primary way of funding is through confiscation of wealth from union members... without the unions democrats would have a hard time raising money. They would have to resort to a platform of principles that Americans agree with!! OMG!! They would turn into republicans!! Lol
We all know how democrats are pro choice... at least when it comes to murder... but when it comes to union membership and paying dues... nope no choice there its mandatory and the dues collected are used to support democrats even if the members are republicans! Yes that's the democrats view of freedom and supporting the working class and free choice!
You've just explained why Republicans want to destroy unions in your first paragraph.
The rest of your post is just unrelated drivel.
> Why don't you talk about why democrats really hate this bill...
> because it would mean the end of their party!
I respect your passion, lady_love158, but I really do think you are wrong about that.
In fact, I believe that Scott Walker simply miscalculated how strong support for unions is among teachers, firefighters, and other state employees in his state and I think that Walker's misstep will hurt the Republican Party in Wisconsin and nationally.
People support less spending, it seems. Most, however, apparently do not buy Walker's argument that an end to collective bargaining is tied to that. Not in the polls I have seen, anyway.
Maybe you are seeing different data, though.
I don't think we Democrats are going away any time soon.
Anyway, I guess we'll see in the next few weeks how this all plays out.
Personally I think the teachers union should be busted up, as well as the useless and incredibly expensive departments of education, federal and state.
The control of our children’s education should be kept at the local level where parents make the decisions. In today’s schools political correctness has run amok and there is too much agenda driven curriculum.
Consider this, the same unions are protecting the idiot you dealt with at the DMV.
It shocks me that anyone would think unions are a bad thing. Yes, unions are not a perfect system and there are corrupt or lazy unions out there that aren't doing what they should be doing, which is helping employees.
But do you really think we'd have the 9-5 workday without unions? Minimum wage? Sick pay? All of it was petitioned and campaigned for by unions. Corporations do not care about you or your rights: they would bleed you dry and work you 24/7 for nothing if they could. Unions are what stop them. We must support unions for the sake of people's rights.
Newsflash!! The government isn't a corporation! Im not against unions in the private sector but I don't think they should be mandatory fir a job.
I agree with you, dingdondingdon.
Even people who oppose unions don't mind benefiting from them, it seems.
I have never had a 9-5 work day. In fact the most productive people in America do not work 9-5 not do they work 40 hours a week. The minimum wage has pushed unemployment up for the very people it is purported to help and has since its inception in 1947. Labor unions also like to claim the end of child labor but child labor had already fallen into disfavor and begun to disappear before the rise of the union movement in America.
If you feel you haven't heard enough about the call and Governor Walker's comments, here is a link to the transcript.
This is what was said -- no political spin, no conjecture as to what it means. The straight dope.*
http://host.madison.com/wsj/article_531 … 002e0.html
*Interpret as you will.
The Walker phoney phonecall is being looked at by watchdog groups and he may be in a bit of trouble.
"In a call with who he thought to be billionaire political donor David Koch, Gov. Walker may have broken campaign finance and ethics laws," said David Donnelly, national campaigns director for Public Campaign Action Fund. "If he did, he should resign."
http://billionaires.forbes.com/article/ … onaire%27s
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