New Deal or WWII--which ended the Great Depression for the US?
Umm, you are definitely getting better
And yes, I think New deal did not do any good to American economy, and any recovery that finally happened was despite of it, not because...- Leta Sposted 16 years ago
0Forgive me,
, Misha, but I just love it when foreigners have such strong opinions one way or another on our history!
I've got to say, I wrote a book detailing aspects of the great depression and so did a lot of research on the topic and I don't feel I could make an educated enough argument here without more concentration on it.
That's the thing about politics--people so much think it is something of a sport--and one of opinion at that. I think the more you actually know about or have studied something, the less likely you are to jump in showing your political cards, just because you are a 'conservative' or a 'liberal' or this ism or that ism...Lita this is perfectly said. Thank you.
Bill and I were just saying last night how politics (and most issues, actually) have become this blood sport where everyone just whips out their pre-fab opinions like weapons and starts hacking at what they perceive to be the opposite side. Every argument has become a dance of extreme opposition, with no tolerance for complexity or the real possibility that the final explanation is still out of reach. I find that exhausting and unproductive. But you said it best.
What concerns me about our current situation is that, whether it was the New Deal or the War that ended Great Depression I, it was manufacturing jobs that ended it.Those jobs created a prosperous middle class that then went out and spent money and created even more jobs. Now our manufacturing base is gone and what little remains is critically ill. So where is our current recovery supposed to come from? I don't have an answer, I'm just asking the question. We currently produce little of value in the U.S. We've been inventing money--just pulling it out of our butts. I don't see how this can continue and I don't (right now) see how it's going to get better. I wish I COULD see a light at the end of the tunnel--but it would probably just be an oncoming train. LOL!
I guess what I'm saying is, the answer to the question of New Deal versus the War doesn't really apply to our situation today, it's just a game of ping pong for idealogues.
I hope so too, but there are too many vested interests in the continuing use of oil.
did you know for instance that the two biggest shareholders of Citigroup are the Abu Dhabi government and the Saudi Royal family? "
And when Citi was given $20 billion of US taxpayers funds, the first thing they did is "invest" $8 billion of it in Dubai's government infrastructure works.....I did not know that, but can't say it surprises me in the least. ~sighs~
We are so screwed. On the upside, I think a lot of people are waking up to that fact, but whether a bunch of pissed-off individuals are enough to overcome the entrenched special interests in Washington... who knows? Probably not likely. I do think Obama is more aware than many politicians of the magnitude of what has to be done, but he's still a politician and whether he has the guts (or the political capital) to actually pull it off remains to be seen. I expect to be disappointed, but do not expect, at least, to be stuck in the state of perpetual outrage I've lived in for the last eight years.
Thank you Pam *sarcasm smiley*
Frankly you are one of the last I would expect such kind of reaction to my words.
Just wanted to remind you American citizens that when some words cause such an acute reaction, they usually touch on beliefs that do not correlate to reality.
I think I am done with this thread, see you guys on other ones.
Happy New Year everybodyWow, that comment wasn't directed at you personally Misha, I was just agreeing that we don't really have real discussion in this country anymore. I apologize it sounded like I was attacking you. I didn't mean it like that. I really do feel like people in general just take sides and don't listen to each other. But I didn't mean Misha is the problem!
LOL Lita, I always forgive pretty women
And this is pure economics I am talking here. And what makes you thinking I did not do any research on the subject? I usually don't state my opinions on the topics I don't have opinions about- Leta Sposted 16 years ago0
@Nick
I never say my opinions are 'correct.' I don't think I even offered a really stated opinion, lol.
I would say that these matters are complex and not given to ad hoc generalizations in community forums for the purpose of spewing one's political affiliations, ahem...
And also I know how much research went into your last answer, oh, say, on a certain education forum, which on many levels was not 'correct,' so of course I agree with you on your point of devil's advocacy. Spew, spew, spew... I knew it was coming..
Don't take this personally. I just really don't understand how you certain types of (cuz you are) conservatives (American..I should say, too) think. Do you see yourselves as cheerleaders for patriotism or something?
- Leta Sposted 16 years ago0
I never said I was a conservative, Lita. I suppose it wasn't directed at me, but if it was, I'm certainly not. I won't blame churches, but, as I've heard many a minister say, if the people who 'could' step in an aid the less fortunate would, te government would be less liable to do so. I mean, heck, I live at the practically poverty level and money has been very, very tight. It'd be nice for Tom Cruise to give me 20 grand to pay off some debts just so I can breathe easier
Besides, with his wallet, he could do that for many, many people, and never feel it!Tkeeley-
No, I knew you were not a conservative--it was not directed at you. As I recall, you see yourself as something of a libertarian.
I just think, as big as the mechanisms are, and as entwined as our institutions are--the cause of the Great Depression isn't something I wanna speculate on in a few sentences here.
And money is tight on everybody these days--don't feel alone! We're just waiting to win the lottery, lol!I'm probably more socialist anymore than libertarian, although I dislike the government and the free market...perhaps I'm anarchic?? I bet I'm probably more that way than anything else
Maybe we need to go back to nordic tribes or something...like Beowulf. I'd rather be there on some days than here
Don't speculate...it's what keeps me up til 4 AM these days...sigh
- pgrundyposted 16 years ago0
Citi and MBNA, the two top credit card companies in the world, are the devil. I mean, the Antichrist. Seriously, we've got people here worrying about Obama and the mark of the Beast and all that crap, but the real monster is a little piece of plastic that you can have for the cost of your soul and a signature. Rent the movie "Maxed Out" sometime. You'll be horrified, I promise.
MBNA was Bush's largest campaign contributor, and under Bush credit card regulation has been completely gutted. It isn't just cards either--MBNA and Citi between then own most of the PayDay loan shops that cover urban neighborhoods now like leprosy.
This kind of thing used to be illegal. It's a lot more fun though to bash poor people and stupid people and people who made unfortunate choices than it is to acknowledge that the world is being run by demonic overlords.
Americans love to get self-righteous. Until they are in a mess themselves--then we all want help. It's all about personal responsibility until it gets personal. When you can't eat or get cancer and can't pay the bill or the bank comes for your home because you lose YOUR job, then suddenly any helping hand looks good. Until that day, everyone thinks his or her neighbor is an asshole and the cause of their own troubles.
I think it is just going to get freakin' hellish here. - Leta Sposted 16 years ago0
It was my 'foreigners' statement Misha didn't like.
It was a generalization in itself, mea culpa, mea culpa... Come back, St. Misha. Bloody foreigners......
Anyway, I think spending money fixed the last depression, but spending money into this one is going to make it worse, because the problem has come about by lending non-existent money to people who could not pay it back in the first place. Doing more of the same is going to create a bigger problem.
The Treasury has just over committed the first $350 billion bailout money- pgrundyposted 16 years ago0
Kinda pisses me off too
What is going to bite worse is when it doesn't do any good. There are two more asset bubbles that will burst in 2009, both of them potentially bigger than the residential housing bubble.
This would be the private equity bubble and the commercial property bubble.
Look 'em up on google - not pretty reading......
I think the UK is in even worse condition than the US. As much as 20% of Great Britain PLC's GDP came from the financial services industry. We don't make a damn thing any more and the entire country works in the services industries. So we are looking at a potential 20% decline in GDP. No more brand new nukular warships
If it is too hard for you here is the link -
Everything you always wanted to know but were too stupid to find out
Or you can read what I have written -
http://blog.luxuryproperty.com/luxury-r … tion-2009/
http://markpknowles.com/random-hot-post … p-is-this/
http://internationalpropertyinvestment. … -fall-more
What pisses you off Pam?
You knew it wouldn't work even before it started, I remember discussing this with you
And I agree to that guy you mentioned, giving out money to people wouldn't work either. Even leaving aside the source and real value of that "money", what gonna happen when people spend it, too?
- pgrundyposted 16 years ago0
"What is going to bite worse is when it doesn't do any good. There are two more asset bubbles that will burst in 2009, both of them potentially bigger than the residential housing bubble."
I hate to be cynical, but I don't even think Paulson is trying to fix it at this point--I think he's just covering up bank failures and helping out his friends. Most of the money has been given to banks as "cash infusions" with no requirement that the banks reveal how they used it, and/or was used to broker forced sales of failing banks to other slightly stronger banks. This is what happened to the bank I worked for--they asked for TARP money in November and the Treasury Dept said no because they were about to be seized by FDIC. So instead they gave the TARP money to a regional bank that was slightly stronger on the condition it be used to buy up our bank. They didn't really want our bank, but to get the TARP money they had to agree to that. In January of 2009 when the sale is final, the remaining jobs at the bank where I used to work will likely be eliminated--the other bank has its own corporate HQ, it doesn't need one here.
That's all well and good as damage control, but really it's just spin doctoring. Banks are failing but the Treasury Dept doesn't want a bunch of FDIC seizures on the news. There's no transparency (very little anyway) in how the TARP money has been used. All we know for sure is that it hasn't been used the way they told us they were going to use it.
Beyond that they aren't talking. Which is, you know, FUBAR. - pgrundyposted 16 years ago0
Oh I know. Peak resets should come in December 2009 according to Credit Suisse - and they should know
Still, the commercial mortgage losses will probably outweigh the residential. Odds are it will mean nationalizing all the major UK banks next year.
The commercial developers are already knocking on the White House door asking for a bailout. Unlikely I think - the money will be given to the banks holding the loans instead.
- pgrundyposted 16 years ago0
We are so doomed.
Well, Happy New Year Mark! LOL!
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