Is It Possible?

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   Cagsilposted 12 years ago

   Hey Hubbers,
   
   I was doing my every day work a little while ago and a thought crossed my mind. I'm posting this thread and won't be back to it for a little while because of said work I was doing, which I'm returning to doing.
   
   However...is it possible(mentally) to hold a belief which is believed true more than one believes in themselves?
   
   Just a thought to see what people say about it.

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      Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      An interesting question. I'd have to say that yes, it probably is.

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         Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Okay Jeff, would it make sense though?

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            Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well, people often pray for strength, relying on divine help, with the sincere belief that they won't be able to get through whatever it is they're dealing with without divine help.
            
            Are they right? Who knows?

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               Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               And, that didn't answer my question.

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                  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Well, if they're wrong, it doesn't. If they're right, it does.

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                     Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     I'm not sure the outcome matters.
                     
                     I am trying to figure out if a person believes something is true, then can they put more enforcement behind such a belief more than they can believe in themselves.
                     
                     If a person forms a belief, then believes it is true, don't they have to believe in themselves first and foremost, before said belief could be formed?
                     
                     I believe in myself. I know the belief is valid and logical. I also know my capabilities and limitations, which is what allows me to have a belief in myself.
                     
                     I don't believe things more than I believe in myself. It just doesn't make sense to do so.

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                        Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Oh, I wasn't talking about the outcome.
                        
                        I was talking about if they're right that a higher power exists, and that said power actually does assist them in their efforts.
                        
                        We can't know if the higher power exists (at least, with our current level of tech), so we just have to guess if their belief is rational or not.

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                           Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Jeff, what does right and wrong have to do with this topic? I don't see how right or wrong factor in.
                           
                           No offense, but it doesn't seem like you read my last post, which you quoted.
                           
                           It doesn't make sense that someone could believe something true more than they can believe in themselves.
                           
                           To believe in yourself 100% without doubt is virtually and most likely not possible. But, to believe something 100% true is against human nature because human nature is fallible, has flaws.
                           
                           Aside from the fact that no one knows everything there is to know because not everything is known, nor will humans ever learn everything there is to know.
                           
                           All humans do is improve upon efficiency of what is already known, which leads to new discoveries.

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                              Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              "t doesn't make sense that someone could believe something true more than they can believe in themselves."
                              
                              AHA! I see the problem: I misunderstood the question.
                              
                              You're using "believe in oneself" to mean "believe in the existence of oneself," whereas I was using it to mean "believe in one's own abilities and talents."
                              
                              So, to answer the question you were actually asking: No. I think one has to accept one's own existence before one can postulate on the existence of other entities.

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                                 Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Okay. Thank you for your patience.

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      professorcobanposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I suppose that it is possible for someone to believe that they do not exist, at least on a conscious level. However, subconsciously, they must believe that they exist. A requisite for belief is sentience, and a requisite for sentience is existence, therefore it is not possible to believe in anything if one does not exist. However, you were talking about gradation. If one takes from Renee Descartes Meditations on First Philosophy, perhaps the only thing possible for someone to prove to themselves is that they exist. Looking at it this way, one would have to believe in themselves more than they believe in anything else, simply because they could logically show that everything else is a figment of their imagination and does not exist.

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         professorcobanposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         However, Martin Buber's Ich und Du describes a process by which believing in something makes it exist, in a way. In this instance, belief is the force which sustains existence. If one were to believe something exists and not believe they exist themselves, perhaps the sustained existence levels vary enough that they exist less than whatever it is that they believe exists, regardless of whether or not it actually does.

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         Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Okay, I followed the above, but don't agree.
         I find this statement filled with so much ambiguity it's not even funny.

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      f_hruzposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If all life on earth is a product of nature, the belief in the enormous forces of nature are being demonstrated continuously, in contrast to ones own much more limited resources to draw on these natural forces as an individual. The scientific community, however reinforces the idea that human intelligence is of a natural source far greater than our own even if we each had the ingenuity of Albert Einstein ... so it's quite easy to hold a belief in the reality of nature as being much greater and longer lasting than ones belief in oneself which can only be a much smaller and more temporal reflection of the whole natural reality ...

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         Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Interesting statement.

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   knolyourselfposted 12 years ago

   ... I deny God ... if God denies me, wherein I have to believe in God, but in the process must believe  my natural self is wrong.

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      Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I'm not sure what you're getting at.

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   prettydarkhorseposted 12 years ago

   Hi Ray. Could be belief in some kind of magic or imaginary things.

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      Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Explain PDH, if you don't mind.

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         prettydarkhorseposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         When I was a kid, usually on the first day of school my mother always put a some kind of pin which is hidden inside my skirt. She said it will give me some kind of wisdom. She also believes in many ceremonies and practices that will keep us safe, she always put some food in the rice field everyday for the spirits so that they will guard us and give us good health. My mother is a Catholic, but my grandparents have no religion and they are Pagans.

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            Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Okay PDH. Thank you for the explanation.

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   knolyourselfposted 12 years ago

   Does not the patriot who dies for country in foreign adventures, believe in propaganda more than themselves? Does it take a true self to believe a lie?
   Self is body and or mind. "I don't know but I been told."

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   kessposted 12 years ago

   Your belief makes you, so you cannot be more than neither less than what you believe.
   
   A man cannot adequately convey what he believes in words, they are merely images of his belief. The totality of his belief is only seen in his Life or his death.

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