Do Atheism & Religions have similar belief ?
What s the difference between nature and God in the first place.
My friend the universe is more alive than any human,We are ignorant and feel its dead due to our egos.
This is an interesting approach and I am slowly coming to the conclusion that people who believe in a god just cannot grasp the principal that it is possible not to believe in something, therefore anyone who does not believe in god actually has "faith," and "believes" there is no god - which is actually just another form of religion.
Presumably because that is how you came to your conclusion that there is a god, therefore that must be how everyone else decides on something.
Does it take faith to say, "There is no Santa Claus."? or "There is no Easter Bunny."?
I will try and put it in perspective:
Let us say, I come from a place and a culture that does not have a god worship system in place. I have never even heard of the concept of a god. The scientific explanation of how the universe came about and how the planet evolved are accepted as the correct facts and no one is suggesting there was a personality in charge of this.
Does that mean I have faith that there is no god?
When there are 2 opposing views such as this, and no physical evidence, the onus is on you to prove there is something.
I can easily prove there is no god. Do you see any proof for a god (And you can't include bats as proof) ? No proof. Ergo, no god. Simple.
But that will not make any difference to you because you have decided there is a god and it does not matter how many times it is proven false - you will continue to believe.
I on the other hand will start believing immediately of you show me some proof. I rather like the Norse, ancient Greek and American Indian versions best so proof of one of those would be great.
We are both atheists. I just believe in one less god than you doWell said the tangible proof doesnt exist for either.
You write very well.
From Atheism Rules!
As it would appear you do not understand what atheism means
My pleasure.The only way we are divided on the young/old earth question is by people who insist it is young despite proof to the contrary
Believing in some thing you cannot prove is different to believing in something which has proof to the contrary
Although you could argue that a lack of proof is, in fact, proof to the contrary......
No - I wanted to prove that being religious makes you no more significant that any one else
I am as significant as a grain of sand on a beach
I was not aware there was a problem with atheism. I tried real hard to open the door, only to discover there was no door. And I have said on many occasions that if I am shown proof of a god, I will start believing immediately.
Still waiting..........
And if you think not believing in something there is no evidence for is biased, how do you think believing in a god that there is absolutely no proof for looks?
That is the problem with religion - close minded, no possibility of any other answers to your questions. Just look at the way Mo talks to people - see how offensive that is and how it absolutely fails to show any respect for the other person? That is one of the reasons I believe he is wrong. Any one with an ego that size who claims enlightenment treating people the way he does. How can that be correct?Sorry but I d not have respect for atheists, they have very little knowledge but will shout a lot
Enlightened?
of course you do not have any respect for atheists. They do not agree with you, therefore not worthy of respect.
You have consistently insulted me and demonstrated a complete ignorance of how to conduct yourself. I have never shouted at anyone here - not even you, when you were attacking me while I was trying to help you. But - because I do not agree with your mumbo jumbo, you think I have very little knowledge lol. I have one word for you:
Hubris.
Look it up in a dictionary.Happy Birthday MARK .
no arguing with you today-enjoy your day,its yours Ok lets continue.Personal God for me would be say I take him for my best friend,My brother,father or mother.All or any is fine.
God is the Light.Yes the interest is there a very deep one.God is the supersoul and you are the soul .Both are incomplete without the other.I respect the God in you more than you do simply because I know.
Interesting. I assume you have what? Taken a poll and the 0.01% have said this ?
As a matter of fact, this was a quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica.
But I am sure you know better.
Perhaps you too think atheism is a belief system?
We really believe in god - just a little bit......
LOL As if anybody has any doubts about his enlightenment by now
Its a more intelligent and open minded approach than atheiim.I dont know is speaking the truth.
I agree this topic is endless and debatable .There are two sides to a coin.
Now you are telling me what I "believe."
You see what I mean? Because you have used faith to determine your beliefs, you cannot see what I am saying.
How can I "believe" and have "faith" that something does not exist?
Do you "believe" that Santa Claus does not exist? Are all your decisions based solely on faith?
I have already proved god does not exist. A complete lack of evidence does it for me every time.
The onus is on youThanks. I had a great day. Went on on a boat and drank champagne all day long then had a fantastic meal with friends. Indian food, cooked by another friend who is teaching me how to cook genuine Indian recipes. Awesome
Back to the discussion.
The answer you have given about a personal god is surprisingly close to some of my own reasoning. In my darkest days I often wished I could persuade myself to believe in a personal god who was interested in the specifics of my life. Ha! This is simply not the case, and it is too much of a stretch to think it is so. And for you also, by the sound of it.
So, I will agree that the lack of proof for something does not automatically discount it's existence, . I would also say that lack of evidence for something does not necessarily mean it's existence is just as likely as it's non-existence. In this case, there are other things to take into consideration.
I have to also take into account my own personal observations and reasoning before I can decide whether there is a personal god or not.
One of the questions I always ask myself, whether or not I am considering this question or any other is, "Does that make any sense to me?"
A few examples can be - Does it make any sense to me that:
I can run my car on water
I can make a huge income working from home 2 days a week.
If I buy this computer program and give $1000 to a forex broker I will make $100s a day.
If I open my heart to Jesus Christ, I will live forever.
If I die killing christian infidels I will go to heaven where there will be 72 virgins waiting for me to have my way with them.
If we drill holes in the Alaskan Wildlife refuge, this will mean we stop sending money to terrorists who will blow up my country because they hate me.
If I sign up for a biometric ID card and cover my country in CCTV cameras this will protect me from evil-doers.
There is no such thing as global warming and the ice caps melt every few years or so and this is the natural way of things.
I was created in the image of god, and this god is interested in what I do, and he secretly gave instructions to selected people who were then charged with telling this story in such a confusing way that it is impossible to make any sense out of the story without having faith. And these people's main goal over the centuries has been to collect money, build edifices in honor of this god and start wars in his name to prove the superiority of this god and these ideals just happen to exactly match those of the ruling political and economic class.
So this is where I must look to my own experiences and observations and then make a valued judgment as to whether it makes any sense to me.
As a younger man and interested in these things, I noticed that my car or motorcycle seemed to run slightly better on cold, misty mornings and I then experimented with adding a wet air filter instead of a dry one and adjusted the air/fuel mixture (pre-fuel injection) to see what worked best.
And I discovered that a lean mixture with a small amount of misted water vapor works best. But - there are many other variables, and if you lean it off too much or add a tad too much water mist, your engine will seize, and you will end up skidding down the road on your ass and all but destroy your favorite bike
So, I trust the engine makers to have done this research and am pretty certain that I cannot buy a $100 device that will make my car run better by using water4gas I do not know for 100% certain, because I have not paid the money and tried the device myself, but I am happy with my judgment.
And so on with the other examples. I have made my own observations and can come to a valued judgment as to whether they are likely or not.
I am pretty sure covering my country in CCTV cameras and introducing mandatory biometric ID cards will not protect me from evil doers; I am pretty sure that the dwindling polar bear numbers and the melting ice caps are not a natural concurrence that will magically repair itself; I am pretty sure that accepting Jesus Christ as my personal savior will not guarantee me a place in heaven and I know that the only people who will benefit from drilling Alaska in to oblivion will be the oil companies and their lackeys; and I also know damn well that there is no easy way to make money unless you are very, very lucky, which I am not.
There are of course things that I do not have enough research or observations to be able to make a valued judgment, but I am lucky enough to have enough friends around the world that there is usually some one I trust to ask what they think and if I need a new rechargeable power drill or want to know where to buy incoming links to my websites, or how best to cook a lobster, etc etc, I can probably get an answer I will trust, secure in the knowledge that they have done the research and observation.
Which brings me to the personal god.
Using my own personal observations and research, which has been extensive, I have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a personal god.
It makes no sense at all.
It does not fit in with my understanding of the way the universe works. There is a cyclical nature to the universe that means it is vital that some things die to allow other things to grow, and I have seen with my own eyes the consequences when that is interfered with. How can it possibly make sense that the "real" life we are going to live is after death and we can live forever?
The only people who can believe this must be very, very desperate people - or have an agenda.
It certainly hasn't helped that most of the religious people who believe in this personal god have obvious financial or political motives attached to their belief system, and it is fair to say that these people have helped me in coming to my decision.
Does it really make sense to you that you were created by an intelligent being for a reason?
And some other person know this reason?
And for any one interested in refuting what I am saying, this is about a personal god with a personality and intelligence.Good observations Mark.
lol
Interesting. Yes, I jumped to conclusions about your belief because you are telling me what I believe and what atheism is as it applies to me. My apologies for that. "Atheist" is the best label I can come up with - not perfect, but it will suffice.
I will now make a statement:
I do not believe in god.
One of the main reasons I do not believe in god is the complete lack of evidence for one. This is a reasonable position to take as far as I am concerned. It makes sense to my little brain.
And the only reason I need to say"I do not believe in god" is in response to some one saying, "There is a god." If no one says this, I do not need to say it. It is moot.
Lets take it from there.
As for most decisions being based on faith, I am not sure how you arrive at this conclusion. Perhaps you could give me a few examples in every day life. I make decisions all day long, and much of my decision-making is based on past experience and knowledge, whether gained myself, or second hand. In fact I am having difficulty coming up with a decision I have made based on faith alone, but I am open to listening to the argument.I don't see how this changes my position. And there is a great deal of difference here. There was evidence that bacteria existed, some one asked the question, investigations were made and when the microscope was invented, a final conclusion was drawn. i.e. bacteria exists and we can now see them with a microscope. The question was asked well before the discovery and it took a scientific advancement to be able to prove they exist.
I have been asked the same question. "Do you believe in god?" Investigations were made, and a conclusion was drawn. i.e. there is no god.
Any time any one wants to provide me with some evidence, I will change my tune.
I also like an interesting argument. I am boredYou mentioned earlier that there is a force which no scientific instrument can capture.
You do agree that there is a very superior intelligence at work in the cosmos.Things like planets are moving with too much precision, also science today says that there is order in what seeems like chaos.If you look in any direction big or small you will see the evidence of God or a higher mindboggling intelligence at work.That is if you want to see .For it to be anything other than an all-knowing god might mean man just ain't as smart as he thinks he is, and, well, that's powerful unsavory fer some.
This is what many masters have said drop the ego,man is nothing compared to the universe where intelligence goes.This universe is as alive as you and me and you able to come into contact with the source,God.This happen via meditation,one pointed concentration.I cannot show you God,you have to see him for yourself. This is what is called awakening.Man is in a trance,sleep like state and must awaken.Isnt revolution,rotation of this planet complicated.Can any man fathom the thoughts of creating such gigantic spheres and then spinning them at such incredible speeds.Its how you see,loook at things,either you can look at it as mundane or divine.
No, I think I see your point completely.
I disagree with it though, because you are suggesting that lack of evidence for something is not proof that it does not exist. You seem to be saying that lack of evidence for something means there is a 50/50 chance that the something exists.
You also need to take into account the fact that well before bacteria was discovered, people were experimenting with ways to ensure diseases did not spread: doctors were washing their hands before and after seeing patients, ships that carried a disease were quarantined and not allowed to dock in ports, etc etc. There was evidence that there were small, invisible organisms that carried disease - we just could not see them or give them a name until after the invention of the microscope. At the time, I would like to bet there were a lot of naysayers saying, "It is the hand of god. There is no such thing as a tiny little, invisible organism carrying diseases. Repent and ye shall be saved."
Or are you trying to make some other point and I have missed it?
In which case, the likelihood of Santa Claus and the Flying Spaghetti monster existing are just as high as god existing?
As for casting a fog of false erudition.......
Ah well this is what confused me. When you said:
I took that to mean that something that has no evidence for it is just as likely to exist or not - 50/50 chance.
Sorry - what does this mean in that case?
I am not drunk either, but it is my birthday tomorrow so perhaps then?
I agree - let us not go down that road. As far as I am concerned, we are sharing the same reality and I am prepared to accept that you exist in mine and I in yours.
Yes, but it was a belief based on observations and measurements that they were later able to prove when the technology became available. It was not a "Well, I can't think of anything better so this must be it," belief.
This is where we digress. The doctors were seeing something happening, and postulated reasons why that may happen and experimented until they tied it down. It took them a while, but they got there eventually.
This is actually not an unreasonable conclusion to jump to. Rational even. I could have come to this same conclusion myself. I have no problem with this. What I do have a problem with is when some one tries to "prove," this by saying things like, "Well dolphins could not have evolved, therefore they were created by god, therefore there is no such thing as evolution, therefore my book is correct." And want to teach this to our children.
I also have a problem when they tell me that they know what this god's purpose is and if I follow their rules and (fill in whichever religious doctrine you wish) I will go to heaven. And the know this is true. For sure, no possibility of a mistake, this is how it is. And they start wars based on spreading this word and persecute people who do not believe and go to great lengths to indoctrinate people into whichever cult they represent.
At some point one has to take responsibility for one's beliefs and ask one self whether or not they make any sense.
So, let's for a moment look at the two possibilities here:
1. The universe was created by a personal god who takes a direct interest in the affairs of men and has a plan in mind which involves following a set of rules which will insure life after death. We will live forever if we follow those rules.
2. It wasn't. The universe came about naturally and the idea that we can live forever is wrong.
There is no evidence for the former.
Yet according to your idea that in the absence of evidence, either one is just as likely as the other.
This makes no sense to me. Therefore, based on the fact that there is no evidence for the first, and my own observations, where I see an underlying cycle of life and death, it is reasonable for me to decide that there is not a god controlling events.
Thanks.
I will be out on a boat in the med and start drinking around 11.30 GMT +1 so any time after that will be fine. Should stop around 2.00 GMT +1 on the 31st.
Good argument/discussion though.
Mo is generally not worth responding to. He will end up telling you how stupid you are for not agreeing with his masterful assessments.
Anyway, back to the meat of the matter:
We seem to be disagreeing on two major points here. Whether or not there are more than 2 options and whether or not a lack of evidence is proof enough to take the contrary position?
You are taking the position that just because there is no evidence for something, that does not mean it does not exist, and to a certain extent, I can see that. But - and it is a big but - that does not automatically mean it does exist.
OK, the bacteria did turn out to exist, and I appreciate what you are saying. Just because it was not proven earlier, it was a "belief," that became fact.
So you are an agnostic.
You are saying, "I have no evidence either way, therefore I choose to take no position until I have some evidence."
Which is where I was for a long time.
But then I decided to make a decision. Is there a god or not?
And this is the duality I see. Only 2 options. Is there a god?
Yes, or No?
One of the things that has persuaded me there is not a god is the lack of evidence for one. Especially a god with a personalty.
But there is more. Interested?
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
0As my position may be deemed stupid or ignorant. I chose that there is a God because I don't have an external battery.
and the Sun doesn't count, neither does the Earth, I can't even say that because there is a Universe, I have life.
Something made us start ticking. A stramatolite didn't just start working, gravity didn't come from nothing, and the Sun got its energy from something else.
The big bang has a force, and a singularity didn't come out of nothing. A dead tree can come back to life after 2000 years and the Earths placement wasn't at random (or at least that is how I feel).
The Earth is only 4.5 billion years old, and the Universe only 15 billion years old. So life existed here for a long time and in a short time, our life time, we have somehow managed to use up the majority of our resouces, invent stuff like tv and internet, fly into space, build sky scrapers, dig up our history invent math, that ironically enough manages to work itself out and 1 plus 1 will always be two.
We know there is some order to whatever you want to call life and for whatever reason I cannot get passed the coincedence that is seems like we are here for a reason, and the reason for my own personal satisfaction is to learn and become like God.
Which we do, we make things, destroy thing, we rule things, invent things and we are pretty accurate too. I have said before that my idea of what God actually is isn't really a thing at all but whatever it is, it's what gave us the kick in butt to get going.
Something set us off. I think that is a really good reason to believe that there is a God. We cannot see God for what it actually is but we know it by what was produced. You can call it evolution, that works for me. You cannot see what evolution actually is. I mean you don't see some tiny invisable little bubble floating around magically changing things, but we know it exist because we can see it working through the things it produces.
I mean, we wont live long enough to watch the final outcome, but we know it has been going on. So what is wrong with that? Of course my possition is that people, if they chose to accept it, are very special. Sure not any more signifant than a grain of sand on the beach, but in some way we are special because a grain of sand doesn't look at something and say it is beautiful or ugly and it doesn't have eyes. Which is another thing I cannot wrap my head around. Why everything that can see, all have eyes and all of which have the same characteristic features. Like a somewhat round slot in the head. LOL. or else where...
Lala dee lala da, life sucks but at least we get to have one and that means something. I am never absolutly certain why it should mean so much but hell, we got life once so I don't see why it is impossible to have it again.
Maybe a resurection from the dead does not literally mean that we will up and crawl out of our graves and stuff, or even reincarnation, but "life" the spirit of life will sprout again. We don't have to know if it is true or not, but our own history is proof enough that it will happen again.
You never know in another billion years, we could have colonized the entire Univrse and every planet and life will rule the entire Heavens. We don't know that someone will not plant a seed on some desolate planet and the seed will miraculously sprout.
We don't know that life is not happening in other galexies cause we can't see them or reach them or them us, and who says we aren't the first of the intellegent kind to exist and that we are not the begining?
To me, it is enough to want to at least try to do what is right so that we can keep going and the human seed continues on to see what we can do with what was given to us...the Universe and all. Mo - once again you are putting words in my mouth.
I have never once said the Universe is dead. It is very much alive and I am very aware of my part in it.
I am not angry. You have consistently insulted me time and time again because I do not share your beliefs and I have refrained from attacking you back other than to poke fun at your claims of enlightenment and your poetry rankings.
Hard not to when you are shoving them down everyone's throat every chance you get.
But you are apparently not intelligent enough to understand that there is a huge difference between "God," and "religion" lol
Work it out.More like the sea and an impressionist's painting of the sea.
lolo
You wouldn't happen to be a christian would you?
The christian's concept of god is such that they live in fear.
Unless they have accepted JC as their personal saviour.
In which case, they will not burn in hell fire for all eternity
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